Author Topic: The Politics Thread  (Read 766337 times)

Offline Marmalade

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It goes way beyond that. china hack everything. 20 years ago the world networking leader was Nortel Networks. Huawei hacked all their IP,  destroyed the company and took their place. Then you have hacks on most the big US military contractors and likely tons of stuff nobody knows or have discovered yet.

Interesting to know.

But are we cutting off our nose to spite our face? I am incredibly suspicious of Chinese tech and hacking. But surely we should get better at preventing it without losing market edge. I am so pleased they stopped china running 5G. But Western, especially American, security is basically pretty crap.

Online timsussex

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Interesting to know.

But are we cutting off our nose to spite our face? I am incredibly suspicious of Chinese tech and hacking. But surely we should get better at preventing it without losing market edge. I am so pleased they stopped china running 5G. But Western, especially American, security is basically pretty crap.

US firms chasing cheap labour (or should that be labor) set up a lot of high end manufacturing in China then to their surprise China started making their own competing chips, computers and phones

Offline Marmalade

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US firms chasing cheap labour (or should that be labor) set up a lot of high end manufacturing in China then to their surprise China started making their own competing chips, computers and phones

Quite right. Buying stuff that morally is almost "off the back of a lorry" might be ok occasionally, and might even give some leverage over the dodgy lorry owner. But to rely on it as your food supply -- if you'll excuse the continued metaphor -- is just an accident waiting to happen (as the racing driver said to the Fiat owner.)

Offline Jacksonwood

I read this in the Sunday times thought it may interest you  👍

‘Brothel capital of Europe’ considers ban on buying sex
German opposition party wants to adopt Nordic approach to prostitution and says legalisation of sex industry has failed
November 21 2023, The Times
Calls are growing in Germany for an outright ban on prostitution amid warnings that the country has become “the brothel of Europe”, attracting sex tourists from around the world.
The conservative opposition CDU party said that the legalisation of the sex industry in 2002 under a previous centre-left government had failed because it was largely ignored in practice. It gave prostitutes employment rights, access to welfare benefits and the right to sue non-paying clients.
The country now has an estimated 250,000 sex workers, the overwhelming majority of whom are from abroad and without papers, and at the mercy of human traffickers and pimps, according to Dorothee Bär, the deputy leader of the parliamentary group for Germany’s two main Christian Democratic parties, the CDU and the CSU.
“There can be no real equality as long as we accept that hundreds of thousands of women are treated like slaves. It is an offence against human dignity that we urgently need to end,” Bär told Bild newspaper.
Women were trapped in forced prostitution with their bodies bought and sold like cheap goods, Bär said. She added: “Germany has become the brothel of Europe. The women are mistreated in the worst possible way by their clients and pimps.”
The CDU wants Germany to adopt the so-called Nordic model, first introduced by Sweden in 1999, under which customers are liable to prosecution for buying sex, but prostitutes aren’t penalised. It was emulated by Norway a decade later and other countries including France and Israel have introduced similar rules.
Under the proposed legislation, brothels would have to be shut and the renting of apartments to prostitutes would be outlawed.
The measures would not eradicate prostitution but would reduce it, Bär said, adding that pimps and organised criminals had been the main beneficiaries of the 2002 legalisation.
Such a law, which would turn out the lights in one of the world’s most famous sex districts, Hamburg’s Reeperbahn, is also gaining support from members of the ruling Social Democrats. Leni Breymaier, a Social Democrat MP, called the proposal a “giant step in the right direction”.
Last week Olaf Scholz, the chancellor, said he had always been “morally outraged” at men purchasing sex. However, Lisa Paus, the families minister, has said that the government has no plans to change the law.
Sex workers’ organisations are also opposed to changes, arguing that there was no evidence that the Nordic model had lessened prostitution or helped women.
The Professional Association for Erotic and Sexual Services, which represents brothels and independent prostitutes, said punishing clients would only make the work more dangerous.
It said: “Since Sweden was the first country in the world to introduce a sex purchase ban 25 years ago, there have been no studies to suggest that the Nordic model has been a success.
“It is always remarkable to see the means by which the opponents of procuring sex try to realise their moral ideas — at the expense of the rights of sex workers, customers and brothel operators and ultimately at the expense of a tolerant, free and rights-based society.”
 

Offline lostandfound

But according to Which? a rubbish toaster  :unknown:

Which? is a bastion of the Consumer Society.  :hi:

I am personally happy to be a Consumer and last year when I bought a new toaster I looked for one that made excellent toast and was not expensive, and didn't give repairability any thought. My previous toaster lasted 7 years and when it stopped working I put it in for recycling, as I will do with this one when it breaks.

I estimate I spend around £5 a year on toasting machinery, and I'm pleased that Capitalism and our Consumer Society gives me the choice to do this.

Offline daviemac

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What has this got to do with UK escorts and massages?  :unknown:  Looks more like German politics to me even then it's only 'calls for' nothing done yet.

Online lewisjones23

better suited to the ' Punting Abroad ' section

Offline jamiekinkxxx

What has this got to do with UK escorts and massages?  :unknown:  Looks more like German politics to me even then it's only 'calls for' nothing done yet.

Still quite interesting TBH, but I agree maybe not best location to 'post' and as lewisjones23 says maybe the abroad section is a more appropriate location?

Offline daviemac

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Still quite interesting TBH, but I agree maybe not best location to 'post' and as lewisjones23 says maybe the abroad section is a more appropriate location?
What's interesting about - "German opposition party wants to adopt Nordic approach to prostitution"? looks more political to me.  :unknown:

Offline Marmalade

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Germany currently has a low incidence of rape:
9.3 per 100,000 people.

Norway is more than double: 19.2

Sweden, which also criminalised buying of sex, has a whopping 63.5

You have to wonder where these abolitionist get their fucking brains.  :dash: :dash:

Offline JontyR

Germany currently has a low incidence of rape:
9.3 per 100,000 people.

Norway is more than double: 19.2

Sweden, which also criminalised buying of sex, has a whopping 63.5

You have to wonder where these abolitionist get their fucking brains.  :dash: :dash:

For real? I don't know about you, but my access to sex (paid or otherwise) doesn't alter my attitude towards rape.

Offline chrishornx

hopefully we all have a rather abhorrent view on rape but marmalade makes a good point - not sure what you are  disputing

Offline JontyR

hopefully we all have a rather abhorrent view on rape but marmalade makes a good point - not sure what you are  disputing
That there is causality between the figures.

I don't know where the figures are from, what the figures include and how they are calculated.

If a country has better investigative methods which encourage reporting then the figures will be higher. Do you for instance believe that there was not a single rape in Oman or Bahrain last year?

Here is a site quoting stats and has some narrative...I haven't scrutinised them particularly but for reference External Link/Members Only

Offline mh

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Germany currently has a low incidence of rape:
9.3 per 100,000 people.

Norway is more than double: 19.2

Sweden, which also criminalised buying of sex, has a whopping 63.5

When I last saw this chasm in rates analysed it was shown to be down to how each country defined the crime as headlined. Sweden included sexual assault of almost any kind and even exposure whereas many other countries defined rape very specifically and had other categories of sexual assault.

Offline Marmalade

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Unlike the previous poster I have indeed scrutinised my sources.

Figures quoted are from a professional source
External Link/Members Only
which qualifies the results as well as the excuses trotted out to make Sweden look good. Which is correct procedure.

Academic studies of the difference form a more ( in my view) believable explanation based on data, for what the data is worth.
External Link/Members Only

To me it seems common sense that there is a small demographic of sad people who are somehow predisposed to rape; and that if they are not only unable to find a willing partner through normal social routes but  also prevented from paying for a service, then that  tendency is more likely to erupt in criminal force than if they had not been so prevented. 

Quote
”Our research finds that liberalizing prostitution leads to a significant decrease in rape rates whereas prohibiting it does the opposite.”
(JLE)

Offline JontyR

Unlike the previous poster I have indeed scrutinised my sources.

Figures quoted are from a professional source
External Link/Members Only
which qualifies the results as well as the excuses trotted out to make Sweden look good. Which is correct procedure.

Academic studies of the difference form a more ( in my view) believable explanation based on data, for what the data is worth.
External Link/Members Only

To me it seems common sense that there is a small demographic of sad people who are somehow predisposed to rape; and that if they are not only unable to find a willing partner through normal social routes but  also prevented from paying for a service, then that  tendency is more likely to erupt in criminal force than if they had not been so prevented. 
 (JLE)

From your scrutinised source:

"Sweden's seemingly oversized rape rate is perhaps the best-known example of this scenario. During the years 2013-2017, Sweden averaged 64 reported rapes per 100,000 inhabitants—a rate that tied for the highest in Europe. However, when the data was examined, it became clear that Sweden's high numbers were fueled in large part by Sweden's broader definition of rape and more inclusive reporting rules compared to other European countries. When the data was recalculated using Germany's narrower guidelines, for example, Sweden's average reported rapes per 100,000 people fell from 64 to 15, a decrease of 76.56%."

So this data doesn't really hold up to the point you make, and is 6 years out of date anyway.

I'm not argining in favour of the proposed German legislation or otherwise, but the argument quoted and the dismissal of those that propose it are unhelpful.

I'm not sure that looking at the cases of sexual assault or rape in this debate is even useful for those against tighter controls or abolition. Failure to acknowledge that there are individuals trafficked to work against their will is not going to assist any punters input into this debate. I want a clean trade with consensual acts on behalf of service providers and service seekers. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 02:33:25 pm by JontyR »

Offline JontyR

Anyway, if you were fucked enough in the head to consider raping someone would you really be put off by any risk of being criminalised for paying for it?

I don't know the penalties in the countries where it is enacted but I'm guessing they'd be more severe for rape than for paid for sex.

Offline Squire Haggard

Its interesting that the abolitionists always ignore the views of the sex workers themselves, in Germany and Scotland, and very likely elsewhere. Tin-pot dictators come to mind.

From the above article about Germany.......

''Sex workers’ organisations are also opposed to changes, arguing that there was no evidence that the Nordic model had lessened prostitution or helped women.
The Professional Association for Erotic and Sexual Services, which represents brothels and independent prostitutes, said punishing clients would only make the work more dangerous.''

From Scotland.........

''We believe that sex work is work, and that sex workers deserve protections such as labour rights. Along with Amnesty International, the World Health Organization and the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women (GAATW), we believe that the decriminalisation of sex work best upholds the safety and rights of people who sell sex. Like these organisations, we believe that the Swedish model has been a disastrous failure for sex workers.''

External Link/Members Only

The English one says the same as above......

External Link/Members Only
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 03:30:05 pm by Squire Haggard »

Offline wristjob


But are we cutting off our nose to spite our face? I am incredibly suspicious of Chinese tech and hacking. But surely we should get better at preventing it without losing market edge. I am so pleased they stopped china running 5G. But Western, especially American, security is basically pretty crap.

You can't really.

For switching gear it usually sends a signal encrypted end to end. As it's encrypted who knows what extra data is added to it that might be interpretable by a 3rd party.
For phones who knows what back doors could be baked in to phone OSes ?
For everything there are zero day bugs, bugs unknown to the vendor, that hackers get to discover.

External Link/Members Only)

Pegasus phone spyware was implicated in the death of Jamal Khashoggi.

We aren't talking about mom and pops either, places like the US DOD, defence contractors, banks and massive companies get hacked all the time.

Add to that you always have the human element.

Offline Marmalade

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You can't really.

For switching gear it usually sends a signal encrypted end to end. As it's encrypted who knows what extra data is added to it that might be interpretable by a 3rd party.
For phones who knows what back doors could be baked in to phone OSes ?
For everything there are zero day bugs, bugs unknown to the vendor, that hackers get to discover.

External Link/Members Only)

Pegasus phone spyware was implicated in the death of Jamal Khashoggi.

We aren't talking about mom and pops either, places like the US DOD, defence contractors, banks and massive companies get hacked all the time.

Add to that you always have the human element.

I suspected something like this. Is there are way forward at all, for instance if it was open software?

Offline Marmalade

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Its interesting that the abolitionists always ignore the views of the sex workers themselves, in Germany and Scotland, and very likely elsewhere. Tin-pot dictators come to mind.

From the above article about Germany.......

''Sex workers’ organisations are also opposed to changes, arguing that there was no evidence that the Nordic model had lessened prostitution or helped women.
The Professional Association for Erotic and Sexual Services, which represents brothels and independent prostitutes, said punishing clients would only make the work more dangerous.''

From Scotland.........

''We believe that sex work is work, and that sex workers deserve protections such as labour rights. Along with Amnesty International, the World Health Organization and the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women (GAATW), we believe that the decriminalisation of sex work best upholds the safety and rights of people who sell sex. Like these organisations, we believe that the Swedish model has been a disastrous failure for sex workers.''

External Link/Members Only

The English one says the same as above......

External Link/Members Only


When there’s people on here who can’t follow the logic of the academic studies it’s no surprise that the idiots in Holyrood can’t.

If they really were committed to independence they’d resign and try to poach some competent people from down south. Not that I’m particularly pro-independence but it’s embarrassing to see Holyrood run so badly. 

Offline Marmalade

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What's interesting about - "German opposition party wants to adopt Nordic approach to prostitution"? looks more political to me.  :unknown:

I think you’re right daviemac. The German government aren’t idiots — but it seems they’ve taken umbrage at their country being called the brothel of Europe. Like many things, it’s just better run than most countries. Hopefully they’ll find a middle road. Berlin, their prize city (and it is certainly quite an impressive showpiece) is pretty discreet. Other cities have very prominent city centre walkups which are usually less so. Since the clientele know how to find them their could for instance reduce some of the garishness so they are less prominent from the street, limit the number in city centres which would increase occupancy, or have discreet dedicated blocks away from the high street as one or two cities do.

Reverting good and efficient laws because of mob disapproval is rarely sensible and very un-German.

Offline Squire Haggard

Interesting video showing two Home Office chiefs being asked about 17,000 missing asylum seekers. They have no idea where they are.

This video starts at 5.10. Before that its about Gibraltar.

External Link/Members Only

Offline wristjob

I suspected something like this. Is there are way forward at all, for instance if it was open software?

If it's open source you give the hackers free access to see the source code and the potential to be helpful and create bug fixes with their own back door baked in.

Part of the problem is software is huge now, and it drags in libraries and modules form all over the place. A coder will know the functionality of the library but won't really know how well it's written or have any control over it. Solar Winds was a supply chain attack - they hacked and changed software the US/UK etc government used and used that exploit to get in.

Then you really do have how things are used, and people. A former CIA chief was hacked - I think they got his email, used that to contact the phone company and get his phone details and with that they could convince anybody else to change PWs etc. A bazillion people have been hacked because of password reuse - linkedIn loves being hacked and if you are on there and use the same password for anything else BOOM.

The ultimate problem is hackers can get insane money from hacks and there is almost no risk of being caught, and if they are there are probably less penalties for a £10m hack than holding up a post office with a knife and stealing £100, not that you even need to be in the same country as the victim.

Check your email: External Link/Members Only
Solar Winds: External Link/Members Only
John Brennan: External Link/Members Only

Offline Marmalade

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Why is the government in such a mess over immigration?

The news is that Sunak is ‘walking a tightrope’ to get emergency legislation through (which suggests the Braverman plan would not have got through?)

The case for reducing immigration is a good one, but so is the human rights angle of welcoming the small boats to save lives. The public (I’m guessing) “want something done” but are not so keen on any of the options. This equals “stop immigrants but let them in” — the general public are not always very rational.

Opponents of the government’s plan don’t have an alternative for stopping the boats. If they are in favour (with the general public) of stopping them in principle then they must be in a similar La-La land as the public who only want (non-existent) ‘nice’ ways of stopping them.

Starmer seems no better.
He “promised to ditch the use of barges, hotels and military sites to house asylum seekers. He also promised to recruit 1,000 caseworkers to end the asylum backlog.” (Guardian 14 Sept). I fail to see how that would end it but let’s suppose it does, what do you do with the ones granted asylum and, even harder, what do you do with the ones who aren’t? It’s easy to say you’ll “smash the gangs” when not in power. And if Starmer does try to make harder choices (a la tory right wing) there will be enough of his own party to blow them out of the water.


Cleverley good guy headlines
Reducing legal migration? Banning family members I agree with. But hiking the minimum salary? I thought legal migrants were filling much needed low-paid jobs.

Offline sir wanksalot

Why is the government in such a mess over immigration?

The news is that Sunak is ‘walking a tightrope’ to get emergency legislation through (which suggests the Braverman plan would not have got through?)

The case for reducing immigration is a good one, but so is the human rights angle of welcoming the small boats to save lives. The public (I’m guessing) “want something done” but are not so keen on any of the options. This equals “stop immigrants but let them in” — the general public are not always very rational.

Opponents of the government’s plan don’t have an alternative for stopping the boats. If they are in favour (with the general public) of stopping them in principle then they must be in a similar La-La land as the public who only want (non-existent) ‘nice’ ways of stopping them.

Starmer seems no better.
He “promised to ditch the use of barges, hotels and military sites to house asylum seekers. He also promised to recruit 1,000 caseworkers to end the asylum backlog.” (Guardian 14 Sept). I fail to see how that would end it but let’s suppose it does, what do you do with the ones granted asylum and, even harder, what do you do with the ones who aren’t? It’s easy to say you’ll “smash the gangs” when not in power. And if Starmer does try to make harder choices (a la tory right wing) there will be enough of his own party to blow them out of the water.


Cleverley good guy headlines
Reducing legal migration? Banning family members I agree with. But hiking the minimum salary? I thought legal migrants were filling much needed low-paid jobs.

Primarily because the topic has become a political football. Different parties and politicians trying to score points against one another whilst the problem itself remains.

If common sense prevailed along with some straight talking then we'd be in a far better position but it's not going to happen. I think you will find that the public have a much more of a hard lined stance than any politician.

What is wrong with the government saying that they welcome immigrants but only working immigrants who have a job? The boat loads can go back to France from where they came (or Rwanda).

Currently, the care sector is on it's knees as Brits are not attracted to the low end of that pay scale so we have Nigerian care workers being sponsored by government approved businesses and then they're allowed to bring their dependants over. All of this should be heavily monitored i.e. spouses must find work within a set number of months or risk the couple having their visa withdrawn.

This is a multi faceted problem as I strongly suspect our authorities are clueless as to what happens to people who stay beyond their visa duration and electronically tagging them will bring widespread condemnation.

We once tried to get a National ID card system off the ground but this quikcly got shot down in the cross fire of another political shootout.

Who would want to be a politician or worse, a political leader? You are constantly wrestling with what you know is the right thing to do to solve a given problem against the realisation that your actions will result in electoral losses.

Perhaps all we can hope for is a benevolent dictator is being born somewhere in our kingdom............maybe in a manger  :lol:




Offline mh

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Cleverley good guy headlines
Reducing legal migration? Banning family members I agree with. But hiking the minimum salary? I thought legal migrants were filling much needed low-paid jobs.

And don't forget the effect on British citizens who can now only have their legal overseas born husband or wife live with them in the UK if they are in the top 25% of earners in the country - with the majority of that 25% being in the South East of England.

So Sunak (foreign wife), Hunt (foreign wife), Jenrick (foreign wife), etc, etc are all alright Jack. :thumbsup:

The rest of us can fuck off, apparently.

Offline jackdaw

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And don't forget the effect on British citizens who can now only have their legal overseas born husband or wife live with them in the UK if they are in the top 25% of earners in the country - with the majority of that 25% being in the South East of England.

So Sunak (foreign wife), Hunt (foreign wife), Jenrick (foreign wife), etc, etc are all alright Jack. :thumbsup:

The rest of us can fuck off, apparently.

It doesn’t affect already existing marriages, of course.

Having said that…it’s obviously gutting for the people it will affect.

But given the current levels of migration isn’t it going to be essential to do some unpopular and unpleasant things?


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Offline Marmalade

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Regarding illegals and the possibility of ‘summary conviction’ to Rwanda, the costs look pretty extreme.

External Link/Members Only per person in Rwanda

Compared to:

External Link/Members Only U.K.

(Just exploring costs and logistics, not suggesting what should be done. Looking at what is ethical and practical are separate issues to be tackled, as no point in asking if something impossible is ethical.)

I imagine there are practical not just political or legal hurdles.

Offline Marmalade

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And a slightly different question…

How often do we hear of stories like this
External Link/Members Only
and wonder what it also does to the sense of security for women living in that area?

It seems to me that when crimes are reported, ethnicity (for example) is carefully omitted from reports. Sometimes there is a hint in the appearance of a clearly non-English name (which doesn’t prove much). If trying to search for numbers we are told that ‘far right attacks’ outnumber those committed by immigrants. There are occasional reports of obfuscation with police afraid to indicate nationality for fear of being called racist.

Offline Marmalade

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Jenrick resigns (decent coverage in the BBC’s news app) but it’s left to GB(expletive-deleted)News to publish a video of Braverman's latest speech.
External Link/Members Only

One thing though: she needs to have speech training as Thatcher did to lower the pitch of her voice. It still sounds too girly and irritating. (cf Thatcher sometime before after her rise — practically a transplant).

Offline PepeMAGA

Why is the government in such a mess over immigration?

Starmer seems no better.
He “promised to ditch the use of barges, hotels and military sites to house asylum seekers. He also promised to recruit 1,000 caseworkers to end the asylum backlog.” (Guardian 14 Sept). I fail to see how that would end it but let’s suppose it does, what do you do with the ones granted asylum and, even harder, what do you do with the ones who aren’t? It’s easy to say you’ll “smash the gangs” when not in power. And if Starmer does try to make harder choices (a la tory right wing) there will be enough of his own party to blow them out of the water.

A while ago Labour said they'd stop the boats by bringing them over from France.
They also said more recently they'd sign up to the EU scheme where migrants get shared out.
They're used to be a drive from labour to increase migration from poor countries to boost voters.
That will probably start to backfire with parties like Aspire on the rise.

Offline Marmalade

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A while ago Labour said they'd stop the boats by bringing them over from France.
They also said more recently they'd sign up to the EU scheme where migrants get shared out.
They're used to be a drive from labour to increase migration from poor countries to boost voters.
That will probably start to backfire with parties like Aspire on the rise.

I don’t feel Starmer, much less Labour, has a viable plan. He really just needs to count on the Tories imploding. Alternatively he would support Braverman — the most logical proposals I feel so far, but doesn’t dare say so. I’m aware of the voter thing. But staying in power and doing anything but delivering more of the same (ie not effectively achieving a reduction in migration but making crowd-pleasing attempts to do so) are two different things.

Offline wristjob

Regarding illegals and the possibility of ‘summary conviction’ to Rwanda, the costs look pretty extreme.

External Link/Members Only per person in Rwanda

Compared to:

External Link/Members Only U.K.

(Just exploring costs and logistics, not suggesting what should be done. Looking at what is ethical and practical are separate issues to be tackled, as no point in asking if something impossible is ethical.)

I imagine there are practical not just political or legal hurdles.

I imagine it would be a lot less to Rwanda if it wasn't constantly in court, the planes were full and it all started running smoothly.
It would be 0 if the people who didn't want to end up in Rwanda didn't come to the UK, and I imagine that is the real expectation.

Offline Marmalade

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It would be 0 if the people who didn't want to end up in Rwanda didn't come to the UK, and I imagine that is the real expectation.
Yes, that's my understanding of the logic of it. They do have to make it look reassuring enough respectful of human rights to satisfy the rebels but scary enough to dissuade all illegals. (It also has to be offputting enough to stop escaping Rwanda and coming back in a small boat for a second shot.  :dash:

Offline sir wanksalot

Yes, that's my understanding of the logic of it. They do have to make it look reassuring enough respectful of human rights to satisfy the rebels but scary enough to dissuade all illegals. (It also has to be offputting enough to stop escaping Rwanda and coming back in a small boat for a second shot.  :dash:

In that case, I propose Grimsby

Offline mh

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It doesn’t affect already existing marriages, of course.

Having said that…it’s obviously gutting for the people it will affect.

But given the current levels of migration isn’t it going to be essential to do some unpopular and unpleasant things?

It will make f*** all difference to the numbers. 50K couples may be affected in the first year. Some of those will be able to satisfy the financial regs so perhaps 30,000 British citizens unable to marry who they were going to marry imminently, just because Braverman and Sunak's 'points based system' allowed in three quarters of a million people including many economically inactive dependents and to compensate they have gone full wanker.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 09:41:50 am by mh »

Offline JontyR

Yes, that's my understanding of the logic of it. They do have to make it look reassuring enough respectful of human rights to satisfy the rebels but scary enough to dissuade all illegals. (It also has to be offputting enough to stop escaping Rwanda and coming back in a small boat for a second shot.  :dash:
What I fail to understand though is that the proponents of the Rwanda system are the ones that are presently going on about 4 & 5* hotels, mobile phones and free internet.  When the backlog of cases is massive, and growing, its quite an easy sell for those selling passage to the UK.

There needs to be caseworkers to work on this backlog. And I would propose that you get some of those in the hotels and other places to undertake the work and assist. Especially as the time taken for cases will probably be exacerbated in many cases - especially those that aren't valid - by issues relating to language and translation.

For practicalities sake, in terms of stopping the attractiveness of the boat crossings, there may be a need to draw a line and make a commitment to processing all new claims within 6 weeks and appeals in a further 2. I'd suggest our media swivel-eyed reporting of cushy lives for years is more of an incentive than any threat of Rwanda is a deterrent.

Offline sir wanksalot

What I fail to understand though is that the proponents of the Rwanda system are the ones that are presently going on about 4 & 5* hotels, mobile phones and free internet.  When the backlog of cases is massive, and growing, its quite an easy sell for those selling passage to the UK.

There needs to be caseworkers to work on this backlog. And I would propose that you get some of those in the hotels and other places to undertake the work and assist. Especially as the time taken for cases will probably be exacerbated in many cases - especially those that aren't valid - by issues relating to language and translation.

For practicalities sake, in terms of stopping the attractiveness of the boat crossings, there may be a need to draw a line and make a commitment to processing all new claims within 6 weeks and appeals in a further 2. I'd suggest our media swivel-eyed reporting of cushy lives for years is more of an incentive than any threat of Rwanda is a deterrent.

I am intrigued and, to be blunt, extremely suspicious about the lack of transparency in determining how a person's asylum claim is investigated and considered.

Offline PepeMAGA

What I fail to understand though is that the proponents of the Rwanda system are the ones that are presently going on about 4 & 5* hotels, mobile phones and free internet.  When the backlog of cases is massive, and growing, its quite an easy sell for those selling passage to the UK.

There needs to be caseworkers to work on this backlog. And I would propose that you get some of those in the hotels and other places to undertake the work and assist. Especially as the time taken for cases will probably be exacerbated in many cases - especially those that aren't valid - by issues relating to language and translation.

For practicalities sake, in terms of stopping the attractiveness of the boat crossings, there may be a need to draw a line and make a commitment to processing all new claims within 6 weeks and appeals in a further 2. I'd suggest our media swivel-eyed reporting of cushy lives for years is more of an incentive than any threat of Rwanda is a deterrent.
I think people feel migration is too high, so flipping them to legal status quickerthen giving them permanent accommodation isn't going to be popular either. And something like 80% of those claiming asylum are given it.

Offline Marmalade

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I am intrigued and, to be blunt, extremely suspicious about the lack of transparency in determining how a person's asylum claim is investigated and considered.

Especially when they talk of getting 1000 more interviewers to clear the backlog and smugglers have coached fugees on what to say.

I wonder if an AI/ChatGPT psych test might do better (even if human had the final decision).

Should criminals — and boat people are by definition now, criminals — should they even be eligible for asylum? They left a safe country, France, to take their chances here. I’m not sure about “flights to Rwanda” though — I gigantic transport ship almost sounds better. 15 days in a humane container ship with prison rations to the nearest port? But then you’d still have to get them inland to Rwanda so maybe planes are not a bad idea. :)

Offline Marmalade

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Watching Cleverley answer — or rather not answer — questions on his immigration bill. He’s been incredibly good and vociferous at not answering questioned put to him, very firmly, by giving an answer that has nothing to do with the question.

I still don’t understand, when there is a clause allowing individual appeals to the court, how deportation will not be held up as before.

The only reason I can imagine would be that there will be no grounds for appeal and so the courts would have to decline to take the case. If that’s the case why didn’t he just say so. It was an hour of him mostly saying the same thing over and over again, a few ministers asking sensible questions like the one above or the cost, and narcissistic Labour members making cheap shots trying to outdo each other on being witty.

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Perhaps they do have a solution

Apparently they are going to have immigration officers in Rwanda to examine cases...... then why not announce that the 100 Immigration officers with the lowest % clear up of cases will be sent on a 5 year secondment to Rwanda

That'll streamline the process and reduce the length of time it takes to come to a decision thus brining down the waiting list !

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Especially when they talk of getting 1000 more interviewers to clear the backlog and smugglers have coached fugees on what to say.

I wonder if an AI/ChatGPT psych test might do better (even if human had the final decision).

Should criminals — and boat people are by definition now, criminals — should they even be eligible for asylum? They left a safe country, France, to take their chances here. I’m not sure about “flights to Rwanda” though — I gigantic transport ship almost sounds better. 15 days in a humane container ship with prison rations to the nearest port? But then you’d still have to get them inland to Rwanda so maybe planes are not a bad idea. :)

Perhaps prison camps (I agree they are criminals) in Northern Ireland - open prisons very close to the non-border ?

Offline Marmalade

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Perhaps prison camps (I agree they are criminals) in Northern Ireland - open prisons very close to the non-border ?

I really don’t know what the answer is but Rwanda seems the best one yet if the Navy can’t just turn them back mid-Channel. It’s the least heartless I can think of. They have to roll their eyes and think no way do they want to risk being sent there immediately and with no recourse. Mr Sunak has said “it blocks every single reason that has ever been used to prevent flights to Rwanda from taking off".

If it does, well done. But blocking all the reasons used before doesn’t rule out new reasons (?)

If I’m correct, and correct me if I’m wrong, this is the current version, still to be debated for amendments:
External Link/Members Only


In some ways it’s a shame the PM doesn’t have an emergency dictat to be used once or twice in his term with approval of the Attorney General.

Offline Followyourdick

The Rwandan government are laughing their cocks off at the absolute incompetence and shitshow that is ours. Another £100m with £50m more shortly.  I will not be surprised if the number of migrants shipped there reaches zero and it will be an absolute maximum of 200 ish.
Fuck me that’s good value init.

FWIW I think it’s it’s an inhumane and insane policy anyway.

Offline Marmalade

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Perhaps they do have a solution

Apparently they are going to have immigration officers in Rwanda to examine cases...... then why not announce that the 100 Immigration officers with the lowest % clear up of cases will be sent on a 5 year secondment to Rwanda

That'll streamline the process and reduce the length of time it takes to come to a decision thus brining down the waiting list !


I think we really need to look at quotas. How many immigrants can we support? That doesn’t need to include ones going to jobs earning over the new threshold. It’s a quota that needs to be calculated for those with genuine claims.

For instance, many are young men from Sudan. They have no knowledge of British values, laws and ways but almost anyone in Sudan just now could realistically qualify for refugee status. We can’t take that many. How many can we take? Once the quota for the month is filled then the rest are refused, put on a plane to Rwanda and can apply again in 12 months (and maybe won’t).

Without a quota it makes no sense at all. If three starving children appeared on my doorstep I’d feed them until social services arrived. If 50 appeared I’d have to call the police.

You can’t help everybody.

Secondly there needs to be a more realistic appraisal of Pakistani immigration. Most Pakistanis are law abiding but they have a much higher prevalence of certain crimes so they should only be accepted at a higher bar, and not through family association. The problem has been routinely ignored and not helped by Tommy Robinson’s racist rants.
External Link/Members Only

Offline Marmalade

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The BBC, instead of harping criticism, has actually published a ‘External Link/Members Only’. It looks entirely suitable.
But these young boat people, fleeing Sudan or wherever don't just want safety they want economic betterment but also fun… somewhere like Manchester…, or as the interviewer says, like the U.S.

Meanwhile External Link/Members Only highlights unmarked immigrant graves. This is terribly saddening. Yet the migrants know the risk. I disagree with the implication by the Guardian that it is about the “EU countries failing in their obligations under international human rights law.” Both the law and the journey are wrong. Laws that can’t be fairly implemented are bad laws. The priority is to discourage migrants from picking and choosing countries of destination. Escape Sudan, perhaps to another African country.

One person’s emergency is not another person’s priority
or another country’s for that matter…

Offline PepeMAGA


You can’t help everybody.

Secondly there needs to be a more realistic appraisal of Pakistani immigration. Most Pakistanis are law abiding but they have a much higher prevalence of certain crimes so they should only be accepted at a higher bar, and not through family association. The problem has been routinely ignored and not helped by Tommy Robinson’s racist rants.
External Link/Members Only
What has he said that's racist?

Offline lostandfound

Interesting that the CMA thinks it should investigate the relationship between Microsoft and OpenAI.

I mean, hello, the infrastructure required to move AI research along is in the many billions. Noone outside the US or China is going to punt that much money upon an as yet unproven technology.

The UK (London) is a world leader in this field. Tbh do not want an NGO pissing on that.