'Hair metal'

[NIK]

Thought I'd start another music thread.

During my daily constitutionals the last few days I have been listening to Alice Cooper inspired by a post in the other thread. With box sets and one thing and another I probably have about 90% of Alice's extensive catalogue. Now, as suggested in the other thread, Alice's early 70's work, after the missteps of his first two albums, is easily his best, indeed I'd say it's up there with some of the best rock music ever recorded. However, he has also released some truly excellent albums this century. However, as I listened I can confirm his work from the late 70's throughout the 80's and 90's, was, with the odd exceptions here and there, mainly bollocks. Apparently it was classed as 'hair metal' which was predominant in the 80's.

Now I like rock and I like metal, but this genre is crap, and I am not sure why. Motley Crue are probably the most famous exponents (but there were many others) and I used to have a double compilation of theirs until I decided I only really liked a couple of tracks. I think they were huge as much for their image as their music.
Like Alice Cooper, Saxon were another excellent rock / metal band who after their excellent early 80's albums lost their way in the mid 80's and released this hair metal crap. From the 90's they re-found their mojo and again have released some excellent albums this century.
There are others, such as Def Leppard, who I have never liked and they too seem to epitomise this genre. I haven't heard anywhere near everything DL have done, but if their 'best' material is representative then I don't want to hear any more.

I was thinking as I clicked through Alice's poor stuff to get to his good stuff, what is it about hair metal that makes it crap for me? Is it the 80's production values? I don't know much about production, but I know the 80's production is generally denigrated. Or is it that the songs are just inferior? One thing I think most truly great rock music needs is dynamics, light and shade (tempo and chord changes) which of course punk lacked, but much of that was crap anyway. This hair metal stuff doesn't seem to have interesting dynamics, so maybe that's another reason I don't like it.
I am intrigued how bands such as Alice Cooper and Saxon can become crap and then get better again. Maybe it was just the 80's, because Bowie also went crap for much of the 80's before becoming better again. And even Bob Dylan employed 80's production values with the distinctive (and crap) drum sounds which were also unsuitable for the material.

[Kerosene]

There's a really good piece here about the influence of Van Halen. External Link/Members Only

Now those early Van Halen albums with David Lee Roth I do rate. But there is a lot of flashy guitar playing that became the vogue for the hair metal scene and to my mind it's more about an exhibition of technique rather than anything else. Playing a song as a showcase for a guitar solo rather than the solo being a part of a song.

Metal once it had become established and dare I say codified in the 70s was about heaviness, forceful and unrelenting. Sabbath grew up around factories and heavy industry and it shows in their sound; riffs sound like machinery. Hair metal was more about putting a pop influence in there and to my ears it falls between two stools, neither wholly pop nor wholly metal.

[mr.bluesky]

Add Bon Jovi to the list. Early stuff was quite good like slippery when wet , keep the faith etc but his last few albums have been instantly forgettable and although not a metal band you could say the same about U2.

[NIK]

Yes, I was going to mention Bon Jovi. Afraid I don't much like them. I have tried and used to own quite a few of their albums, but I only liked a few songs. Ultimately, I regard them similar to Def Leppard (although much better). They are certainly not metal, despite looking like a metal band, indeed some of their songs seem more country influenced.
Back in the mid 80's when they emerged I had lost all interest in new music so knew nothing about them and got them confused with Guns n Roses who emerged around the same time. Many years later when I got back into music I realised that the two were nothing like each other, Guns n Roses being a 'proper' rock band, although also not metal.

My only memory of BJ at the time was a girl in the office having a photo of John Bon Jovi on her desk. Another had Simon Le Bon of Duran Duran, and another even had one of Gazza, (hardly a pin up!)
I wonder if that kind of thing would be allowed now?

[FLYING BLUE]

I can't stand hair / glam metal - the likes of Hanoi Rocks, Motley Crue, Poison, Def Leppard etc etc were completely lost on me.

Referencing Alice Cooper (the individual, not the band) - after splitting from the original band, he released Welcome to my nightmare, essentially written by Hunter / Wagner / Ezrin which in itself was a fairy good rock album albeit overly theatrical, relying on elaborate live theatrics which went way beyond the grim & gritty theatrics of the original band - (vaudeville, dancing spiders, top hat & tails bollocks) - the music was now playing 2nd fiddle to the stage show.

Around this time AC was a 'functioning alcoholic' who was starting down the road of Cocaine and ended up in serious rehab twice, the 2nd time was life or death.

Shep Gordon has pretty much always kept AC in line regarding 'relevance in the market' and AC had become a star on his own, mingling with the likes of Elton John, Paul McCartney, Keith Moon etc
Future albums were made in order to fulfil record company contracts (Flush the Fashion, Zipper catches skin etc) and are bloody awful IMHO - AC trying to stay relevant, sounding like Gary Numan (clones), Elton John (from the inside), Bon Jovi (Poison) or whoever was popular at that time, even using the same producer to get 'that sound' - a singer/lyricist propped up by session musicians, albeit some very good ones (Hunter, Wagner, Davey Johnston, Kane Roberts, Kip Winger, Prakash John etc)

After finally breaking away from coke fuelled alcoholism, AC came back with some hair metal / bubble gum toons (constrictor, Raise your fist) but it wasn't until Brutal Planet that the transformation into full on Heavy Rock was back almost 360 degrees - Brutal Planet got me back on board with solo Alice.

IMHO - nothing Alice has done 'solo' has been anywhere close to the albums written & performed by 'Alice Cooper', the 5 piece band.

In the past 2-3 years, the original band (without GB) have played together on several occasions & relationships are once again, cordial.

It's a joy to see the original band on a stage together & I still listen to the early albums, Killer, Love it to death, etc as much now as I did in the 1970's.

[NIK]

I can't stand hair / glam metal - the likes of Hanoi Rocks, Motley Crue, Poison, Def Leppard etc etc were completely lost on me.

Referencing Alice Cooper (the individual, not the band) - after splitting from the original band, he released Welcome to my nightmare, essentially written by Hunter / Wagner / Ezrin which in itself was a fairy good rock album albeit overly theatrical, relying on elaborate live theatrics which went way beyond the grim & gritty theatrics of the original band - (vaudeville, dancing spiders, top hat & tails bollocks) - the music was now playing 2nd fiddle to the stage show.

Around this time AC was a 'functioning alcoholic' who was starting down the road of Cocaine and ended up in serious rehab twice, the 2nd time was life or death.

Shep Gordon has pretty much always kept AC in line regarding 'relevance in the market' and AC had become a star on his own, mingling with the likes of Elton John, Paul McCartney, Keith Moon etc
Future albums were made in order to fulfil record company contracts (Flush the Fashion, Zipper catches skin etc) and are bloody awful IMHO - AC trying to stay relevant, sounding like Gary Numan (clones), Elton John (from the inside), Bon Jovi (Poison) or whoever was popular at that time, even using the same producer to get 'that sound' - a singer/lyricist propped up by session musicians, albeit some very good ones (Hunter, Wagner, Davey Johnston, Kane Roberts, Kip Winger, Prakash John etc)

After finally breaking away from coke fuelled alcoholism, AC came back with some hair metal / bubble gum toons (constrictor, Raise your fist) but it wasn't until Brutal Planet that the transformation into full on Heavy Rock was back almost 360 degrees - Brutal Planet got me back on board with solo Alice.

IMHO - nothing Alice has done 'solo' has been anywhere close to the albums written & performed by 'Alice Cooper', the 5 piece band.

In the past 2-3 years, the original band (without GB) have played together on several occasions & relationships are once again, cordial.

It's a joy to see the original band on a stage together & I still listen to the early albums, Killer, Love it to death, etc as much now as I did in the 1970's.

Great analysis. 

You're right about 'that sound'. I think the song Poison, which unaccountably was a huge hit, sums that sound up. I have never liked the song. I do however really like the verse, but not the chorus, of Hey Stoopid.

[walras]

Like other posters, I wasn't keen on hair metal - I was into thrash. If hair metal has served one purpose, it is to make Steel Panther possible - they are gloriously funny and brilliant live.

I saw a few of them play live at festivals back in the day. WASP had a topless girl on stage and lots of fake blood - can't remember the music at all... however David Lee Roth was amazing at his peak (Van Halen and first two solo albums) and Bon Jovi (at least in 1987) surprised me by being a very good live band.

[FLYING BLUE]

Great analysis. 

You're right about 'that sound'. I think the song Poison, which unaccountably was a huge hit, sums that sound up. I have never liked the song. I do however really like the verse, but not the chorus, of Hey Stoopid.

No doubt helped along the way by the cameo in  'Wayne's World' 

[FLYING BLUE]

I never liked Bon Jovi - just not my style at all - my preference in heavy Rock, would have been for the likes of Uriah Heep, UFO, Scorpions, Gary Moore, Lizzy etc

Recently though, I have seen Aussie guitar girl, Orianthi on stage (live) with her boyfriend Richie Sambora - lead guitar in Bon Jovi - it was embarrassingly bad throughout because he was completely and utterly out of his head and couldn't play for shit.

She must have felt awful since she is very accomplished as a six stringer.

[winkywanky]

Love early Van Halen. Great music, brilliantly produced and recorded by Ted Templeman. How did they get that sound? So clean, but ballsy too. He also did The Doobie Bros of course, and you can hear it's the same sound. Much better than today's over-produced, over-compressed shit.

It all got far too Glam for me later on, it became a self-parody IMO.

[NIK]

I have just played Muscle of Love, which was the last and undoubtedly weakest of the original Alice Cooper band’s albums, however it is still tons better than most of the releases in the 80’s & 90’s and I do think the production has a lot to do with it. It is a ‘cleaner’ more ‘muscular’ sound. The ‘hair’ metal type production just sounds messy, and as has been said is ultimately neither pop nor rock. Def Leppards songs, which are poor anyway, all seem to sound like this.

[NIK]

Love early Van Halen. Great music, brilliantly produced and recorded by Ted Templeman. How did they get that sound? So clean, but ballsy too. He also did The Doobie Bros of course, and you can hear it's the same sound. Much better than today's over-produced, over-compressed shit.

It all got far too Glam for me later on, it became a self-parody IMO.

Not a great fan of Van Halen tbh. They were no more than a name to me in their hey day & like so many at the time completely passed me by. I think I only knew Jump, which isn’t really representative.
I do have the box set of all the first 6 albums, but what strikes me is how short their songs & albums are, especially considering he was a guitar virtuoso, you’d think he’d want to stretch out.
Having said that I do like DLRoth’s voice & love the song DOA on the second album. Just something about the way he sings it.

[winkywanky]

The first album, Van Halen, IMO is a classic.

Basically, pop songs played heavy, with a pop song length and pop song sensibility.

It came out at the height of Punk, it really was something fresh and new. They even covered You Really Got Me by The Kinks.

[Ahalfa Carling]

Gotta say that I love a bit of "Hair Metal".

Was lucky enough to see Van Halen with both DLR, then later Sammy Hagar as lead singer - both were good but they were VERY different bands - With DLR up front they were a good time trashy bar band that somehow made it good; with Hagar up front they were a lot more about the music and being professional.

never saw them with Gary whatshisname from Extreme fronting.

Problem is that there is a really confusing crossover with "Hair Metal" and "Glam Rock" - to me Alice Cooper is nowhere near "Hair Metal" but totally Glam.

Just my opinion.

[Scotpunter]

I'm another fan of 'Hair Metal'. There were some amazing bands around that era. One of the more obscure but an exceptional band imo were Manowar.

[NIK]

I'm another fan of 'Hair Metal'. There were some amazing bands around that era. One of the more obscure but an exceptional band imo were Manowar.

Yes, I have some Manowar albums. Although they dressed like poseurs I wouldn't really class them as hair metal, as their music was more muscular and in their own words 'true metal'. They did I believe have a claim to be the loudest band in the world and maybe that was the case live, but I find the production on their their records to be a bit 'thin'. Their sound doesn't actually seem to be as heavy as, for some examples: Metallica, Iron Maiden, Sabbath or the Swedish Sabbath influenced band Candlemass.

[MilleMiglia]

I once spoke to a guy at a concert, who'd seen Manowar live. He was your typical long haired biker type, and said that, when the band were playing, his hair was wafting in the breeze coming from the speakers. To think, I thought Motorhead were loud.

[FLYING BLUE]

I have just played Muscle of Love, which was the last and undoubtedly weakest of the original Alice Cooper band’s albums, however it is still tons better than most of the releases in the 80’s & 90’s and I do think the production has a lot to do with it. It is a ‘cleaner’ more ‘muscular’ sound. The ‘hair’ metal type production just sounds messy, and as has been said is ultimately neither pop nor rock. Def Leppards songs, which are poor anyway, all seem to sound like this.

Agreed, although 'Hard Hearted Alice' on that album, is really a stand out track (perhaps the only stand out track tho)...

[winkywanky]

I once spoke to a guy at a concert, who'd seen Manowar live. He was your typical long haired biker type, and said that, when the band were playing, his hair was wafting in the breeze coming from the speakers. To think, I thought Motorhead were loud.

Never stand in front of the bass bins 

[NIK]

Agreed, although 'Hard Hearted Alice' on that album, is really a stand out track (perhaps the only stand out track tho)...

I am still ploughing through my Alice collection as I upload music back into my itunes and try to work out what to upload from him and what to leave out and I have noticed another feature that makes the 'hair metal' production style sound cluttered and messy. On some songs there are female voices singing along in the background. This just seems unnecessary. He didn't use them or need them on his classic recordings.

[spiralnotebook]

You sick thing! 

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