Smart meters - are they safe?

[daviemac]

No.

With a smart meter they don't need to gain entry to your property to do it.

So you don't actually know what the procedure is before it comes to the last resort of disconnecting supply. 

If you have a ‘smart meter’
If you have a smart energy meter in your home, your supplier could potentially disconnect your supply remotely without needing access to your meter. However, before they do this, they must have:

contacted you to discuss options for repaying your debt, eg through a repayment plan

visited your home to assess your personal situation and whether this would affect you being disconnected, eg if you’re disabled or elderly

If they don’t do this and they try and disconnect you, make a complaint to your supplier.

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[PumpDump]

It would take a while for them to hack into every smart meter one by one and I'm sure Russia or China will have more important things to worry about.

It wouldn't if all had the same vulnerability. Once they figured out how to exploit the vulnerability in one, it would be very easy to do to all the others. As RandomGuy99 pointed out, a vulnerability could be used by a hostile state to cause absolute chaos.

[RandomGuy99]

So you don't actually know what the procedure is before it comes to the last resort of disconnecting supply. 

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A hacker doesn't need to come to your house to assess your situation. They just send the message from the computer system down to your smart meter to remotely disconnect you.

[advent2016]

Bigclive did a tear down some years ago.  A lot of paranoid people are worried about the remote contactor that can potentially disconnect your electricity supply but there are few cases of it actually being used. If you want an EV charger than a smart meter is essential to get time base rates

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[akauya]

I only skim read this thread but some posts are beginning to make me feel a bit paranoid - maybe I should be getting a 'punting smart meter' now - you know privacy and all that

[RedKettle]

A hacker doesn't need to come to your house to assess your situation. They just send the message from the computer system down to your smart meter to remotely disconnect you.

I perhaps need to make you aware that someone could force entry to a door or window of your house and sneak in and pinch stuff.  You really should brick them all up to make sure that never happens.

Just because there may be a theoretical risk does not mean we should be eliminating all risk.  I manage to cross the road most days.

[advent2016]

I only skim read this thread but some posts are beginning to make me feel a bit paranoid - maybe I should be getting a 'punting smart meter' now - you know privacy and all that

Well played. Something that made me laugh out loud today.

[RandomGuy99]

I perhaps need to make you aware that someone could force entry to a door or window of your house and sneak in and pinch stuff.  You really should brick them all up to make sure that never happens.

Just because there may be a theoretical risk does not mean we should be eliminating all risk.  I manage to cross the road most days.

I agree, which is why in my original post on this thread I said they were safe.  They seem to have had the design checked and it was shown to be secure.  There will always be risks and they just need to be managed. That's life.

[daviemac]

It wouldn't if all had the same vulnerability. Once they figured out how to exploit the vulnerability in one, it would be very easy to do to all the others. As RandomGuy99 pointed out, a vulnerability could be used by a hostile state to cause absolute chaos.

A hacker doesn't need to come to your house to assess your situation. They just send the message from the computer system down to your smart meter to remotely disconnect you.

I think I'll leave you two sitting in your house in your tinfoil hats worrying about someone going to all the effort that would be required to hack into your smart meter for absolutely no benefit to them.

So a hacker manages to disconnect my supply, all I do is contact the supplier and they come and reconnect it or even do it remotely. Massive effort required by the hacker for zero effect or gain. 

[The_Don]

On my 3rd one. None have worked properly. They still message me asking to send meter readings cos they can't read them.
Someone is making a huge amount of money swapping them over

I've avoided getting any fitted so far (on principle). For a number of reasons, I prefer a meter to just count units and no more. 

They should be sending people around to read meters like they used to IMO (I know a meter reader and they have a few stories     ) But some want more profit hence they are slowly contracting out works (that spending some of that money) and having more control (or lack of in some cases).

I'm now submitting my readings every 1 to 3 months if I don't like the look of an estimated unit usage (and they can get it wrong). 

Suppliers will be able to use the data to change consumer energy prices as much as 48 times per day, opening the door to surge pricing at peak times. This could mean people using energy in peak times, such as the early evening, are charged significantly more than those using power overnight

Energy suppliers can switch off energy supply remotely through a smart meter, but there are strict rules about when they are allowed to do this. The same consumer protections apply to those with smart meters and traditional meters. Suppliers cannot disconnect any customers without first taking all reasonable steps to help them repay their debts and are not allowed to cut off supply for certain vulnerable consumers

[RandomGuy99]

I think I'll leave you two sitting in your house in your tinfoil hats worrying about someone going to all the effort that would be required to hack into your smart meter for absolutely no benefit to them.

So a hacker manages to disconnect my supply, all I do is contact the supplier and they come and reconnect it or even do it remotely. Massive effort required by the hacker for zero effect or gain.

Unless of course they also lock everyone else of the system after they've done it, so you can't undo it remotely and getting around 50,000 to manually reset them might take a while.

[daviemac]

Unless of course they also lock everyone else of the system after they've done it, so you can't undo it remotely and getting around 50,000 to manually reset them might take a while.

Give your head a wobble mate, you can't seriously believe what you are posting.

BTW do not reply, like I have already stated I do not suffer fools gladly and some of the posters on this thread take foolishness to the extreme.

[nuckingfuts]

I manage to cross the road most days.

Cross?

Ah feck…explains the deja-vu every time I go to get fags 🤦‍♂️

[RandomGuy99]

Lockout attacks 2024 so far

I really don't like it when mods threat people for expressing an opinion.

It could be that other people might know more about the area than the mods.

I thought we were having a useful and helpful discussion. Apparently that's not allowed.

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[RandomGuy99]

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I am not saying that the UK smart meters are a serious risk, but risks are there and I am sure that state controlled hackers are always testing security of important computer systems and not necessarily to attack them immediately, but to understand what vulnerabilities exist so they could be exploited in the future or for industrial espionage, which various states including France publicly declare as one of the functions of their intelligence services.

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[PumpDump]

I think I'll leave you two sitting in your house in your tinfoil hats worrying about someone going to all the effort that would be required to hack into your smart meter for absolutely no benefit to them.

So a hacker manages to disconnect my supply, all I do is contact the supplier and they come and reconnect it or even do it remotely. Massive effort required by the hacker for zero effect or gain.

I am not worried at all believe me. We are having a light-hearted chat about how theoretically the meters could be hacked. Probably very unlikely it would happen. I really don't understand why you are being so contrary? 

[PumpDump]

Give your head a wobble mate, you can't seriously believe what you are posting.

BTW do not reply, like I have already stated I do not suffer fools gladly and some of the posters on this thread take foolishness to the extreme.

Ok, I just read this. For clarification are you telling us, with your mod hat on, that we are no longer allowed to talk about this?

[daviemac]

Ok, I just read this. For clarification are you telling us, with your mod hat on, that we are no longer allowed to talk about this?

I'm telling you not to reply to me as a member as far as I'm concerned you and your mate are at the very least idiots who can't even get the facts right before quoting the bullshit you are posting.

As a mod I am beginning to think you are trolls posting to get whatever reaction you can get.

[PumpDump]

I'm telling you not to reply to me as a member as far as I'm concerned you and your mate are at the very least idiots who can't even get the facts right before quoting the bullshit you are posting.

As a mod I am beginning to think you are trolls posting to get whatever reaction you can get.

To you as member, firstly it was you who replied to me and involved yourself in the conversation. It is a fact that any electronic device can be hacked. Which is what the OP asked. Are they safe? Most likely. Can they be hacked? It is possible. I simply replied to what the OP asked. I really don't understand why you felt the need to disagree with what is a fact; any electronic device can be hacked.

To you as a mod, I am not a troll. I express my opinion, which quite often turns out to be the opposite of yours. That doesn't make me a troll. What is the point of having a discussion forum if you don't have a group of people with all different opinions? It is what makes it interesting.

[daviemac]

Lockout attacks 2024 so far

I really don't like it when mods threat people for expressing an opinion.

It could be that other people might know more about the area than the mods.

I thought we were having a useful and helpful discussion. Apparently that's not allowed.

Do not make unfounded accusations against me, as a mod I have at no time threatened anyone for expressing an opinion, you are, yet again, twisting things to suit your own agender.

To clarify so there is no misunderstanding, as a member I am telling you and your mate I have no wish to enter into any discussions with either of you.

I have already made it clear on this thread that I have not been posting as a mod,

The site ethos is to offer members help, guidance and encouragement and that is what all the mods do, however I personally, as a member, do not suffer fools gladly, if you don't like the way I reply to you save your communications with me for moderation issues and don't involve yourself in any discussions I have with others.

something both of you are choosing to ignore however in order to substantiate your accusation I'm telling you to show where I have suppressed any opinion in my capacity as a mod.



 

[RandomGuy99]

Give your head a wobble mate, you can't seriously believe what you are posting.

BTW do not reply, like I have already stated I do not suffer fools gladly and some of the posters on this thread take foolishness to the extreme.

What do you call this?

You are perfectly entitled to express an opinion as are we.

[advent2016]

Interesting article from full-fact regarding remote disconnection
External Link/Members Only

some snippets
According to Citizens Advice, it’s rare for suppliers to disconnect customers and they’re more likely to fit a prepayment meter, which requires you to pay for your energy before you use it, either online or via a card or key in person.

I've asked Octopus if they've ever done so and they say no. Maybe a FOI (Freedom of Information) request might get better answers although energy suppliers may withhold information for a variety of legitimate reasons


Who can’t be disconnected?

If you’ve reached State Pension age, energy suppliers can’t disconnect your supply between 1 October and 31 March if you live alone or you only live with other people of state pension age or children under 18.

If the supplier has signed up to the Energy UK Vulnerability Commitment (which British Gas and EDF amongst others have), they won’t disconnect people of any age between the dates above if you live with children under 16, or at any time of year if you are disabled, have long term health problems, have severe financial problems or live with children under six.

[RandomGuy99]

Interesting article from full-fact regarding remote disconnection
External Link/Members Only

some snippets
According to Citizens Advice, it’s rare for suppliers to disconnect customers and they’re more likely to fit a prepayment meter, which requires you to pay for your energy before you use it, either online or via a card or key in person.

I've asked Octopus if they've ever done so and they say no. Maybe a FOI (Freedom of Information) request might get better answers although energy suppliers may withhold information for a variety of legitimate reasons


Who can’t be disconnected?

If you’ve reached State Pension age, energy suppliers can’t disconnect your supply between 1 October and 31 March if you live alone or you only live with other people of state pension age or children under 18.

If the supplier has signed up to the Energy UK Vulnerability Commitment (which British Gas and EDF amongst others have), they won’t disconnect people of any age between the dates above if you live with children under 16, or at any time of year if you are disabled, have long term health problems, have severe financial problems or live with children under six.

I think we're all happy that if suppliers follow the processes and understand your circumstances then it's very unlikely to happen.

I think the discussion we were having was that the ability to do a remote disconnect exists in the meters and the central computer system. If a hacker was to gain access to the central computer system then they could theoretically issue remote disconnects to as many meter as they fancied. They wouldn't need to follow any business process or get a court order or anything else before they did it.  It's a risk. Probably a very small one. Nobody was suggesting it was going to happen anytime soon or that an energy supplier would misuse it. We were talking about hackers.

[daviemac]

What do you call this?

You are perfectly entitled to express an opinion as are we.

That was me telling you not to reply to me as a member but that doesn't suit your agenda.

Where as a moderator have I told you not to voice an opinion.

[RandomGuy99]

That was me telling you not to reply to me as a member but that doesn't suit your agenda.

Where as a moderator have I told you not to voice an opinion.

I have no agenda.

Generally I think you and the forum helpers do a great job managing us lot. It's just sometimes it can appear that you are trying to control friendly banter and that might just be misinterpreting what you've written. It is sometimes hard to tell when you're replying with your mod hat on and when you're replying as just another member.

Thanks for the explanation.

I guess we're allowed to continue our discussion then.

[dynatron]

no they are crap give shit readings and sometimes catch fire only get one if you are taken in by the hype

[RandomGuy99]

no they are crap give shit readings and sometimes catch fire only get one if you are taken in by the hype

But wasn't that true of the old meters too?

[daviemac]

I have no agenda.

Generally I think you and the forum helpers do a great job managing us lot. It's just sometimes it can appear that you are trying to control friendly banter and that might just be misinterpreting what you've written. It is sometimes hard to tell when you're replying with your mod hat on and when you're replying as just another member.

Thanks for the explanation.

I guess we're allowed to continue our discussion then.

I can assure you it will be obvious if I'm posting as a mod.

[RedKettle]

Generally I think you and the forum helpers do a great job managing us lot.

To be clear forum helpers have no authority and no role in managing anybody!  We just help keep the place tidy, personally I tend to index reviews.  If we for example change a review rating it will only be when the OP asks for it to be changed.   

[Thephoenix]

I'm a bit bored today.

I feel like being mischievous and creating some real mayhem.

Trouble is I can't decide whether to try and hack into GCHQ or the mother in law's Smart meter.

PS.....memo to GCHQ, MI5/6 etc.....I'm only joking!

[nearlypastit1234]

Id be asking the question. Why are they being pushed so much. Especially in this day and age. Big brother watching your every move, everywhere. So its a no from me

[puntingking]

can someone (anyone?) tell me what would be the need for anyone to hack your smart meter?

I don't care how much energy my next door neighbour is using? I don't need to care and I don't need to know when they are using their energy 

[RandomGuy99]

can someone (anyone?) tell me what would be the need for anyone to hack your smart meter?

I don't care how much energy my next door neighbour is using? I don't need to care and I don't need to know when they are using their energy 

The main thing they could do is disconnect you or change your tariff, which could cause disruption to customers and extra costs or lost revenue to energy suppliers.

Looks like it has happened in the past

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[RandomGuy99]

Id be asking the question. Why are they being pushed so much. Especially in this day and age. Big brother watching your every move, everywhere. So its a no from me

They're being pushed so much because:

1. They reduce the need for customers to read their meter.  Saves you the inconvenience of reading your meter and may help people with disabilities or mobility issues to read their meter. Helps energy companies as they no longer need to send our new bills when someone objects to their estimated bill and provides their own readings. I know when I was a student I used to play the game of getting an estimated bill and then waiting until the red bill arrived and then submitting actual meter readings. That could buy me 3 or 4 weeks before I had to pay the bill. With a smart meter you can no longer play this game, which is good for energy companies

2. Reduce the need for meter readers to read your meter.  Saves the energy companies money

3. It gives the grid operator and power generation companies a better view of the consumption of energy in different geographic areas and at different times of the day which will allow them to better match supply to predicted demand. That's why they encourage you to allow them to collect 48 reads a day, so they have a view every 30 minutes of your energy consumption. This information will allow them to identify areas where they need to invest in more equipment in the grid to make it more reliable to allow avoid power cuts.

4. No more estimated bills. You pay for what you've actually used. Good for customers, but there is an initial hit by way of the standing charge for improving the grid.

5. It enables energy companies to offer tariffs where you pay less for shifting your energy consumption to a different day or time of day.  For example, moving use of the washing machine or tumble dryer or EV charging to the early hours of the morning where there is little demand for energy but there is energy on the grid available to be used.  This saves money for customers and helps the energy generation companies who have to supply a certain of energy to the grid regardless of whether it's being used or not.

[DastardlyDick]

Interesting article from full-fact regarding remote disconnection
External Link/Members Only



Who can’t be disconnected?

If you’ve reached State Pension age, energy suppliers can’t disconnect your supply between 1 October and 31 March if you live alone or you only live with other people of state pension age or children under 18.

If the supplier has signed up to the Energy UK Vulnerability Commitment (which British Gas and EDF amongst others have), they won’t disconnect people of any age between the dates above if you live with children under 16, or at any time of year if you are disabled, have long term health problems, have severe financial problems or live with children under six.

Well that's me 'safe' on two counts then! 

[JontyR]

I've asked Octopus if they've ever done so and they say no. Maybe a FOI (Freedom of Information) request might get better answers although energy suppliers may withhold information for a variety of legitimate reasons

Not least that they aren't a pubic body and aren't obliged to respond to FOI requests.