Author Topic: In Guardian today - think on...  (Read 10924 times)

Offline Parsifal

UK urged to follow Nordic model of criminalising prostitution clients

External Link/Members Only

Festisio

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
The rozzer has it spot on saying:

"I personally think it would be very unhelpful. Instead of street prostitutes operating in quiet areas of the city they might have to operate in dark, unsafe areas," he said. "Also, it might be enforceable at a street level but as far as escorts are concerned it would be virtually unenforceable. If there is sex happening between consenting adults, I am not sure why the police would want to get involved."

I'd say it is unlikely to happen in the near future so am not concerned.


Offline smiths

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Forum Helper
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,134
  • Likes: 26
  •  
  • Reviews: 285
UK urged to follow Nordic model of criminalising prostitution clients

External Link/Members Only

There is another thread about this below. Street Prostitution here is already illegal of course both from WGs soliciting for business and punters kerb crawling so ACC Armitts comment on that make no sense to me. Its already enforceable to nick punters and WGs yet the reality is the street scene continues anyway despite the police knowing the where, when, why and sometimes who of it. It literally couldnt be easier to nick street WGs and kerb crawlers, yet the scene goes on, so thats a very good indication of how difficult it would be to nick punters punting off-street in comparison, that would take some police work, time, money and resources. Armitt also mentions the street scene moving from quiet areas to dark areas, some RLDs arent in quiet areas as it is now, some are in busy residential areas in reality.

I am glad Armitt has made his comments about the off-street scene, i agree totally it would be unenforceable and to even begin to nick off-street punters who punt with Indies who arent breaking the law themselves would cost a huge amount of money and need vast resources.

However, the aim of criminalising all punters is a crusade led by Harriet Harridan, clearly it doesnt need to make sense to her as she is far beyond having any common sense, she is a zealot that paid sex is wrong and exploitation so i have no doubt if she gets back in in 2015 she will do all she can to pass such a law. The fear of the consequences of such a law would no doubt scare at least some punters off and like her 2009 coercion law this is what it is actually about, not nicking punters. The police arent likely to get extra vast resources to nick punters and Armitt as a very senior officer has made his view crystal clear.

Long may Harridan and her ilk sing from a different hymn sheet to senior police officers, if they sing the same one thats when punters should start to seriously worry in my view. I also agree with Nikki Adams of the prostitutes collective who says any law wont stop prostitution, this is an absolute fact, i also agree it would make it less safe for both WGs and punters.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:57:07 pm by smiths »

Offline Dani

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Service Provider
  • Posts: 2,603
  • Likes: 2
  •  
It is one of the most stupid ideas there is.  All it will do is push it underground which means there will be a demand for trafficked girls as those of us who choose to do this would just stop.  This would cause so much harm to so many.  The best thing for things like this si to be out in the open.  If they want a law it should be that all of us have to be licensed and visiting a non licensed girl would be cause for prosecution.  A trafficked person would never get a license as they would not be eligible to work in the UK.
It would also get rid of the nasty pimps and keep parlous in order too.  Licenses could be charged at £500 a year but can be taken away at anytime if there were multiple complaints of theft etc.  To keep a license we would have to have regular health checks and have a safe work environment.  it would make keeping order much simpler and would then ensure every prossie paid tax as well as worked in a safe way without clients getting robbed and would also mean everyone would be aware that we could call the police If necessary  the government would make loads of money from licenses as well as from tax and could also charge for GUM tests so more money for them.

To me that would make much more sense than trying to bring in an unenforceable law.  Shit if they can do it with the whole security industry they could do it with us as well.  It would pretty much stop the need for trafficked women as clients would not want to take the risk of seeing non licensed girls so would be safer all round for everyone.  Yeah I know it will never happen but one can hope and wish.

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
If they want a law it should be that all of us have to be licensed and visiting a non licensed girl would be cause for prosecution.  A trafficked person would never get a license as they would not be eligible to work in the UK.
It would also get rid of the nasty pimps and keep parlous in order too.  Licenses could be charged at £500 a year but can be taken away at anytime if there were multiple complaints of theft etc.  To keep a license we would have to have regular health checks and have a safe work environment.  it would make keeping order much simpler and would then ensure every prossie paid tax as well as worked in a safe way without clients getting robbed and would also mean everyone would be aware that we could call the police If necessary  the government would make loads of money from licenses as well as from tax and could also charge for GUM tests so more money for them.



 :thumbsup:

That´s exactly how it works in my home country, and it works well for both sides  :)

Offline smiths

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Forum Helper
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,134
  • Likes: 26
  •  
  • Reviews: 285

 :thumbsup:

That´s exactly how it works in my home country, and it works well for both sides  :)

Really. Are services like DFK and OWO on offer and what kind of rates are charged, is it like here where the rates range from £60 an hour upwards?

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Everything is on the menu, just like here.
The rates  are depending on the location (city) Girls who are working on the street or in a brothel (not illegal) will charge about €100/hour. Independent WG´s are slightly more expensive than in the UK, they are very rare in my country, most of WGs are working in a brothel or nightclub.

Offline smiths

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Forum Helper
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,134
  • Likes: 26
  •  
  • Reviews: 285
Everything is on the menu, just like here.
The rates  are depending on the location (city) Girls who are working on the street or in a brothel (not illegal) will charge about €100/hour. Independent WG´s are slightly more expensive than in the UK, they are very rare in my country, most of WGs are working in a brothel or nightclub.

Thanks.  :hi:

Jason

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Everything is on the menu, just like here.
The rates  are depending on the location (city) Girls who are working on the street or in a brothel (not illegal) will charge about €100/hour. Independent WG´s are slightly more expensive than in the UK, they are very rare in my country, most of WGs are working in a brothel or nightclub.

Hi Mara. Are you from Greece by any chance? I punted in Greece (Athens mostly) many times and the rates you suggest and the name “Mara” sound Greek. The funny thing is that in Greece many brothels are not truly licensed but when caught the only law consequence they have is to pay a fine which is way lower than the income they make from 1 day of operation. So they simply re-open and continue fearless. The good thing in Greece is that because prostitution is regulated all WGs (even those in unlicensed brothels) get tested very regularly in GUM clinics and get a health certificate which sometimes brothels are very proud to show to their clients.

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
No Jason, I am not from Greece but the regulations seem to be similar to ours, regular health checks (once a week) otherwise the girl will lose her licence. The majority of brothels are licensed and only allowed to have girls working there who can provide a weekly updated health certificate, otherwise they would risk to be closed down for good. Of course, like in every country not everyone is playing by the rules but the regulations help to reduce crimes, scams and health risks.

Offline Jerboa

No Jason, I am not from Greece but the regulations seem to be similar to ours, regular health checks (once a week) otherwise the girl will lose her licence. The majority of brothels are licensed and only allowed to have girls working there who can provide a weekly updated health certificate, otherwise they would risk to be closed down for good. Of course, like in every country not everyone is playing by the rules but the regulations help to reduce crimes, scams and health risks.

So what is your home country then Mara?

And Dani how would having licenced hookers stop traffiking, you said these girls wouldn't be eligible to work here, not true, British girls can also be traffiked not just foreigners, even having a licence which isn't a bad idea won't stop non licenced girls working or punters seeing these illegal girls, money talks and blokes think with their dicks.

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest

Offline Jimmyredcab

It is one of the most stupid ideas there is. 

There is a lot of total ignorance on this subject.

It was discussed on LBC radio a few days ago, one brain dead feminist said that no woman would be a prostitute out of choice which is total cobblers.

Then a man phoned in to say that earnings from prostitution can't be taxed, also total cobblers --- some ladies are registered with HMRC, not many I admit.     :hi:

Jason

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Austria

After your response that your are not from Greece, I was really thinking that you were from Hungary. But from Austria? That is surprising. I have been in Vienna too many times and Austrian working girls are rare to be found even in Austria. Most WGs in Austria are foreigners (Romanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians) – especially those working in brothels. Even “high class” escorts can be brought more easily from Slovakia (Bratislava) - just charging extra €50 for travelling.

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Austrian working girls are rare to be found even in Austria. Most WGs in Austria are foreigners (Romanians, Bulgarians and Hungarians) – especially those working in brothels. Even “high class” escorts can be brought more easily from Slovakia (Bratislava) - just charging extra €50 for travelling.

Well, our population is tiny, that´s the main reason why Austrian girls are rare  ;)
I think the reason why foreign girls prefer to work in Austria, especially in Vienna, is simply because they can charge far more than in their home country. The wages is Austria are high and they know that. The second reason may be that it is a safe place to live and to work. The same applies for the UK, it´s a much better place for a Romanian girl to live and work in the UK than in their own country.

pierrot

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
I suspect it may be to late to get a major legislation change like this on the statute book this parliament, if Labour win the next election I suspect it will really raise its ugly head then.
 :diablo:

dilettante

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Well, our population is tiny, that´s the main reason why Austrian girls are rare  ;)
I think the reason why foreign girls prefer to work in Austria, especially in Vienna, is simply because they can charge far more than in their home country. The wages is Austria are high and they know that. The second reason may be that it is a safe place to live and to work. The same applies for the UK, it´s a much better place for a Romanian girl to live and work in the UK than in their own country.

Aber wenn man in Oesterreich arbeitet, wuerde man nicht furchten, eine widerwillige Gefangene werden und im Keller jahrzehntenlang wohnen muessen? ;-)

Offline munterhunter

A few years ago police policy was to target the street prostitutes arrested them got them a fine in court. How did the girls pay the fine by going back to work on the streets.

The current "Thinking" of targeting the punters has been tried before in a number of areas of the country with naming and shaming kerb crawlers in the paper this has included several fairly high ranking police officers local councillors etc.

Police in a number of towns such as Leeds have targeted parlours and closed them down. This has forced women to continue working in places less safer than the parlours that were closed.

People like Harriet Harman jump on the bandwagon and make statements like "no woman would voluntarily be a prostitute" well some are!!   Politicians like Ms Harman have no real interest in the welfare of Working Girls they will "prostitute themselves and their values" with a dodgy expenses claim or to get publicity and attention by spouting misinformed rubbish such as this.

Why are are applying victorian legislation  to a situation that has been in existence for centuries.

There needs to be some control to prevent trafficking, exploitation of the young and vulnerable and to provide a degree of safety for the ladies. You will never stop the WG's or Punters. If the authorities won't go as far as legalising prostitution then they should follow a policy of tolerance where girls can work safely and without hassle in designated areas and parlours.

Offline smiths

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Forum Helper
  • ****
  • Posts: 18,134
  • Likes: 26
  •  
  • Reviews: 285
A few years ago police policy was to target the street prostitutes arrested them got them a fine in court. How did the girls pay the fine by going back to work on the streets.

The current "Thinking" of targeting the punters has been tried before in a number of areas of the country with naming and shaming kerb crawlers in the paper this has included several fairly high ranking police officers local councillors etc.

Police in a number of towns such as Leeds have targeted parlours and closed them down. This has forced women to continue working in places less safer than the parlours that were closed.

People like Harriet Harman jump on the bandwagon and make statements like "no woman would voluntarily be a prostitute" well some are!!   Politicians like Ms Harman have no real interest in the welfare of Working Girls they will "prostitute themselves and their values" with a dodgy expenses claim or to get publicity and attention by spouting misinformed rubbish such as this.

Why are are applying victorian legislation  to a situation that has been in existence for centuries.

There needs to be some control to prevent trafficking, exploitation of the young and vulnerable and to provide a degree of safety for the ladies. You will never stop the WG's or Punters. If the authorities won't go as far as legalising prostitution then they should follow a policy of tolerance where girls can work safely and without hassle in designated areas and parlours.

Good post. Of course prostitution isnt illegal here, yet, only certain forms of it, the street scene, coercion, underage girls and brothels with the owner and staff excluding the WGs unless actively running the brothel the ones breaking the law, not punters or the WGs who just solely work as WGs in the brothel.

That thinking isnt the present thinking of the coalition as the statement by the Home Office spokeswoman in the link given clarifies, they arent even considering any changes. Plus ACC Armitt the police lead on prostitution made clear his view that enforcing off-street prostitution would be unenforceable AND he sees no problem with what consentual adults do. IMO thats a bold statement for him to make, it doesnt correlate with what some senior officers think like Kevin Hyland, who is very anti prostitution.

The thinking is very much politics wise a Harridan driven crusade backed by her ilk in the media, Julie Bindel and others. Only after 2015 if Labour gets back in with a workable majority and she is put back in a position to continue her crusade could such a law be passed. Clearly passing a law to criminalise all punters is one thing and bound to scare some off punters understandably so, but that in no way means the police will enforce that law, or might in some asreas and not in others. As it stands they certainly havent the resources to nick punters enmasse, many hundreds of millions of pounds extra would have to be given to them. I think that is very highly unlikely to happen, and we will end up like with Harridans coercion law where its been about scaring punters off, not nicking punters, in fact i have still to hear of ONE case of prosecution/conviction for it.

I cant see brothels being legalised in the short to medium term, so i think the best we can get is tolerance by the police as happens in many areas now.

Finally and crucially the police cant even stop the already illegal street scene despite it being the most easy thing to nick kerb crawlers if they so wished to. They choose to do these naming and shaming purges in some areas from time to time but the next night the WGs and punters are back. So its proven that even the most easy way of nicking punters is not affective. And the same with the most easy way to nick those that run brothels, in some areas they just dont bother letting some operate for years. Armitt i assume is a smart guy and knows all this, and he will no doubt also know the police work involved to nick a punter who punts with an Indie who under our current law are working legally if always alone would involve those huge additional resources.

overhead

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
There is a lot of total ignorance on this subject.

It was discussed on LBC radio a few days ago, one brain dead feminist said that no woman would be a prostitute out of choice which is total cobblers.

Then a man phoned in to say that earnings from prostitution can't be taxed, also total cobblers --- some ladies are registered with HMRC, not many I admit.     :hi:

I don't think prostitutes should be taxed. It should be tax exempt. The money gets recycled anyway. It's like taxing someones pension.

Mara

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Aber wenn man in Oesterreich arbeitet, wuerde man nicht furchten, eine widerwillige Gefangene werden und im Keller jahrzehntenlang wohnen muessen? ;-)

Good point, but she wasn´t a WG, she was his own child, very sad story  :(

Offline Silver Birch

I don't think prostitutes should be taxed. It should be tax exempt. The money gets recycled anyway. It's like taxing someones pension.

Huh?? ALL money gets recycled. Does this mean that the money I SPEND on prostitutes should be tax free too  :unknown:

Sailormack

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest

 :thumbsup:

That´s exactly how it works in my home country, and it works well for both sides  :)

But since this goes against the UK Matriarchy, then it ain't gonna happen.

Right  :unknown:

Sailormack

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest

People like Harriet Harman jump on the bandwagon and make statements like "no woman would voluntarily be a prostitute" well some are!!   Politicians like Ms Harman have no real interest in the welfare of Working Girls they will "prostitute themselves and their values" with a dodgy expenses claim or to get publicity and attention by spouting misinformed rubbish such as this.


Why not pass a law that only prostitutes could become politicians  :unknown:

That would work  :cool:

dilettante

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Good point, but she wasn´t a WG, she was his own child, very sad story  :(

Yes, there was the Fritzl family, also Natasha Kampusch who spent 8 years in captivity.  I skimmed through her biography recently, also very sad, the abuse she suffered* - she turned to her captor for affection because there was nobody else.  I hope the rest of her life makes up for it.

Anyway thanks for the reply and good to see you're as Austrian as old Adolf himself! ;)

* I should point out, this wasn't explicitly sexual, more physical eg beatings
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 12:25:14 pm by dilettante »

Offline Jimmyredcab

I don't think prostitutes should be taxed. It should be tax exempt.

Yes, along with income from taxi driving.     :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Sailormack

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest

Offline Ramrod

Thats a bit rich coming from person who wanted to legalize under age sex.

BristolP

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Thats a bit rich coming from person who wanted to legalize under age sex.
??
I'm lost. :unknown:


jcdmj12

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
A good reason to hope the current lot stay in power. The Tories will never ban buying sex (too many of them are dirty buggers, and they've managed to keep the radfems out of their ranks), and their economic policies mean that there are plenty of women needing extra cash.  :D

Knick

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
That didn't stop them passing the porn block. Traditional conservatives are just as interested in controlling access to sex and the harridans of this world. But they do so out of support for the "importance of family" and marriage.

Nimrod

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
I haven't read this thread closely but as someone who spends about 50% of his time living in Sweden, I can tell you that the law they have there appears to be very effective. Trying to get laid for money, at least in Stockholm and/or Gothenburg is extremely difficult. So far as I can tell, whatever else the ramifications of their legal set up, it has not resulted in an unsafe underground/streetwalking scene either. Or if it has, I certainly haven't found it (and not for want of trying). It may be to my chagrin, but the Swedish model of punter prosecution -- if indeed you want to rid society of punting -- seems to do a pretty good job.

By the way, if anyone has insight into how I can get laid there, please let me know :-)

Offline Jerboa

So Nimrod do Swedish wives actually perform their duties and shag hubby more than every leap year? :)

Offline punk

I haven't read this thread closely but as someone who spends about 50% of his time living in Sweden, I can tell you that the law they have there appears to be very effective. Trying to get laid for money, at least in Stockholm and/or Gothenburg is extremely difficult. So far as I can tell, whatever else the ramifications of their legal set up, it has not resulted in an unsafe underground/streetwalking scene either. Or if it has, I certainly haven't found it (and not for want of trying). It may be to my chagrin, but the Swedish model of punter prosecution -- if indeed you want to rid society of punting -- seems to do a pretty good job.

By the way, if anyone has insight into how I can get laid there, please let me know :-)

easy go to denmark.

jcdmj12

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
That didn't stop them passing the porn block. Traditional conservatives are just as interested in controlling access to sex and the harridans of this world. But they do so out of support for the "importance of family" and marriage.

The porn block had nothing to do with porn and everything to do with putting a mechanism in place to censor the Internet - have you seen some of the other stuff that gets blocked? 

Offline Mr Farkyhars

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Banned
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Likes: 1
  •  
  • Reviews: 4
The porn block had nothing to do with porn and everything to do with putting a mechanism in place to censor the Internet - have you seen some of the other stuff that gets blocked?

It did have something to do with porn. Don't be silly.
Banned reason: Nothing in. 7 years
Banned by: Iloveoral

Nemo

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Google  Harriet Harman PIE

Glad to see someone else wanting to keep this story going. The Mail did a usefully full account of it recently:

External Link/Members Only

They've all done their best to airbrush it out of their CVs.

Nimrod

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
easy go to denmark.

If you're so geographically challenged that you think going to Denmark when you're in Stockholm is a viable way of getting laid then you must be an American :-)

Offline Mr Farkyhars

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Banned
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Likes: 1
  •  
  • Reviews: 4
If you're so geographically challenged that you think going to Denmark when you're in Stockholm is a viable way of getting laid then you must be an American :-)

Isn't there "The Bridge" to get there?
Banned reason: Nothing in. 7 years
Banned by: Iloveoral

Offline Mr Farkyhars

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Banned
  • Posts: 1,337
  • Likes: 1
  •  
  • Reviews: 4
I haven't read this thread closely but as someone who spends about 50% of his time living in Sweden, I can tell you that the law they have there appears to be very effective. Trying to get laid for money, at least in Stockholm and/or Gothenburg is extremely difficult. So far as I can tell, whatever else the ramifications of their legal set up, it has not resulted in an unsafe underground/streetwalking scene either. Or if it has, I certainly haven't found it (and not for want of trying)

There are interesting threads, and even more interesting links within them, on that subject in the Pro$$ienet forum under the overall heading 'Legalities and Legislation'.
Banned reason: Nothing in. 7 years
Banned by: Iloveoral

Nimrod

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
Isn't there "The Bridge" to get there?

Yes. From Malmo. Which is about 500 miles or so (without looking it up) from Stockholm.

Offline unclepokey

Just a bit further up this thread there's a bit about taxation.
I simply wanted to add that in retirement I'm doing what I can to reduce the nephews and nieces inheritance but also, since my residual estate looks set to be at least three times the nil-rate Inheritance Tax (IHT) band - even allowing for a slug of care home costs,  every £100 spent on punting reduces the Treasury's eventual IHT take by £40.

Call me a bit odd if you like but as a long-term tax avoider (not evader, I stress) this pleases me.

Uncle Pokey

Offline punk

If you're so geographically challenged that you think going to Denmark when you're in Stockholm is a viable way of getting laid then you must be an American :-)

no i know where both are but seeing that you have been as you said living in sweden,than you would know that it is usually a trip to denmark or finland.  :hi:

Online myothernameis


Then a man phoned in to say that earnings from prostitution can't be taxed, also total cobblers --- some ladies are registered with HMRC, not many I admit.


If the selling of sex was criminalized, when the escort goes to declare her earnings for tax, this might even cause its own problems

Tax office: where did the money come from, and who gave it to you

Escort: Joe blogs gave me the money, but it was only for my time

Offline punk


If the selling of sex was criminalized, when the escort goes to declare her earnings for tax, this might even cause its own problems

Tax office: where did the money come from, and who gave it to you

Escort: Joe blogs gave me the money, but it was only for my time

Thats be fair as soon as the rich socialist get in whoring will be illegal so its off to brothel land aka Germany  :D

Offline mh

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Forum Helper
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,987
  • Likes: 31
  •  
  • Reviews: 53

If the selling of sex was criminalized, when the escort goes to declare her earnings for tax, this might even cause its own problems

Tax office: where did the money come from, and who gave it to you

Escort: Joe blogs gave me the money, but it was only for my time

I don't believe HMRC have ever asked me what I do to earn my money. They only care how much I earned. Why should they ask a WG?  :unknown:

Of course they do have to know about a person to tax them and if they work exclusively in cash that relies on them registering as self-employed or as an employer with HMRC for PAYE. (or is it EAYF for them)?

Offline Qwerty


If the selling of sex was criminalized, when the escort goes to declare her earnings for tax, this might even cause its own problems

Tax office: where did the money come from, and who gave it to you

Escort: Joe blogs gave me the money, but it was only for my time

My Dad used to be a lawyer, and he told the story of a Soho club owner who had a problem that one of his significant running costs was police bribes, which he wanted to be tax-deductible. He was advised that the Revenue are only interested in the amounts, and they are, or at least were at the time, not allowed to pass this info to anyone else. He duly submitted the expense claim, and got a letter back accepting it, but asking the names of any officers receiving more than £X so they could be assessed for tax :-)

Aspen

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest

If the selling of sex was criminalized, when the escort goes to declare her earnings for tax, this might even cause its own problems

Tax office: where did the money come from, and who gave it to you

Escort: Joe blogs gave me the money, but it was only for my time

It's ridiculous. I don't think they should be taxed on one to one transactions anyway.

jcdmj12

  • Age Check : 18+
  • Guest
It's ridiculous. I don't think they should be taxed on one to one transactions anyway.

I always pay cash where I can. It's often cheaper, and if they can get away without declaring it, good luck to them.  The less tax gets collected, the weaker the state becomes.