Boeing 737-Max by any other name: plane safety, comfort or price?

[Marmalade]

What do you look for on a flight?

The only upgrade I sometimes pay for is more leg room or occasionally choice of meal. The first has some logic to it: the second less so. Paid for meals vary from slightly better to just as awful. I’ll pay a bit extra to avoid Paris CDG airport — partly from bad experience but also it’s bad design that make problems more likely. It’s miserable! I avoid the various American airlines partly for their rubbish reputation and partly as I’m too lazy to get the visa waiver forms, plus it’s a long way round of going to the south of the continent. They tell me that the 737-Max is now ‘resoundingly safe’ but I’d rather fly Airbus or any other Boring than a 737-anything. That’s maybe superstition, but if that’s the case we can only guess why Ryanair have re-named them 737-8200 otherwise a lot of other people wouldn’t want to go on them either. Other airports I hate with a vengeance are Luton, Delhi and Sydney. Ones I’d pay to go to are Singapore and Hong Kong.

What are your likes and dislikes, and how do you choose your flights?

[RandomGuy99]

Likelihood of wings or engines or other flight critical component of aircraft falling off - ideally low
Direct flight or minimal transfers
Leg room but nobody can really guarantee as depends on what seat you get
Price - not bothered about food as it's never good

[mikecee]

Avoid any with an outside bog.

[Squire Haggard]

Avoid any with an outside bog.

 

[mr.bluesky]

Avoid any with an outside bog.

Avoid any where you have to wait for the big elastic band to be wound up

[standardpostage]

Price and the most convenient airport.

[lewisjones23]

Wish I'd never flown business as it has ruined economy for me

[Marmalade]

Wish I'd never flown business as it has ruined economy for me

A few sleeping tablets can be a cheaper upgrade. But a few do decent Economy. Emirates unless they’ve downgraded since I’ve flown with them. I quite liked JAL. But silver service can be a bit naff if the person in the next enclosure insists on talking and you haven’t brought your own noise-cancelling pods. But Business is great if it’s on a work tab, otherwise it seems an expensive use of the difference. A few Business class long haul and I’d be pining for First Class!

[JontyR]

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[shed]

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He was so funny this guy. One of the best stand up comics of his generation.

[lewisjones23]

A few sleeping tablets can be a cheaper upgrade. But a few do decent Economy. Emirates unless they’ve downgraded since I’ve flown with them. I quite liked JAL. But silver service can be a bit naff if the person in the next enclosure insists on talking and you haven’t brought your own noise-cancelling pods. But Business is great if it’s on a work tab, otherwise it seems an expensive use of the difference. A few Business class long haul and I’d be pining for First Class!

True, a chemical knockout can help

Last time I went to NZ I went via Qatar, 6 hours there then 16 on to Auckland, a terrible experience in economy so on the way back I pulled an all nighter before the flight then took 4 tramadol before boarding.

slept most of the first flight after that

[8MillionDollarMan]

I have been to Oz countless times as my mum lives there,I've only ever flown cattle class as it has saved me tens of thousands even though I have plenty of money.
It always sticks in my head that Keke Rosberg only flew economy and if it was good enough for him it's good enough for me.
I've flown 1st class but it's not worth it imo however I do fall asleep before the wheels have left the tarmac and am out of it for nearly all the flight time.

[petermisc]

What do you look for on a flight?

Convenient time of departure and arrival, and price.  Getting up at some unearthly hour is not my idea of a holiday.  What type of plane doesn't even enter into my thinking - you are unlikely to know before you make your booking, and even then they can change it later on.

I will pay for a seat upgrade if it is a cheaper way of buying extra luggage allowance.

I take my own food and drink.  Buying food and drink on-board is a sure way of getting ripped-off, and the food is usually fairly uninspiring.  Even buying at inflated airport prices is cheaper than buying on-board, and you get more choice.  I have been upgraded a couple of times, and even in business class the food is pretty meh.

[JimmySW]

I fly semi regularly long distance and have a refurbished Ipad Pro that I load up with netflix/Prime/Apple TV etc so that I don't have to watch the shit they put on the screen. Last time I flew business on Qatar via Doha and it was worth the upgrade!

[lewisjones23]

One thing I always do, regardless of what class I fly is pay for the airport lounge (if not already included)

They're usually around £30'ish which I can quite easily spend in the airport once you factor in food and a few drinks.

All included in the lounge so I load up on food, drink and then take some snacks with me from the counter

[Marmalade]

One thing I always do, regardless of what class I fly is pay for the airport lounge (if not already included)

They're usually around £30'ish which I can quite easily spend in the airport once you factor in food and a few drinks.

All included in the lounge so I load up on food, drink and then take some snacks with me from the counter

This is great value especially if you have a decent layover and not arriving/leaving outside lounge times (most are not open in the evening or early morning, but always worth checking). You also get a comfy seat. In some you get an option of showers, at Singapore, a bunk bed. But even at a crappy VIP lounge you get a nicer experience than sitting on a hard seat in the concourse and always some free food and drink and usually decent wifi.

[lewisjones23]

This is great value especially if you have a decent layover and not arriving/leaving outside lounge times (most are not open in the evening or early morning, but always worth checking). You also get a comfy seat. In some you get an option of showers, at Singapore, a bunk bed. But even at a crappy VIP lounge you get a nicer experience than sitting on a hard seat in the concourse and always some free food and drink and usually decent wifi.

Yes 100% agree

I went to NZ via Kuala Lumpur once and the lounge there was excellent, good choice of food and drink, really good showers and sleep pods that you could sleep in. I didn't take them up on the sleep as I wanted to sleep most of my second flight but the shower, even though it is a small thing, really set me up well for the second battle

[spiralnotebook]

Anything with Aeroflot or India Airlines on the side so I can avoid them.

[Podger]

Convenient time of departure and arrival, and price.  Getting up at some unearthly hour is not my idea of a holiday.  What type of plane doesn't even enter into my thinking - you are unlikely to know before you make your booking, and even then they can change it later on.

I will pay for a seat upgrade if it is a cheaper way of buying extra luggage allowance.

I take my own food and drink.  Buying food and drink on-board is a sure way of getting ripped-off, and the food is usually fairly uninspiring.  Even buying at inflated airport prices is cheaper than buying on-board, and you get more choice.  I have been upgraded a couple of times, and even in business class the food is pretty meh.
 

Obviously never flown from Dalaman airport, £8 for a coffee, £20 for a Burger king meal deal.

[Marmalade]

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Which airline has the most attractive hostesses...?

[lewisjones23]

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Which airline has the most attractive hostesses...?

The middle eastern airlines hire the best looking women, Emirates especially

[webpunter]

One of my mates is a pilot & there is a list of banned airlines
This is different from airlines banned by the european union for example
There's an agreement between most airlines that their pilots can fly for free / nearly free if they for whatever reason get 'stuck' wherever it is & cant fly
Over hours limit for example
Its something like £1m for BA to train a pilot & they dont want their investment being wiped out in a crash, where they know that the accident ratio is significantly
Egypt Air was & [AFAIAA] is on the banned UK airlines list
In 2002 one of their pilots deliberately crashed the plane & in 2016 a crash resulted from the pilot lighting a cigarette in the cockpit

Some of the far east airlines are notorious for coming into UK [fuck me on a re-read before posting i initially wrote 'UKP' freudian slip or what  ] airports at or below the absolute minimum fuel levels
Large planes can burn 10-12 metric tonnes of fuel per hour more in take off & landing
& there is a cost in getting this reserve fuel across to where they are going to land, the longer the flight the higher the cost
So some airlines fuel the plane to the minimum to save money
& if there's a problem at the destination airport & aircraft are stacking etc its often the same airlines which request priority landing as they are low on fuel
The CAA monitor this & can dish out hefty fines & ultimately ban airlines
If there is a problem at the destination airport those airlines operating on the absloute bare minimum fuel levels have less scope to land at an alternative airport

My mate reckons stick to the well known 'western' airlines & also the likes of Emirates / Singapore / Etihad where safety first is a higher priority

Here's a list of airlines banned from entering european air space
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The problem comes if you go on a trip where there are going to be internal flights, like in africa & south america
Should you happen to be flying to & in the Democratic Republic of the Congo what could possibly go wrong with Air Katanga ?   

Personally i would never fly on AirFrance, coz the french are in the main a bunch of cunts & i dont want to give them money

& no i wouldnt want to fly on a MaxJet, tho when booking a flight its not always easy to establish which actual aircraft & they do get swapped around

[Marmalade]

Some good data there @webpunter and I was pleased in a way to see I hadn’t flown with any airline on the banned list. The problem as you say is when taking internal flights in places like Africa where (I would add) some flights get cancelled for no apparent reason — and I do wonder if sometimes it’s when there aren’t enough paying passengers. I don’t know if it’s tradition but in some of these places the pilot also usually gets a round of applause just for landing the damn thing. I also dislike Air France with some intensity — though there are some places I’ve been to where they were the only carrier.

I remember the days when even flying in cattle class was a relatively luxurious and dignified experience (rather than a case of just getting there with the minimum of unpleasantness). I feel fortunate to have done so much travelling before things got as low as they are these days.

[webpunter]

Some good data there @webpunter and I was pleased in a way to see I hadn’t flown with any airline on the banned list. The problem as you say is when taking internal flights in places like Africa where (I would add) some flights get cancelled for no apparent reason — and I do wonder if sometimes it’s when there aren’t enough paying passengers. I don’t know if it’s tradition but in some of these places the pilot also usually gets a round of applause just for landing the damn thing. I also dislike Air France with some intensity — though there are some places I’ve been to where they were the only carrier.

I remember the days when even flying in cattle class was a relatively luxurious and dignified experience (rather than a case of just getting there with the minimum of unpleasantness). I feel fortunate to have done so much travelling before things got as low as they are these days.

 
Going on a package holiday rather than booking flights & hotels separate means most times a charter airline, think old aircraft with a tired interior.  You get that nice secure feeling, not 
Applause on landing 

I much prefer to fly with BA [they are still v.good on long haul] & the Captain who welcomes the passengers on board sounds like an ex RAF fighter pilot, tally ho chaps
Reassuringly comforting & the BA pilots do get better & more extensive / ongoing training

Back in the day for maybe 30-40 years or so after the war the pilots flying for the british airlines would sometimes have a bit of a laarf with air traffic
Air traffic in Germany genuinely asking if the crew had been to say Hamburg before [as in are they familiar with the airport] its a fair enuf question
The answer would be yes but we didnt land
Some bants would ensue & Air Traffic would be laarfing when they told whichever flight it was that most likely they would be in a holding pattern due to congestion, you cheeky f*****s !

In todays wokey world that would be instant dismissal for all involved

[Marmalade]

I’ve never flown with those charter companies. Much prefer to book things individually myself — and charters also don’t tend to go to places I like. They seem to specialise in enormous crowded hotels with a crowded beach. That to me isn’t travelling. British Airways have got a lot of flack in recent years but I still like travelling with them, short and long haul. The sense of British civility helps. Standards might have diminished a bit but it’s more upfront and one can know what to expect, decent baggage allowances long haul and not much of the hidden extra games that the ‘budget’ airlines play. Not keen on the new uniforms though.

[stampjones]

On the 737 thing I recently flew TUI down to Gambia on a 737-8 as it was described but when the computer the cabin crew use came on it proudly announced itself as a 737-MAX. Definitely some rebranding going on

[Marmalade]

On the 737 thing I recently flew TUI down to Gambia on a 737-8 as it was described but when the computer the cabin crew use came on it proudly announced itself as a 737-MAX. Definitely some rebranding going on

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Same plane. New paint job.

[hairdownthere]

Personally i would never fly on AirFrance, coz the french are in the main a bunch of cunts & i dont want to give them money

Flew with Air France once, never again.  Booked a seat ahead of the wings on a transatlantic flight, ended up being stuffed into the 2nd last row and they ran out of food half way down the plane.

French cunts

[PepeMAGA]

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[mr.bluesky]

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That must have been scary for everyone on board 
You can bet all these aircraft will be grounded and extensive checks carried out to the fuselage looking for cracks and metal fatigue. The Federal Aviation Authority will put out a world wide alert to all airline companies who use this aircraft to carry out safety checks if anything untoward is found.

[PepeMAGA]

That must have been scary for everyone on board 
You can bet all these aircraft will be grounded and extensive checks carried out to the fuselage looking for cracks and metal fatigue. The Federal Aviation Authority will put out a world wide alert to all airline companies who use this aircraft to carry out safety checks if anything untoward is found.

They've grounded the Alaskan ones. By the sound of it they maybe had a modification on the escape door to make it a fixed window?

[FLYING BLUE]

I stayed well clear of commenting on this thread, since it began.

In light of this latest 'event' concerning an Alaskan 'Max' - I will say one thing.

Although I have zero 1:1 experience of these particular aircraft, most of what I am told by friends & ex colleagues in the industry, leads me to believe there are just too many flaws in the original (rushed) designs, to create an overall 'fix' & I can honestly say that I personally, avoid them.

This latest failure could so very easily have been catastrophic - Boeing have some serious questions to answer.

[RandomGuy99]

Looks like a manufacturing fault not a design fault. The plane was only delivered 3 months ago.  Perhaps the side wall panel hadn't been installed properly?

[mr.bluesky]

The Boeing 737 Max aircraft has been involved in numerous fatal crashes over the last few years it was grounded in 2019 after incidents that caused 346 fatalities  (Lion Air and Ethiopian airlines) after problems with flight control sensors which made the aircraft go into automatic dives .  Looks like Boeing have got a lot of explaining to do again.

[RandomGuy99]

The Boeing 737 Max aircraft has been involved in numerous fatal crashes over the last few years it was grounded in 2019 after incidents that caused 346 fatalities  (Lion Air and Ethiopian airlines) after problems with flight control sensors which made the aircraft go into automatic dives .  Looks like Boeing have got a lot of explaining to do again.

I think there has been issues with QA sign off on some of the work on aircraft in the factory. They need to see if they can recover the panel that went missing. Apparently, the panel was a deactivated emergency exit which is designed to pop out in the event of an emergency. The panel was supposed to be deactivated in this particular aircraft as it doesn't have enough seats to require it to be activated. It was installed to future proof the aircraft should extra seats be added in the future at which point it would be activated.  There were kids in that row of seats, so it's possible that some tampering with the door may have taken place and perhaps the deactivatioj hadn't been done correctly and it was activated accidentally. 

[FLYING BLUE]

Looks like a manufacturing fault not a design fault. The plane was only delivered 3 months ago.  Perhaps the side wall panel hadn't been installed properly?

I refer not to the specific, individual aeroplane discussed above.

I refer to the original designs (designs, not design) of the model itself, which I consider to have numerous flaws that greatly concern me.

[PepeMAGA]

I think there has been issues with QA sign off on some of the work on aircraft in the factory. They need to see if they can recover the panel that went missing. Apparently, the panel was a deactivated emergency exit which is designed to pop out in the event of an emergency. The panel was supposed to be deactivated in this particular aircraft as it doesn't have enough seats to require it to be activated. It was installed to future proof the aircraft should extra seats be added in the future at which point it would be activated.  There were kids in that row of seats, so it's possible that some tampering with the door may have taken place and perhaps the deactivatioj hadn't been done correctly and it was activated accidentally.

Seems like a good shout re QA. This one was 3 months old, the Lion plane was 2 months old and the Ethiopian one 4 months old

[RandomGuy99]

Seems like a good shout re QA. This one was 3 months old, the Lion plane was 2 months old and the Ethiopian one 4 months old

The Lion and Ethiopian one both crashed due to the flight control system and lsck of pilot awareness of the performance of the system under certain conditions.

Whistleblowers in the factory have mentioned that some QA inspection records were being faked. I suspect the door hadn't been deactivated properly and it got set off, so nothing wrong with the design.

[stampjones]

I stayed well clear of commenting on this thread, since it began.

In light of this latest 'event' concerning an Alaskan 'Max' - I will say one thing.

Although I have zero 1:1 experience of these particular aircraft, most of what I am told by friends & ex colleagues in the industry, leads me to believe there are just too many flaws in the original (rushed) designs, to create an overall 'fix' & I can honestly say that I personally, avoid them.

This latest failure could so very easily have been catastrophic - Boeing have some serious questions to answer.

That tallies with Flying Blind by Peter Robinson. Exposes all the shenanigans that went on at Boeing and the rush to get the aircraft out. Also the pressure they put on to skip safety. A well written and interesting book

[DastardlyDick]

I 've seen on another forum that some 787-9s are designed with extra Emergency Exits in them so that Low Cost airlines e.g Ryanair) can cram more seats in. If the Airline doesn't need them, Boeing put a "plug" in, and that's what blew out.
The FAA have grounded all 787-9s that have this "plug" pending Inspections for ALL US operators , and banned them from US Airspace if they're not US owned/operated. The inspections take 4 - 8 hours per plane.

[RandomGuy99]

I 've seen on another forum that some 787-9s are designed with extra Emergency Exits in them so that Low Cost airlines e.g Ryanair) can cram more seats in. If the Airline doesn't need them, Boeing put a "plug" in, and that's what blew out.
The FAA have grounded all 787-9s that have this "plug" pending Inspections for ALL US operators , and banned them from US Airspace if they're not US owned/operated. The inspections take 4 - 8 hours per plane.

See reply 34

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Now I've always thoiught its a good idea to keep yer seat belt on;).

Poor wonan who had her childs shirt ripped off by decompressive forces!!!....

[chrishornx]

Now I've always thoiught its a good idea to keep yer seat belt on;).

Poor wonan who had her childs shirt ripped off by decompressive forces!!!....

Poor woman?  Poor child

[Thephoenix]

They were lucky that the aircraft wasn't at higher altitude and was close to an airport, from what I can gather.
No one was walking around, and most still had their seat belts fastened.

They've estimated where the door probably landed, and asking people to look around for it.
It's fortunate it hasn't caused damage or injury.

[mr.bluesky]

Now I've always thoiught its a good idea to keep yer seat belt on;).

Poor wonan who had her childs shirt ripped off by decompressive forces!!!....

I remember an incident many years ago when a window blew off inside the cockpit of a British Airways flight and the pilot was nearly sucked out of the window. The Co pilot had to land the plane whilst cabin crew members had to hang on to the pilots legs to stop him being sucked out of the aircraft . This incident was featured in an episode of Aircrash Investigation tv programme . A maintenance error and design fault was the cause of this. A major design rectification was put into place to prevent this ever happening again. Modern aircraft are now designed so that aircraft windows cannot blow outwards.
Luckily the aircraft managed to land safely and the pilot survived his terrifying ordeal.
* it is always recommended that you keep your seat belt on ( even if it's just loose) for the whole duration of a flight.

[RandomGuy99]

I remember an incident many years ago when a window blew off inside the cockpit of a British Airways flight and the pilot was nearly sucked out of the window. The Co pilot had to land the plane whilst cabin crew members had to hang on to the pilots legs to stop him being sucked out of the aircraft . This incident was featured in an episode of Aircrash Investigation tv programme . A maintenance error and design fault was the cause of this. A major design rectification was put into place to prevent this ever happening again. Modern aircraft are now designed so that aircraft windows cannot blow outwards.
Luckily the aircraft managed to land safely and the pilot survived his terrifying ordeal.
* it is always recommended that you keep your seat belt on ( even if it's just loose) for the whole duration of a flight.

Below a certain height an aircraft doesn't need pressurisation, hence why the pilot on this aircraft requested to descend. In the pilot being sucked out of the window once the aircraft had descended there was no longer a risk of anyone being sucked out of the aircraft as the pressure in the cockpit and the outside would have been the same.

[mr.bluesky]

Below a certain height an aircraft doesn't need pressurisation, hence why the pilot on this aircraft requested to descend. In the pilot being sucked out of the window once the aircraft had descended there was no longer a risk of anyone being sucked out of the aircraft as the pressure in the cockpit and the outside would have been the same.

Try telling that to the poor pilot who was half way out of the aircraft and being held onto by his legs. He also suffered severe frost bite as the air temperature is below freezing at altitude 

[RandomGuy99]

Try telling that to the poor pilot who was half way out of the aircraft and being held onto by his legs. He also suffered severe frost bite as the air temperature is below freezing at altitude 

I'm sure he did which is why they'll have done a rapid descent to lower altitude where it's not so cold.

[FLYING BLUE]

That tallies with Flying Blind by Peter Robinson. Exposes all the shenanigans that went on at Boeing and the rush to get the aircraft out. Also the pressure they put on to skip safety. A well written and interesting book

I've not read that book but I must say it sounds to be one that I probably should read - thank you

[scutty brown]

I remember an incident many years ago when a window blew off inside the cockpit of a British Airways flight and the pilot was nearly sucked out of the window. The Co pilot had to land the plane whilst cabin crew members had to hang on to the pilots legs to stop him being sucked out of the aircraft . This incident was featured in an episode of Aircrash Investigation tv programme . A maintenance error and design fault was the cause of this. A major design rectification was put into place to prevent this ever happening again. Modern aircraft are now designed so that aircraft windows cannot blow outwards.
Luckily the aircraft managed to land safely and the pilot survived his terrifying ordeal.
* it is always recommended that you keep your seat belt on ( even if it's just loose) for the whole duration of a flight.

That one was down to the wrong sized screws being used when a window was replaced........layers a paint on the screw hole had confused the fitters