Stating Its Not A Brothel On Their Site/What Is A Brothel.

[smiths]

This is primarily aimed at newbie punters not aware, or others who aren't but want to punt at sex parties and other brothels.

Earlier today I read a positive review on The Phoenix Club which is a sex party based in London, I looked at the TPC site and was amazed to see it state it was a lifestyle club not a brothel, and it even said sex wasn't for money. So its clear ALL sex parties that charge punters in exchange for sex as TPC does ARE  brothels.

With TPC a punter books them and pays £160 for 2 hours punting with the WGs who are their, the money doesn't go directly to the WGs, its given to the pimp or their helper, the idea is the WGs get their cut of the money. This money is obviously in exchange for sexual contact with WGs.

A brothel could be raided and closed at any time the police choose, simply by sending a cop in posing as a punter where he pays and then gets offered sexual services. Punters unaware need to know this information in my view rather than just relying on what a site says, as in this case its bollocks.

For fairness reasons I also checked the party providers Bellas Belles based in Sutton, London and their site basically says the money paid is to cover expenses, in reality the money goes to paying the WGs and presumably the pimp/s and for use of the premises. But I didn't see them clearly say they weren't a brothel

I then checked LAPC parties also in the London area and I didn't see them state it wasn't a brothel either. In their case they hire or have use of a Spa in the Romford area 1 night a week, this Spa lets swingers in so they aren't WGs, but LAPC do lay on 8-10 WGs on for this party. If anyone can be bothered please check out other party providers sites and see what they state, and perhaps post it on this thread if you can be bothered.

The police will know where all established brothels are and that advertise for punters, they may not choose to raid but they could at any time. Unless it was proved a WG or WGs were underage and/or being coerced/forced punters ARENT breaking the law punting their, as aren't any of the WGs as long as they don't actively help run the brothel like book punters in for example. Its the pimps and helpers who are breaking the law.

This also goes for other non party brothels. Because a site or one of the WGs or pimps says its not a brothel, they are lying, it is if more than 1 WG ever uses the same premises even on another day on her own. Even a group of WGs with no pimp working out of the same premises makes it a brothel and the WGs could get raided.

So to sum up my advice is don't just take what a site says as fact, or what a pimp or WG tells you as regards a party provider or any brothel. On here where the punter comes first the truth will always be given.

[mh]

Without going into details, the way they handle the payments (assuming they still do it the same way as at LMP) does protect them (somewhat) from the "payment for sex" accusation.

[JamesKW]

LAPC is a bit different to the others,as you know the organiser keeps a very low profile and may as well be one of the punters.It is not run in the same way as Phoenix as in to keep the punters happy,the girls do very much what they want and can take breaks.This means that most of the punters can say that they assumed it was just a greedy girl night at the spa and that's why they paid a slightly higher entry fee.Most of the girls have been at LAPC for many years so are obviously happy to be there.Also many of the punters are from Africa and Asia so if the police raided it would be an administrative nightmare.

[smiths]

LAPC is a bit different to the others,as you know the organiser keeps a very low profile and may as well be one of the punters.It is not run in the same way as Phoenix as in to keep the punters happy,the girls do very much what they want and can take breaks.This means that most of the punters can say that they assumed it was just a greedy girl night at the spa and that's why they paid a slightly higher entry fee.Most of the girls have been at LAPC for many years so are obviously happy to be there.Also many of the punters are from Africa and Asia so if the police raided it would be an administrative nightmare.

Last time I went John WAS one of the punters except he was shagging one of his WGs in a locked room. The point about it being a brothel stands, even the Paradise Spa itself used to run or still does run coffee mornings and laid on WGs who were paid to be their to punt. The Spa due to what it offers can get away with saying but we offer a sauna etc as well. The police may not be bothered to raid it of course. TPC is just a premises for partying in, no Spa set-up.

The punters aren't breaking the law as I am sure none of the LAPC WGs are underage and/or being coerced/forced, same I assume at TPC and Bellas, there is no need to use underage or coercion/force as plenty of willing WGs. In fact I have never seen a London party provider pimp done for using underage and/or coerced/forced WGs. Its been the usual, running a brothel, controlling prostitutes for gain and money laundering, or a mixture of in the main.

[smiths]

Without going into details, the way they handle the payments (assuming they still do it the same way as at LMP) does protect them (somewhat) from the "payment for sex" accusation.

Its paid upfront now so I read, someone please correct me if I am wrong. So punters give the money to a pimp or a pimps helper, that makes it legally worse for the pimp than giving the money direct to the WG as its definitely the case a third party is involved in the process. All the police would need is evidence the pimp is given the money by punters either at the start or on exit, if its on exit I assume the cop would have to pretend to be a watcher only for the whole 2 hours before he gets to see the pimp being paid by punters. And with all parties I have been to including LMP this was always done in front of other people, in fact we used to form an unorderly queue.

And even if its still pay on exit I always paid Moss never the WGs so again legally a third party was involved. Paying the WGs direct would be a smarter way of doing it in my view, and for them too agree what cut to hand over, but no party I have ever been to does that that has had a pimp running it. But if I punt in any other non party brothel I always pay the WG direct and she hands over an agreed cut to the pimp presumably.

[JamesKW]

Last time I went John WAS one of the punters except he was shagging one of his WGs in a locked room. The point about it being a brothel stands, even the Paradise Spa itself used to run or still does run coffee mornings and laid on WGs who were paid to be their to punt. The Spa due to what it offers can get away with saying but we offer a sauna etc as well. The police may not be bothered to raid it of course. TPC is just a premises for partying in, no Spa set-up.

The punters aren't breaking the law as I am sure none of the LAPC WGs are underage and/or being coerced/forced, same I assume at TPC and Bellas, there is no need to use underage or coercion/force as plenty of willing WGs. In fact I have never seen a London party provider pimp done for using underage and/or coerced/forced WGs. Its been the usual, running a brothel, controlling prostitutes for gain and money laundering, or a mixture of in the main.

With LAPC in most cases it can be considered that it is a very long time ago that these girls were underaged,I suspect the average is about 30 to 40 years old.Also I wouldn't be surprised if most of those that turn up even know it is an LAPC night,as there is no need to book,it is just turn up on the night and the spa offer a similar setup at other times.I think any promotion is largely word of mouth.Sometimes I think its the girls that boss John about

[vt]

Yes, I think we covered this topic before.

All the party outfits are 'brothels' in a legal sense, it matters not one jot what they say on their website, whether they have spa tubs or not, whether they call themselves swingers clubs, sauna clubs, private members clubs, gentlemens clubs or whatever, or even whether the organiser jumps in and masquerades as a punter. What matters is what goes on inside...

'A brothel is defined as "a place where people of opposite sexes are allowed to resort for illicit intercourse, whether the women are common prostitutes or not". It is not essential to show that the premises are in fact used for the purposes of prostitution (which involves payment for services rendered); a brothel exists where women offer sexual intercourse without charging.'

Quote lifted from:

External Link/Members Only

Interesting that definition as it would catch all 'genuine' swingers clubs too, ie. even if females are offering sex there without charging.

[vt]

And if someone can be shown to be managing it or assisting with its management, that's where the offence lies.

[smiths]

Yes, I think we covered this topic before.

All the party outfits are 'brothels' in a legal sense, it matters not one jot what they say on their website, whether they have spa tubs or not, whether they call themselves swingers clubs, sauna clubs, private members clubs, gentlemens clubs or whatever, or even whether the organiser jumps in and masquerades as a punter. What matters is what goes on inside...

'A brothel is defined as "a place where people of opposite sexes are allowed to resort for illicit intercourse, whether the women are common prostitutes or not". It is not essential to show that the premises are in fact used for the purposes of prostitution (which involves payment for services rendered); a brothel exists where women offer sexual intercourse without charging.'

Quote lifted from:

External Link/Members Only

Interesting that definition as it would catch all 'genuine' swingers clubs too, ie. even if females are offering sex there without charging.

It may have been covered before, firstly many topics have been covered before, that doesn't mean they cant be covered again, and secondly who knows how many punters may of joined and are reading UKP since it was covered before. And thirdly a small number of them may be unaware that parties are brothels and go on the bollocks the pimp/s posts on their site/s, and in TPCs case they actually state its NOT a brothel and even say its not cash for sex.

This shit isn't going to stop TPC getting raided if the police choose to do so, so fuck knows why they say it on their site. And why the 2 others Bellas and LAPC don't that I could see, Bellas saying the money is for expenses which I said its too pay the WGs, pimps and for premises in reality.

[smiths]

And if someone can be shown to be managing it or assisting with its management, that's where the offence lies.

I covered that in my first post, I thought in a bit of detail. But to clarify for the hard of reading and/or understanding yes its the managing of a brothel and anyone who helps in it such as booking punters in who are breaking the law, not the punters or WGs, unless its proved 1 or more of the WGs is underage and/or being coerced/forced, which is a scenario I have never heard a party provider get done for. They don't need to use underage WGs or coerced/forced ones, and I have never knowingly suspected any WG/s at a party was underage or being coerced/forced.

 And that includes ones run by total scum like GP was before it got done and closed. They got done and were subject to a POCA order.

[geezer_breezer]

I've never been to any of these places but a few use the phrase "private members club". Perhaps the door fee is actually a membership or subscription fee. Do you have to fill out a form or leave details?

[vt]

I've never been to any of these places but a few use the phrase "private members club". Perhaps the door fee is actually a membership or subscription fee. Do you have to fill out a form or leave details?

If there's sex inside they are still brothels in the legal sense no matter what it says over the door.

They may hold some kind of local authority licence to serve alcohol and/or provide entertainment which also requires them to hold details of registered members. Of course, no local authority would license them to sell sex on the premises. While they keep their noses clean, the breaches of any licence seem to be tolerated, but that could no doubt change at any time.

The worrying thing about this type of establishment is that they often want real-life details off you, some photo ID and proof of address, not something I would be willing to hand over to what are essentially pimps.

When I punt or attend a party I want to be as anonymous as possible, so a punting alias, a punting email address and an punting mobile is all they ever have off me.

[drwho]

Writing guests' names in a book seems to be a common attempt at some kind of legal loophole that I'm extremely doubtful would stand up in court after a raid has taken place.

Paradise Spa do it on the door (private membership?)
Likewise Bellas and LSAP both have their Lists of guests as
you enter the premises.

I remember having to give a name that was duely noted down in a book everytime I visted a number of massage/gentleman's clubs in Manchester.

I also remember Emily refering to a list of members and their phone numbers at LMP Westminster.
I've only been to TPC 3 times near Hyde park but each time I simply walked straight in and wasn't asked if I'd booked or not.
I was given the impression you could get away with walking off the street without booking once you knew the address. Perhaps they still had a handwritten list of names and numbers hidden away somewhere to produce as suppossed evidence of being a private club in the event of a raid.

[smiths]

Writing guests' names in a book seems to be a common attempt at some kind of legal loophole that I'm extremely doubtful would stand up in court after a raid has taken place.

Paradise Spa do it on the door (private membership?)
Likewise Bellas and LSAP both have their Lists of guests as
you enter the premises.

I remember having to give a name that was duely noted down in a book everytime I visted a number of massage/gentleman's clubs in Manchester.

I also remember Emily refering to a list of members and their phone numbers at LMP Westminster.
I've only been to TPC 3 times near Hyde park but each time I simply walked straight in and wasn't asked if I'd booked or not.
I was given the impression you could get away with walking off the street without booking once you knew the address. Perhaps they still had a handwritten list of names and numbers hidden away somewhere to produce as suppossed evidence of being a private club in the event of a raid.

There is no doubt whatsoever in the case of a sex party where a punter pays a pimp to punt with WGs, its a brothel, there is no loophole, its pimp propaganda if they say otherwise, no signing a book or anything else stops it being a brothel whatever the pimp may tell punters. Its all very simple the police send a cop in undercover and once he is offered sexual contact in exchange for his cash that's all the evidence they need to establish its a brothel and raid it if they choose to.

Obviously none of the punters are breaking the law unless it was proved 1 or more of the WGs were underage and/or being coerced/forced. Neither are the WGs breaking the law unless they help the pimp run the brothel such as booking punters in.

Even a premises where money hasn't changed hands can still be a brothel which covers swingers clubs. It all comes down to whether the police choose to raid these places. Certainly sex parties like GP and Sacred Rose where punters paid the pimp were both raided and closed by the police, at the time GP was working out of a swingers club premises in Hackney Wick. The owner and one of his fellow pimps were both convicted of various offences. Saying its not a brothel is a pimps attempt to fool punters.

[vt]

Writing guests' names in a book seems to be a common attempt at some kind of legal loophole that I'm extremely doubtful would stand up in court after a raid has taken place.

Paradise Spa do it on the door (private membership?)
Likewise Bellas and LSAP both have their Lists of guests as
you enter the premises.

I remember having to give a name that was duely noted down in a book everytime I visted a number of massage/gentleman's clubs in Manchester.

I also remember Emily refering to a list of members and their phone numbers at LMP Westminster.
I've only been to TPC 3 times near Hyde park but each time I simply walked straight in and wasn't asked if I'd booked or not.
I was given the impression you could get away with walking off the street without booking once you knew the address. Perhaps they still had a handwritten list of names and numbers hidden away somewhere to produce as suppossed evidence of being a private club in the event of a raid.

Having a list of names won't save anyone from prosecution if they are involved in managing a 'brothel' and the Police decide to raid and the CPS bring a prosecution based on any evidence gathered. I don't mind giving an alias if they ask for one to keep tabs on who's booked or not, but no-one in this business gets my real name or details.