Exploding pagers

[RandomGuy99]

If kids died, better to ask the parents and terrorists why the kids were using military comms equipment.
Sounds like Hezbollah were using kids as couriers and message cutouts

Or the kid was just playing with a relative's pager.

[scutty brown]

Or the kid was just playing with a relative's pager.

In which case WTF was he allowed to play with what should have been treated as secure equipment?
Exposes a big hole in the terrorists security mindset

[ian cognito]

If drug gangs in the UK are happy to use kids to move their products around (County Lines) then I hardly think Hezbollah would have any scruples about using kids in their organisation.

[scutty brown]

If drug gangs in the UK are happy to use kids to move their products around (County Lines) then I hardly think Hezbollah would have any scruples about using kids in their organisation.

Which makes the kids valid targets.
Unpleasant reality

[RandomGuy99]

In which case WTF was he allowed to play with what should have been treated as secure equipment?
Exposes a big hole in the terrorists security mindset

It's a pager. It can only receive and I imagine they don't send messages to them like "can you plant a bomb at no.8 on your way to work tomorrow. Do you want a pastry for breakfast? Cya". Pagers usually just alert you that someone is trying to get hold of you and then you call a phone number to find out what the message actually is.

[scutty brown]

It's a pager. It can only receive and I imagine they don't send messages to them like "can you plant a bomb at no.8 on your way to work tomorrow. Do you want a pastry for breakfast? Cya". Pagers usually just alert you that someone is trying to get hold of you and then you call a phone number to find out what the message actually is.

That's Exactly what they were used for.
The Israelis had compromised the phones, both mobile and landlines. The pagers were an attempt at an alternative command & control system

[mr.bluesky]

Which makes the kids valid targets.
Unpleasant reality

A lot of these devices were set off in very public places like shops and markets so the children killed may have just been innocent bystanders or the children of the intended targets 

[scutty brown]

A lot of these devices were set off in very public places like shops and markets so the children killed may have just been innocent bystanders or the children of the intended targets 

If so it just Exposes the terrorists idiotic security standards..
Handing key military comms kit to kids is an inevitable disaster. Unless the intention was to use their own kids as hostages against Israeli action

[berksboy]

It's a pager. It can only receive and I imagine they don't send messages to them like "can you plant a bomb at no.8 on your way to work tomorrow. Do you want a pastry for breakfast? Cya". Pagers usually just alert you that someone is trying to get hold of you and then you call a phone number to find out what the message actually is.

Google says they can receive up to 240 characters.

[berksboy]

A lot of these devices were set off in very public places like shops and markets so the children killed may have just been innocent bystanders or the children of the intended targets 

Very small amount of explosive so would have to be holding it or very close. I dont know of a war without innocent bysanders being killed  its always been that way.

[Thecunninglinguist]

Presumably, when the small amount of explosive was put into the devices, they also implanted a detonator programmed to trigger when the device received a preset message, as they must have been receiving notmal messages without setting them off?

[scutty brown]

Presumably, when the small amount of explosive was put into the devices, they also implanted a detonator programmed to trigger when the device received a preset message, as they must have been receiving notmal messages without setting them off?

Guessing here, but the explosive (if that's what it was) could be embedded into the battery, and the battery could become the detonator by  overheating - something it could be programmed to do.
I've seen suggested that it wasn't so much an explosive, but rather a thermite device which would burn extremely hot. That would explain the relatively few deaths - supposedly less than a dozen, despite ~3,000 people being injured which if I'm right would be from extreme burns. Would only need a few grams of thermite, which could also be triggered by a battery overload - and of course a lithium battery would add significantly to the pyre.
Thermite reactions can hit 2,500 Celsius. And the powder would be odourless, undetectable. You don't want it in your pocket.

[RandomGuy99]

Guessing here, but the explosive (if that's what it was) could be embedded into the battery, and the battery could become the detonator by  overheating - something it could be programmed to do.
I've seen suggested that it wasn't so much an explosive, but rather a thermite device which would burn extremely hot. That would explain the relatively few deaths - supposedly less than a dozen, despite ~3,000 people being injured which if I'm right would be from extreme burns. Would only need a few grams of thermite, which could also be triggered by a battery overload - and of course a lithium battery would add significantly to the pyre.
Thermite reactions can hit 2,500 Celsius. And the powder would be odourless, undetectable. You don't want it in your pocket.

A lot of the injured lost eyes. There was a doctor from hospital saying he'd never removed so many eyes in one day, so presumably the pagers and walkie-talkies were being held up to the person's head when they exploded send shrapnel in all directions like a mini hand grenade.

[scutty brown]

A lot of the injured lost eyes. There was a doctor from hospital saying he'd never removed so many eyes in one day, so presumably the pagers and walkie-talkies were being held up to the person's head when they exploded send shrapnel in all directions like a mini hand grenade.

or maybe intense burns
it will be interesting to see what emerges

[JontyR]

Did they not check these devices or can't the devices be checked?

If the latter you can imagine there'll be some fantatics booking flights with their tech pretty soon.

[scutty brown]

Did they not check these devices or can't the devices be checked?

If the latter you can imagine there'll be some fantatics booking flights with their tech pretty soon.

what are you going to check? A phone battery looks like a phone battery even when it's not

[RandomGuy99]

Did they not check these devices or can't the devices be checked?

If the latter you can imagine there'll be some fantatics booking flights with their tech pretty soon.

I'm sure they could check them and it is probably easy to see that they have explosives in or you could replace the battery but they might be anti-tamper too and would explode if you tried to dismantle them. An x-ray machine might be a better solution probably down your local dentist.

[bigden40]

According to NYT this operation was a long one where Israel created a shell company in Hungary and were actually making the pagers.  They were selling legit ones to normal customers and then provided Hezbollah with explosive ones.

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[timsussex]

the clues were there



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[Watts.E.Dunn]

All in rather clever its not just as simple as putting explosive or thermite in them there would have to be a detonate system upon a specfic received message. And after playing around with some in the past theres sod all room to add anything much in there apart from the battery that may have been altered so as to decrease capacity and hence its usable life. Wasnt that simple i'd reckon;!..

[Colston36]

the clues were there



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Can someone tell me a) how all this is going to help us get better sex b) how it has nothing to do with politics.

[daviemac]

Can someone tell me a) how all this is going to help us get better sex b) how it has nothing to do with politics.

A) It's in off topic so it doesn't have to have anything to do with paid sex.

B) Most of the discussion has been on how it was done, not on the politics of why it was done.

I'm sure after all the temp bans on other threads most members realise political posts anywhere other than the dedicated political thread is not a good idea.

[Bangman]

How can it be a great plan to detonate hundreds of small bombs in public places risking the lives of innocent people nearby? It is terrorism.

The two counties are at war, Israel have managed to infiltrate the comms and then strike at their enemy

Yes its a bit shit that there have been some civilian casualties but from what I have read, it has been a success as in terms of planning and actions

The moral standpoint is another discussion

Lewisjones, Can you elaborate what a terrorist attack is then?

I'm 100% sure if that happened in israel or any European country or here to any army or politicians family members, there would be worldwide outrage with the headline, Terrorist Attack.

If you call the murder of a 9 yr old girl a success, then fair play to you mate. I think Lee Rigby's killer used a similar reason.

That was a Terrorist attack, plain and simple, unless terrorism has a new definition where the killers and victims have to be a certain race.

[Bangman]

Which makes the kids valid targets.
Unpleasant reality

Wow, I didn't expect this from you Scutty. So are you saying its OK the 9 year old was killed. If you read the details, she heard a beeping sound and went to pick it up and it exploded, plenty of women and children injured.

I really can't get people justifying children getting killed.

Yes, War has Collateral Damage, but It seems it depends on the victims skin colour or religion to sympathise or label what's a terrorist attack these days.

[scutty brown]

Wow, I didn't expect this from you Scutty. So are you saying its OK the 9 year old was killed. If you read the details, she heard a beeping sound and went to pick it up and it exploded, plenty of women and children injured.

I really can't get people justifying children getting killed.

Yes, War has Collateral Damage, but It seems it depends on the victims skin colour or religion to sympathise or label what's a terrorist attack these days.

I'll bring you back to the core point. These devices were intended as secure military comms devices, ones that were difficult if not near impossible to geolocate. Which means the Israelis would have been unable to screen by location for likely non-military users.
But then why would there be any non-military users? Either the users were lax in security and left the devices lying around where they could be easily found. Or they were using kids as part of their communications network. Whichever was the case, the fault lies with Hezbollah for basic fundamental stupidity in how these devices were used.
It was Hezbollah who put the kids at risk, not the Israelis.

[scutty brown]

All in rather clever its not just as simple as putting explosive or thermite in them there would have to be a detonate system upon a specfic received message. And after playing around with some in the past theres sod all room to add anything much in there apart from the battery that may have been altered so as to decrease capacity and hence its usable life. Wasnt that simple i'd reckon;!..

I read somewhere the pagers were an old model which the primary manufacturers had ceased production of ten years ago.
Assuming someone assembled a batch from redundant or spare parts, or found a stash of surplus stock it wouldn't be difficult to manufacture a batch of replacement physically smaller but more powerful batteries so releasing space for any explosive material.

[Bangman]

I'll bring you back to the core point. These devices were intended as secure military comms devices, ones that were difficult if not near impossible to geolocate. Which means the Israelis would have been unable to screen by location for likely non-military users.
But then why would there be any non-military users? Either the users were lax in security and left the devices lying around where they could be easily found. Or they were using kids as part of their communications network. Whichever was the case, the fault lies with Hezbollah for basic fundamental stupidity in how these devices were used.
It was Hezbollah who put the kids at risk, not the Israelis.

Your changing the narrative. Children have been killed and injured is the point I was referring to.

If that's what Israel have said and you choose to beleive em.. good on you sir 

[scutty brown]

Your changing the narrative. Children have been killed and injured is the point I was referring to.

If that's what Israel have said and you choose to beleive em.. good on you sir 

Yes, kids have been killed and injured but the responsibility lies with those who allowed the misuse of military equipment. Not with those who neutralised that equipment.

[RandomGuy99]

I read somewhere the pagers were an old model which the primary manufacturers had ceased production of ten years ago.
Assuming someone assembled a batch from redundant or spare parts, or found a stash of surplus stock it wouldn't be difficult to manufacture a batch of replacement physically smaller but more powerful batteries so releasing space for any explosive material.

The OEM said they licensed the company in Hungary to manufacture the pagers and presumably they also supplied them with the parts. There's a fair amount of empty space in these devices. You just need to pack that space with explosive and you have a bomb. I am guessing that pagers must still ping mobile phone towers to let the tower where they are and therefore could be identified like the Kosovans did with the British troops where they had their personal mobile phones with them and their communications were going through a mobile phone tower in Kosovan controlled ground.

[scutty brown]

The OEM said they licensed the company in Hungary to manufacture the pagers and presumably they also supplied them with the parts. There's a fair amount of empty space in these devices. You just need to pack that space with explosive and you have a bomb. I am guessing that pagers must still ping mobile phone towers to let the tower where they are and therefore could be identified like the Kosovans did with the British troops where they had their personal mobile phones with them and their communications were going through a mobile phone tower in Kosovan controlled ground.

From what I can gather the pagers don't ping the towers which is exactly why Hezbollah regarded them as more secure

[bigden40]

Lewisjones, Can you elaborate what a terrorist attack is then?

I'm 100% sure if that happened in israel or any European country or here to any army or politicians family members, there would be worldwide outrage with the headline, Terrorist Attack.

If you call the murder of a 9 yr old girl a success, then fair play to you mate. I think Lee Rigby's killer used a similar reason.

That was a Terrorist attack, plain and simple, unless terrorism has a new definition where the killers and victims have to be a certain race.

A terrorist attack is something that targets civilians. 

This attack clearly did not target civilians, in fact it is the complete opposite, it could hardly have been more precisely targeted at combatants.  These devices were distributed to be in the hands of Hezbollah operatives.  Hezbollah is a designated terrorist organisation who have conducted many acts of war on Israel, far less targeted than this.

There’s no clear data on civilian injuries from this attack so it’s hard to argue the point.  The one child you are referring to was the daughter of a Hezbollah fighter who was carrying the pager to her Dad when it went off, the target was the father.

[RandomGuy99]

From what I can gather the pagers don't ping the towers which is exactly why Hezbollah regarded them as more secure

They must be old school radio then but you could still triangulate from multiple transmitters)receivers but they must have very short transmissions as the messages are short.

[PumpDump]

A terrorist attack is something that targets civilians. 

Where are you getting your definition of terrorism from?

[berksboy]

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
terrorism
/ˈtɛrərɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: terrorism

    the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
    "the fight against terrorism"

[lewisjones23]

Lewisjones, Can you elaborate what a terrorist attack is then?

I'm 100% sure if that happened in israel or any European country or here to any army or politicians family members, there would be worldwide outrage with the headline, Terrorist Attack.

If you call the murder of a 9 yr old girl a success, then fair play to you mate. I think Lee Rigby's killer used a similar reason.

That was a Terrorist attack, plain and simple, unless terrorism has a new definition where the killers and victims have to be a certain race.

No idea what is deemed a terrorist attack, not sure why you're asking me that as I haven't said anything like that.

I stand fully by what I've said though, the planning and execution of the whole event has been done excellently. The amount of work that has been put in, without any of Israel's enemies getting wind of it is actually insane.

Israel's enemies could only dream of pulling off something so sophisticated, instead they resort to crude tactics

[PumpDump]

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
terrorism
/ˈtɛrərɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: terrorism

    the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
    "the fight against terrorism"

ALternative

"The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to inculcate fear. Terrorism is intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

From External Link/Members Only

[scutty brown]

According to this MSN article
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Reuters reckon the actual explosive was just 3 grams of  PETN - Pentaerythritol tetranitrate

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Meanwhile this chap who seems to have played a key part in supplying the devices has gone missing, whether by choice or not is unknown
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[bigden40]

ALternative

"The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to inculcate fear. Terrorism is intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

From External Link/Members Only

Edit.   Never mind, what’s the point in arguing with someone engaging in semantic games

[PumpDump]

Israel's enemies could only dream of pulling off something so sophisticated, instead they resort to crude tactics

Israel only makes enemies with the weak. Like every playground bully, they are cowards.

[PumpDump]

Describes Hezbollah perfectly.

Would you say it describes Israel? Referring to their actions in Gaza?

[bigden40]

Would you say it describes Israel? Referring to their actions in Gaza?

This isn’t the politics thread.

This thread is about the exploding pagers in Lebanon, not Gaza.

[scutty brown]

Would you say it describes Israel? Referring to their actions in Gaza?

Now you're talking philosophy or metaphysics
Can an act taken in response or retaliation to terrorism be in itself terrorism? Or does the original act legitimise it?

[RandomGuy99]

Meanwhile this chap who seems to have played a key part in supplying the devices has gone missing, whether by choice or not is unknown
External Link/Members Only

Possibly because he never really exited. Probably a Mossad agent.

[PumpDump]

This isn’t the politics thread.

This thread is about the exploding pagers in Lebanon, not Gaza.

Why did you say this then (which you have subsequently edited). You are the one who took it off-topic.

Describes Hezbollah perfectly.

You can't just make a political point, then when I reply you edit your comment to remove your political point and tell me off for being political. That is quite deceitful.

[bigden40]

Why did you say this then (which you have subsequently edited). You are the one who took it off-topic.

Hezbollah were the recipients of the pagers, so not off topic.  I edited it because I’m bored of you and did so 11 minutes before you replied.

You took it to a conversation about a separate conflict with a different party in another country in an overtly political way.

[PumpDump]

Hezbollah were the recipients of the pagers, so not off topic.  I edited it because I’m bored of you and did so 11 minutes before you replied.

You edited your post 51 seconds after I replied to it. My reply 3:34:01, your edit 3:34:52.

You took it to a conversation about a separate conflict with a different party in another country in an overtly political way.

Strawman argument as you didn't want to answer my question.

[lewisjones23]

Israel only makes enemies with the weak. Like every playground bully, they are cowards.

Wouldnt describe Iran as weak in all honesty

Their armed forces have a fair bit behind them

[chrishornx]

A terrorist attack is something that targets civilians. 

This attack clearly did not target civilians, in fact it is the complete opposite, it could hardly have been more precisely targeted at combatants.  These devices were distributed to be in the hands of Hezbollah operatives.  Hezbollah is a designated terrorist organisation who have conducted many acts of war on Israel, far less targeted than this.

There’s no clear data on civilian injuries from this attack so it’s hard to argue the point.  The one child you are referring to was the daughter of a Hezbollah fighter who was carrying the pager to her Dad when it went off, the target was the father.

Disagree with your specific definition.

How do you describe attacks on military targets/sites by terrorist groups ? And why do you describe Hezbollah attacks as acts of war when many of their attacks are indiscriminate and attack civilian targets ?

[RedKettle]

Israel only makes enemies with the weak. Like every playground bully, they are cowards.

Who ever you support that is such a total failure to understand the history of the region and the creation of Isreal.  Perhaps read some history.

[berksboy]

ALternative

"The calculated use of violence or threat of violence to inculcate fear. Terrorism is intended to coerce or intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

From External Link/Members Only

How do they intimidate governments ? Usually by attacking unarmed civillians.