Is this justice for rape ? (Albeit by boys aged 14)

[badsin]

Indeed
ignorantia juris non excusat (ignorance of the law excuses no one),

There are unfortunately examples where this ignorance of the law has allowed rapist's to avoid custodial sentences 

[PilotMan]

There are unfortunately examples where this ignorance of the law has allowed rapist's to avoid custodial sentences 

Have you got any source material for these examples?

[DastardlyDick]

I am not a Lawyer, far from it, but my understanding of Rape is that it's sexual penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina 'without consent or reckless as to consent' or to put it in plain English 'I don't care, I'm fucking him/her anyway'.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

That French lady Gisele Pellicot has commented on the case, as well she might poor woman!..

External Link/Members Only

[bigden40]

Have you got any source material for these examples?

There are examples, but the point is overstated. 

The most notable one is probably the Adil Rashid case. He got a 2-year suspended sentence for unlawful sex with a 13 year old with the defence basically being that his Islamic upbringing made him ignorant of the law. This was hugely controversial at the time in the same way as the recent Hampshire case.  The sentence wasn’t reviewed though.

Other than that it’s been used in some recent migrant sexual offence cases, albeit unsuccessfully, in an attempt to mitigate sentencing.

[bigden40]

I am not a Lawyer, far from it, but my understanding of Rape is that it's sexual penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina 'without consent or reckless as to consent' or to put it in plain English 'I don't care, I'm fucking him/her anyway'.

Add “with a penis” to your definition and you’re there.

Rape can only be committed by a male. Penetration with something other than a penis is “sexual assault by penetration”

[Snagbadjer]

I couldn't give a F less what their IQ was - a rope, a nice thick tree branch, and some cheering as they dangle.

[Adoniron]

There are unfortunately examples where this ignorance of the law has allowed rapist's to avoid custodial sentences 

There are none where it has allowed them to avoid conviction.

[DastardlyDick]

There are none where it has allowed them to avoid conviction.

I think that's what people are missing - these 2 have been found guilty of rape, but the Judge, for whatever reason, has gone to some lengths to avoid a Custodial Sentence, which, from my reading of the Law, means they either don't appear on ViSOR or it's much reduced. It appears that, had they been Adults, it would have been 5 years, but it's reduced by half for children.

[Strawberry]

There are none where it has allowed them to avoid conviction.

I am under the impression 'reasonable' belief can be used in some circumstances eg paying for sex with someone who is 16 or 17.

[bigden40]

There are none where it has allowed them to avoid conviction.

There is the case I referenced a couple of posts up.

In 2013, Adil Rashid, an 18-year old from Birmingham, pleaded guilty to sexual activity with a 13-year-old girl he met on Facebook (statutory rape). He claimed his Islamic schooling left him ignorant of consent laws and respect for women. Nottingham Crown Court Judge Michael Stokes gave a suspended sentence, calling him naive and immature, saying jail would do more harm than good.

External Link/Members Only

[Jerboa]

There is the case I referenced a couple of posts up.

In 2013, Adil Rashid, an 18-year old from Birmingham, pleaded guilty to sexual activity with a 13-year-old girl he met on Facebook (statutory rape). He claimed his Islamic schooling left him ignorant of consent laws and respect for women. Nottingham Crown Court Judge Michael Stokes gave a suspended sentence, calling him naive and immature, saying jail would do more harm than good.

External Link/Members Only

If Mr Rashid doesn't understand western law and culture, deport him.

[PilotMan]

The most notable one is probably the Adil Rashid case. He got a 2-year suspended sentence for unlawful sex with a 13 year old

A slight difference with this case is that it was statutory rape. The girl was willing, but she was under age.

[PilotMan]

If Mr Rashid doesn't understand western law and culture, deport him.

Where to, back to his birth country?

Oh, isn't that the UK?

[bigden40]

If Mr Rashid doesn't understand western law and culture, deport him.

To where?  He’s British.

[bigden40]

A slight difference with this case is that it was statutory rape. The girl was willing, but she was under age.

That’s really no defence. The law is designed to protect children from consenting to things that harm them that they do not have the capacity to consent to.

[Jerboa]

To where?  He’s British.

And there lies the problem, Is Joanna Lumley Indian?

[bigden40]

And there lies the problem, Is Joanna Lumley Indian?

Really?

[Jerboa]

Really?

Really, Joanna was born in India, she is not Indian, the goverment of India did not give her Indian nationality.
Many migrants 1st, 2nd & 3rd generation have assimilated into British culture and respect our laws, a minority don't, if they refuse to, what do we do with them?
If a British born man doesn't understand you can't go around raping underage teen non Muslim girls/boys, can you educate him? Or is he better living in a culture he would be more at home with?

[bigden40]

Really, Joanna was born in India, she is not Indian, the goverment of India did not give her Indian nationality.
Many migrants 1st, 2nd & 3rd generation have assimilated into British culture and respect our laws, a minority don't, if they refuse to, what do we do with them?
If a British born man doesn't understand you can't go around raping underage teen non Muslim girls/boys, can you educate him? Or is he better living in a culture he would be more at home with?

I’m aware that Joanna Lumley was born in India whilst her father served in the Army there.

My “really?” was aimed at the paucity of your argument. The extra points you’re making here don’t improve it.

[Jerboa]

I’m aware that Joanna Lumley was born in India whilst her father served in the Army there.

My “really?” was aimed at the paucity of your argument. The extra points you’re making here don’t improve it.

I'm making the argument, you might not agree with it.

[Snagbadjer]

If Mr Rashid doesn't understand western law and culture, deport him.

Better yet, let him keep his own cultural practice and have his head lopped off.

[PepeMAGA]

A slight difference with this case is that it was statutory rape. The girl was willing, but she was under age.

After he groomed her.

[Jerboa]

Better yet, let him keep his own cultural practice and have his head lopped off.

Head lopping off unless doing it to nobles is a little to sharia compliant for me, a short rope and a long drop would do the same job.

[RedKettle]

I'm making the argument, you might not agree with it.

I think that across several threads you have shown yourself to be an unpleasant person.  Just making the argument, you might not agree with it.

[Jerboa]

I think that across several threads you have shown yourself to be an unpleasant person.  Just making the argument, you might not agree with it.

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

[finn5555]

I think that across several threads you have shown yourself to be an unpleasant person.  Just making the argument, you might not agree with it.

Do what I do ignore the uneducated troll. He is here to cause trouble maybe even to get people banned who may take the bait.

As has been mentioned he feels untouchable and can post what he wants and maybe that’s true but we will never know.

You have to rise above these idiots 

[Jerboa]

Do what I do ignore the uneducated troll. He is here to cause trouble maybe even to get people banned who may take the bait.

As has been mentioned he feels untouchable and can post what he wants and maybe that’s true but we will never know.

You have to rise above these idiots 

I make a argument, instead of debating the point I made I'm called unpleasant, who is the idiot or troll here?

[Snagbadjer]

Head lopping off unless doing it to nobles is a little to sharia compliant for me, a short rope and a long drop would do the same job.

If it's a short rope, how would it be a long drop? But ofc I agree. Hang the ****.

[PilotMan]

If a British born man doesn't understand you can't go around raping underage teen non Muslim girls/boys, can you educate him?

So raping Muslim girls is OK?

[PilotMan]

Or is he better living in a culture he would be more at home with?

So what do you say about any person that assimilates themselves in to a gang culture and goes around targeting innocent people and stealing their Rolex's off their arm.

That's not respecting a western way of life or culture, where do we deport them to?

[Jerboa]

So raping Muslim girls is OK?

No it certainly is not.

[Jerboa]

So what do you say about any person that assimilates themselves in to a gang culture and goes around targeting innocent people and stealing their Rolex's off their arm.

That's not respecting a western way of life or culture, where do we deport them to?

If they’re foreign nationals yes deport, they’re scum but are they in the league of child rapists?

[PilotMan]

If they’re foreign nationals yes deport, they’re scum but are they in the league of child rapists?

Mr Rashid was not a foreign national, yet you said we should deport him?

You're not making sense.

We do frequently deport convicted and unconvicted criminals as a matter of course.

[Jerboa]

Mr Rashid was not a foreign national, yet you said we should deport him?

You're not making sense.

We do frequently deport convicted and unconvicted criminals as a matter of course.

The point I’m making and it’s starting to be discussed in Europe, is should 2nd or 3rd generation migrants who have full citizenship be denaturalised if they commit serious crimes like rape, and their defence is they didn’t understand it was a crime, because of their culture. Already this has happened to ISIS members and ringleaders of the Rochdale rape gang who had dual nationality, were ordered to be deported, still hasn’t happened yet.

[PilotMan]

The point I’m making and it’s starting to be discussed in Europe, is should 2nd or 3rd generation migrants who have full citizenship be denaturalised if they commit serious crimes like rape,

You mean the point you wanted to make, but didn't, because it might reveal your real agenda.

[DastardlyDick]

If it's a short rope, how would it be a long drop? But ofc I agree. Hang the ****.

The "long drop" was the UK method of execution for many years. It works by breaking the neck. It's quite complex as the executioner has to work out the length of rope needed, based on the condemned person's weight. Get it wrong, you'll either rip the head off or just end up with the condemned sitting at the bottom with multiple injuries. The Home Office used to had a document known as "The Book of Drops" to help.
The short drop just slowly strangled the condemned and they used to jerk around at the end of the role for several minutes which got names like "the tyburn jig".

[Jerboa]

You mean the point you wanted to make, but didn't, because it might reveal your real agenda.

Yes I'm making the point, it's a discussion section of a forum. A few years ago I agreed with the government taking away Shamina Begum's citizenship, today I think they shouldn't, unless they wish to disclose her intelligence file to the public, what did she do that was so bad that she's a danger to the country? I'm not saying Adil Rashid should have his citizensip removed, I'm saying there should be a discussion, how do you educate a adult man who didn't know that sex with a girl of 13 was illegal? Was Begum's crimes worse than Rashid?

[PilotMan]

how do you educate a adult man who didn't know that sex with a girl of 13 was illegal?

This was a complete bullshit excuse, and everyone knows it.

Only the defence would disagree 

[Jerboa]

This was a complete bullshit excuse, and everyone knows it.

Only the defence would disagree 

We would say that, but it worked on the judge.

‘The school he attended, it is not going too far to say, can be described as a closed community and on this occasion this was perpetuated by his home life.

In other interviews with psychologists, Rashid claimed he had been taught in his school that ‘women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground’.

[bigden40]

Yes I'm making the point, it's a discussion section of a forum. A few years ago I agreed with the government taking away Shamina Begum's citizenship, today I think they shouldn't, unless they wish to disclose her intelligence file to the public, what did she do that was so bad that she's a danger to the country? I'm not saying Adil Rashid should have his citizensip removed, I'm saying there should be a discussion, how do you educate a adult man who didn't know that sex with a girl of 13 was illegal? Was Begum's crimes worse than Rashid?

By detaining him at His Majesty’s pleasure for an appropriate number of years, with his fellow residents educating him on the lack of social acceptability of his crimes. 

And you did imply that his citizenship should be removed when you said he should be deported knowing that he was a a British national.

[Doc Holliday]

I make a argument, instead of debating the point I made I'm called unpleasant, who is the idiot or troll here?

Claiming you are here to debate and everyone just want to respond with ad hominem replies is a very tired and weak troll cliche.

Anyway congratulations .. the bait has been taken again and you have taken a very serious current topic at a tangent into your 'muslim/immigration/deportation' etc agenda. Not relevant to this court case.

[Jerboa]

Claiming you are here to debate and everyone just want to respond with ad hominem replies is a very tired and weak troll cliche.

Anyway congratulations .. the bait has been taken again and you have taken a very serious current topic at a tangent into your 'muslim/immigration/deportation' etc agenda. Not relevant to this court case.

It's called a debate bruv, it's not off topic, should people like Rashid get deported? Begum lost her citizenship.

[RedKettle]

It's called a debate bruv, it's not off topic, should people like Rashid get deported? Begum lost her citizenship.

I suspect we would all agree that he should have been properly punished, which was the relevant point for the discussion. But many of us do not agree with deporting British citizens.  However you wanted to divert onto your nasty views so took it off at a tangent, nothing to do with justice or the poor girls being discussed, but all to do with your hatred for a particular group. You are a foaming at the mouth extremist in my opinion. Does that back up my earlier comment enough for you? I was ok leaving it as a casual comment but you asked for more.

[Doc Holliday]

It's called a debate bruv,

No its not, la.

It is about your personal agenda and 'repeated derailing of threads or provoking arguments'.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=252893.msg4470963#msg4470963

I notice you have just cast more deliberate bait in the Politics thread. Not very subtle.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=339931.msg4470895#msg4470895

[finn5555]

No its not, la.

It is about your personal agenda and 'repeated derailing of threads or provoking arguments'.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=252893.msg4470963#msg4470963

I notice you have just cast more deliberate bait in the Politics thread. Not very subtle.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=339931.msg4470895#msg4470895

You’re right Doc I don’t know what his ultimate agenda is but he severely lacks any form of intelligence which could explain his radicalised, racist and delusional posts 

[Doc Holliday]

You’re right Doc I don’t know what his ultimate agenda is but he severely lacks any form of intelligence which could explain his radicalised, racist and delusional posts 

I would not say he lacks intelligence at all ... quite the opposite. By suggesting such just feeds his "I am the victim here" card.

[finn5555]

I would not say he lacks intelligence at all ... quite the opposite. By suggesting such just feeds his "I am the victim here" card.

Valid point actually. I don't see his posts now popped him on ignore 

[DastardlyDick]

You’re right Doc I don’t know what his ultimate agenda is.

Probably trousering a minimum of just under £99k for doing as little work as possible, plus one of the best Pensions avaiable, like the rest of Reform's MPs.

[Jerboa]

I suspect we would all agree that he should have been properly punished, which was the relevant point for the discussion. But many of us do not agree with deporting British citizens.  However you wanted to divert onto your nasty views so took it off at a tangent, nothing to do with justice or the poor girls being discussed, but all to do with your hatred for a particular group. You are a foaming at the mouth extremist in my opinion. Does that back up my earlier comment enough for you? I was ok leaving it as a casual comment but you asked for more.

My nasty views? I'm sure you have a opinion on Shamina Begum, is it right she is stripped of British citizenship for joining ISIS? In the past I would have said yes, I don't know now, what were her crimes? The government should be more transparent. I'm not foaming at the mouth btw.