The Politics Thread

[JontyR]

IMO Labour need to keep pushing how close it is and the fact people need to get out and vote

I can see your point, but I think that would be just the message the Tories want. It could provide a little momentum amongst their supporters when they are presently moribund.

The message I thnk Labour need to push is something like "we are seeking the mandate of the British People. We want to represent a broad coalition of people that want society and services to be more joined up, more efficient, more responsible and more reactive to people's needs. We want people to join in the rejection of the politics where politicians are only in touch with contents of their hedgefunds."

[akauya]

The way I see it, about the tories going after Angela Rayner, whether she gets the all clear from the police or not, to a certain extent, the damage has been done. Attacks like this, picked up by our sensationalist mainstream media (especially right-wing media) and exponentially spread by social media are designed to cause damage, whether the basis of the criticism is false or not.

While some people and especially many young people seem to have a knack for seeing through the tories' attack strategy, unfortunately, the same can't be said for everyone. A lot of people tend to skim headlines and jump into conclusions without delving into actual details. Our lives are so busy that investing time (and that is the crux of the matter) is way too taxing on some us to properly investigate or critically analyse whatever the medial (main and social) throw at us.

Our tendency to react to soundbites and headlines instead of carefully examining the facts will help the tories to sway public opinion. The damage is essentially done once these narratives get ingrained. I envisage attacks like this - from all political parties - will increase when we get closer to the GE, but I think tories have the edge on these kind of 'emotive' attack stories.

[Followyourdick]

Have been reading the reports from Trumps trial in NY yesterday when Stormy was giving evidence and probably carrying on today I think, fucking funny hearing about the orange shitgibbon squirming.
Lock the cunt up.

[lostandfound]

I read a comment in the Telegraph about Rayner gate that rang true to me.

Her schtick is that she is an ordinary working class woman, and the reason for the Tories trying to get her tax returns published is that they will show that she is far from that. The allegations of wrongdoing are a sideshow, just a mechanism to get them published.

It was also pointed out in the Guardian (and elsewhere) that in 2020 Angela Rayner demanded that a Tory by-election candidate (Jill Mortimer) should be ordered to publish her tax returns.

[jackdaw]

If you tap into the younger generation in particular you will see that it has built on already negative views of tories.  Especially that multi millionaire and billionaire tories, some of whom have dodged huge amounts of tax by, for example being non dom, are going after a working class single mum herself brought up by a single parent with mental health issues. She possibly avoided perhaps £1,500 and if so probably by accident given how complex that part of tax law is and she would not have had a well paid tax adviser.

Angela has one of the few genuine working class back stories in Parliament so the toffs lining up to have a go is not a good look.

Realistically how many of those youngsters were going to vote Tory anyway?

Put it this way, the damage done to Labour if it transpires she’s fiddled her tax will be far greater than damage to Tories if she’s cleared.

[jackdaw]

I can see your point, but I think that would be just the message the Tories want. It could provide a little momentum amongst their supporters when they are presently moribund.

The message I thnk Labour need to push is something like "we are seeking the mandate of the British People. We want to represent a broad coalition of people that want society and services to be more joined up, more efficient, more responsible and more reactive to people's needs. We want people to join in the rejection of the politics where politicians are only in touch with contents of their hedgefunds."

That bit about wanting services to be more joined up is something I’d love to see, in particular for NHS, welfare services, Nursing Homes to be better integrated.

[george r]

Does anyone suddenly feel better off for the couple of NI cuts they have already made?  Noone I know does.  Even if Sunak was to sneak in a few more tax cuts, it is too late for any feel good factor to feed through.  They would probably do the Tories more harm than good.  Most people I know would rather we had a properly funded NHS than a few pence off tax.

with the frozen allowances', taxes have gone up each yr so most are still worse off 

[myothernameis]

Does anyone suddenly feel better off for the couple of NI cuts they have already made?  No one I know does.  Even if Sunak was to sneak in a few more tax cuts, it is too late for any feel good factor to feed through.  They would probably do the Tories more harm than good.  Most people I know would rather we had a properly funded NHS than a few pence off tax.

I'm worse of now, and the NI cut dose nothing for me, and now for the first time in 5 years, I'm being taxed.  So now from my earning, I lose around £25 in income tax, all due to the tax allowance being frozen

But  I have found a legal way to dodge paying any tax, or even reduce the tax I would pay to around £5.   So I have increase the amount paid to my private pension, and come Mar 2025 I will take 25% of my private pension, tax free, and then repeat the same in tax year 2025

[mills_and_bhuna]

Have been reading the reports from Trumps trial in NY yesterday when Stormy was giving evidence and probably carrying on today I think, fucking funny hearing about the orange shitgibbon squirming.
Lock the cunt up.

Lock him up?
You sound as deranged as De Niro
Sounds like the papers you read have an agenda.
I don't think when all is said and done that he's any different from all these Senators that enter Congress moderately affluent and leave filthy rich.
His real crime is he draws attention to the swamp .

[jackdaw]

See latest defecting mp (Natalie Elphicke) from Conservatives to Labour is causing consternation among a fair number of Labour supporters…to put it succinctly it’s hard to discern which, if any, socialist beliefs she holds.

Without getting into detail, if I was Labours preferred candidate to contest next election for that constituency I’d be royally pissed if I was passed over to allow her to stand as Labour candidate.

[Squire Haggard]

See latest defecting mp (Natalie Elphicke) from Conservatives to Labour is causing consternation among a fair number of Labour supporters…to put it succinctly it’s hard to discern which, if any, socialist beliefs she holds.

Without getting into detail, if I was Labours preferred candidate to contest next election for that constituency I’d be royally pissed if I was passed over to allow her to stand as Labour candidate.

I laughed out loud when I read her reasons for jumping ship to Labour. IMO, its likely that Labour will be quite happy letting in the dinghy migrants, when compared to the Conservatives. I think the real reason could be that she wants to keep her job as an MP.
Believe it or not, some will put cash before principles.

''“Rishi Sunak’s government is failing to keep our borders safe and secure,” she said in a statement. “Lives are being lost in the English Channel while small boat arrivals are once again at record levels. It’s clear they have failed to keep our borders secure and cannot be trusted.”

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[mills_and_bhuna]

See latest defecting mp (Natalie Elphicke) from Conservatives to Labour is causing consternation among a fair number of Labour supporters…to put it succinctly it’s hard to discern which, if any, socialist beliefs she holds.

Without getting into detail, if I was Labours preferred candidate to contest next election for that constituency I’d be royally pissed if I was passed over to allow her to stand as Labour candidate.

I could say that about 2/3 of the Labour Parliamentary Party.
Especially the prominent ones.
Starmer, Streeting, Lammy, Reeves, Thornberry.
All frauds with not a Socialist bone in their body

[timsussex]

See latest defecting mp (Natalie Elphicke) from Conservatives to Labour is causing consternation among a fair number of Labour supporters…to put it succinctly it’s hard to discern which, if any, socialist beliefs she holds.

Without getting into detail, if I was Labours preferred candidate to contest next election for that constituency I’d be royally pissed if I was passed over to allow her to stand as Labour candidate.

except that she has previously stated that she will step down at the next election - she may of course exercise her woman's prerogative

[RedKettle]

Her schtick is that she is an ordinary working class woman, and the reason for the Tories trying to get her tax returns published is that they will show that she is far from that. The allegations of wrongdoing are a sideshow, just a mechanism to get them published.

Not sure how it is only a "schtick" given her background.  Grew up in extreme poverty and then worked as a carer so very much working class woman.  Has done alright for herself but that is from her own efforts, unlike most tories.  They should focus on policy rather than digging into history for smears.

[RedKettle]

But  I have found a legal way to dodge paying any tax, or even reduce the tax I would pay to around £5.   So I have increase the amount paid to my private pension, and come Mar 2025 I will take 25% of my private pension, tax free, and then repeat the same in tax year 2025

You know you can only take one lot of 25%?  If you are taking 25% of the whole fund in March then the following year you can only take 25% of new contributions.  Or do you mean that this March you are taking 25% of a proportion of the fund?

[lostandfound]

Not sure how it is only a "schtick" given her background.  Grew up in extreme poverty and then worked as a carer so very much working class woman.  Has done alright for herself but that is from her own efforts, unlike most tories.  They should focus on policy rather than digging into history for smears.

Plenty of examples of self made Tories, and Labour politicians from comfortable and privileged backgrounds.

If there is nothing to be found in her tax returns, why does she refuse to publish them despite demanding that others do the same?

She demanded that an unelected Tory candidate publish her tax returns in 2020. For her, as a putative Deputy Prime Minister to refuse to do the same smacks of hypocrisy and a lack of integrity.

[jackdaw]

Not sure how it is only a "schtick" given her background.  Grew up in extreme poverty and then worked as a carer so very much working class woman.  Has done alright for herself but that is from her own efforts, unlike most tories.  They should focus on policy rather than digging into history for smears.

Do you honestly believe that she (or any other competent Labour politician) would refuse "to dig into history" if they stood a good chance of finding something that might damage a senior Tory??

[myothernameis]

You know you can only take one lot of 25%?  If you are taking 25% of the whole fund in March then the following year you can only take 25% of new contributions.  Or do you mean that this March you are taking 25% of a proportion of the fund?

25% tax free taken in March 2025 for the tax year 2024/25, and then 25% tax free in the tax year 2025/26.

The pension rules state for me to take 25% tax free, I must submit withdrawal form around Marcc

[petermisc]

25% tax free taken in March 2025 for the tax year 2024/25, and then 25% tax free in the tax year 2025/26.

The pension rules state for me to take 25% tax free, I must submit withdrawal form around Marcc

Certainly paying into a pension is a way of reducing your tax liability.  And withdrawing it in yearly installments, rather than in one big lump sum, can likewise be a way of reducing your tax, if it keeps you below your yearly tax threshold, for example.

25% of what you withdraw in March 2025 will be tax free, but don't forget that the remaining 75% of that withdrawal will be subject to tax.  And likewise 25% of what you withdraw in 2025/26 will be tax free, but again the remainder of that withdrawal will still be taxable.

I would strongly advise you to get some expert advice, as otherwise you could well end up with an unwelcome and unexpected tax bill at the end of the year.

[RedKettle]

25% tax free taken in March 2025 for the tax year 2024/25, and then 25% tax free in the tax year 2025/26.

The pension rules state for me to take 25% tax free, I must submit withdrawal form around Marcc

I repeat that is not right if you mean 25% of the whole fund. In that case you can only do it once. You could take for example 25% of 10% of the fund and do that for another 9 years.  Please take advice.

[RedKettle]

Plenty of examples of self made Tories, and Labour politicians from comfortable and privileged backgrounds.

That is obviously true but not relevant to this case. She is not from a comfortable background.

[RedKettle]

Plenty of examples of self made Tories, and Labour politicians from comfortable and privileged backgrounds.

If there is nothing to be found in her tax returns, why does she refuse to publish them despite demanding that others do the same?

She demanded that an unelected Tory candidate publish her tax returns in 2020. For her, as a putative Deputy Prime Minister to refuse to do the same smacks of hypocrisy and a lack of integrity.

Her tax return is likely to be irrelevant, she has said she did not pay tax so the transaction would probably not be on the return. It would add nothing to the debate. 

[myothernameis]

I repeat that is not right if you mean 25% of the whole fund. In that case you can only do it once. You could take for example 25% of 10% of the fund and do that for another 9 years.  Please take advice.

Thanks for helping me with this, and found you correct after checking

[RedKettle]

Do you honestly believe that she (or any other competent Labour politician) would refuse "to dig into history" if they stood a good chance of finding something that might damage a senior Tory??

No and I never said that and it has nothing to do with what you quoted. I am giving an opinion that their tactics over her tax affairs have not worked and have backfired with a number of people because of the reasons I said. I also said that might change depending on what comes out from the police investigation.

[RedKettle]

Thanks for helping me with this, and found you correct after checking

 

[jackdaw]

No and I never said that and it has nothing to do with what you quoted. I am giving an opinion that their tactics over her tax affairs have not worked and have backfired with a number of people because of the reasons I said. I also said that might change depending on what comes out from the police investigation.

Cheers for explanation.

As you say the “game” hasn’t played out to its conclusion yet, Angela Rayner hasn’t been cleared yet. If she is, the Conservatives have lost a bit of credibility. If she isn’t cleared, then Labour lose far more.

Given position Conservatives are in that’s a risk worth taking. That’s surely the reason the Conservatives pressed the issue, it isn’t a random, motiveless, “dig into the past”.
 
In addition I don’t actually agree with you that developments to date on this affair have actually on balance damaged Conservatives more than Labour. Angela Rayner claimed right at outset that she had proof (a legal opinion) that she was innocent but declined to produce any details. Similarly she declined to share tax returns. She refused to be open.
 
The next time a Tory may or may not have played fast and loose with the tax rules, they can now just say “I’ve got proof I’m clear, I’m not going to say any more”.  Neither Angela or Sir Keir can now attack that position with any moral authority, and the police won’t always go on to investigate.

Forgetting whether that’s good or bad for Labour, it feels like a loss for reputation of politics with the public.

[lostandfound]

Her tax return is likely to be irrelevant, she has said she did not pay tax so the transaction would probably not be on the return. It would add nothing to the debate.

It is relevant to the issue for the reason I stated in my first post on the subject; a Telegraph columnist quoted a source he said was well informed as to the motive behind the complaint against Rayner; the belief that Rayner's tax returns will show she is not the ordinary working class woman she claims to be, as her financial affairs are not typical of such a person.

As I said above, that rings true to me; however she started out she is a long way from her origins, and the Tory complainant believes that her tax returns will demonstrate that. Her refusing to publish them adds fuel to the fire.

As in answer to your multiple posts I can only repeat what I said in the first case, I do not think this is a useful discussion, so unless there is anything new to say, I won't post anymore on the subject.

[RedKettle]

It is relevant to the issue for the reason I stated in my first post on the subject; a Telegraph columnist quoted a source he said was well informed as to the motive behind the complaint against Rayner; the belief that Rayner's tax returns will show she is not the ordinary working class woman she claims to be, as her financial affairs are not typical of such a person.

As I said above, that rings true to me; however she started out she is a long way from her origins, and the Tory complainant believes that her tax returns will demonstrate that. Her refusing to publish them adds fuel to the fire.

As in answer to your multiple posts I can only repeat what I said in the first case, I do not think this is a useful discussion, so unless there is anything new to say, I won't post anymore on the subject.

OMG she could be a working class woman who has made a few quid. Yes that would be offensive to the tories with their inherited wealth.

[lostandfound]

OMG she could be a working class woman who has made a few quid. Yes that would be offensive to the tories with their inherited wealth.

It's not aimed at the Tories. 

[petermisc]

Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has said he will stand down as an MP at the next election.  Yet another rat deserting the sinking ship.

[JontyR]

Former chancellor Nadhim Zahawi has said he will stand down as an MP at the next election.  Yet another rat deserting the sinking ship.

I'd love to know the rationale behind some of these Tory retirements (and non-retirements from Labour). Is the thought of being a good constituency MP just too dire to contemplate if you are in opposition?

I'm sure there are all sorts but how many are genuinely motivated by the wielding of power in its own right rather than using a position of influence to serve those who you are their to represent?

[Followyourdick]

If Raynor has broken the law she should be subject to the consequences, the client journalists are going after her as a distraction from the most corrupt bunch of politicians in power we have ever had.  If she has done wrong it’s probably to the tune of a couple of grand, FFS the number of bent tories who have avoided tax to the tune of millions is unreal, including Zahawi just for starters.

[lostandfound]

What to do when you're senile?

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The UK has fuck all influence on the production of oil worldwide.

ESG investors' pressure will just result in the relocation of companies like Shell to the US, achieving only the UK being poorer and less influential.

[ESG being an acronym for Environmental, Social and Governance].

EVangelists are keen for cheap China made EVs, massively subsidised by the Chinese govt and manfuctured using dirty coal and Russian oil to be dumped on Western markets destroying countless well paid jobs and Western economies.

[george r]

Just watching the news about the blood scandal that has dragged on for years, through many governments they should all hang their heads in shame

[Blackpool Rock]

Just watching the news about the blood scandal that has dragged on for years, through many governments they should all hang their heads in shame

Yeah another National disgrace 

Stuff like this and other big scandals such as the Horizon Post office system and Hillsborough etc is the reason why most people simply don't trust any of our Govts or any authority in this country anymore.
Cover things up; lie; suppress information; kick the can down the road and hope those annoying little people go away 

[WARSZAWA16]

Just watching the news about the blood scandal that has dragged on for years, through many governments they should all hang their heads in shame

Sadly very close to home for me this. One of my friends was a hemophiliac, was given "infected" blood that came from the U.S.A. and sadly died as a consequence. His father just accepted it as "one of those things", but I always knew there was more to it and sadly this is now proving to be the case. 

We were all told "unofficially" at the time that in New York people were paid $15 to give blood. It turned out that the blood, however, was rarely, if ever, "checked". God only knows how many people suffered the same fate as my friend as a consequence... 

[PepeMAGA]

Yeah another National disgrace 

Stuff like this and other big scandals such as the Horizon Post office system and Hillsborough etc is the reason why most people simply don't trust any of our Govts or any authority in this country anymore.
Cover things up; lie; suppress information; kick the can down the road and hope those annoying little people go away 

In all of those cases, wouldn't honesty have been the best policy? I don't just mean morally, but I think generally the lies cause more problems than being honest early on.

[lostandfound]

In all of those cases, wouldn't honesty have been the best policy? I don't just mean morally, but I think generally the lies cause more problems than being honest early on.

I would suggest that is true for those who suffer as a result, but for those who are responsible?

Many such cases will not have come to light and those responsible may have got off scot free, and even in these cases justice is being sought long after the fact, so once again, many of those who bear reponsibility may not be brought to account.

[Blackpool Rock]

I would suggest that is true for those who suffer as a result, but for those who are responsible?

Many such cases will not have come to light and those responsible may have got off scot free, and even in these cases justice is being sought long after the fact, so once again, many of those who bear reponsibility may not be brought to account.

Clearly for those responsible they would rather it never came to light and just faded away but I think he means once questions start being asked and the storm really starts to grow momentum then surely it's time to say "Clearly something is amiss here and we'll have a proper look at it" 

Instead they just kick it into the long grass and create a load of smoke and mirrors but you then get a messy tangled web of lies; deception and half truths which then just lead to more lies; deception and half truths to cover up the previous ones 

I always respected authority when I was growing up however i'm pretty cynical these days about Govt and any large authority, add to that most Big business too

[lostandfound]

Clearly for those responsible they would rather it never came to light and just faded away but I think he means once questions start being asked and the storm really starts to grow momentum then surely it's time to say "Clearly something is amiss here and we'll have a proper look at it" 

Instead they just kick it into the long grass and create a load of smoke and mirrors but you then get a messy tangled web of lies; deception and half truths which then just lead to more lies; deception and half truths to cover up the previous ones 

I always respected authority when I was growing up however i'm pretty cynical these days about Govt and any large authority, add to that most Big business too

Hmm, I suspect there are countless instances of questions being asked but delay, obfuscation, denial and obstruction have resulted in those asking questions giving up, and just delaying investigation may result in evidence being lost and forgotten lessening the risk to those responsible. And public inquiries are extremely expensive which is another barrier to cross.

[PepeMAGA]

Hmm, I suspect there are countless instances of questions being asked but delay, obfuscation, denial and obstruction have resulted in those asking questions giving up, and just delaying investigation may result in evidence being lost and forgotten lessening the risk to those responsible. And public inquiries are extremely expensive which is another barrier to cross.

I think that's the thing the delay in most cases. It gets to the point where a lot of the people involved are either has to pin down or are dead, or those that suffered are dead.
 Take Hillsborough, the police made mistakes, but that wasn't the whole story. If they'd owned up and apologized early on or even just not blamed the fans, the outcome I don't think would have been that bad for them.
Again with the recently mentioned Falklands incident, accidents happen, being honest would the consequences have been that bad for the decision makers?

[Followyourdick]

Paula Vennels giving evidence today at the enquiry into the PO/Horizon shitshow, just like all the other PO bosses who have already appeared, she didn’t see it, can’t recall and it wasn’t her fault.
FFS.

[Blackpool Rock]

Paula Vennels giving evidence today at the enquiry into the PO/Horizon shitshow, just like all the other PO bosses who have already appeared, she didn’t see it, can’t recall and it wasn’t her fault.
FFS.

Yeah I was thinking earlier all these top CEO's and MD's etc etc for this and other enquiries are all apparently at the top of their game hence obtaining these top jobs with the mega pay packets and hopping from one to another as they all do such great jobs

Yet when it comes to the crunch none of them can remember fuck all  I bet they'd remember if a subordinate ever did anything wrong 

[mh]

Oh, no, here we go. It could be fireworks. 4th July?

[mh]

Paula Vennels giving evidence today at the enquiry into the PO/Horizon shitshow, just like all the other PO bosses who have already appeared, she didn’t see it, can’t recall and it wasn’t her fault.
FFS.

Sunak may be about to give Paula Vennels the gift of a lifetime. Pushing her off the front pages and airwaves.

[myothernameis]

Current TV schedule has been cancelled so that the bbc can cover ongoing news from Downing Street

Looks very like a summer general election on 4 July.  News channels all out side of number 10 waiting for Rishi Sunak to make an announcement

[JontyR]

I wonder if there are 50 or so MPs getting in their letters of no confidence against Sunak before 5pm!!

[JontyR]

They have obviosuly thought of a way that Sunak won't look like a person of shorter stature in the TV debates.

The weather is horrendous out there...could be a Wally with the Brolly moment.

[myothernameis]

Supposedly a announcement is due

Now the question, is King Charles currently in Bucking Palace, as Rishi goes to speak to him, to dissolve Parliament

[myothernameis]

The Lector has now been placed out side