Author Topic: The Good old stereo stack system  (Read 2942 times)

Offline Marmalade

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Something else I feel I miss, even though I think I have a reasonably good system, is quality when it comes to volume. A young person's ears are less offended by high volumes of noise but it's still I think related somehow to sound quality.

I don't recall the loudest crack of thunder, symphony orchestra or other high quality or natural soundscape seeming unpleasant. The tech articles say that electrostatic speakers produce levels of distortion one to two orders of magnitude lower than conventional cone drivers in a box, which is kind of how I remember them. One felt immersed in the sound rather than battered by it.

Probably something can be achieved with a fancy unit for adjusting the sound. Plugging my headphones into my h-ifi gives me a good sound: yet if I connect the same headphones to my TV (using a Toslink Optical to Analog Stereo converter) the only way of adjusting the sound is with a tiny and not very convenient knob on the converter. I get a slightly better (in many ways) sound by connecting my Airpods by bluetooth but it lacks the coziness of headphones (and this is after pissing about getting the newer Apple Bluetooth to work with something, heaven forbid, not made by Apple!)

The old days with vinyl used to be so much more simple. :dancegirl:

Offline Marmalade

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heh heh... When I read marm's opening comment, I just knew it would launch the digital vs analogue debate  :D

From a diehard old school audiophile's perspective - admittedly a dying breed - vinyl does sound better. They're prepared to forgive the pops, click and warps in that belief. It's often described as 'warmer', more expansive or dimensional. When played on a top end system (apols for going off topic) you will hear nuances that CD doesn't reveal. This is catnip for music aficionados.

I haven't read the article yet but wonder if it talks about resolution.
 - CDs are limited to 16-bit resolution.
 - WAV or FLAC digital files can go up to Studio Master level, i.e. 24-bit resolution.
 - Vinyl is not limited by resolution.
Imagine it a bit like viewing a famous painting. If digitally reproduced, all the information is seemingly available on the surface. It's also a lot easier to transport in bulk. Vinyl is like viewing a very close facsimile of original painting up close. It has a richness, you can see the brushstrokes, colours pop out, etc.

Of course, in today's consumerist culture, few are bothered with that level of detail. Convenience is king.
Which is why audiophiles are in an ever decreasing circle. Often laughed at for being sad anorak types still living with their mothers. I've seen droves of them when attending hi-fi shows, earnestly asking manufacturers inane questions about the minutest detail. Bless 'em. At these price points, they are justified in questioning why.

I had a favourite album which I'd only heard on CD. When I got my record deck and played a vinyl copy, the music came alive in the room. It was so much more involving. There was detail I'd never heard on a frequently played album. You could get a sense of the 'sound stage', where musicians were positioned in the room  :music:
When I later heard the same record at a dealer's, on their top end system (we're talking £23K just for the record player), it was like the singer was holographically suspended between the speakers. Astonishing.

Yes, it's true that most albums today are recorded digitally so that would put the argument to bed.
Inevitably, a few small independent record labels have sprung up to produce an all-analogue recording pathway. Naturally, you pay more for the privilege, and it keeps audiophiles happy. Plus, they have their collection of vinyl cut in the 60s/ 70s/ early 80s, when quality was a given. 
It's possibly the last call for these types, stubbornly holding onto their vinyl. Maybe two more decades and they're gone? I'm one, yes - been buying it ever since I had pocket money. There's so much, I don't dare move homes  :lol:

Apologies again for briefly going off on a tangent  :hi:

Loved the comment about ‘holographically suspended”.

I can imagine there must be punters old enough to remember settling down with a wondrous wall of stereo equipment (around which the rest of the room and ancillary furniture would have to have been organised) calmly discussing with suitably sophisticated friends, the best album to select for the shared audio pleasure and inspiration (and of course dropping a tab of acid to fully appreciate the audio dynamics, the universe and all. )

 :music: “Why don’t we sing this song all together…”
(Some subtleties of the lyrics that followed would be lost on a present generation).

Offline spiralnotebook

There was a series a few years ago where the producer/sound engineers of classic albums did a back to back comparison of the original vinyl to the cd version. I think it was Nirvanas Nevermind album and the engineer took off his headphones after listening to the cd version and said ‘this isn’t my album’.

Offline Marmalade

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There was a series a few years ago where the producer/sound engineers of classic albums did a back to back comparison of the original vinyl to the cd version. I think it was Nirvanas Nevermind album and the engineer took off his headphones after listening to the cd version and said ‘this isn’t my album’.

Wow!  :drinks:

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Wow!  :drinks:

As said its just "colouration" the Vinyl verson will sometimes be balanced differntly, mastered differntly to cope with limitations of the disc cutter and that agan can be influnced by whos operating the thing not many make then now!. As well which cutting stylus is in use the speed to the cutting lathe and amplitute of the groove cut and then the relpay mistracking end of side distorion etc!

Bit here i on Direct Metal mastering interesting!..


With the groove being cut straight into a metal foil, this removed a number of plating stages in the manufacturing process. This gave rise to more upper frequency levels and less surface noise. Additionally, groove pre-echo problems are significantly diminished. Bass is typically tight and well defined, even described as more accurate than the fat, mushy sound of lacquered vinyl pressings.

Because of the modulation arising from this cutting method, criticisms have arisen of the sound of such 'DMM' records. They are often labelled as bright or edgy.

DMM LP pressings are sometimes described as having a harshness or forwardness in the high frequencies. The fact the groove is cut to copper, a hard metal, and not to soft lacquer, nitrocellulose, supposedly endows DMM vinyl LP with a very different tonality to traditionally manufactured vinyl LP pressings. Direct metal mastering requires a radically different cutting angle than traditional (lacquer) cutting, almost 0 degrees.[4] However the playback cartridges will always have the standard playback angle of 15–22.5°. Thus, the DMM process includes electronic audio processing [5] so the records can be played with a standard cartridge despite having been cut at a substantially different angle. This electronic processing might account for the supposedly different high frequency "signature sound" of DMM records.

Offline Gordon Bennett

I ditched my turntable at least 20 yrs ago. Maintained a "stack" to play CDs and power an AV 5.1 set-up.

I finally ditched the "stack" a few years ago when I went totally deaf on one side so could no longer hear stereo. Replaced it with a beefy streaming speaker.

I must admit, getting shot of the spaghetti like mass of dusty plugs, leads and cables was a joy. Losing the stack and speakers seemed to make the lounge 25% bigger too.

The single streaming speaker just has a single 13amp plug cable and sits discretely in the corner and chucks out nice room filling sound. In hindsight, I wish I'd ditched the stack a decade earlier.

Offline Marmalade

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I must admit, getting shot of the spaghetti like mass of dusty plugs, leads and cables was a joy. Losing the stack and speakers seemed to make the lounge 25% bigger too.

Once upon a time, back in the days when whores were almost as cheap as chips and a piece of fish was substantial, there was an era when wires were never an issue. The ‘stereo’ was the only thing in the living room with wires, except a small box-like thing (known as a ‘television’) sitting on the sideboard or in a corner somewhere. The kitchen had an electric kettle and the bedroom maybe had an electric blanket or one of those ridiculous contraptions known as a teasmaid which was supposed to make a cup of tea and didn’t.

Computers were the size of a large room and only existed in special industrial installations. They were surrounded by large spinning wheels of magnetic tape and machines that spewed out miles and miles of ticker tape.

No-one ever really thought about wires.

My old man’s ‘stereo’ was an enormous cabinet of polished wood. No-one was allowed to touch it. One side, when the lid was lifted, housed the gramaphone. Alongside it was an area not to place the sleeve of the record being played (that would go on one’s lap to be admired) but two spools, each about 9” wide, to make recordings. The 12”s were housed in an attractive compartmentalised cupboard in the lower section and in the middle section were some large knobs to switch the thing on and control the sophisticated refinements of bass, treble and balance, plus a couple of knobs for the radio receiver. A feint glow indicated the vast array of ‘valves’ inside which processed the signal from the gramaphone miraculously into sound.

Even when I took possession of ‘separates’, no one ever thought about wires. Electrostatics, shimmering golden surfaces and slightly curved, were the most beautiful piece of furniture imaginable. I’m sure they were each connected with a ‘wire’ — but such things were a small detail, noticed only in the initial layout of the room. None of my friends owned or wanted to own a mind-numbing ‘television set’.

Tape recorders were replaced by cassettes. These were kind of cool. You could make one to impress a girl, or take it travelling with a pocket cassette player. The sound was pretty shit but that wasn’t the point. Then came CDs. Now ‘music’ was disorganised: vinyl, cassettes, and CDs. Tape made a come back somewhere in a variety of competing systems for recording awful tv programmes and later I think as a substitute for people who couldn’t leave their homes to go to the cinema.

Fortunately live bands were still cheap. Concerts like ‘Glastonbury’ were FREE ffs!!

Suddenly everyone had to have a computer. And things to plug into it. And a mobile phone. And plugs for that too. A massive industry arose in bits of wire. The bits of wire were now expensive, all with different types and combinations of plugs on the ends. And stereos to connect. And things to charge or connect the phone and somebody else’s phone. And systems to arrange all the wires. And a box for all the fucking useless ones in case they came in handy. Mostly they wouldn’t get used as everything had built-senescence. You couldn’t just change a valve or repair it. You had to change the fucking lot. And it would need new wires!!

Somewhere, I had an acoustic guitar. No electric. No wires. I could play it a bit. Friends would come over. Some played quite well. No background hum. No wires. Just the dynamic peace of human relationships.
 :drinks:

Offline spiralnotebook

I think the comments were regarding the amount of information stripped away or masked by the file format.

Online sparkus

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I always ended up with hand me down equipment in my room as a youth, so I've had my fair share of black Alba, silver Amstrads etc. with one tape deck still working or a belt drive CD drawer which you had to pull out by hand.  TBH I just stuck to ghetto blasters and swerved the vinyl.

Car stereos were also very competitive in the 90s, Blaupunkt and all that.

Offline Squire Haggard

I've still got this single that I bought in 1968. I've not played it in decades, no turntable. Missing in the YouTube version is a huge KERUMP as a bomb lands after what sounds like a dive bomber at 3.50. You dont hear it at all here. I dont know whether the CD would have the same KERUMP as the original vinyl or not, or would be more like the YouTube version.

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« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 11:28:23 pm by Squire Haggard »

Offline Marmalade

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electrostatics are excecllent for accuracy, a pair of QUAD ELS 63'3 s can be had for a few hundred quid but you must make sure they are in decent condition and havent been abused!
The old Quad electrostatics are fantastic value plus they look nice, better than their new models I think.
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I wonder who has the money to buy more 'top-of-the-range' though?
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That's three zeroes after the comma  :scare:
But if you were paying in pounds it would only be £136,000.
Don't forget some spare change for that exceedingly classy deck, amp, and cables...

Offline cunningman

Don't forget some spare change for that exceedingly classy deck, amp, and cables...

Cables???

Offline lostandfound

Cables???

There are special flat earth cables you MUST buy to be counted a true audiophile!

Offline lostandfound

electrostatics are excecllent for accuracy, a pair of QUAD ELS 63'3 s can be had for a few hundred quid but you must make sure they are in decent condition and havent been abused!

Ah yes - FRED - the Full Range Electrostatic Doublet. IIRC they were a few hundred quid brand new when they came out.

Called the '63 because that was when Peter Walker began work on designing them - electrostatic speakers with a wider frequency response ie some bass.

Sennheiser electrostatic headphones make them look inexpensive!

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Yes 1963 bought my pair in 1982 still work fine couple of new panels but essentail maintanace!

One very intresting differnce, Peter Walker of QUAD thought for the most accurate reporduction then the speaker must a be a point source thats to say the sound must appear to come from one point in space so to implent that he decided that the diagphram thats the bit that moves to produce the audio must intersect that plane so it was equippd with delay lines as the sound travelled out it does work very well.

Driven by a best avaible signal and excllent amps they are stuunninlgy accurate, no not that loud and they do produce bass not huge amounts, but it is there operated in the area and levels to which they were intenmded they are superb!! Mind you the orignal ESL's can be good some people stack them two per side on top of each other!

As they have polarising panels inside, lots of little holes, the fixed plates are held at around 6,000 volts the input signal is then wound up by a transformer to a few KV (Kilovolts) if you go too heavy with the volume contol then the moving diaphram can wallop the fixed plates and a spark occurs, so they ave a built in protection device that is a small radio receiver that detects the spark when it does that it electrially fires a crowbar across the input to shut it down for a moment to protect it!

All a very clever design for 1963...

Offline PLeisure

The old Quad electrostatics are fantastic value plus they look nice, better than their new models I think.

I wonder who has the money to buy more 'top-of-the-range' though?

That's three zeroes after the comma  :scare:
But if you were paying in pounds it would only be £136,000.
Don't forget some spare change for that exceedingly classy deck, amp, and cables...

Focal dealers often pair these mahoosive speakers (which are frikkin' ugly, imo) with Naim's Statement amplification system. A mere £170K.
Focal own Naim, so it's not just sonic harmony that's compelling your wallet.
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Makes these overinflated Russian/ Brazilian hookers nudging their rates beyond £250/hr look like small potatoes  :sarcastic:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 06:44:25 am by PLeisure »