Author Topic: Money laundering  (Read 2521 times)

Offline Pennine Rover

Given the recent police clampdown on "Turkish" barbers, Vape shops and nail bars, I wonder if the same issue affect massage parlours and touring Roms and Brazilians

Offline RandomGuy99

Yes, it affected massage places too.

Online southcoastpunter

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the action was primarily aimed at business establishments payinmg into a bank account much more cash (much, much more) than would be expected from a business of that sort, that size with that sort of footfall etc.

whilst some massage places might fall into that category, i suspect that its more the individuals working there that get the "cash" rather than the business itself. That has other implications but not so much of "money laundering"

Online scutty brown

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Given the recent police clampdown on "Turkish" barbers, Vape shops and nail bars, I wonder if the same issue affect massage parlours and touring Roms and Brazilians

It's certain that many/most of the increase in Chinese massage parlours over the last few years is due to a need by the OCGs to find a money laundering route for their takings from drugs, people trafficking & protection rackets. They simply overdeclare the parlour turnover and so legitimise the dirty cash by paying it into the parlour bank account.

Touring Roms and Brazilians not declaring earnings is something completely different. They'll just be taking the cash and smuggling it out of the country using Western Digital, Easycash or similar
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 03:37:59 pm by scutty brown »

Offline RandomGuy99

It's certain that many/most of the increase in Chinese massage parlours over the last few years is due to a need by the OCGs to find a money laundering route for their takings from drugs, people trafficking & protection rackets. They simply overdeclare the parlour turnover and so legitimise the dirty cash by paying it into the parlour bank account.

Touring Roms and Brazilians not declaring earnings is something completely different. They'll just be taking the cash and smuggling it out of the country using Western Digital, Easycash or similar
However, as has been seen in recent weeks, over declaring causes HMRC to spot something strange is going on and then the police come knocking.

Offline catweazle

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Using legitimate cash- based businesses to launder dirty money is well known. About 20 years ago I heard of a local pet shop being used  to place dirty money.
It all fell apart when they went from banking a few thousand a month to banking ( in the morning extreme instance) £58,000 a month - a small independent pet shop suddenly increasing takings 20 fold.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 04:02:14 pm by catweazle »

Offline chrishornx

Using legitimate cash- based businesses to launder dirty money is well known. About 20 years ago I heard of a local pet shop being used  to place dirty money.
It all fell apart when they went from banking a few thousand a month to banking ( in the morning extreme instance) £58,000 a month - a small independent pet shop suddenly increasing takings 20 fold.

well that would be a bit of a giveaway

Online DastardlyDick

Given the recent police clampdown on "Turkish" barbers, Vape shops and nail bars, I wonder if the same issue affect massage parlours and touring Roms and Brazilians
They're probably also looking for "undocumented workers" overstayed etc. It has been alleged that these "American Candy" shops are well at as far as money laundering is concerned.

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It's certain that many/most of the increase in Chinese massage parlours over the last few years is due to a need by the OCGs to find a money laundering route for their takings from drugs, people trafficking & protection rackets. They simply overdeclare the parlour turnover and so legitimise the dirty cash by paying it into the parlour bank account.

Touring Roms and Brazilians not declaring earnings is something completely different. They'll just be taking the cash and smuggling it out of the country using Western Digital, Easycash or similar

It's much harder to launder cash use money transfer services than it has been, even doing bank transfers is a challenge. Foreign banks will often withhold funds and not release them, until you can provide a legitimate proof of source - they will probably ask the SP for wage slips etc. Most Brazilian banks seem to have a no returns policy, if you don't provide the required proof (i.e. wage slips etc), they don't return the funds. That applies to both money transfer services and direct bank transfers.

I can see why OCG's would go to the lengths of setting up "front" businesses. Business accounts with large inflow of funds, are less likely to get questioned. In the past they would have channelled the money through an individual account (using a stooge), but this is very hard to do now and gets spotted quickly once the flow of cash starts to add up.

The whole money laundering thing, whilst understandable, is slowing things down.

I'm struggling to make both legitimate bank to bank transfers and via payment services. In the past couple of months I have made two transfers to Chinese Companies using Currencies Direct ($13K USD and $21K USD). The money came from my personal bank account. I had to prove with paperwork where the money came from. This was followed up by having a telephone interview with someone from CD. I had to explain what the money was for, did I know the company, was I associated with them. I then had to explain why I was buying what I was buying.

In the past month I've had two UK bank transfers halted using my Revolut personal account. One was was to a UK limited company for £1,400 who have been established for over 30 years. The transaction was flagged up as fraudulent. I had to complete an online questionnaire and the money was held up for over 24 hours, and I had to provide a copy of their invoice. For the personal transfer, I got stuck in some never ending loop about the money being invested in a scam job offer. It took two days to resolve.

I did a much smaller ($550 USD) transfer to a new Chinese Company last week, direct from my Revolut bank account, it went straight through.

I know that some of this is to prevent APP fraud scams, but the receivers were both long standing UK bank account holders.

I never have these issues when sending money from my MetroBank Business account.

Online Mr Garmin

About 30+ years ago it was well known that organised crime was buying up large taxi operations (minicabs) in certain big cities to launder their drugs money.  It was perfect as they will have been legitimately banking large sums of cash anyway so a few thousand more wouldn't stand out.

They won't be able to do that now as much of it is card and it would be very unusual for a large company to insist on cash in this day and age.

Offline mrwhite

About 10 years ago it was sunbed shops in and around Glasgow for laundering drug money.

There were some that were banking so much cash that every sunbed in the place would have had to be running 24/7 at a rate of £200-£300 per hour.  The police staked some of them out and noticed that they had no customers but were still banking tens of thousands per month.

There were so many on some high streets that the whole town should have been the same colour as Trump if they were used as often as the owners alleged.

Criminals will think of anything to launder money in the short term.  It wouldn't surprise me if they went into the used book and CD business.

The clever part of this most current scam selling vapes and so on, probably smuggled into the UK, is that they are probably making a profit on the vapes and tobacco as well as laundering the cash.

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About 30+ years ago it was well known that organised crime was buying up large taxi operations (minicabs) in certain big cities to launder their drugs money.  It was perfect as they will have been legitimately banking large sums of cash anyway so a few thousand more wouldn't stand out.

They won't be able to do that now as much of it is card and it would be very unusual for a large company to insist on cash in this day and age.
Be difficult to do it with a minicab / taxi, the milage wouldn't be correct for the money banked and the tax man would pick it up.

Online Mr Garmin

Be difficult to do it with a minicab / taxi, the milage wouldn't be correct for the money banked and the tax man would pick it up.

Records weren't that accurate.  This was over 30 years ago don't forget.  The individual owner drivers simply coughed up a load of cash at the end of the week for the jobs done.  Pretty easy to add a few grand to the immense amount of cash being banked for 2000+ cars.

I'm not talking mom and pop operations here.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 09:56:19 pm by Mr Garmin »

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Now that a lot of cab operations use data links to get their jobs it makes using cards much easier.

No need to read back the card number etc to the office. It now comes up on the cab company system..

Online myothernameis

There one area, which at the moment, isn't under investigation for money laundering, and on a weekly basis this is what I deal with.

The coinstar machines from what I see, happening and think its mostly the professional Romanian beggars.  Three Romanian males and some females come into my work place, with lose coins, and use the coinstar machine.  When they came to cash in there coins, it came to around £900, which I had to get a manager to approve.

I recon over a period of 12 months, these Romanian beggars, are cashing in around £1 million+ per year

One of the customers behind them, did your females get all these coins, through begging, they didnt answer or wait, and rushed out of the store, and havent been back since

We have only seen the same person, come back a few times, but guess there using other stores with coin-stars, so not to draw attention on them selfs

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There one area, which at the moment, isn't under investigation for money laundering, and on a weekly basis this is what I deal with.

The coinstar machines from what I see, happening and think its mostly the professional Romanian beggars. 

Is it money laundering?

Money laundering is where illegitimate money that is outside of the banking system is "laundered" and enters the legitimate and electronic money system?

Don't coinstar machines just convert coins in to notes (or a voucher for notes). Can they get money in to the electronic banking system?



Online myothernameis

10,000 x 20p = £2000, so we end up giving them £2000 in notes, so where does the money go next, not into the bank

I would have thought money laundering would include money obtained through, illegal actions like professional begging
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 10:29:59 pm by myothernameis »

Online PilotMan

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10,000 x 20p = £2000, so we end up giving them £2000 in notes, so where does the money go next, not into the bank

I would have thought money laundering would include money obtained through, illegal actions like professional begging

You've forgotten to include the 11.5% deduction for the processing fee.

10,000 x 20p equates to £1,770 after the deduction.

Obtaining money through illicit activities, is different to money laundering.

Money laundering is when you take the money obtained through illegal activities and make it appear legitimate.

If it's still in cash it's not laundered.

I doubt that there's any concern about these types of machines, unless and until, they can turn cash in to an electronic format.

Offline Blackpool Rock

You've forgotten to include the 11.5% deduction for the processing fee.

10,000 x 20p equates to £1,770 after the deduction.

Obtaining money through illicit activities, is different to money laundering.

Money laundering is when you take the money obtained through illegal activities and make it appear legitimate.

If it's still in cash it's not laundered.

I doubt that there's any concern about these types of machines, unless and until, they can turn cash in to an electronic format.
More like a Pre Wash  :unknown:

Years ago I saw a dodgy looking pair in the casino who would put about £2K on the table to convert what I assume was drugs money into cash, they would play for a bit and then take the "Cash chips" off of the table with them and move onto another table where they wouldn't spend the cash chips but put more paper money down for yet more cash chips.
Once they had £10K+ of cash chips they'd go to the cash desk and cash them out but ask for a cheque which could be paid into a bank account and was then clean money

Probably harder to do these days as the casino I go to is constantly asking people questions and monitoring who is spending how much etc and there are limits on how much you can win or lose unless you are a member so you have to give your real name / address / photo ID etc

Offline Mr Rollison

I remember a conversation from a Mafia book I read between Johnny Roselli and Jimmy the weasel Frattiano.

Jimmy was complaining about Mo Dalitz, bootlegger who made it big in Vegas, built a hospital and got Vegas man of the year.
Johnny explained to him that his and the Italians problem was they declared next to nothing while the Jews told the taxman much higher figures so after a few years had no problems proving the could afford stuff or be entitled to large loans.

Private Eye has had a few reports on American candy shops. Non payment of taxes and then the company closes seems to be their thing.
Probably laundering as well.

Offline JontyR

More like a Pre Wash  :unknown:

Years ago I saw a dodgy looking pair in the casino who would put about £2K on the table to convert what I assume was drugs money into cash, they would play for a bit and then take the "Cash chips" off of the table with them and move onto another table where they wouldn't spend the cash chips but put more paper money down for yet more cash chips.
Once they had £10K+ of cash chips they'd go to the cash desk and cash them out but ask for a cheque which could be paid into a bank account and was then clean money

Probably harder to do these days as the casino I go to is constantly asking people questions and monitoring who is spending how much etc and there are limits on how much you can win or lose unless you are a member so you have to give your real name / address / photo ID etc

I did always wonder at the high proportion of far eastern looking gentlemen frequenting the casinos of the west midlands. If there were an equal ops survey carried out there it would show a signifcantly different demographic to the rest of the community.

Offline BlackLuster

I've often wondered if local Chinese takeaways are doing this too. They're everywhere in Northern towns. Even Americans notice and think it's weird.

Down in the south the Chicken and chips shops dominate but I recall hearing people speculate that those were more to do with land ownership. Though I think they may have been confused as McDonalds is the type of corporation to have the means to own land and rent to franchisees, not a small fried chicken shop.

Anyway, connecting the dots is interesting and helps dispell the notion that a lot of these guys are just genius businessmen or ultra hardworking compared to the lazy (hear this all the time for Chinese). A lot are crooked and simply found ways to game the system.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2025, 01:55:06 pm by BlackLuster »

Online MLawro93

I've often wondered if local Chinese takeaways are doing this too. They're everywhere in Northern towns. Even Americans notice and think it's weird.

Down in the south the Chicken and chips shops dominate but I recall hearing people speculate that those were more to do with land ownership. Though I think they may have been confused as McDonalds is the type of corporation to have the means to own land and rent to franchisees, not a small fried chicken shop.

Anyway, connecting the dots is interesting and helps dispell the notion that a lot of these guys are just genius businessmen or ultra hardworking compared to the lazy (hear this all the time for Chinese). A lot are crooked and simply found ways to game the system.

You can be sure something isn't 100% right when the business is cash only.

This is quite prevalent in the UK and only became a big talking point at HMRC during COVID.

Online scutty brown

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I've often wondered if local Chinese takeaways are doing this too. They're everywhere in Northern towns. Even Americans notice and think it's weird.

Down in the south the Chicken and chips shops dominate but I recall hearing people speculate that those were more to do with land ownership. Though I think they may have been confused as McDonalds is the type of corporation to have the means to own land and rent to franchisees, not a small fried chicken shop.

Anyway, connecting the dots is interesting and helps dispell the notion that a lot of these guys are just genius businessmen or ultra hardworking compared to the lazy (hear this all the time for Chinese). A lot are crooked and simply found ways to game the system.

Yes they are.
Also the genuine profits from some of  the chinese takeaways are often what finances the importation of the girls (and drugs) in the first place.

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Can't think that our local chinese chippy would get up to this malarky, known them for years and their quite happy taking card payments these days, just hard working people who provide a good service:).

Maybe its different up North?..
« Last Edit: April 20, 2025, 06:08:48 pm by Watts.E.Dunn »

Online scutty brown

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Can't think that our local chinese chippy would get up to this malarky, known them for years and their quite happy taking card payments these days, just hard working people who provide a good service:).

Maybe its different up North?..

not just north

Online DastardlyDick

Can't think that our local chinese chippy would get up to this malarky, known them for years and their quite happy taking card payments these days, just hard working people who provide a good service:).

Maybe its different up North?..
We have 2 Chinese takeaways near me, one accepts all the usual forms of payment, the other only takes cash unless you pay via their app.
Maybe the 2nd one just doesn't like banks?

Offline Adoniron

What about the British businesses who will only take payment in cash? What's their reason? Tax evasion?

Online PilotMan

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What about the British businesses who will only take payment in cash? What's their reason? Tax evasion?

In my experience, not many high street businesses "only take cash" nowadays.

The only proper shop front type business that I can think of is my barbers, they used to take card, but now they only take cash.

I have numerous self employed Equestrian trades people visiting me. Most will take bank transfer or cash. Two of them say they prefer cash, but will take bank transfer.

I'll reserve my opinion as to why on all of the above.

__________

In my B2B businesses we have never taken cash. In the past three years only one person has asked us to take cash (circa £12k), When I asked why, he said it was because he had cash that he hadn't had time to bank, from another business that he owned (a restaurant). :unknown: :( :blush:

Offline WASA38

In my experience, not many high street businesses "only take cash" nowadays.

The only proper shop front type business that I can think of is my barbers, they used to take card, but now they only take cash.

I have numerous self employed Equestrian trades people visiting me. Most will take bank transfer or cash. Two of them say they prefer cash, but will take bank transfer.


 Equestrian ? You mean like Steptoe & Son ?  Mine mostly come in tatty vans or cars.

For me too only the (Turkish) barbers insist on cash.

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Equestrian ? You mean like Steptoe & Son ?  Mine mostly come in tatty vans or cars.

For me too only the (Turkish) barbers insist on cash.

Equestrian as in farriers, trainers, bit fitters, grooms, saddlers, and even an equine masseuse.

Funny thing is, my barber is white British.