Gas / Electricity standing charges

[Blackpool Rock]

I'll wait until the final outcome however it was on the news this morning that Ofgem are reviewing the cost of the standing charges for gas and electricity with an outcome expected by the end of the year

These charges have roughly doubled over the last year or so and apparently it was needed to bail out the companies that went bust when the wholesale cost of energy hiked up

Not sure why it should have gone on the standing charge rather than the unit cost of energy but it was at a time when the unit cost was going up and was above the price cap so Govt would have paid it though ultimately that's us anyway 

What the high standing charge does is to disproportionately affect the low users as a % of their bill / cost of energy with most people now paying around £300/yr or £25/mth just to be connected to the grid before they even use and energy

The standing charge used to be around 1/3 or half of my bill before it was hiked up as i'm a low user, last winter when the unit price of energy was rocketing up I took measures to cut my bills even more and invested in an electric blanket which was great as it meant I often didn't need any heating on and was far warmer this way than heating an entire room

Despite lowering my usage my bills didn't drop due to paying more standing charge.

I've always said that I agreed with paying "Something" towards the infrastructure but it's clear that the energy companies have just used it as a stick to hit us with and obtain more revenue.

I'm actually now thinking it would be good to totally scrap it and simply add it onto the unit cost of energy so that if you use less you pay less and if you use more you pay more
The thing is that these companies are now commercial ventures so providing the facilities / infrastructure is surely part of their overheads of doing business and needs to be amortised into the cost of the product they are selling but only when they sell it 
Take any other business selling goods to the public whether it's a shop or McDonalds etc and if I buy a burger then the part of their overheads such as business rates and staff wages etc is included in the cost of what I purchase
What nobody would think fair is that everyone in the town should stump up 50 pence to cover the overheads even if they don't ever make a purchase 

I can't see it being scrapped but more likely it will go back to roughly where it was before the massive price hike and it will be claimed to be a big win even though in reality it isn't

[standardpostage]

Agree standing charges are a rip off 

You still have to pay the energy company £300 yearly approximately, even if you don't use any energy at all.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

From what I've heard that they pay for the costs of maintining the distribution and delivery network.

Companies like the national grid and such as UK Powernetworks...

[Bertiebeenthere]

I was also under the impression the standing charge also included paying for meter readings, I've not had mine read for over three years!

[Blackpool Rock]

From what I've heard that they pay for the costs of maintining the distribution and delivery network.

Companies like the national grid and such as UK Powernetworks...

That's the impression I was always under so how come the utility companies who are basically just the people who bill you were allowed to hike the standing charge up to about double what it previously was on the basis it was to pay for the energy companies who went bust 

I believe Ofgem put a cap on the standing charge just like the unit cost of energy but as soon as the cap went up so did the rates as it was a way of grabbing more money regardless of someone's usage or ability to pay 

[RandomGuy99]

From British Gas

"A standing charge is a fixed daily amount that you pay on your bill regardless of how much energy you use. Standing charges apply to both gas and electricity and will vary by supplier, where you live, how you pay and what meter you have.

Standing charges cover the suppliers cost of:

1. Maintaining the energy supply network that delivers gas and electricity to your home
2. Visiting homes to take meter readings
3. Supporting government social and environmental schemes like the Warm Home Discount
4. Failed suppliers exiting the energy market – electricity only

It’s the cost of having a gas or electricity supply – like line rental for energy."

It's also covering the cost of upgrading the energy supply network to handle electric cars, feed in from solar panels and smart meters.

[Blackpool Rock]

As part of this review they are asking bill payers and businesses for their views and opinions on the standing charge, for anyone who thinks it's a rip off they can e-mail their comments to -
[email protected]

I'll be making my thoughts clear 

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[Watts.E.Dunn]

If they are forced to lower the standing chage you'll see the unit charge rise...

[Blackpool Rock]

If they are forced to lower the standing chage you'll see the unit charge rise...

Correct however not by much

Take someone who currently uses £300 a year in energy costs, they also pay £300 a year in standing charge so their total bill is £600
Compare that with someone who uses £3000 a year in energy costs, they also pay £300 a year in standing charge so a total of £3300

Is it really fair that someone on a low income who does everything they can to cut back their usage effectively pays 100% the unit cost 
For the high user the standing charge only equates to 10% of their bill

Apparently there are around 28 Million domestic electricity customers and 23 Million Gas, to simplify it lets say 25 Million paying £300/yr = £75 Billion just in standing charge 

Looking online the average cost of gas & electric is around £2000 so to amortise the average £300 standing charge across all customers would need an increase of around 15% to the unit cost of energy however everyone would have £300 less to pay in standing charge

[PilotMan]

Take someone who currently uses £300 a year in energy costs, they also pay £300 a year in standing charge so their total bill is £600
Compare that with someone who uses £3000 a year in energy costs, they also pay £300 a year in standing charge so a total of £3300

Wow, is it really the same for a smaller home, lower energy user?

That seems absurd.

[petermisc]

Wow, is it really the same for a smaller home, lower energy user?
That seems absurd.

No it doesn't.

It used to be to cover the cost of getting the leccy and gas to your home (laying and maintaining the cable and pipe networks, etc.), supply resilience (ensuring that there is adequate extra supply available in case demand increases), the metering and billing costs, etc.  These costs are pretty much the same irrespective of the size of your home, and how much power you use (unless you have a REALLY BIG home using industrial quantities of power).  If you don't use any power on a particular day, the supply network to your house still has to be maintained, adequate supply has to be available should you suddenly decide to turn everything on, the billing still has to be carried out, etc.

Unfortunately the government has loaded significant other costs onto the standing charges, which has significantly inflated them.  But the basic concept that people should still pay the cost of maintaining the supply to their house, even if they don't actually use any power, seems very reasonable to me.

[PepeMAGA]

I thought the standing charge went up this year on the recommendation of Ofgem?

[RandomGuy99]

No it doesn't.

It used to be to cover the cost of getting the leccy and gas to your home (laying and maintaining the cable and pipe networks, etc.), supply resilience (ensuring that there is adequate extra supply available in case demand increases), the metering and billing costs, etc.  These costs are pretty much the same irrespective of the size of your home, and how much power you use (unless you have a REALLY BIG home using industrial quantities of power).  If you don't use any power on a particular day, the supply network to your house still has to be maintained, adequate supply has to be available should you suddenly decide to turn everything on, the billing still has to be carried out, etc.

Unfortunately the government has loaded significant other costs onto the standing charges, which has significantly inflated them.  But the basic concept that people should still pay the cost of maintaining the supply to their house, even if they don't actually use any power, seems very reasonable to me.

National Grid is having to invest a lot of money into the distribution network because of the increased use of electricity for cars and solar panels, wind turbines and other sources feeding energy into the network, but how much of the investment in their assets should be paid by the bill payers and how much by their shareholders as it's their company's assets after all.  The same goes for the water companies who have been paying nice dividends and are now increasing their bills to get us to pay for improving the water networks.

Gas companies are having to invest in gas storage and obviously the gas distribution network needs constant maintenance, so the money has to come from somewhere.

[PilotMan]

No it doesn't.

It used to be to cover the cost of getting the leccy and gas to your home (laying and maintaining the cable and pipe networks, etc.), supply resilience (ensuring that there is adequate extra supply available in case demand increases), the metering and billing costs, etc.  These costs are pretty much the same irrespective of the size of your home, and how much power you use (unless you have a REALLY BIG home using industrial quantities of power).  If you don't use any power on a particular day, the supply network to your house still has to be maintained, adequate supply has to be available should you suddenly decide to turn everything on, the billing still has to be carried out, etc.

Unfortunately the government has loaded significant other costs onto the standing charges, which has significantly inflated them.  But the basic concept that people should still pay the cost of maintaining the supply to their house, even if they don't actually use any power, seems very reasonable to me.

When I said absurd, I meant unfair.

It's like the old Poll Tax, the reason people got pissed off was because everyone was expected to pay the same amount per person, irrespective of the size of their house.

I use a massive amount of electricity. It just seems unfair that someone who uses a very small amount of electricity, a pensioner living in a one bed flat for example, should be expected to pay the same standing charge as me.

[RandomGuy99]

When I said absurd, I meant unfair.

It's like the old Poll Tax, the reason people got pissed off was because everyone was expected to pay the same amount per person, irrespective of the size of their house.

I use a massive amount of electricity. It just seems unfair that someone who uses a very small amount of electricity, a pensioner living in a one bed flat for example, should be expected to pay the same standing charge as me.

Perhaps they'll make a change to banding of standing charge based on the size of your property ?

[petermisc]

I use a massive amount of electricity. It just seems unfair that someone who uses a very small amount of electricity, a pensioner living in a one bed flat for example, should be expected to pay the same standing charge as me.

It would be unfair if they paid the same for their electricity, but that is not the case.

The alternative to standing charges is to increase the unit costs.  But that means those who use more electricity would be subsidising the bills of those who use less.  Why should those in council properties who only have electric heating and therefore have high electric bills see their charges go up to subsidise those who heat their homes by environmentally damaging agas?

[petermisc]

I thought the standing charge went up this year on the recommendation of Ofgem?

Ofgem work to the rules laid down by the government.

[PilotMan]

Hopefully by next winter I won't have to worry about energy bills again, if my new house is finished. The plan is to be self sufficient in energy, I'm installing a lot of solar and a ground or hopefully a water source heat pump, and MVHR.

[Blackpool Rock]

Hopefully by next winter I won't have to worry about energy bills again, if my new house is finished. The plan is to be self sufficient in energy, I'm installing a lot of solar and a ground or hopefully a water source heat pump, and MVHR.

Yeah ground source on new builds makes sense, I know someone who has it and the underfloor heating is great however what I think is a major flaw is that they still have to use electricity to power the system 

Surely that's a major flaw in the design of the systems and instead of thinking of it as a heat pump it should be designed as an energy extraction system of which some energy is used to produce heat and some the power to work the system 

[RandomGuy99]

Hopefully by next winter I won't have to worry about energy bills again, if my new house is finished. The plan is to be self sufficient in energy, I'm installing a lot of solar and a ground or hopefully a water source heat pump, and MVHR.

I'm doing something similar. I'm even capturing the downdraft from the helicopter and pushing it over a wind turbine and I have a wave maker and wave energy recovery device for the lake. It does get in the way of the motor launch though.

[Blackpool Rock]

I'm doing something similar. I'm even capturing the downdraft from the helicopter and pushing it over a wind turbine and I have a wave maker and wave energy recovery device for the lake. It does get in the way of the motor launch though.

Fuck me are you a Thunderbird   

[PilotMan]

Yeah ground source on new builds makes sense, I know someone who has it and the underfloor heating is great however what I think is a major flaw is that they still have to use electricity to power the system 

Surely that's a major flaw in the design of the systems and instead of thinking of it as a heat pump it should be designed as an energy extraction system of which some energy is used to produce heat and some the power to work the system 

It does seem odd, but other than electricity, what could power the pump though?

[PilotMan]

I'm doing something similar. I'm even capturing the downdraft from the helicopter and pushing it over a wind turbine and I have a wave maker and wave energy recovery device for the lake. It does get in the way of the motor launch though.

You must have a big...lake

[Blackpool Rock]

It does seem odd, but other than electricity, what could power the pump though?

Could they not use some of the heat extracted from the ground to produce electric to power the motor and effectively make it like perpetual motion 

Logically you would need a slightly bigger system and I can see that an external power source would probably be needed to kick start the system or sometime help it along but surely only in the same way that an ICE engine is initially started by a starter motor 
I guess having solar panels to power the heat pump with some battery storage would also overcome the issue

[PilotMan]

I guess having solar panels to power the heat pump with some battery storage would also overcome the issue

That's the plan, batteries are cheaper than ever, and appear to be coming down in price. The tariffs for supplying back to the grid at peak and topping up your batteries off peak also help.

[PilotMan]

Could they not use some of the heat extracted from the ground to produce electric to power the motor and effectively make it like perpetual motion 

Logically you would need a slightly bigger system and I can see that an external power source would probably be needed to kick start the system or sometime help it along but surely only in the same way that an ICE engine is initially started by a starter motor 

I'm not a scientist, is there someone on here with a degree in physics that could explain if that works?

I think Blackpool Rock might have just solved the worlds energy problem. 

[PilotMan]

I'm doing something similar. I'm even capturing the downdraft from the helicopter and pushing it over a wind turbine and I have a wave maker and wave energy recovery device for the lake. It does get in the way of the motor launch though.

You figured out why I'm called PilotMan 

[Blackpool Rock]

I'm not a scientist, is there someone on here with a degree in physics that could explain if that works?

I think Blackpool Rock might have just solved the worlds energy problem. 

Yeah i'll accept the Nobel prize but I don't want any financial gain from it as it's my gift to the world and i'm sure that world peace will come as a result of it 

[RandomGuy99]

I'm not a scientist, is there someone on here with a degree in physics that could explain if that works?

I think Blackpool Rock might have just solved the worlds energy problem. 

Don't they have to pump the water down into the ground for it to pickup the heat and then come back up again?

What powers the pump?

[Blackpool Rock]

Don't they have to pump the water down into the ground for it to pickup the heat and then come back up again?

What powers the pump?

Currently an external electricity source powers the pump or compressor, what i'm saying is rather than using an external power source to power the pump why not just take some of the "Free energy" from the ground / lake etc to produce electricity to power the pump making it a closed loop system 

I can't believe that some Boffin hasn't already done it 

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[RandomGuy99]

Currently an external electricity source powers the pump or compressor, what i'm saying is rather than using an external power source to power the pump why not just take some of the "Free energy" from the ground / lake etc to produce electricity to power the pump making it a closed loop system 

I can't believe that some Boffin hasn't already done it 

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Because to get the free energy out you need a pump first.

Have you looked at Sterling Engines?

[PilotMan]

Don't they have to pump the water down into the ground for it to pickup the heat and then come back up again?

What powers the pump?

Yes, with a water or ground source heat pump, water is pumped through the pipework that is buried underground / underwater. The water is heated up by the latent heat stored in the earth / water and then "exchanged". The pump is electric powered.

Typically the exchange rate is 3-4 times the kw amount electricity used.

[RandomGuy99]

Yes, with a water or ground source heat pump, water is pumped through the pipework that is buried underground / underwater. The water is heated up by the latent heat stored in the earth / water and then "exchanged". The pump is electric powered.

Typically the exchange rate is 3-4 times the kw amount electricity used.

Yes, you have to put some energy in to tap the latent heat down in the earth.

Damn energy issues not solved. Nobel Prize put back in the box and posted.

[PepeMAGA]

I have solar, battery, electric rads and an air source heat pump for hot water. I would say the weakest link in the system is the rads, they take a lot of electricity to get central heating level hot and they don't really give that deep great you get from all the pipes tube the house. The solar didn't cut it this time of year either. But very cheap in the summer, just standing charge to pay.

[Blackpool Rock]

Because to get the free energy out you need a pump first.

Have you looked at Sterling Engines?

But that's what i'm saying, why not use some of the free energy to power the pump 
I've already said that you may initially need an external power source to start the pump up in the same way an ICE engine has a starter motor

[RandomGuy99]

But that's what i'm saying, why not use some of the free energy to power the pump 
I've already said that you may initially need an external power source to start the pump up in the same way an ICE engine has a starter motor

I think heat pumps are just used for heating not for electricity generation.  They exchange the heat or cold from the ground with the heat/cold from the house just through being passed over each other. Electricity is coming from wind or solar, so after a while your are making enough electricity to power the pump.

[Blackpool Rock]

I think heat pumps are just used for heating not for electricity generation.  They exchange the heat or cold from the ground with the heat/cold from the house just through being passed over each other. Electricity is coming from wind or solar, so after a while your are making enough electricity to power the pump.

Yes the heat pump itself looks to compress / pump the liquid around but that doesn't mean that the energy from the ground couldn't be used to power the compressor / pump although it would probably require another device to do it, so basically add on another device that takes the energy / heat from the ground and uses it to produce electricity.

The same could be argued about having to use an external electricity source to power the pump, where do you get it from 
It may be from burning fossil fuel; it may be from a wind turbine; it may be from solar but ultimately you are taking an energy source and converting it to electric to power the pump.
What i'm saying is substitute the coal / gas / wind / solar with the fundamental ground source energy which you are actually using anyway and use part of it to somehow generate electric to power the pump, effectively using some of the geothermal energy to produce electric

[RandomGuy99]

Yes the heat pump itself looks to compress / pump the liquid around but that doesn't mean that the energy from the ground couldn't be used to power the compressor / pump although it would probably require another device to do it, so basically add on another device that takes the energy / heat from the ground and uses it to produce electricity.

The same could be argued about having to use an external electricity source to power the pump, where do you get it from 
It may be from burning fossil fuel; it may be from a wind turbine; it may be from solar but ultimately you are taking an energy source and converting it to electric to power the pump.
What i'm saying is substitute the coal / gas / wind / solar with the fundamental ground source energy which you are actually using anyway and use part of it to somehow generate electric to power the pump, effectively using some of the geothermal energy to produce electric

I guess there's maybe more loss converting heat into electricity, so they don't do it?

Interesting discussion though.

[PilotMan]

I have solar, battery, electric rads and an air source heat pump for hot water. I would say the weakest link in the system is the rads, they take a lot of electricity to get central heating level hot and they don't really give that deep great you get from all the pipes tube the house. The solar didn't cut it this time of year either. But very cheap in the summer, just standing charge to pay.

Are you cash positive in the summer - i.e. are you selling your excess back to the grid?

Usually the amount of heat that a heat pump generates isn't close to that of a gas boiler, that's why most companies therefore recommend underfloor heating. That isn't always possible with a retrofit, but easy enough with a new build.

Whilst I'm optimistic about my build, I'm also realistic. Even with a big solar install, I'm pretty sure I'll be drawing from the grid in the winter. I'm hoping to make use of these new tariffs by Octopus and top the batteries up overnight at the cheap tariff. And also to balance the annual bill by selling the excess to the grid in the summer.

I've watched a few videos on Youtube where people are buying cheap electricity at night (loading their batteries) and selling it back to the grid during the peak daytime period at a higher price. You don't even need solar.

There's a new housing development not far from me, the developer has built the houses with solar / batteries in conjunction with a tariff from Octopus. They are guaranteeing zero energy bills.

[PilotMan]

I guess there's maybe more loss converting heat into electricity, so they don't do it?

Interesting discussion though.

I'm sure it's going to come.


Many years ago I was at my friends house in Stockholm. He was having a bore hole drilled while I was there. He said his heating would be powered from water that was pumped and recirculated deep underground. He said that the heat a hundred or so meters down ( I can't remember the exact depth) was very very high. Apparently this is a common way to heat houses, The initial installation cost is comparatively high though.

[RandomGuy99]

I'm sure it's going to come.


Many years ago I was at my friends house in Stockholm. He was having a bore hole drilled while I was there. He said his heating would be powered from water that was pumped and recirculated deep underground. He said that the heat a hundred or so meters down ( I can't remember the exact depth) was very very high. Apparently this is a common way to heat houses, The initial installation cost is comparatively high though.

That's what a ground source heat pump is. It's taking the heat from down in the ground and using it to heat a fluid which then heats your home.

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[PilotMan]

That's what a ground source heat pump is. It's taking the heat from down in the ground and using it to heat a fluid which then heats your home.

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Yeah, I kind of figured that it was the same.

I suppose because it's totally vertical it doesn't seem like what we do in the UK - which is lay out miles of pipe horizontally.

He told me that a lot of Stockholm is solid rock a long way down - I wonder if that's different / superior to what we have in the UK?

I found this article - apparently they bore down 100 - 200 Metres

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[Watts.E.Dunn]

Most everyone has a heat pump at home its called a fridge! It simply takes the "heat" from inside siad unit and "pumps" it out the back! A exrernal heat pump is very much the same thing!..

Used to me a maker called Kelvinator google Lords Kelvin the scientist!

Main problem with most heat pumps is that they dont get the output temp high enough like a domestic gas boiler 'tho i think some are getting better.

I've got a reversavle Aircon unit here as long as its not that far below freezing outsite a Killowatt in reaults in a few Kw of heat:)


DIY here;!..

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[PilotMan]

DIY here;!..

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Thanks for sharing - they stock / sell a lot of brands - that's useful.

 

[RandomGuy99]

Yeah, I kind of figured that it was the same.

I suppose because it's totally vertical it doesn't seem like what we do in the UK - which is lay out miles of pipe horizontally.

He told me that a lot of Stockholm is solid rock a long way down - I wonder if that's different / superior to what we have in the UK?

I found this article - apparently they bore down 100 - 200 Metres

External Link/Members Only.

Must depend on the space you have and the geology.  I thought they just drilled them straight down here too, but I could be wrong.

AC units don't create cold they take the heat from the air leaving cold. An air source heat pump does something similar.

[m4rmite]

From what I've heard that they pay for the costs of maintining the distribution and delivery network.

Companies like the national grid and such as UK Powernetworks...

They certainly do, that would be why Cadent Gas ( who look after the pipelines for 11 million homes) made £900 million profit last year.

How do they ever cope on such a small standing charge

[PepeMAGA]

Are you cash positive in the summer - i.e. are you selling your excess back to the grid?

Usually the amount of heat that a heat pump generates isn't close to that of a gas boiler, that's why most companies therefore recommend underfloor heating. That isn't always possible with a retrofit, but easy enough with a new build.

Whilst I'm optimistic about my build, I'm also realistic. Even with a big solar install, I'm pretty sure I'll be drawing from the grid in the winter. I'm hoping to make use of these new tariffs by Octopus and top the batteries up overnight at the cheap tariff. And also to balance the annual bill by selling the excess to the grid in the summer.

I've watched a few videos on Youtube where people are buying cheap electricity at night (loading their batteries) and selling it back to the grid during the peak daytime period at a higher price. You don't even need solar.

There's a new housing development not far from me, the developer has built the houses with solar / batteries in conjunction with a tariff from Octopus. They are guaranteeing zero energy bills.

I am but it doesn't seem to be worth a lot even with Octopus best rate. I'm not sure if the panels need optimization or cleaning.

I don't have the heat pump providing central heating, but for hot water it's good, though is a bit noisy when it's running. So you have to be careful where you put it.

I have seen that on the octopus app re using the battery to save it when it's cheapest, in not sure if you need Octopus kit to do it though.

In theory mine should be neutral on energy cost (according to the certificate) but if I have the rads how I would normal central heating it would be very pricey right now. That being said, from about April to September I didn't use the heating at all and heat through the windows etc was enough to keep it comfortable.

[PepeMAGA]

Most everyone has a heat pump at home its called a fridge! It simply takes the "heat" from inside siad unit and "pumps" it out the back! A exrernal heat pump is very much the same thing!..

Used to me a maker called Kelvinator google Lords Kelvin the scientist!

Main problem with most heat pumps is that they dont get the output temp high enough like a domestic gas boiler 'tho i think some are getting better.

I've got a reversavle Aircon unit here as long as its not that far below freezing outsite a Killowatt in reaults in a few Kw of heat:)


DIY here;!..

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5kw batteries for £1600 seems good

[Blackpool Rock]

So it seemed like good news this morning that the price cap on energy is going down and the headline about saving the average user £238 a year, it was on in the background so I didn't quite catch it at the time but they mentioned the standing charges which will be capped at 60p/day for Electric and 31p/day for gas (variable by region), that's more than the current cap I thought 

Turns out that it is indeed more than the current cap and despite a consultation being in progress where a lot of people have called on the standing charges to be reduced to their level from a couple of years ago or even be scrapped the retards deciding what these caps should be have taken the decision to increase them, talk about not reading the room  Someone needs sacking for this decision 

As a low user my overall bills will now probably increase despite the price going down 

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[petermisc]

So it seemed like good news this morning that the price cap on energy is going down and the headline about saving the average user £238 a year, it was on in the background so I didn't quite catch it at the time but they mentioned the standing charges which will be capped at 60p/day for Electric and 31p/day for gas (variable by region), that's more than the current cap I thought 

Currently the cap is 53.34p per day for electricity and 29.60p per day for gas.  As they say, thr increase will add about £28 per year.  You have got to be a VERY low user if that is going to outstrip your annual savings made by the unit price reduction.

By not allowing the suppliers to take action against those who couldn't or wouldn't pay their bills, the government effectively forced the suppliers to incur debt.  That debt has got to be paid off one way or another.  Logically, as it was the government that forced that debt, it should be the government who pays for it - i.e. out of our taxes.  But increasing taxes could be unpopular, especially in an election year, so they are doing it through increasing the standing charges.  Effectively it is a hidden tax.  Remember that when they trumpet the tax reductions they are making in the budget.

Will they reduce the standing charge once this debt has been paid off?  Somehow I doubt it.  Once people have become accustomed to paying it, I suspect that they will find something else to justify it.  Green measures or such-like.