Anyone tried St John’s Wort as an alternative to SSRIs?

[jaydefo24]

Curious because I’ve been taking it for 5 months as it was very effective at stabilising me and putting me in a good mood most of the time without any of the sexual side effects of SSRIs like Citalipram or Sertraline etc.

However I recently started experiencing some very weird issues which I’m wondering if anyone else has.

[PepeMAGA]

Yes I've used it in the past. I would say it's not quite as effective as citalopram, but doesn't have the orgasm delay issue, or not to the same level.
Think it lowers testosterone a bit, also amplifies the effects of some other drugs, can cause liver damage if taken with other things and a doctor told me it can thin the blood too.
I'm not currently taking it, but when I do I go for the Holland and Barrett one as it's the lowest available dose, but works just as well. It's about 130mg, whereas you can get it in ridiculous doses over a gram!

[Rick2468]

I used this for 3 months about 10 years ago when I was going through a rough patch with a break up and Mother being terminally ill. I can't say it worked well for me but I was drinking a lot at the time to cope so I would have been emotionally unstable no matter was I was taking so I don't think I can fairly say that St John's Wort didn't work. I bought 9 months worth of medication as Boots had their usual 3 for 2 deal and I ended up giving most of it away to a friend for them to try it. I only ended up in a consistently good place when I gave up the booze for good as even a few beers at the weekend would make my mind wobbly for a few days. It is really shit not drinking any more but the benefits outweigh the cons.

[scutty brown]

Be very careful with it as it affects liver function and can dramatically, even fatally, affect the absorption and metabolisation of many drugs.
Besides that it can make your skin extremely photosensitive.
Note that grazing animals routinely die after eating it in fields

[jaydefo24]

Be very careful with it as it affects liver function and can dramatically, even fatally, affect the absorption and metabolisation of many drugs.
Besides that it can make your skin extremely photosensitive.
Note that grazing animals routinely die after eating it in fields

Thanks for this. What I haven’t noticed is any increase in skin sensitivity, I was taking it whilst on holiday in Spain in September and I didn’t burn at all.

However, recently I’ve developed some weird visual disturbances starting with an “aura migraine”. I reduced dosage and changed brands to do so ( pill claiming to be 154mg as opposed to previous one being 300mg ).

Since the last week or so I’ve become acutely aware of my vision being less clear and experiencing what I’d describe as what you see after rubbing your eyes especially over darker areas of the scene I’m looking at. Also reading and screens suddenly seem harder to look at clearly.

Im really concerned that I’ve ruined something to do with visual processing in the brain.

[jaydefo24]

Yes I've used it in the past. I would say it's not quite as effective as citalopram, but doesn't have the orgasm delay issue, or not to the same level.
Think it lowers testosterone a bit, also amplifies the effects of some other drugs, can cause liver damage if taken with other things and a doctor told me it can thin the blood too.
I'm not currently taking it, but when I do I go for the Holland and Barrett one as it's the lowest available dose, but works just as well. It's about 130mg, whereas you can get it in ridiculous doses over a gram!

Thanks. I did not combine with any other drug ( apart form alcohol in moderation). I started on the tincture from Holland And Barrat and it seemed the wonder drug. After 3 months I started getting a bit dizzy and headaches after taking it so decided to switch to a pill I bought in another shop claiming to be lower milligrams. Then new problems started, most concerning my with visual perception.

[scutty brown]

Thanks for this. What I haven’t noticed is any increase in skin sensitivity, I was taking it whilst on holiday in Spain in September and I didn’t burn at all.

However, recently I’ve developed some weird visual disturbances starting with an “aura migraine”. I reduced dosage and changed brands to do so ( pill claiming to be 154mg as opposed to previous one being 300mg ).

Since the last week or so I’ve become acutely aware of my vision being less clear and experiencing what I’d describe as what you see after rubbing your eyes especially over darker areas of the scene I’m looking at. Also reading and screens suddenly seem harder to look at clearly.

Im really concerned that I’ve ruined something to do with visual processing in the brain.

Stop taking it immediately and see your GP
I haven't seen any reports on visual effects, but when I was reading online about it yesterday and saw the molecular structure of some of the active chemicals my first immediate thought was that it could cause retinal problems if it got deposited into the eyes. I'd expect some of the components to fluoresce when illuminated

[jaydefo24]

Stop taking it immediately and see your GP
I haven't seen any reports on visual effects, but when I was reading online about it yesterday and saw the molecular structure of some of the active chemicals my first immediate thought was that it could cause retinal problems if it got deposited into the eyes. I'd expect some of the components to fluoresce when illuminated

I stopped immediately last week and the symptoms persisting. Went for a private eye examination to have it quick and they said nothing wrong with my retina or lenses and the doctor hasn’t got a clue so I don’t know what to do now.

It’s alarming what you say, and I’m guessing you’re a scientist of some sort if you can make that assessment based on the molecular structure … ? So you think this could be caused by SJWort ?

[scutty brown]

I stopped immediately last week and the symptoms persisting. Went for a private eye examination to have it quick and they said nothing wrong with my retina or lenses and the doctor hasn’t got a clue so I don’t know what to do now.

It’s alarming what you say, and I’m guessing you’re a scientist of some sort if you can make that assessment based on the molecular structure … ? So you think this could be caused by SJWort ?

I'm no expert, but I spent a long time in a previous life working with drug discovery materials. When I saw this molecule as present in the plant it raised  some worries
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That ring structure is a big chromophore which will catch light photons. That energy has got to go somewhere, possibly just as fluorescence possibly something more serious. I'm not an medic, nor have I worked with that specific chemical so this is all assumption but I wouldn't want that in my body

[jaydefo24]

I'm no expert, but I spent a long time in a previous life working with drug discovery materials. When I saw this molecule as present in the plant it raised  some worries
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That ring structure is a big chromophore which will catch light photons. That energy has got to go somewhere, possibly just as fluorescence possibly something more serious. I'm not an medic, nor have I worked with that specific chemical so this is all assumption but I wouldn't want that in my body

Why the f**k is there no warning about this serious potential side effect then, I’m actually going to try and sue them if I prove to have suffered visual damage for life thanks to this. All they mention is it can cause dizziness and headaches and not to interact with other drugs especially prescription SSRI. I’m absolutely livid

[lostandfound]

Im really concerned that I’ve ruined something to do with visual processing in the brain.

More than 50% of the brain is devoted to visual processing. So it's quite hard to "ruin" it.

[scutty brown]

Why the f**k is there no warning about this serious potential side effect then, I’m actually going to try and sue them if I prove to have suffered visual damage for life thanks to this. All they mention is it can cause dizziness and headaches and not to interact with other drugs especially prescription SSRI. I’m absolutely livid

To do that you'd need a lot more technical information than just me writing on a forum. Your next step really should be back to the GP and if problems persist get a referral. I suspect it's a little researched area though

[ShadowProclamation]

I've taken it for winter depression, for the past couple of decades. It comes in different concentrations, so you need to find a dosage which works for you. Plus, you need to be careful about certain food and drug combinations. Consult your GP, rather than follow our advice though.

[PepeMAGA]

Why the f**k is there no warning about this serious potential side effect then, I’m actually going to try and sue them if I prove to have suffered visual damage for life thanks to this. All they mention is it can cause dizziness and headaches and not to interact with other drugs especially prescription SSRI. I’m absolutely livid

Also why put it in a tincture? The doses are bound to be inconsistent.
As Scutty says I would see your GP. They may have other tests they can do on your eyesight

[scutty brown]

Quick search and it looks like I guessed right

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just the first papers I found, but enough to show it's a real problem.
Quite possible your GP may not be aware - it can't be a common issue. You may need to refer your GP to this and ask for a referral

[myothernameis]

Curious because I’ve been taking it for 5 months as it was very effective at stabilising me and putting me in a good mood

There places that do blood testing, and maybe might be a good idea, to how much levels of st jhn wart are in your system, to much or just right

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Jaydefo..

I'd stop taking that and see your GP ASAP and read Scuttys info about it, its not shall we say, and innocent substance!..

[jaydefo24]

Jaydefo..

I'd stop taking that and see your GP ASAP and read Scuttys info about it, its not shall we say, and innocent substance!..

Already have, GPs know nothing about SJWort or eyes. They just refer me to an eye specialist with no appointment until mid January

[Marmalade]

I hate to seem to agree with Scutty's 'alarmist' tendency but he's correct about SJ Wort.
It's surprising if the GP doesn't know about it... it's one of the very few supplements that most are aware of (simply on account of the large number of potentially very serious interactions with many prescription medicines).

On the other hand it's considered effective for depression (or as effective as an SSRi). Yet unlike carefully-measured doses of SSRIs (which indeed can have more side-effects it seems that SJWort) it's very hard to know how much you're getting. 60% of the St. John's wort supplements tested by ConsumerLab.com did not contain expected amounts of one or more key plant chemicals. There was an enormous range, suggesting you could get as much as 280 times more active ingredients from one product than from another. Even respected brands like Now Foods and Swansons failed tests (though in their cases for containing a much much lower dose than stated on the product). The plants can accumulate cadmium or lead, both toxic; and most manufacturers won't test for it. Some examples of prescribed drugs that SJWort can seriously interfere with include omeprazole, warfarin, statins, digoxin, MAO inhibitors, tramadol. They are reported to cause potentially excessive serotonin when taken with SSRIs.

Having said that, if you are not on any meds at all it's probably safe.

[scutty brown]

The eye risk I pointed out isn't due to any interference with other meds. It's an inherent risk which comes from the actual chemical structure of Hypericin and its analogues which are naturally present in St Johns Wort.
Essentially the polycyclic ring structure absorbs light photons and that energy has to go somewhere in the eye. In essence it can cook the cells in the retina causing macular degeneration, or in the lens causing cataracts
That's a gross simplification but it'll do to get the idea across.

[jaydefo24]

The eye risk I pointed out isn't due to any interference with other meds. It's an inherent risk which comes from the actual chemical structure of Hypericin and its analogues which are naturally present in St Johns Wort.
Essentially the polycyclic ring structure absorbs light photons and that energy has to go somewhere in the eye. In essence it can cook the cells in the retina causing macular degeneration, or in the lens causing cataracts
That's a gross simplification but it'll do to get the idea across.

So I’d love to know how in hell this is not required to be mentioned on the packaging and why if any cases existed where people have had damaged eyesight after taking the herb is it even allowed on the market at all? It’s a life changing and ruining side effect I would never have taken the risk had I known.

[scutty brown]

So I’d love to know how in hell this is not required to be mentioned on the packaging and why if any cases existed where people have had damaged eyesight after taking the herb is it even allowed on the market at all? It’s a life changing and ruining side effect I would never have taken the risk had I known.

I think the simple answer is that it's sold as a dietary / herbal supplement not as a pharmaceutical / medical product and as such is unregulated and unlicensed. A very good example of why the herbal "medicine" business should be controlled and standardised. As it stands at the moment there are no checks or controls on safety, efficacy, purity or activity of contents,

[Marmalade]

I’m happy to pass on information and I’d also support better guidelines on such products, but I have to disagree profoundly with Scutty about ‘controlling’ everything.

The corollary is that people should act responsibly when shoving stuff into their bodies. And there are responsible sellers out there that provide good advice and independent lab Certificates of Examination — manufacturers such as Life Extension or Nootropics Depot — people who are far more transparent than the average interfering and frequently poorly-informed government organisation. Once the government gets involved it often means banning everything for political purposes especially if big pharma don’t stand to make money.

This is not to say there isn’t a general lack of awareness over everything from herbals to vitamin pills. Taking anything above the RDA (where there is one) shouldn’t be done without a bit of basic research. Guzzling them on the basis that they might do some people some good is crazy. Even Wikipedia would tell you St John’s Wort can be dangerous.

But so can driving a car! I don’t understand why adults can’t act sensibly just because no-one has personally told them to. Caveat Emptor for goodness sake.

[Doc Holliday]

I’m happy to pass on information and I’d also support better guidelines on such products, but I have to disagree profoundly with Scutty about ‘controlling’ everything.

The corollary is that people should act responsibly when shoving stuff into their bodies. And there are responsible sellers out there that provide good advice and independent lab Certificates of Examination — manufacturers such as Life Extension or Nootropics Depot — people who are far more transparent than the average interfering and frequently poorly-informed government organisation. Once the government gets involved it often means banning everything for political purposes especially if big pharma don’t stand to make money.

This is not to say there isn’t a general lack of awareness over everything from herbals to vitamin pills. Taking anything above the RDA (where there is one) shouldn’t be done without a bit of basic research. Guzzling them on the basis that they might do some people some good is crazy. Even Wikipedia would tell you St John’s Wort can be dangerous.

But so can driving a car! I don’t understand why adults can’t act sensibly just because no-one has personally told them to. Caveat Emptor for goodness sake.

I would broadly agree. The problem though with the industry is it frequently plays on the 'natural' remedy element and there is a tendency for people to assume that it can do no harm as it is not a manufactured chemical produced by evil big pharma etc. They therefore do less research ... although they shouldn't.

I mentioned in the HPV vacine thread how easy it is to source reliable relevant information and St John's Wort is no exception
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You quickly realise (as we are both aware) it is in a class of its own when it comes to possible interactions External Link/Members Only

This is an interesting read External Link/Members Only and this one touches on the problems that you pointed out with finding a trustworthy supplier External Link/Members Only.

Personally I wouldn't touch SJW with the proverbial ....

[PepeMAGA]

I’m happy to pass on information and I’d also support better guidelines on such products, but I have to disagree profoundly with Scutty about ‘controlling’ everything.

The corollary is that people should act responsibly when shoving stuff into their bodies. And there are responsible sellers out there that provide good advice and independent lab Certificates of Examination — manufacturers such as Life Extension or Nootropics Depot — people who are far more transparent than the average interfering and frequently poorly-informed government organisation. Once the government gets involved it often means banning everything for political purposes especially if big pharma don’t stand to make money.

This is not to say there isn’t a general lack of awareness over everything from herbals to vitamin pills. Taking anything above the RDA (where there is one) shouldn’t be done without a bit of basic research. Guzzling them on the basis that they might do some people some good is crazy. Even Wikipedia would tell you St John’s Wort can be dangerous.

But so can driving a car! I don’t understand why adults can’t act sensibly just because no-one has personally told them to. Caveat Emptor for goodness sake.

It's rare for people to do thorough research ( in my experience) and a lot of the time people will accept manufacturers at their word. Like dosage for saint John's. I have had sufficient effects from 130mg.... But I see Holland and Barrett do a minimum dose of 425mg now, then look on Amazon it goes up to 1 gram tablets
I think all supplements should have some regulation, particularly when they have known psychotropic effects.
Companies openly sell SARMs on Facebook, which in itself will mislead people into thinking they can't be that bad, but much of what's said about them is blatant lies and there's no mention of the side effects.

[scutty brown]

It's rare for people to do thorough research ( in my experience) and a lot of the time people will accept manufacturers at their word. Like dosage for saint John's. I have had sufficient effects from 130mg.... But I see Holland and Barrett do a minimum dose of 425mg now, then look on Amazon it goes up to 1 gram tablets
I think all supplements should have some regulation, particularly when they have known psychotropic effects.
Companies openly sell SARMs on Facebook, which in itself will mislead people into thinking they can't be that bad, but much of what's said about them is blatant lies and there's no mention of the side effects.

but 130mg of what? Dried plant? Mixed plant extract? Of whatpurity? Of which active component..........?
Trying to know what you're getting is impossible unless standards are imposed

[PepeMAGA]

but 130mg of what? Dried plant? Mixed plant extract? Of whatpurity? Of which active component..........?
Trying to know what you're getting is impossible unless standards are imposed

Yes they usually say standardized to... But that varies and if it's a small company it probably isn't.
With ashwaganda you get the KSM66 standardisation, but don't see many other things like that