Onlyfans

[Payyourwaymate]

There's a whole YouTube vid by Jordan Theresa on Onlyfans as a form of sex work: External Link/Members Only

I normally enjoy her stuff but I don't agree with her on this.

She also goes to town on the whole Simp thing: External Link/Members Only

She said that being a sex worker is liberating for women....HOW? I will never understand how being a sex worker is empowering and liberating. What's empowering about fucking a random guy or selling content online on the internet? Is this what they mean by fighting against the "patriarchy"?

I think I'm missing something lol. She does make some other sensible points though.

[billybobsmith]

She said that being a sex worker is liberating for women....HOW? I will never understand how being a sex worker is empowering and liberating. What's empowering about fucking a random guy or selling content online on the internet? Is this what they mean by fighting against the "patriarchy"?

I think I'm missing something lol. She does make some other sensible points though.

I assume she means that the women is in control of her body, who she shags, what pictures she takes, what videos she uploads etc. rather than a man dictating everything to her and potentially benefiting financially from it whilst she gets only a cut?

[winkywanky]

Why would I be jealous of a mug

I do stop being such a fucking twat David, grow up.

Just like punting, it's horses for courses, and to call someone else a mug for what you yourself wouldn't do, is just plain ignorant.

[David1970]

I do stop being such a fucking twat David, grow up.

Just like punting, it's horses for courses, and to call someone else a mug for what you yourself wouldn't do, is just plain ignorant.

As far as grown up goes I would check reply #43, you called yourself a mug and me a twat 

[Chorley]

Now now boys. Play nicely. 

[winkywanky]

As far as grown up goes I would check reply #43, you called yourself a mug and me a twat 

I was being sarcastic because you called me a mug.

Stop calling me a mug and I'll stop calling you a twat. Or a wanker. Or just plain ignorant. I might even stop telling you to grow up, who knows? 

[David1970]

 

I was being sarcastic because you called me a mug.

Stop calling me a mug and I'll stop calling you a twat. Or a wanker. Or just plain ignorant. I might even stop telling you to grow up, who knows? 

[winkywanky]

 

Where do you get off, you self-important prick?

[David1970]

Where do you get off, you self-important prick?

 

[winkywanky]

..

[Chorley]

Have you two been on the beers? 

[David1970]

Local girl to me is seem putting on photos of the new Range Rover she has just bought on social media, it seems she is boasting she got the money from Onlyfans. She is no looker and a bit of a porker, but all power to her if she can get mugs to send her money.

I posted this and WW went of the deep end for some reason, he is not even mentioned in the post

[winkywanky]

You posted it in direct response to my post explaining that I had subscribed to a WG's Onlyfans for one month, because I wouldn't be seeing her until it was safe to do so.

You also said:

Let’s be blunt about this, you have to be some kind of sad cunt to keep paying money for this.

I suppose they should call it Onlyfools as only a fool would spend money on that shit.

So you basically called me a sad cunt and a mug.

So basically you can fuck off 

[ratedj]

I posted this and WW went of the deep end for some reason, he is not even mentioned in the post

Dave, using a film as a metaphor, you've skipped stright to the middle and ending of the plot.

[ratedj]

You posted it in direct response to my post explaining that I had subscribed to a WG's Onlyfans for one month, because I wouldn't be seeing her until it was safe to do so.

You also said:

So you basically called me a sad cunt and a mug.

So basically you can fuck off 

Thus, here is that 'beginning.'

[winkywanky]

And her endeth the first lesson: if you piss on someone else's parade, don't expect them to thank you for it 

[daviemac]

I posted this and WW went of the deep end for some reason, he is not even mentioned in the post

Why are you calling forum members 'sad cunt's', 'fools' and 'mugs' because they choose to pay for Onlyfans. Fair enough if you don't see the point, I don't either but I don't start calling others who do, I just don't subscribe.

Seems a bit odd that you feel the need to be so critical of others over the way they spend their money.

 

[David1970]

You posted it in direct response to my post explaining that I had subscribed to a WG's Onlyfans for one month, because I wouldn't be seeing her until it was safe to do so.

You also said:

So you basically called me a sad cunt and a mug.

So basically you can fuck off 

The first quote you say I was talking about you was written before you had made any replies to this thread, I did not even you subscribe to Onlyfans, so how could I be having a go at you personally?

[winkywanky]

The first quote you say I was talking about you was written before you had made any replies to this thread, I did not even you subscribe to Onlyfans, so how could I be having a go at you personally?

Like davie says, Why are you calling forum members 'sad cunts', 'fools' and 'mugs' because they choose to pay for Onlyfans 

If you make blanket statements about anyone who uses Onlyfans, then by inference you tar all with the same brush. Don't you?

One of your comments was in direct response to a post of mine, but frankly I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.

But basically, just have a little more respect for other people's choices.

[Chorley]

Like davie says, Why are you calling forum members 'sad cunts', 'fools' and 'mugs' because they choose to pay for Onlyfans 

If you make blanket statements about anyone who uses Onlyfans, then by inference you tar all with the same brush. Don't you?

One of your comments was in direct response to a post of mine, but frankly I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.

But basically, just have a little more respect for other people's choices.

TBF  WW I think I said they were mugs and that they needed to get a life, so it's not just David, is it? 

[winkywanky]

TBF  WW I think I said they were mugs and that they needed to get a life, so it's not just David, is it? 

Did you?

Then the same response applies to you, but at least I recognise your integrity in saying so.

[daviemac]

TBF  WW I think I said they were mugs and that they needed to get a life, so it's not just David, is it? 

Bit of a difference with you though.

I subscribed to a couple of Onlyfans accounts out of curiosity. What a pile of shite! It's like a virtual Latina brothel. If you want anything half decent...... Eeees estra baby.  INeedless to say I didnt renew beyond the initial subscription.
Anyone that subscribes to them for the long-term is a mug and needs to get a life IMHO.

You have subscribed to it and subsequently given your opinion based on the experience you had. I presume INHO means 'in my honest opinion'.

[sparkus]

Like davie says, Why are you calling forum members 'sad cunts', 'fools' and 'mugs' because they choose to pay for Onlyfans 

If you make blanket statements about anyone who uses Onlyfans, then by inference you tar all with the same brush. Don't you?

One of your comments was in direct response to a post of mine, but frankly I can't be bothered to argue the toss any more.

But basically, just have a little more respect for other people's choices.

It's not something I'd ever go for but I don't have WW's bank balance and free time, can't we all just get along?

[winkywanky]

It's not something I'd ever go for but I don't have WW's bank balance and free time, can't we all just get along?

I suspect your bank balance is better than mine, I live on a works pension and some savings. I paid £14 for a month of quality wanks. So what?

It's immaterial anyway, we all make our own choices, we don't piss on others' choices.

Simples.

[winkywanky]

It's no different from WGs in general, some are shit and will milk you dry for as little effort as possible, others will give VFM.

You don't not punt simply because you made a bad choice the first time, you either make a better choice or you simply decide it's not for you.

In my case I chose the Onlyfans of a WG I'd already seen and couldn't see again because of Lockdown, subscribed for a month and now I'm seeing her again in a couple of weeks anyway.

Anyway, I'm bored with all this pointless shit, next...

[sparkus]

I suspect your bank balance is better than mine, I live on a works pension and some savings. I paid £14 for a month of quality wanks. So what?

It's immaterial anyway, we all make our own choices, we don't piss on others' choices.

Simples.

Fair enough, I spent £15 on lunch earlier (resenting pubs opening now).

[winkywanky]

I had a homemade cheese sandwich, the constituents of which came to around 32p, including pickle.

But I would never wish to piss on your lunch.

Literally, or otherwise 

[sparkus]

I had a homemade cheese sandwich, the constituents of which came to around 32p, including pickle.

But I would never wish to piss on your lunch.

Literally, or otherwise 

I wouldn't want to piss on my chips (or yours) either.

[Chorley]

I had a homemade cheese sandwich, the constituents of which came to around 32p, including pickle.

But I would never wish to piss on your lunch.

Literally, or otherwise 

Cheese and pickle sandwiches 

[winkywanky]

Having said all of this, it is a deep-held fantasy of mine to have Rachel Riley piss on my Cornflakes, although I suspect she'd be mortified to hear that  .

[winkywanky]

Cheese and pickle sandwiches 

But not Ham & Picalilli. Hate Picalilli 

[stevedave]

Onlyfans, premium snapchat, premium kik etc... they're just like escorting - if there is a demand, there will be a supply. And the demand is way higher than the supply, so these lasses can charge what they want for a few rude photos and videos.

Fair play to them, doubt I could earn £15k a month by posting videos of me touching myself up  then again, I don't have to worry about going shopping and getting funny looks because half them people I pass have seen me shoving a 12 inch dildo up my arse

[Zeusthedoc]

Having said all of this, it is a deep-held fantasy of mine to have Rachel Riley piss on my Cornflakes, although I suspect she'd be mortified to hear that  .

Yeah, I heard she had a contract with Nestlé so she wouldn't go near cornflakes...I heard she would go nuts on shreddies

[winkywanky]

Yeah, I heard she had a contract with Nestlé so she wouldn't go near cornflakes...I heard she would go nuts on shreddies

If she pissed on my Cornflakes, I'd feel duty-bound to nut on her Shreddies 

[Payyourwaymate]

I assume she means that the women is in control of her body, who she shags, what pictures she takes, what videos she uploads etc. rather than a man dictating everything to her and potentially benefiting financially from it whilst she gets only a cut?

That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying. Although, I think the older generation feminist women like Mary Wollstonecraft and Simone de beauvoir would weep at what female liberation is now compared to back then. 

[Payyourwaymate]

I just wanted to post this here as I have similar views to what was expressed in this post.

But look at it the other way.

Picture a scenario were your favourite WGs, and those currently on your Hotlist suddenly decide to quit escorting and only do Onlyfans (because it pays more money).

Due to this, they are no longer available for you to fuck.

All you can now do is to wank to their paid content on your PC.

This is exactly what you are encouraging by actively supporting platforms like Onlyfans.

These girls are not stupid, once they have a large following of people like you supporting them, it's only a matter of time before they quit escorting.

At the moment, over one-fifth of the hotties on my Hotlist have stopped escorting, and now focused on their Onlyfans.

Thanks to people like you who actively support them, these hotties don't see the need to escort when they can stay at home and make way more money selling subs and content on Onlyfans.

Many of us are here because we wanna fuck the best hotties we can find.

Onlyfans is counter-productive to this objective, as the best hotties go over there and soon become unavailable for us to fuck 

The rise of Onlyfans in a sense, is like what Uber done to independent taxi drivers and smaller companies, but this time Onlyfans is Uber and punters are the taxi drivers.

I think punters at the higher income bracket will be fine as they have plenty of options anyway, can use agencies or just fly out to different countries, use SA etc. It's the everyday punter that will see their pool of options shrinking as the attractive WGs that would have otherwise done physical sex work (fucking punters), no longer seeing physical punter work as a viable option, when doing online work could potentially make more sense with a higher earning potential and no physical contact with a man they may not be attracted to and all the other dangers that may be entailed in the job.

Personally, I do not disagree with savvy women using onlyfans to their advantage...of course, why not. However, I am not a woman. As a punter and seeing things through a punters perspective, it's a no brainer that if this continues long term and becomes a norm with the help of men prepared to fund this with minimal gain in exchange on their side to make these women £££££ where this could lead to. There's already enough men sexually frustrated as it is and I think with this proliferation of onlyfans workers, it will only get worse.

At the end of the day everyone has their agendas, punters want physical access to hotties at a reasonable price and sex workers want to make the most money the easiest way possible. Onlyfans I would say is tilting the balance in their favour which is great for them, but potentially not good for everyday punters in the fields searching for talent.

[daviemac]

The rise of Onlyfans in a sense, is like what Uber done to independent taxi drivers and smaller companies, but this time Onlyfans is Uber and punters are the taxi drivers.

I think punters at the higher income bracket will be fine as they have plenty of options anyway, can use agencies or just fly out to different countries, use SA etc. It's the everyday punter that will see their pool of options shrinking as the attractive WGs that would have otherwise done physical sex work (fucking punters), no longer seeing physical punter work as a viable option, when doing online work could potentially make more sense with a higher earning potential and no physical contact with a man they may not be attracted to and all the other dangers that may be entailed in the job.

Bit of a generalisation there, why would I need to be a higher earner to use an agency when they are cheaper than most independents. 

[DrGFreeman]

The rise of Onlyfans in a sense, is like what Uber done to independent taxi drivers and smaller companies, but this time Onlyfans is Uber and punters are the taxi drivers.

I think punters at the higher income bracket will be fine as they have plenty of options anyway, can use agencies or just fly out to different countries, use SA etc. It's the everyday punter that will see their pool of options shrinking as the attractive WGs that would have otherwise done physical sex work (fucking punters), no longer seeing physical punter work as a viable option, when doing online work could potentially make more sense with a higher earning potential and no physical contact with a man they may not be attracted to and all the other dangers that may be entailed in the job.

this is what I dont get, the rise of onlyfans
pretty girls have been making lots of money on cam sites for years
I have always thought girls who had to skills were doing that any rather than working as escorts

So I dont get the punting doomsday scenario of girls choosing DIY porn over escorting cos surely it would have happened alread ?

[hendrix]

There's some good points raised, but it's worth considering that plenty of potential WG's or cammers simply don't have the desire/skillset to do what it takes to be successful at escorting or Onlyfans. Some of the best WG's I know (measured by their apparent popularity) have said that they find it much easier to suck 10 cocks a day, than churn out enough content that people will actually pay for, especially with free porn everywhere.

Interesting that it's been mentioned the "hottest" girls as the ones who'd be more inclined to cam than fuck, because my experience has been that those "hottest" girls are pretty average/poor fucks. I'm talking about the actual model types I used to see through London agencies.

Perhaps there's a looks/service divide in the mix here too? Punters that prioritise looks may lose out to onlyfans? Those of us more service oriented aren't that bothered?

So, in my case, I'm fine with paying some hot insta girl to make a custom vid of drinking her bf's piss on onlyfans, because she'd never do it with me? 

[Payyourwaymate]

Bit of a generalisation there, why would I need to be a higher earner to use an agency when they are cheaper than most independents. 

I mean "higher priced" agencies that have more access to attractive girls which would cost more, compared to the independents still around, that are not able to make more money through onlyfans and have to do physical face to face work and may not seem is attractive when compared to agency rosters, like Diva and their russian girls for instance. There are girls on diva that operate independently as well but there are some that may not, and I have not really seen a lot independents that match those rare russian girls lookswise and are easily accessible. It would be easier access than searching for a long time to find one attractive independent that would meet the requirements, when very attractive independent WGs are leaving the talent pool for the greener pastures of Onlyfans. I hope that clarified my point.

[Payyourwaymate]

this is what I dont get, the rise of onlyfans
pretty girls have been making lots of money on cam sites for years
I have always thought girls who had to skills were doing that any rather than working as escorts

So I dont get the punting doomsday scenario of girls choosing DIY porn over escorting cos surely it would have happened alread ?

One of the reasons Onlyfans is big because they take less of a cut than other camsites did. They take about 20% to sort out everything for them whilst over camsites took over 40% of earnings and other stuff aswell. It's much easier for the online girls to make more £££££ with onlyfans than some other site. Not sure now with the added VAT though.

[daviemac]

I mean "higher priced" agencies that have more access to attractive girls which would cost more, compared to the independents still around, that are not able to make more money through onlyfans and have to do physical face to face work and may not seem is attractive when compared to agency rosters, like Diva and their russian girls for instance. There are girls on diva that operate independently as well but there are some that may not, and I have not really seen a lot independents that match those rare russian girls lookswise and are easily accessible. It would be easier access than searching for a long time to find one attractive independent that would meet the requirements, when very attractive independent WGs are leaving the talent pool for the greener pastures of Onlyfans. I hope that clarified my point.

The flaw in your argument is you are making a general statement when in fact you are talking about one particular area of the country ie London. There are some very attractive escorts in my area, some of whom are on Onlyfans and as a general rule those with agencies are cheaper that independents.

The highest price agency in my area have some, not all, of their escorts at £150 ph outcall, most agencies however are £110 / £120 incall and £130 ? £140 outcall. Rates and standards vary enormously throughout the country.

That is not even giving any consideration to the aptitude of the individual. Just because an escort is good looking doesn't mean the would be successful on cam, it's a totally different skill set.  You'd be surprised how many are happy to get naked asap yet won't do a strip or lapdance for a punter because they feel stupid.
 

[Payyourwaymate]

The flaw in your argument is you are making a general statement when in fact you are talking about one particular area of the country ie London. There are some very attractive escorts in my area, some of whom are on Onlyfans and as a general rule those with agencies are cheaper that independents.

The highest price agency in my area have some, not all, of their escorts at £150 ph outcall, most agencies however are £110 / £120 incall and £130 ? £140 outcall. Rates and standards vary enormously throughout the country.

That is not even giving any consideration to the aptitude of the individual. Just because an escort is good looking doesn't mean the would be successful on cam, it's a totally different skill set.  You'd be surprised how many are happy to get naked asap yet won't do a strip or lapdance for a punter because they feel stupid.
 

Coming from that perspective yes, you are right then. I was looking at it from a London perspective, I was unaware that agencies outside of london were that much more reasonable.

Considering the point about aptitude of the individual I do agree with you and I have made posts in the past that camming is very difficult. I do not think onlyfans is a walk in the park for women that do not have a large social presence, it's probably harder than physical sex work having to market and advertise your content. However, the whole idea of women making serious cash from onlyfans is why there is a lot of opposition against men who are paying for content online by the hundreds and thousands due to lack of sexual gratification in real life or what ever need they may have, essentially allowing any decent looking girl with a large following to do minimal work and earn thousands. It's a case of where these women can "have their cake and eat it" if that's the correct phrase, people are not happy about it. There are women that have made thousands and do not post nudes, some only post feet pics, as long as they can find a niche in some cases they do not even need to get fully naked.

I do not believe that every woman will make serious cash off online fans but if one is able to put in enough work to earn £2000 a month online and not have to meet anybody, surely that is more attractive than face to face work and easier? Surely there will be some sex workers prepared to change their skill set for the more viable option no? If it were possible and it caught on then I think such a middle ground is what would take out the average and relatively attractive WG out from the talent pool for everyday punters. Unless face to face sex workers are clearing more than £3000 a month and it's not worth switching online, then I don't know.

My concern is that the talent pool will shrink for punters, not that Onlyfans will end physical sexwork, I think physical sexwork (face to face) will always be around, but question the quality in the future of what WGs will be available, if the trend continues to moves towards avenues like onlyfans and the like. Another poster said it's just a bubble which I agree with to an extent, will just have to see.

[daviemac]

Coming from that perspective yes, you are right then. I was looking at it from a London perspective, I was unaware that agencies outside of london were that much more reasonable.

Considering the point about aptitude of the individual I do agree with you and I have made posts in the past that camming is very difficult. I do not think onlyfans is a walk in the park for women that do not have a large social presence, it's probably harder than physical sex work having to market and advertise your content. However, the whole idea of women making serious cash from onlyfans is why there is a lot of opposition against men who are paying for content online by the hundreds and thousands due to lack of sexual gratification in real life or what ever need they may have, essentially allowing any decent looking girl with a large following to do minimal work and earn thousands. It's a case of where these women can "have their cake and eat it" if that's the correct phrase, people are not happy about it. There are women that have made thousands and do not post nudes, some only post feet pics, as long as they can find a niche in some cases they do not even need to get fully naked.

I do not believe that every woman will make serious cash off online fans but if one is able to put in enough work to earn £2000 a month online and not have to meet anybody, surely that is more attractive than face to face work and easier? Surely there will be some sex workers prepared to change their skill set for the more viable option no? If it were possible and it caught on then I think such a middle ground is what would take out the average and relatively attractive WG out from the talent pool for everyday punters. Unless face to face sex workers are clearing more than £3000 a month and it's not worth switching online, then I don't know.

My concern is that the talent pool will shrink for punters, not that Onlyfans will end physical sexwork, I think physical sexwork (face to face) will always be around, but question the quality in the future of what WGs will be available, if the trend continues to moves towards avenues like onlyfans and the like. Another poster said it's just a bubble which I agree with to an extent, will just have to see.

It is impossible to generalise when talking about sex work, there are just too many variations. you are presuming all escorts are full time and all want to earn a fortune, that is not the case by any stretch of the imagination.

Apart from the vast differences throughout the country regarding prices, there are vast differences in how they want to work. For instance I have seen an escort who was only ever available for outcalls between 7 and 9 pm one day a week, three weeks a month. With the best will in the world she could only have one booking a week. There's loads of what you could class as 'stunners' who work very limited hours, they will always be there, mainly because the are part time and want a shag without the strings. 

There will always be paid sex sites and there will always be blokes who pay to view them, have a look at Chaturbate and see how much they get on there, fully clothed with the promise of flashing their tits the tokens never stop. I don't believe that any of theses sites will kill off escorts meeting in person.

[CardiffCentral]

I've paid for Onlyfans a couple of times. One girl was at uni with me and I was curious, didn't regret spending £5 for that. The other girl was someone who took candid shots of herseif at the same gym I go to! I was super curious who she was and spent £7 I think. It's not like I've spent £150 on a bait and switch or a bad punt, this is pret a manger money we're talking about. There are a couple of local escorts who also have OF accounts and they seem to be doing pretty well, I wouldn't blame them if they stopped escorting, I would.

If we were 18, female, a bit of a stunner and needed money, we'd jump at it with open arms. It doesn't take much for attractive girls to build up a following online, especially if they're not afraid to talk and vlog about themselves. You have to be a certifiable idiot to prefer sucking off old men for £80 a pop over making a quarter of a mil a year while traveling the world. I don't get why this is even a debate!! Being butt hurt about girls finding out a 'secret' way of not being prostitutes makes no sense at all. 

Heck, you don't have to even have an Onlyfans page, you can just do sponsored content on Instagram, Snapchat, Tiktok and whatever else is out there.

Escorting and porn are seen more and more as a liability to your social media career. When you escort you only have an interaction and a monetary transaction with one person at any given time and it's very personal, most likely not very positive either. Social media and OF et al allow you to scale up financial transactions massively whilst keeping your distance. I don't know why anyone would choose the former.

I think what will happen is girls who can't function as adults, who are damaged in some way or psychologically impaired, will just carry on escorting because they don't possess the skillset and discipline to make social media and/or OF work for them. 

The savvy ones will think it would be mad to do that sort of thing, especially when making money by being a social media personality is far easier and so much more lucrative.

 

[cotton]

Ive not used onlyfans but i have used sites where you get uk girls to do stuff for you. There is some truth to the "simp" notion because just out of self interest your going to get a better result complimenting the girl than insulting her , plus if shes young , pretty and genuinely pleasant and willing to do what you want then whats not to compliment her.
Plus as cardif says its relatively little money.
Personally i think it compliments hooking , i guess in the same way as watching porn , SA and whatever other resources to sexual gratification there are out there.
But i guess the OPs point was that the rise of onlyfans will rob us of impoverished hookers.  To some extent thats true , in the same way social security benefits have robbed us of thousands of women who would otherwise have to drop their knickers for a few quid. Im of a split mind on it really as i like the idea of there being loads of pragmatic hookers whoring because they need money but i can also appreciate the theoretical notion that its good women have other options.

[sparkus]

Ive not used onlyfans but i have used sites where you get uk girls to do stuff for you. There is some truth to the "simp" notion because just out of self interest your going to get a better result complimenting the girl than insulting her , plus if shes young , pretty and genuinely pleasant and willing to do what you want then whats not to compliment her.
Plus as cardif says its relatively little money.
Personally i think it compliments hooking , i guess in the same way as watching porn , SA and whatever other resources to sexual gratification there are out there.
But i guess the OPs point was that the rise of onlyfans will rob us of impoverished hookers.  To some extent thats true , in the same way social security benefits have robbed us of thousands of women who would otherwise have to drop their knickers for a few quid. Im of a split mind on it really as i like the idea of there being loads of pragmatic hookers whoring because they need money but i can also appreciate the theoretical notion that its good women have other options.

Are you saying you begrudge the existence of the welfare state because it stops women going on the game?

[cotton]

Are you saying you begrudge the existence of the welfare state because it stops women going on the game?

no

[Simmo87]

Onlyfans is only booming at the moment due to lockdown and tabloid newspapers running artices were they have cherry picked the facts to suit the headline or story, remember how when an escort is in the paper she is always nearly descrided as earning £1500 a night etc etc, how many night does she earn £1500 a night? not many I would guess

Like most things like this there will be a boom, a bust then things will return to near normal. This time next year when the £15,000 has been spent or there only fans subscribers have taken there money elsewere. A.W will seem quite an attractive option, and the oldest profession in the world will return to somthing like what is was before.

[ladiesman020]

I've subed to 40 odd girls over 20 months