School reopening!

[Digby232]

So all plans in place to open schools. Already a right fuck up. 2 very large community schools in my area. No one on site before 08.30 and then staggered arrival time till 08.40 and advising not to use public transport. So a staggered time of 10 mins to let thousands of kids in. If you got P.E must wear your kit in and keep it on all day! Very hygienic if you got it first lesson and happened to break sweat. Then can borrow no equipment whatsoever so forget your pen can do no writing! Thousands not taking a pen to school then. Then we have social distancing at bus stops but on bus all huddled together then they want social distancing on exiting bus! List goes on. They’ve only had 6 months to work all this out. Just imagine the traffic around schools all dropping off kids and all in same 10 minute window! What z complete and utter bunch of wankers working out these rules!

[Strawberry]

So all plans in place to open schools. Already a right fuck up. 2 very large community schools in my area. No one on site before 08.30 and then staggered arrival time till 08.40 and advising not to use public transport. So a staggered time of 10 mins to let thousands of kids in. If you got P.E must wear your kit in and keep it on all day! Very hygienic if you got it first lesson and happened to break sweat. Then can borrow no equipment whatsoever so forget your pen can do no writing! Thousands not taking a pen to school then. Then we have social distancing at bus stops but on bus all huddled together then they want social distancing on exiting bus! List goes on. They’ve only had 6 months to work all this out. Just imagine the traffic around schools all dropping off kids and all in same 10 minute window! What z complete and utter bunch of wankers working out these rules!

It's bad enough as it is, also cannot see those who travel a long way to school being driven. I am aware of schools a 1 hour drive away on roads which are about to become a mess of roadworks and contraflows, which most parents will not want to drive each day back and forth. They may not even be able to full stop.

Why are the people working out the rules wankers, I suspect they have a real nightmare of a job and whatever they recommend it'll be pulled to pieces.

[winkywanky]

A lot of the criticism of the govt has been justified.

However, what are we to do? Everyone stay at home? Forever? All of us?

There's a balance to be struck between the Pandemic, and the economy, people's mental health and the education of a generation.

It's all very well to pick holes in everything the govt says, but at the end of the day Junior school kids are a scientifically-proven low risk, and those older need to keep their education on track.

You reach a point where people need to use their own bloody loaves, stop whingeing and just bloody well get on with it. We all know how to minimise the risk, and obey the rules that are in place.

It may be a year or two yet before the virus starts to fade away, be that because of the wait for a working vaccine or just mutation/herd immunity. Until such times, keep calm and carry on. Do as you're bloody well told and stop moaning.

[Animalbeast]

Can’t deprive children of education forever... probably more important than even the classes is the actual social development.

Some rules always seem silly... eg PE come in gym ready and stay that way after PE. Just my thought, and seems like common sense, but of hand washing is recommended then why not let kids shower (assuming schools have shower facilities) after PE.

Furthermore, there’s going to be a generations of kids that turn into adults for whom this “socially distanced, fear everyone etc” is their personality trait and way of viewing the world.

[Digby232]

So why a gap of ten mins to turn upto school. All breakfast clubs stopped. Give say an hour window of different years say 8 till 9. Or do teachers not want to be there too early now? Lessons could start at 8 even for some then finish hour earlier. Prob too difficult to organise. Only had 6 months to do it!

[GingerNuts]

So why a gap of ten mins to turn upto school. All breakfast clubs stopped. Give say an hour window of different years say 8 till 9. Or do teachers not want to be there too early now? Lessons could start at 8 even for some then finish hour earlier. Prob too difficult to organise. Only had 6 months to do it!

You've had two years to post a review...

[Animalbeast]

You've had two years to post a review...

    Don’t you know UKP isn’t the the who to and not to punt site, it’s the site for advice on government policy

[Corus Boy]

Can’t deprive children of education forever... probably more important than even the classes is the actual social development.

Some rules always seem silly... eg PE come in gym ready and stay that way after PE. Just my thought, and seems like common sense, but of hand washing is recommended then why not let kids shower (assuming schools have shower facilities) after PE.

Furthermore, there’s going to be a generations of kids that turn into adults for whom this “socially distanced, fear everyone etc” is their personality trait and way of viewing the world.

Very well said.

[Gordon Bennett]

Technically my mate was due back today but it was deemed an inset day so they are going back tomorrow. Given they have just been off for 180 days it seems a bit odd.

[Strawberry]

Technically my mate was due back today but it was deemed an inset day so they are going back tomorrow. Given they have just been off for 180 days it seems a bit odd.

Ah a Baker day , the second time today I have seen the word 'inset' - just looked it up now I understand.

[RedKettle]

Technically my mate was due back today but it was deemed an inset day so they are going back tomorrow. Given they have just been off for 180 days it seems a bit odd.

Many schools have spent the inset day doing final planning a prep for the return today.

[RedKettle]

Some rules always seem silly... eg PE come in gym ready and stay that way after PE. Just my thought, and seems like common sense, but of hand washing is recommended then why not let kids shower (assuming schools have shower facilities) after PE.

This is just a guess but it may be that having a shower with covid could aerosol it into droplets and spread to rest of the class. As I say just a guess and may be talking crap, as usual.

[Happylad]

Some recollections of my own school days:-

Classrooms with no glass in the windows - that bomb last week;
No car travel because there was no petrol for private use
Getting there along with 50 other people crammed into a 35 seater `bus (no school buses then); kids all expected to stand and allow adults to sit;
Bomb crater in the playing field;
Mad rush to the Air Raid Shelter whenever the sirens blew;
Carrying your gas mask with you everywhere;
PT in your normal clothes because (a) there were no changing rooms, and (b) No enough clothing coupons for anything else;
Walk 2 miles home because the packed `buses wouldn`t stop for more passengers;
Boiled cabbage every day for school dinner;
The cane if you broke the rules.

What on earth is the reason that all our kids are now molly-coddled wimps that have to be chauffeured to school and treated like fragile flowers?

 God help us if we ever get involved another war

[Strawberry]

This is just a guess but it may be that having a shower with covid could aerosol it into droplets and spread to rest of the class. As I say just a guess and may be talking crap, as usual.

Lots of children in shared changing rooms, wet towels, clothes and shoes everywhere. Who will wipe down the showers afterwards.

Sounds like a whole host of extra points of contamination to deal with.

[Chorley]

Oh fucking great. 

Loads of fat lazy parents in SUVs clogging up my morning commute to take their equally fat and lazy sprogs to a school they could easily walk to. 

I can't wait. 

[Adoniron]

Some recollections of my own school days:-

Classrooms with no glass in the windows - that bomb last week;
No car travel because there was no petrol for private use
Getting there along with 50 other people crammed into a 35 seater `bus (no school buses then); kids all expected to stand and allow adults to sit;
Bomb crater in the playing field;
Mad rush to the Air Raid Shelter whenever the sirens blew;
Carrying your gas mask with you everywhere;
PT in your normal clothes because (a) there were no changing rooms, and (b) No enough clothing coupons for anything else;
Walk 2 miles home because the packed `buses wouldn`t stop for more passengers;
Boiled cabbage every day for school dinner;
The cane if you broke the rules.

What on earth is the reason that all our kids are now molly-coddled wimps that have to be chauffeured to school and treated like fragile flowers?

 God help us if we ever get involved another war

And nowadays parents want better for their children. How very unreasonable of them 🙄

[Happylad]

And nowadays parents want better for their children. How very unreasonable of them 🙄

I remember the 1930`s, the poverty, the hardships and the unemployment which all followed the recession of the 1920`s, and the miserable conditions in which many of my schoolmates lived.  If paying for this present world wide disaster puts our economy back to anything like those times (and it could well do so) all those over-indulged, pampered kids may suffer a grievous shock.

[willie loman]

I remember the 1930`s, the poverty, the hardships and the unemployment which all followed the recession of the 1920`s, and the miserable conditions in which many of my schoolmates lived.  If paying for this present world wide disaster puts our economy back to anything like those times (and it could well do so) all those over-indulged, pampered kids may suffer a grievous shock.

When were you born?

[Happylad]

When were you born?

1929. King George V was on the throne and Ramsay MacDonald was the Prime Minster when I was born, closely followed by Stanley Baldwin.
 
The Infants` school I attended in 1934 (for 2 years) was over a mile from my home, and a couple of other kids and myself used to walk there every morning, walk back home for dinner, then back to school for the afternoon and finally back home at teatime - about 6 miles a day in total.  We were fit and healthy from the exercise, and in any case there was no `bus service for the route, and none of our parents owned cars.  Any suggestion that our lives would have been "better" by being ferried about in cars or `buses is complete nonsense, and is simply pandering to the laziness which results in far too many of today`s kids being unfit and overweight .

When I graduated to the senior school in 1936 it was an extra half mile each way to walk 4 times a day.

After my home was  flattened by a german bomb in 1940 the remains of my family moved out to the country and the High School I started to attend (scholarship, of course) was 10 miles away with 2 `bus stages - one of 7 miles and the other of 3 miles; as my pocket money consisted mainly of what I could save from the `bus fare I frequently walked the 3 mile stage in the afternoon leaving me 3d. (old money) a day in pocket, and when I really needed the cash I occasionally walked the 7 mile one as well

We thought nothing of it in those days, but then we weren`t pampered and lazy like kids today.

It may also be the reason why, at my age, I am able to spend a morning digging up potatoes

[Happylad]

Sorry - missed a bit out;

In 1941 we moved back nearer my school - a couple of miles or so away and I was usually able to get a `bus to school, but usually walked home. After a couple of years or so my savings from the `bus fares were sufficient to buy a rather ancient second-hand bike which got me there and back, rain or shine.

[king tarzan]

A very very good thing... these kids are OUR GREAT BRITAIN (ENGLAND) future.... make our NATION PROUD AS DID MAGGIE THATCHER AND DAVID CAMERON  :thumbs:


GOD BLESS MARGARET THATCHER R.I.P.

[Corus Boy]

Lots of children in shared changing rooms, wet towels, clothes and shoes everywhere. Who will wipe down the showers afterwards.

Sounds like a whole host of extra points of contamination to deal with.

We didn't get school dinners and listening to the Rashford campaign for the tax payer to feed everyone's children I do wonder how I survived ten years of raspberry jam sandwiches or Lemon Curd sandwiches or, if I was really lucky, Spam sandwiches?

Made with two slices of white bread and margarine.

[Wadebridge]

Some recollections of my own school days:-
Classrooms with no glass in the windows - that bomb last week; ...
Bomb crater in the playing field;
Mad rush to the Air Raid Shelter whenever the sirens blew;
Carrying your gas mask with you everywhere; ...
God help us if we ever get involved another war

We are involved in another war fella, just not one involving 'conventional weapons' that your childhood memories so poignantly invoked.
This war; between USA and 'new threat' China is being fought with insidious, invisible silent weapons, that leave little or no trace, which makes it extremely difficult as to establish whom the original perpetrator is/was.
It does not escape one's notice every day though, just how slow, incompetent and lacking in progress the world's 'public inquiry' into the origins of the coronavirus is doing. It does actually make one wonder as to what they are 'afraid' of uncovering?
I saw big fat Pompeo the other night on telly using his usual antagonistic language;  the 'China virus'; whilst defending a man who increasingly starts to look, every day in his presidential address, as articulate and statesmanlike as George 'Dubya' Bush.
Interestingly, in this Covid war, the UK, and surprisingly other western countries like cautious Germany, seem to be now taking sides and backing the belligerent USA, rather than taking a world view and cooperating with traditional 'enemies' like China and Russia to find a solution; safe vaccine, effective test & trace system etc.; and way out of this pandemic. 
For anyone who thinks, now that schools are back, that the economy and life in general; such as Fri or Sat night down the pub; is gradually returning to some semblance of normality, and that the 'virus' is becoming less lethal because the rise in infections is not resulting in an increase in hospitalisations and deaths, I suggest they look up the term 'long Covid'. Is that the kind of life they'd be happy to lead after the virus has 'taken its toll' ?

I remember the 1930`s, the poverty, the hardships and the unemployment which all followed the recession of the 1920`s, and the miserable conditions in which many of my schoolmates lived.  If paying for this present world wide disaster puts our economy back to anything like those times (and it could well do so) all those over-indulged, pampered kids may suffer a grievous shock.

I think we are seeing for ourselves what sort of a job today's overindulged, pampered, born with a silver spoon, kids are doing at 'handling the war'. Boris Johnson is no Churchill. He may well be suffering 'long Covid' himself.
And, with regard to his motley band of yes men and women, just how many of these 'masters of scapegoating' are still in post after this Spring and Summer of fiascos absolutely beggars belief.

[Happylad]

We are involved in another war fella, just not one involving 'conventional weapons' that your childhood memories so poignantly invoked.
This war; between USA and 'new threat' China is being fought with insidious, invisible silent weapons, that leave little or no trace, which makes it extremely difficult as to establish whom the original perpetrator is/was.
It does not escape one's notice every day though, just how slow, incompetent and lacking in progress the world's 'public inquiry' into the origins of the coronavirus is doing. It does actually make one wonder as to what they are 'afraid' of uncovering?
I saw big fat Pompeo the other night on telly using his usual antagonistic language;  the 'China virus'; whilst defending a man who increasingly starts to look, every day in his presidential address, as articulate and statesmanlike as George 'Dubya' Bush.
Interestingly, in this Covid war, the UK, and surprisingly other western countries like cautious Germany, seem to be now taking sides and backing the belligerent USA, rather than taking a world view and cooperating with traditional 'enemies' like China and Russia to find a solution; safe vaccine, effective test & trace system etc.; and way out of this pandemic. 
For anyone who thinks, now that schools are back, that the economy and life in general; such as Fri or Sat night down the pub; is gradually returning to some semblance of normality, and that the 'virus' is becoming less lethal because the rise in infections is not resulting in an increase in hospitalisations and deaths, I suggest they look up the term 'long Covid'. Is that the kind of life they'd be happy to lead after the virus has 'taken its toll' ?I think we are seeing for ourselves what sort of a job today's overindulged, pampered, born with a silver spoon, kids are doing at 'handling the war'. Boris Johnson is no Churchill. He may well be suffering 'long Covid' himself.
And, with regard to his motley band of yes men and women, just how many of these 'masters of scapegoating' are still in post after this Spring and Summer of fiascos absolutely beggars belief.

I am not quite sure precisely what relevance either this long ramble about an undeclared and non-existent war, or his reference to a 56 year old politician and his (probably somewhat similarly aged) cabinet have to do with a debate about the re-opening of the schools.

However, I will indulge him by pointing out that Donald Trump (whom I presume he meant by "big fat Pompeo) is simply taking steps (which I think are fully justified) to protect the U.S. and their economy by:-
(a) reducing the huge disparity in trade between the two countries which is due in no small part to China`s use of huge population of underpaid and, in some cases, either forced or slave labour of the million or more Uighur prisoners in the re`education camps in Xinjiang, and
(b) to prevent the possibility of theft of data from communication systems partly relying on equipment supplied by Chinese companies subject to Chinese Government control.

(Perhaps it has escaped his notice that our own economy also is suffering from the same disparity with Chinese imports) However, he may rest assured that should such a war as he mentions actually occur he will have nothing to worry about as he, along with his mollycoddled children and all the rest of mankind will most certainly be quickly vapourised in the ensuing nuclear conflagration.

[winkywanky]

Interestingly, in this Covid war, the UK, and surprisingly other western countries like cautious Germany, seem to be now taking sides and backing the belligerent USA, rather than taking a world view and cooperating with traditional 'enemies' like China and Russia to find a solution

I think we are seeing for ourselves what sort of a job today's overindulged, pampered, born with a silver spoon, kids are doing at 'handling the war'. Boris Johnson is no Churchill. He may well be suffering 'long Covid' himself.

I agree with your assessment of Johnson. He likes to try and evoke the Churchill spirit, but instead just comes across as a wishful-thinking blusterer with very little substance at all. He thinks talking everything up will in some way inspire confidence, and every time you hear him say world-beating you just know it's doomed to fail. I do think however, that he was the best of a bad lot to negotiate with the EU over Brexit terms, he was the only one who looked like he might play hardball with them.

However, engaging in any way with Russia after some of the despicable shit they've perpetrated over the last few years is frankly insane. Any state which spitefully and habitually hacks its way aross the internet, and takes a shit on our front lawn with a Cold War nerve-agent is, I would posit, in no way worthy of any kind of trust. Just look at the brazen way they behave, both with Crimea and Putin's attitude to any kind of meaningful opposition at home - ie shoot or poison them and then deny all knowledge. I wouldn't trust Putin to supply the paper hats at a kids' tea party let alone become colleagues in the hunt for a vaccine. Under Putin, Russia is a complete and utter shower of shit.

As for China, the strong imperative to trade with them is almost overwhelming, but if push came to shove and there was a way to do so, do we really believe China's insistence that Huawei is totally independent of the PRC, however badly we might fall out with them? Of course not. In those circumstances, if there was any way they could fuck us over, they most certainly would.

[willie loman]

1929. King George V was on the throne and Ramsay MacDonald was the Prime Minster when I was born, closely followed by Stanley Baldwin.
 
The Infants` school I attended in 1934 (for 2 years) was over a mile from my home, and a couple of other kids and myself used to walk there every morning, walk back home for dinner, then back to school for the afternoon and finally back home at teatime - about 6 miles a day in total.  We were fit and healthy from the exercise, and in any case there was no `bus service for the route, and none of our parents owned cars.  Any suggestion that our lives would have been "better" by being ferried about in cars or `buses is complete nonsense, and is simply pandering to the laziness which results in far too many of today`s kids being unfit and overweight .

When I graduated to the senior school in 1936 it was an extra half mile each way to walk 4 times a day.

After my home was  flattened by a german bomb in 1940 the remains of my family moved out to the country and the High School I started to attend (scholarship, of course) was 10 miles away with 2 `bus stages - one of 7 miles and the other of 3 miles; as my pocket money consisted mainly of what I could save from the `bus fare I frequently walked the 3 mile stage in the afternoon leaving me 3d. (old money) a day in pocket, and when I really needed the cash I occasionally walked the 7 mile one as well

We thought nothing of it in those days, but then we weren`t pampered and lazy like kids today.

It may also be the reason why, at my age, I am able to spend a morning digging up potatoes

Thanks for that, i was born in 1957, and did plenty of walking, the joys of being lower working class,  scotland had the lowest car ownership in europe for most of my lifetime,  no nostalgia for the past, it was crap, it may have escaped your notice, that britain is split in half, there are the fit families and the obese no hopers, its all to do with social class. i have no idea what the solution is,

[David1970]

I agree with your assessment of Johnson. He likes to try and evoke the Churchill spirit, but instead just comes across as a wishful-thinking blusterer with very little substance at all. He thinks talking everything up will in some way inspire confidence, and every time you hear him say world-beating you just know it's doomed to fail. I do think however, that he was the best of a bad lot to negotiate with the EU over Brexit terms, he was the only one who looked like he might play hardball with them.

However, engaging in any way with Russia after some of the despicable shit they've perpetrated over the last few years is frankly insane. Any state which spitefully and habitually hacks its way aross the internet, and takes a shit on our front lawn with a Cold War nerve-agent is, I would posit, in no way worthy of any kind of trust. Just look at the brazen way they behave, both with Crimea and Putin's attitude to any kind of meaningful opposition at home - ie shoot or poison them and then deny all knowledge. I wouldn't trust Putin to supply the paper hats at a kids' tea party let alone become colleagues in the hunt for a vaccine. Under Putin, Russia is a complete and utter shower of shit.

As for China, the strong imperative to trade with them is almost overwhelming, but if push came to shove and there was a way to do so, do we really believe China's insistence that Huawei is totally independent of the PRC, however badly we might fall out with them? Of course not. In those circumstances, if there was any way they could fuck us over, they most certainly would.

Boris and the Torres get their money from Russia by playing tennis, you couldn’t make it up. That is why he is anti-Chinese but not anti-Russia who kills people in Britain.
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[Adoniron]

I am not quite sure precisely what relevance either this long ramble about an undeclared and non-existent war, or his reference to a 56 year old politician and his (probably somewhat similarly aged) cabinet have to do with a debate about the re-opening of the schools.

However, I will indulge him by pointing out that Donald Trump (whom I presume he meant by "big fat Pompeo) is simply taking steps (which I think are fully justified) to protect the U.S. and their economy by:-
(a) reducing the huge disparity in trade between the two countries which is due in no small part to China`s use of huge population of underpaid and, in some cases, either forced or slave labour of the million or more Uighur prisoners in the re`education camps in Xinjiang, and
(b) to prevent the possibility of theft of data from communication systems partly relying on equipment supplied by Chinese companies subject to Chinese Government control.

(Perhaps it has escaped his notice that our own economy also is suffering from the same disparity with Chinese imports) However, he may rest assured that should such a war as he mentions actually occur he will have nothing to worry about as he, along with his mollycoddled children and all the rest of mankind will most certainly be quickly vapourised in the ensuing nuclear conflagration.

Mike Pompeo is the US Secretary of State and former Director of the CIA.

[David1970]

Mike Pompeo is the US Secretary of State and former Director of the CIA.

You are correct, both were political appointments by Trump.

[Happylad]

Mike Pompeo is the US Secretary of State and former Director of the CIA.

 
Then my apologies to Mr. Pompeo.  I`d never heard of him and (wrongly) assumed that Wadebridge had invented a new nickname for Trump.  However, that doesn`t affect the point made in my posting.

[LLPunting]

I agree with your assessment of Johnson. He likes to try and evoke the Churchill spirit, but instead just comes across as a wishful-thinking blusterer with very little substance at all. He thinks talking everything up will in some way inspire confidence, and every time you hear him say world-beating you just know it's doomed to fail. I do think however, that he was the best of a bad lot to negotiate with the EU over Brexit terms, he was the only one who looked like he might play hardball with them.

However, engaging in any way with Russia after some of the despicable shit they've perpetrated over the last few years is frankly insane. Any state which spitefully and habitually hacks its way aross the internet, and takes a shit on our front lawn with a Cold War nerve-agent is, I would posit, in no way worthy of any kind of trust. Just look at the brazen way they behave, both with Crimea and Putin's attitude to any kind of meaningful opposition at home - ie shoot or poison them and then deny all knowledge. I wouldn't trust Putin to supply the paper hats at a kids' tea party let alone become colleagues in the hunt for a vaccine. Under Putin, Russia is a complete and utter shower of shit.

As for China, the strong imperative to trade with them is almost overwhelming, but if push came to shove and there was a way to do so, do we really believe China's insistence that Huawei is totally independent of the PRC, however badly we might fall out with them? Of course not. In those circumstances, if there was any way they could fuck us over, they most certainly would.

This "security" bullshit with China is everything to do with hampering their financial ascendancy.  What interest does China have in the common Westerner's ideology, politics or security clearance?  They are wholly interested in selling everything they possibly can to as many people as they can and they're very good at it.  The Chinese state doesn't need to threaten us plebs they just sell us shit, loads of it that we buy to pinch the pennies to make up for the stupid money we're forced to spend in our overheated and warped economies.  The intelligence gathering is done by all the "trust-worthy" Western corporates who then release their targeted products which are made in China or quickly cloned by China.
Everything that they're accused of being a risk about is exactly the same information and exploitation that Western corporations are perpetrating every day with no democratic or legal constraint, because all the transgressions are appealed ad infinitum by bottomless corporate pockets.
And of course no mention is made of the access that Western governments can demand or gain under the appropriately nebulous anti-terror laws.  There may be a roar of public wailing by the corporates but when the suits and shades brigade are forced to turn up at their mansions with tax audits, sex crime allegations, evidence of financial or political impropriety, accusations of meddling with children or being bigoted to a minority then there will be backroom deals done.

[myothernameis]

One of the local secondary schools in my area, one of the kids took a photo, of everyone crowded in one place.  Parents are angry about this, and asking why around 40 kids, were crowded together

Additional problem, if you come to school with a cold, the teachers are sending the kids home, and telling them, to get a covid-19 test, and only to come back to school if the test is negative

One school in the area, two kids have tested positive, and the rest of the class, has now been sent home, and told to isolate for 14 days.  Parents of these kids are fuming, as now they have to do the same, so now  all of these families are isolating for 14 days, and some of the parent bosses arent happy about this

[winkywanky]

This "security" bullshit with China is everything to do with hampering their financial ascendancy.  What interest does China have in the common Westerner's ideology, politics or security clearance?  They are wholly interested in selling everything they possibly can to as many people as they can and they're very good at it.  The Chinese state doesn't need to threaten us plebs they just sell us shit, loads of it that we buy to pinch the pennies to make up for the stupid money we're forced to spend in our overheated and warped economies.  The intelligence gathering is done by all the "trust-worthy" Western corporates who then release their targeted products which are made in China or quickly cloned by China.
Everything that they're accused of being a risk about is exactly the same information and exploitation that Western corporations are perpetrating every day with no democratic or legal constraint, because all the transgressions are appealed ad infinitum by bottomless corporate pockets.
And of course no mention is made of the access that Western governments can demand or gain under the appropriately nebulous anti-terror laws.  There may be a roar of public wailing by the corporates but when the suits and shades brigade are forced to turn up at their mansions with tax audits, sex crime allegations, evidence of financial or political impropriety, accusations of meddling with children or being bigoted to a minority then there will be backroom deals done.

True. Especially with Trump at the helm in the US. And unfortunately as the Huawei débacle has shown, if the US decides to do something then sometimes we in the UK have little choice but to sing the same song from exactly the same hymn sheet, whether we want to or not.

We're a relatively small player compared with China and the US, so in a way we're not directly threatened by China, ie in terms of knocking us off the top spot. But the US are, at some point China will overshadow them but in the meantime Trump is putting up a fight.

The hidden but real power that the US have to tell us Brits what the fuck to do, whether we like it or not, does occasionally rear its very ugly head. Like it did with Iraq II, like it did with Huawei. It's sad but true, and the special relationship is not what we'd like it to be, it can be very sinister with implied threat.

Sadly we get forced to choose between the two whether we like it or not, and overall, it's in our interest to stick with the US when given a choice to make.

It's in that environment that we have to assume that if push came to shove, then China would use every trick in the book to get what they want, and that includes forcing the 'totally independent Huawei' to hand over intel on us, if the software in their gear allows.

[lostandfound]

This "security" bullshit with China is everything to do with hampering their financial ascendancy.  What interest does China have in the common Westerner's ideology, politics or security clearance?  They are wholly interested in selling everything they possibly can to as many people as they can and they're very good at it.  The Chinese state doesn't need to threaten us plebs they just sell us shit, loads of it that we buy to pinch the pennies to make up for the stupid money we're forced to spend in our overheated and warped economies.  The intelligence gathering is done by all the "trust-worthy" Western corporates who then release their targeted products which are made in China or quickly cloned by China.
Everything that they're accused of being a risk about is exactly the same information and exploitation that Western corporations are perpetrating every day with no democratic or legal constraint, because all the transgressions are appealed ad infinitum by bottomless corporate pockets.
And of course no mention is made of the access that Western governments can demand or gain under the appropriately nebulous anti-terror laws.  There may be a roar of public wailing by the corporates but when the suits and shades brigade are forced to turn up at their mansions with tax audits, sex crime allegations, evidence of financial or political impropriety, accusations of meddling with children or being bigoted to a minority then there will be backroom deals done.

External Link/Members Only

In SE Asia there are countries which have taken development finance from China and over which China now exerts power. On this basis I don't believe China's objective is simply to sell stuff.

[LLPunting]

External Link/Members Only

In SE Asia there are countries which have taken development finance from China and over which China now exerts power. On this basis I don't believe China's objective is simply to sell stuff.

Sphere of influence, as practiced by all empire builders across the ages regardless of touted or purported form of government, has been well practiced and then given up by the Chinese as their civilisation has waxed and waned.  Before it was occupation and subjugation, now it is fiscal and political.  There is no need to forcefully possess things physically when one can "own" the masters of what you want, that is the lesson they've applied from the capitalists.  Power and prosperity derives from the economic exploitation of resources not simple occupation, the Chinese know full well that economic war is the way to win, slaughtering millions to take territory is the most wasteful and protracted means of subjugation, it is not wise.  They are surrounded by nuclear powers, geological boundaries and large standing armies so breaking forth from their own borders would be perilous, they do not have the smug comfort of the US being bounded by oceans.

[lostandfound]

Sphere of influence, as practiced by all empire builders across the ages regardless of touted or purported form of government, has been well practiced and then given up by the Chinese as their civilisation has waxed and waned.  Before it was occupation and subjugation, now it is fiscal and political.  There is no need to forcefully possess things physically when one can "own" the masters of what you want, that is the lesson they've applied from the capitalists.  Power and prosperity derives from the economic exploitation of resources not simple occupation, the Chinese know full well that economic war is the way to win, slaughtering millions to take territory is the most wasteful and protracted means of subjugation, it is not wise.  They are surrounded by nuclear powers, geological boundaries and large standing armies so breaking forth from their own borders would be perilous, they do not have the smug comfort of the US being bounded by oceans.

umm - kind of sounds like you are agreeing with me, that they attempt to use economic power to wield undue political influence and power.

As regards the use of physical force recently there have been reports from Hong Kong, and the killing of a number of Indian soldiers, and the Muslim enclaves they've created etc showing that they will use force when they can get away with it.

And beyond their own borders building artificial islands at sea, and claiming international waters as Chinese, and playing chicken with foreign navies in those waters.

I heard an Australian official on the Radio 4 Today programme on Wednesday morning saying he is calling for a coordinated global response to the bullying behaviour practised by China upon countries all around the world.

[LLPunting]

umm - kind of sounds like you are agreeing with me, that they attempt to use economic power to wield undue political influence and power.

As regards the use of physical force recently there have been reports from Hong Kong, and the killing of a number of Indian soldiers, and the Muslim enclaves they've created etc showing that they will use force when they can get away with it.

And beyond their own borders building artificial islands at sea, and claiming international waters as Chinese, and playing chicken with foreign navies in those waters.

I heard an Australian official on the Radio 4 Today programme on Wednesday morning saying he is calling for a coordinated global response to the bullying behaviour practised by China upon countries all around the world.

You give me Hong Kong "two systems" riots and a skirmish of a hundred or so soldiers and I give you civil unrest in US (and the rest of the world) over BLM, CoVID, democracy, immigration, etc.

The South China Sea (ironic internationally acknowledged classification) land grabbing is an interesting situation, why other countries (sponsored or aided by US) aren't doing the same to consolidate is perplexing.  Even so, trying to alter the lines of control does little to actually annex other countries.  They are "cheap" and immobile counters to US carrier power projection.  Until China establishes substantial military presence, not token garrisons, they are little more use than a bunch of nationals camping in a field.  They may serve as logistical stockpiles but they would have to be replenished so not exactly durable.

The West are carping about practices they've been guilty of for decades (nay centuries) on behalf of their individual national and corporate interests.  The screaming now is because you have a singular behemoth in China and its economic actors bearing down on them.

[lostandfound]

You give me Hong Kong "two systems" riots and a skirmish of a hundred or so soldiers and I give you civil unrest in US (and the rest of the world) over BLM, CoVID, democracy, immigration, etc.

The South China Sea (ironic internationally acknowledged classification) land grabbing is an interesting situation, why other countries (sponsored or aided by US) aren't doing the same to consolidate is perplexing.  Even so, trying to alter the lines of control does little to actually annex other countries.  They are "cheap" and immobile counters to US carrier power projection.  Until China establishes substantial military presence, not token garrisons, they are little more use than a bunch of nationals camping in a field.  They may serve as logistical stockpiles but they would have to be replenished so not exactly durable.

The West are carping about practices they've been guilty of for decades (nay centuries) on behalf of their individual national and corporate interests.  The screaming now is because you have a singular behemoth in China and its economic actors bearing down on them.

I don't believe current upheaval in the West comes close to the abuse of human rights practised by the Chinese authorities within their borders. This afternoon's example -  the forced sterilisation of Uighur women. External Link/Members Only

As regards annexing other countries what about China claiming Taiwan and Tibet? Though exercising effective political control through economic blackmail is colonisation by another method.

As regards what I've highlighted - once again it sounds like you are agreeing with me, that China seeks power and influence beyond just selling stuff.

[daviemac]

Can someone tell me what the last few posts on this thread have to do with schools reopening in this country.   
 

[LLPunting]

Can someone tell me what the last few posts on this thread have to do with schools reopening in this country.   

Soz. 

[Happylad]

Can someone tell me what the last few posts on this thread have to do with schools reopening in this country.   

It`s commonly know as "Wittering" and consists of blethering on when  everything useful has already been said.

[daviemac]

It`s commonly know as "Wittering" and consists of blethering on when  everything useful has already been said.

It's also called political discussions which aren't allowed and is a sure fire way of getting the thread binned. 

[RedKettle]

It's also called political discussions which aren't allowed and is a sure fire way of getting the thread binned.

Not being awkward or anything, this is a genuine question. I thought the ban on politics was U.K. politics rather than international matters? I think just an assumption rather than based on anything I read. Am I wrong?

[NIK]

Seeing as virtually anything could be deemed political, including punting, it is almost impossible to enforce.

[daviemac]

Not being awkward or anything, this is a genuine question. I thought the ban on politics was U.K. politics rather than international matters? I think just an assumption rather than based on anything I read. Am I wrong?

The rule is " No religion, race, or politics." As it doesn't stipulate 'UK Politics' I take that to mean any politics.

That doesn't alter the fact that Russian, American and Chinese politics has nothing to do with the schools in this country reopening.

Seeing as virtually anything could be deemed political, including punting, it is almost impossible to enforce.

It's very easy to enforce, delete the offending posts, delete or lock the thread whichever is deemed most suitable. Admin and Head1 have given instructions to do all three.

If someone can tell me how this post is relevant to UK schools and not in any way political I will stand corrected..
 

I don't believe current upheaval in the West comes close to the abuse of human rights practised by the Chinese authorities within their borders. This afternoon's example -  the forced sterilisation of Uighur women. External Link/Members Only

As regards annexing other countries what about China claiming Taiwan and Tibet? Though exercising effective political control through economic blackmail is colonisation by another method.

As regards what I've highlighted - once again it sounds like you are agreeing with me, that China seeks power and influence beyond just selling stuff.

[myothernameis]

Not being awkward or anything, this is a genuine question. I thought the ban on politics was U.K. politics rather than international matters? I think just an assumption rather than based on anything I read. Am I wrong?

Think this thread went off topic once Happylad posted his reply, and then other posters added there own comments, and befote we know, its gone of polictical

1929. King George V was on the throne and Ramsay MacDonald was the Prime Minster when I was born, closely followed by Stanley Baldwin.
 
The Infants` school I attended in 1934 (for 2 years) was over a mile from my home, .......

[sparkus]

At the risk of turning the thread back to the original theme, my sister's brats went back this week.  The school had organised an orderly system for the first day with numbered entry to the schoolyard for the first form, my nephew was number six or so and she accompanied him to the gate.  Behind her parents were hugging each other, huddling in groups of six etc. with zero social distancing whatsoever and when teachers pointed this out they were told "Fuck off you snowflake killjoy, the hospitals are empty now".  When it was pointed out that the behaviour would probably get us back to lockdown, some shrugged "Doesn't bother me, they can just watch videos at home again".

[RedKettle]

The rule is " No religion, race, or politics." As it doesn't stipulate 'UK Politics' I take that to mean any politics.

Thank you 

[NIK]

At the risk of turning the thread back to the original theme, my sister's brats went back this week.  The school had organised an orderly system for the first day with numbered entry to the schoolyard for the first form, my nephew was number six or so and she accompanied him to the gate.  Behind her parents were hugging each other, huddling in groups of six etc. with zero social distancing whatsoever and when teachers pointed this out they were told "Fuck off you snowflake killjoy, the hospitals are empty now".  When it was pointed out that the behaviour would probably get us back to lockdown, some shrugged "Doesn't bother me, they can just watch videos at home again".

Doesn't surprise me. Many people are getting hacked off with the inconsistent and often nonsensical approach to this alleged pandemic.
Now we all know scientists have vested interests in playing up fears to maintain their research grants and salaries, but I wonder who it is making a fortune from masks. Undoubtedly someone will be. Twatty Hancock maybe?

[RedKettle]

to this alleged pandemic.

So which part are you not certain about?  Do you doubt there is a virus or is it the fact that it has spread to a number of countries and is affecting alot of people?