The Politics Thread

[mills_and_bhuna]

In electoral terms his agenda was never going to fly really.
And again another who goes weak at the knees for Putin.
So, yes.

Another load of tripe as usual.
The main reasons it wouldn't fly would be the capitulation of Central Office to saboteurs and Blairites more interested in displaying their fealty to Israel and the US.
I see he's standing as an independent.
Here's hoping the Likud Party candidate Starmer passes is thoroughly spanked.
Hopefully it will be Paul Mason

[akauya]

Corbyn is extreme?
Seriously?

I always found it funny when some people claim Corbyn is extreme left (when he's barely a socialist.)

Not sure if this is because they lack political literacy or just repeat what the prevailing media says at the time. I've often wondered if political literacy and economics should be taught as part of the national curriculum at schools along with citizenship. It would certainly lead to young people becoming more informed and engaged adults, equipped with critical thinking skills, and a better understanding of political and economic systems. Something that the majority of the "ordinary" people (I'm including myself here) lack nowadays. In this age of social media and misinformation critical thinking skills are sorely needed.

Of course this would only work if we had a non-biased education system and the teachers themselves were non-biased.

As ever... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Does anybody know if  political literacy, financial literacy/economics is taught at schools in any other country?

[mills_and_bhuna]

I always found it funny when some people claim Corbyn is extreme left (when he's barely a socialist.)

Not sure if this is because they lack political literacy or just repeat what the prevailing media says at the time. I've often wondered if political literacy and economics should be taught as part of the national curriculum at schools along with citizenship. It would certainly lead to young people becoming more informed and engaged adults, equipped with critical thinking skills, and a better understanding of political and economic systems. Something that the majority of the "ordinary" people (I'm including myself here) lack nowadays. In this age of social media and misinformation critical thinking skills are sorely needed.

Of course this would only work if we had a non-biased education system and the teachers themselves were non-biased.

As ever... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Does anybody know if  political literacy, financial literacy/economics is taught at schools in any other country?

My own view is that the Establishment doesn't want political literacy among the masses.
They want subservience. They rebrand that as stability.
If you teach people to do their own research they find out stuff that is hidden from the normal history and you end up with what is happening just now with Pro-Palestine encampments at elite centres of learning.
Did you see the recent interview with Hillary Clinton blundering her way through an interview where she smears Columbia, Harvard and UCLA students as 'uninformed'?
The sad thing is people buy her shite because they've bathed in Zionist, Western chauvinist propaganda since kindergarten.
It's very difficult for a boomer to do a handbrake turn.

P. S. Good post. I appreciate your willingness to engage in unorthodox viewpoints.

[petermisc]

I'd actually favour a proportional election system on principle, not least as the current system forces the two main parties to adopt dull positions then occasionally veer off into extremes every so often (Corbyn, Truss).

I wouldn't have said Corbyn was extreme, just that his political views seemed to be based on 1920's thinking.

[timsussex]

Gove and Leadson not standing

[mills_and_bhuna]

I wouldn't have said Corbyn was extreme, just that his political views seemed to be based on 1920's thinking.

And what is 1920s thinking ?
Britain still had an empire then.
And most people probably saw no issue with that.
So I'm struggling to understand the point you're making.
And most of Parliament are royalists.
So 1290s thinking

[jackdaw]

I wouldn't have said Corbyn was extreme, just that his political views seemed to be based on 1920's thinking.

My main worry about him was the lack of clear policies that would have been put in place to actually bring about things like a fairer distribution of wealth, a better NHS, a more effective Welfare system.

He just “pointed” out failings of present system and said “we must do better”, but never really spelt out the detail of what was needed to do that in any convincing way.

I have the same concern about present Labour Party under Sir Keir’s apparently very different leadership. I’ll vote Labour with the hope they turn out to be slightly less crap than the Tories. But I won’t be doing it enthusiastically.

[Blackpool Rock]

My main worry about him was the lack of clear policies that would have been put in place to actually bring about things like a fairer distribution of wealth, a better NHS, a more effective Welfare system.

He just “pointed” out failings of present system and said “we must do better”, but never really spelt out the detail of what was needed to do that in any convincing way.

I have the same concern about present Labour Party under Sir Keir’s apparently very different leadership. I’ll vote Labour with the hope they turn out to be slightly less crap than the Tories. But I won’t be doing it enthusiastically.

Corbyn's policies and outlook looked to still be rooted in the 1970's however the world has moved on and people simply didn't want it as they still remember the turmoil and upheaval of strikes etc
The guy was always against being in Europe so was actually the only leader with a true belief in Brexit but even then he couldn't come out and say "Great we are out" but instead fudged it and said we would have another vote on it

Labour / Starmer have been vague on policy details as they knew if they announced anything then the Tories were likely to jump on board and steal the idea then try and claim it was theirs, it did happen with the Non Dom tax arrangements

What we now need to see are proper details on policies to differentiate between the parties however the IFS has warned of a dark cloud hanging over public finances with tax rises and / or cuts to services required, the other option is to simply borrow more and then pay more interest -

There's a major problem here as no party is going to say they intend to increase tax or cut services as it's a vote loser, Labour have another issue in that their image appears to be forever tarnished from 40+ years ago that they can't be trusted with the economy and this is despite the country seeing the best 10 years of economic stability and sustained growth after they got elected back in 97, go figure 

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[lostandfound]

IMO Corbyn lacked credibility because he was inventing social policies almost on the hoof / unfunded and noone believed he would be able to implement them.

Starmer's task between now and 4th July is to say as little as possible, because whenever he opens his mouth he risks upsetting somebody. Just needs to ride the poll lead into Downing Street.

IMO that's why Sunak is challenging Starmer to TV debates - he thinks he will have the opportunity to put Starmer on the spot and make him start talking.

[David1970]

If Corbyn and MacDonald had got hold of the economy we would be the same as Venezuela, fucked.
I never believed the stories put up by the right wing press about him, he was never anti-Jewish but was anti-Zionist. The fact he fuck Abbot so what we all make mistakes.
He seemed an honest nice man, unlike Boris.

[mills_and_bhuna]

If Corbyn and MacDonald had got hold of the economy we would be the same as Venezuela, fucked.
I never believed the stories put up by the right wing press about him, he was never anti-Jewish but was anti-Zionist. The fact he fuck Abbot so what we all make mistakes.
He seemed an honest nice man, unlike Boris.

Venezuela is not fucked because of Socialist policies.
They are suffering the effects of US sanctions.
Sanctions designed to make the ordinary people suffer so that they overthrow the government and the US can install a puppet regime.
That puppet regime will do what it wants to it's population and the inevitable opposition to it's subservience to US Corporate interests.
And the US will turn a blind eye to human rights abuses.
Just the US spreading democracy as usual.
Bolivia 1971
Chile 1973
Brazil 1964
Argentina 1976
I could go on.... And on

[Squire Haggard]

Sir Knee desperate to exploit the naivety of young people. He would want the age lowered further if he could get away with it.

''Sixteen- and 17-year-olds could be given the right to vote if Labour wins the general election, Keir Starmer has confirmed.

“If you can work, if you can pay tax, if you can serve in your armed forces, then you ought to be able to vote,” the Labour leader said while campaigning at a football ground in the West Midlands.''

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[Doc Holliday]

I could go on.... And on

Surely not ... that would be most unlike you 

[mills_and_bhuna]

Surely not ... that would be most unlike you 

Haha.
I was wondering who would take the bait.
I had my money on the Kettle

[mills_and_bhuna]

Sir Knee desperate to exploit the naivety of young people. He would want the age lowered further if he could get away with it.

''Sixteen- and 17-year-olds could be given the right to vote if Labour wins the general election, Keir Starmer has confirmed.

“If you can work, if you can pay tax, if you can serve in your armed forces, then you ought to be able to vote,” the Labour leader said while campaigning at a football ground in the West Midlands.''

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I agree with him on this one.
I've met very well informed and intelligent 16 year olds.
And I've met utterly clueless 50 year olds, never mind 18 year olds

[timsussex]

two headlines from BBC

Labour want to give vote to 16 & 17 year olds

MPs want smartphones banned for under 16s


so one day you aren't mature enough to be trusted with a phone and the next you can vote !

[Squire Haggard]

two headlines from BBC

Labour want to give vote to 16 & 17 year olds

MPs want smartphones banned for under 16s


so one day you aren't mature enough to be trusted with a phone and the next you can vote !

Beyond parody.

Labour knows that it will benefit them, of course.

[JontyR]

Beyond parody.

Labour knows that it will benefit them, of course.

Except the second article is about cross party MPs group rather than Labour.

Reading the article it details how Labour are "open-minded" about a ban of social media on phones following the case of Brianna Ghey.

As for 16 year olds having the vote, I think they can be swayed the same way as anyone else. If they can get shot in the service of their country they should be able to vote. (You can apply to join the army when you are still 15 although you can't join until 16)

[Squire Haggard]

Except the second article is about cross party MPs group rather than Labour.

Reading the article it details how Labour are "open-minded" about a ban of social media on phones following the case of Brianna Ghey.

As for 16 year olds having the vote, I think they can be swayed the same way as anyone else. If they can get shot in the service of their country they should be able to vote. (You can apply to join the army when you are still 15 although you can't join until 16)

I know that the phones article is cross party, and the other one certainly isnt.

Its 18 before they are deployed on the frontline. I remember hearing that some lied about their age to join up for WW1, thinking that ''it would be over by Christmas.''

''Although members of the armed forces cannot legally be deployed on the frontline until they turn
18........... ''

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[timsussex]

bringing back mandaTORY National Service


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[hullad]

bringing back mandaTORY National Service


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Typical Tory crap !

We got rid of national service because its wasn't working for the military and would work even less 60 years further on.

[PepeMAGA]

bringing back mandaTORY National Service


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Stupid idea, to the point where I think they want to lose.
I mean even if it's objectively the best thing for the country, how is this going to win any votes?

[timsussex]

Perhaps someone at Central Office has been reading Robert Heinlein.

For those that didnt read the origional Starship Troopers novel it describes a society where National Service is truly  voluntary and at any time (even just before "going over the top" you can un-volunteer.
But to become a full citizen you must complete your voluntary Service and certain jobs are reserved for full citizens  inc police, Teachers, council posts etc ...... oh and only full citizens can vote !

[timsussex]

Stupid idea, to the point where I think they want to lose.
I mean even if it's objectively the best thing for the country, how is this going to win any votes?

well it isnt going to win votes among the 18-21 year olds !  but I don't think thats the target audience; it'll go down well in the Tory heartland amongst the 50+ age group

[JontyR]

well it isnt going to win votes among the 18-21 year olds !  but I don't think thats the target audience; it'll go down well in the Tory heartland amongst the 50+ age group

Not if they have grandkids.

Mind you they didn't mind about fucking their future when voting for Brexit.

The policy, if it has a point, is to provide a load of free labour for those public services that provide the alternative to being enlisted.

[timsussex]

Not if they have grandkids.

Mind you they didn't mind about fucking their future when voting for Brexit.

The policy, if it has a point, is to provide a load of free labour for those public services that provide the alternative to being enlisted.

You really think the old fogies don't think their grandkids could do with a taste of national service ?

The Military hated National Service and given any sort of choice anyone with an IQ of over 80 would avoid  military service and its only weekends so I can see a lot of places being in care homes.

Solves another problem and reinforcing its appeal to the older population

[JontyR]

You really think the old fogies don't think their grandkids could do with a taste of national service ?

The Military hated National Service and given any sort of choice anyone with an IQ of over 80 would avoid  military service and its only weekends so I can see a lot of places being in care homes.

Solves another problem and reinforcing its appeal to the older population

I think it depends on the kids concerned and the families. But I don't think it will get anything like universal appeal across the piece.

As for care homes, there are very few now which are in hands of councils. It would be giving money to private enterprise. Not sure exactly how that would work.

But I think you are right in terms of the impacts and the feelings from within the forces. I suspect it will be felt within public services too. I don't think a great deal of thought has gone into it.

[timsussex]

on the contrary Onward (the right wing think tank where the idea originated)  even commissioned a poll of 16-21 years olds and 3/4 were in favour !
what exactly did they ask ?
did they hold the poll in Eton ?

Apparently 60,000 skoolkids ( ) are in CCF - Combined Cadet Force and they arent all in Private schools !

Actually it could be a vote winner - Offer it to everyone but make it voluntary with a 1p off income tax for life if you complete it 

[timsussex]

Quote of the day/week/Year via Sunday Times

 Lord Vaizey, a close friend of Michael Gove, said it was “inevitable” the departing cabinet minister would end up on Strictly Come Dancing.

[Blackpool Rock]

bringing back mandaTORY National Service


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It's a CONservative back to basics style policy, good luck with the bit below highlighted

“I have a clear plan to address this and secure our future. I will bring in a new model of National Service to create a shared sense of purpose among our young people and a renewed sense of pride in our country."

[Blackpool Rock]

Not if they have grandkids.

Mind you they didn't mind about fucking their future when voting for Brexit.

The policy, if it has a point, is to provide a load of free labour for those public services that provide the alternative to being enlisted.

True

[David1970]

bringing back mandaTORY National Service


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As someone who spent 18 years in the armed forces, I can assure you it’s the last thing the armed forces want.
Total gimmick from someone who has nothing to lose because he is going to lose the election.
I had respect for Rishi Sunak, buts it’s gone with this gimmick.

[Thephoenix]

Haha.
I was wondering who would take the bait.
I had my money on the Kettle

Good that you're finally admitting to trolling. 

[mills_and_bhuna]

Good that you're finally admitting to trolling. 

I think you're overstating what I was getting at .
The body of my post was the point.
The last six words were a little add on that I noticed would trigger a few Yankophiles.

[mills_and_bhuna]

I had respect for Rishi Sunak, buts it’s gone with this gimmick.

The only good point about him was that he wasn't Boris Johnson or Liz Truss.
After his deranged reaction to Galloway's by-election and his subsequent defence of Israeli genocide even that seems hollow

[Doc Holliday]

The last six words were a little add on that I noticed would trigger a few Yankophiles.

Whoa hold on, it was me who took the bait knowing full well I was taking it, which is why I included the emoji. I am not a Yankophile. It was an attempt  to lighten the mood. It won't happen again.

[badsin]

How about a Gurkha style force for immigrant's, do 10+ year's and you get citizenship?

[RedKettle]

As someone who spent 18 years in the armed forces, I can assure you it’s the last thing the armed forces want.
Total gimmick from someone who has nothing to lose because he is going to lose the election.

Despite what I am about to post I do agree with you in general about national service.

However Sweden have made it work where they have an application process and it is genuinely competative between youngsters that want to do it.  I think in theory it is mandantory as every 18 year has to apply but those that do not want to do just answer the questions in a way that disqualifies them.  The numbers doing it are at a level that the military can work with and they have found it very helpful.  However I doubt very much that we would actually bother to design a scheme that works!!

[PepeMAGA]

on the contrary Onward (the right wing think tank where the idea originated)  even commissioned a poll of 16-21 years olds and 3/4 were in favour !
what exactly did they ask ?
did they hold the poll in Eton ?

Apparently 60,000 skoolkids ( ) are in CCF - Combined Cadet Force and they arent all in Private schools !

Actually it could be a vote winner - Offer it to everyone but make it voluntary with a 1p off income tax for life if you complete it

Maybe if it offsets the cost of university, so you start it a year late, but pay a lot less

[RedKettle]

on the contrary Onward (the right wing think tank where the idea originated)  even commissioned a poll of 16-21 years olds and 3/4 were in favour !
what exactly did they ask ?
did they hold the poll in Eton ?

Apparently 60,000 skoolkids ( ) are in CCF - Combined Cadet Force and they arent all in Private schools !

Actually it could be a vote winner - Offer it to everyone but make it voluntary with a 1p off income tax for life if you complete it

Onward were not suggesting it was mandatory!

[JontyR]

Someone didn't get the memo

Just happens that person happened to be the Parliamentary under secretary at the Ministry of Defence.

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[radioman33]

National service will teach them discipline and generally be a good thing.

[timsussex]

National service will teach them discipline and generally be a good thing.

a year in the army will turn young thugs into ....  fit young thugs with weapon training !

[chrishornx]

National service will teach them discipline and generally be a good thing.

agree

[jackdaw]

How about a Gurkha style force for immigrant's, do 10+ year's and you get citizenship?

Given that it’s inevitable that some people get into UK by suspect means, and that once in UK it near impossible to tell whether an asylum claim is valid or not some path to earning citizenship is surely an attractive idea.

[David1970]

National service will teach them discipline and generally be a good thing.

Tell me did you serve in the arm forces?

[sparkus]

It's well understood there's a mental health crisis amongst many young men now.

I'm not sure handing them SA80s is the answer.

[David1970]

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[8MillionDollarMan]

I always found it funny when some people claim Corbyn is extreme left (when he's barely a socialist.)

I suppose if don't consider communism far left tor are just plain stupid then he isn't 
Anyone of sound mind would have to agree he's extreme though if only for his hatred of Jews.

[David1970]

I suppose if don't consider communism far left tor are just plain stupid then he isn't 
Anyone of sound mind would have to agree he's extreme though if only for his hatred of Jews.

I would never want him as Prime Minister but, he does not hate Jews, is Zionist he dislikes, I take it you understand the difference?