Why are so many town centres so shit?

[Proton]

  I believe this thread will go on for ever so much crap out there still being built by destroying old buildings of historical character.
     UK is really a depressingly drab country with regards to most towns and cities all looking the same.
        Just as important there are hardly any sizable natural forests and open spaces where you can FREELY ACCESS even the few National Park you are very controlled in what you can do.

[lillythesavage]

I believe this thread will go on for ever so much crap out there still being built by destroying old buildings of historical character.
     UK is really a depressingly drab country with regards to most towns and cities all looking the same.
        Just as important there are hardly any sizable natural forests and open spaces where you can FREELY ACCESS even the few National Park you are very controlled in what you can do.

The forest bit is true, Epping Forest now has it,s own Police service, in 4 wheel drives and little hitlers, who chase people home at 4pm.

[Doc Holliday]

Go on then, why does the 13A plug tell me all I need to know about the failure of britain?

Puzzled also? Perhaps he means that, unlike most of the rest of the world, the UK uses ring mains which means, as a consequence, we have to have fused plugs? There are both advantages and disadvantages with ring mains but we have stuck with them.

The plug itself has stood the test of time though.

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[Jomoore]

It's difficult to think about what's happened to high streets in isolation from the question about what's happened to our towns, suburbs and shopping/socialising habits.

I'm not sure why it's a surprise that high street shops are closing at the same time as we continue to build large, attractive, enclosed shopping malls with pubs, cinemas, restaurants and free parking.  People obviously prefer to go to those.  The same people then express sadness that their high street is not full of quaint local butchers, grocers, florists etc, but the simple reason is that the people doing the complaining often never gave them their business anyway, they just want it to look nice and quaint.  So the natural result is that the out of town shopping centres are visited by the out of town and suburb dwellers spending lots of cash and getting good quality and choice. Not to mention the huge growth of convenient online shopping, with possibly an even bigger effect on the high street than the malls have.   

Consequently the high streets are left empty, or filled with betting and charity shops, interspersed with rough sleepers and graffiti. 

[JontyR]

There is a difference though, I am often surprised that smaller centres away from the big towns and cities often seem to be thriving, and independent shops do seem to exist. Is this other folks experiences from where they are?

[Ali Katt]

Reasons = 1, on-line shopping,
                2, out of town shopping centres and supermarkets,
                3, extortionate rents and rates,
                4, have to pay to park,
                5, gestapo like traffic wardens,
                6, yellow lines everywhere,
                7, bus only lanes and roads,
                8, CCTV cameras to catch and fine every motoring error,
                9, motorist treated like a cash cow,
                10, too many charity shops,
                11, too many beggars.

Good points = Eye candy in summer (sometimes). Nice pubs (sometimes). Library,s (free books to borrow). Good cafes (occasionally). Bus stations.

In the city centre near me I have seen big chain stores close because of the rent. It's been mentioned before by multiple people, but offering free parking on a weekend is a better way of getting people into town than building more cycle lanes or regular buses, nobody wants to carry 5 big shopping bags on a bus.

[Ali Katt]

They are actually getting support (benefits) and begging. I'm presuming you're not saying that begging is their official form of employment?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.......chances are it's a duck. They are stereotyped as druggies as the vast majority of them are. They work in shifts around my way. One cheeky blighter even has a folding chair he sits in when the traffic lights are on greem 

Topic in itself, I do feel genuinely sorry for people who land on hard times, get mixed up with drink or drugs or come from a background of abuse, but I never give money to beggars. As selfish as it sounds if nobody did they wouldn't beg for ten hours a day. They target specific areas with high student populations or footfalls, "posh" shops of do-gooding middle class folks and areas were they won't get moved on. Quite telling I've never seen begging in Barnsley; not saying it don't go on there though. Best thing to do if people want to help is to volunteer, I would love to do it, but I genuinely don't have the time to commit at the moment, not an excuse on my part.

[lillythesavage]

There is a difference though, I am often surprised that smaller centres away from the big towns and cities often seem to be thriving, and independent shops do seem to exist. Is this other folks experiences from where they are?

I see it often, Billericay comes to mind, a very pleasant main street with a mix of chains and independents, shops, cafes and bars, always life there, but you can park on the street for a couple of hours, and lets be honest, you are very unlucky if Hitler has clocked you parking and noted the time, in fact I do not remember seeing a Hitler. 

I think a rail station in the town can help them thrive with passing trade footfall.

[Disco dave]

High street will never come back. IMO its retails parks that will be the future, more and more of them will pop up and it will be all national big brands. Small indies will struggle.

[ulstersubbie]

I used to do a lot of work ion Eastern Europe - Basildon reminds me of some of the poorer Eastern European towns I visited. Utterly depressing, very slightly threatening (goodness knows what it's like at night), and decaying rapidly. Interestingly, I know there is a lot of well paid jobs in Basildon - I assume those who have them live elsewhere.

I was in Basildon last year for two days and it was soul destroying, some Eastern European towns are lovely in comparison (I have seen a fair bit of E Europe in my time).

[Sha99er]

  I believe this thread will go on for ever so much crap out there still being built by destroying old buildings of historical character.
     UK is really a depressingly drab country with regards to most towns and cities all looking the same.

Exactly this, in my town we recently destroyed a building built of granite somewhere around 1850 and replace it with a fucking aldi, which went up in a fortnight.

[lillythesavage]

I have friends who live in Basildon, or rather did, recently moved home with a big profit on the house, and it is not bad at all, being local to the hospital saved his life when he had a heart attack, it was the right hospital.

Planning is corrupt, as are most councils, my mate told me this morning of a new build near him, half built and they have given planning permission for a massive scrap recyclers across the road.

It is ok though, because the massive shed next to the flats will have a grass and bush planted roof , which die very quickly as the shallow soil and angled roof drains any water they do get, they end up an ugly weed infested mess.

There is also massive abuse of retrospective planning laws, letting things happen then granting permissions, designed for mistakes, but widely used to push through things.

[mh]

Who's to blame for this? Easy. Town planners and local councils. They COULD get it right, if they wanted to. But their primary purpose seems to be to rinse as many people and businesses as possible first, and then create something later.

I think you misunderstand what power town planners have in existing towns. They get to devise policies for what their councillors would like to be there but cannot force those businesses to come (or stay). Planning applications arrive and have to be considered as they are submitted; town planners don't have the right to modify the applications (they can try to persuade the applicant to make changes is all). Even if refused, the developer will appeal and the Planning Inspectorate overturns the council's decision much of the time.

[mr.bluesky]

Empty shops and high parking rates, simple as that.

[sir wanksalot]

It's difficult to think about what's happened to high streets in isolation from the question about what's happened to our towns, suburbs and shopping/socialising habits.

I'm not sure why it's a surprise that high street shops are closing at the same time as we continue to build large, attractive, enclosed shopping malls with pubs, cinemas, restaurants and free parking.  People obviously prefer to go to those.  The same people then express sadness that their high street is not full of quaint local butchers, grocers, florists etc, but the simple reason is that the people doing the complaining often never gave them their business anyway, they just want it to look nice and quaint.  So the natural result is that the out of town shopping centres are visited by the out of town and suburb dwellers spending lots of cash and getting good quality and choice. Not to mention the huge growth of convenient online shopping, with possibly an even bigger effect on the high street than the malls have.   

Consequently the high streets are left empty, or filled with betting and charity shops, interspersed with rough sleepers and graffiti.

Supermarkets don't take enough flak for the demise of our high streets, probably because we all use them and they're convenient.

Practically everything that a small independant shop would sell e.g. books, booze, meat, bread, toys, DVD's etc are all sold in supermarkets

[King Nuts]

There is a difference though, I am often surprised that smaller centres away from the big towns and cities often seem to be thriving, and independent shops do seem to exist. Is this other folks experiences from where they are?

Where I live, the town centre is as forlorn as most others. Full of crap shops, and pikey types wandering around all day, eating pies out of the bag and so on.

But much closer, there's a neighbourhood High Street of sorts, where every single shop is an indie. Butcher, fishmonger, off licence, bakers (two), deli, hairdressers (4 or 5), pub, Chinese, and a pizza restaurant. Now I admit I don't know how the town planning thing works, but I'd bet the farm that Tesco and other chains would want to be there, but as I understand it, the local council won't give any of the chains approval. It's a great neighbourhood, loads of footfall, on-street parking (limited to an hour, but free, and unlimited parking after 6pm.)

Just shows how things could be in town centres if the council doesn't fuck things up for everyone.

[Gordon Bennett]

Everything in Britain is worn out or broken. Everything is done on the cheap.

The new towns are 50 years old and falling to bits. All of them, all at once because nobody did any renewals.

If it still works it's Victorian.

The 13A plug tells you all you need to know about the failure of Britain.

The UK13 amp plug is by far and away the greatest, most innovative and safe plug in the world. Nothing else comes close.

[mr.bluesky]

Indeed very short sighted,Stratford uon Avon is not too far from me and I never go there I never even drive through it unless it's very early or late.
Roads are ridiculously over traffic lighted,parking is sparse and expensive and the rates so eye watering high there's no shops you'd want to visit anyway.
Things aren't quite so rosey now the Yanks and Japs are staying away either.

You haven't missed much. It is full of empty shops. Used to be full of American and Japanese tourists, not any more. Probably will get better in the summer months. A shame as Stratford used to be one of my favourite towns to visit.

[MilleMiglia]

Anyone been to Cheltenham of late? I went there a few years back, and it really did come across as my dream location. Sadly, well beyond my budget and, without doubt, far more expensive now.

[Ali Katt]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind charity shops? With regards town planning what I think is messed up is allowing three betting shops down one street in deprived areas, it doesn't help.

[lillythesavage]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind charity shops? With regards town planning what I think is messed up is allowing three betting shops down one street in deprived areas, it doesn't help.

No, if they are neat and tidy, without stuff dumped outside every evening. How much the charities see of the proceeds is a whole new topic. Anyone can open a charity shop.

Best to deal with charity run places, but even then the good stuff often does not reach the shelves.

[sparkus]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind charity shops? With regards town planning what I think is messed up is allowing three betting shops down one street in deprived areas, it doesn't help.

I don't mind a mooch (or just a laugh at the tat) in them but it's when you have a high street that's all charity shops, Costa and Betfred that's the problem.  I notice when you browse in Sue Ryder shops in shires there's always a bored bosomy assistant to ask 'Can I help you sir?'

[ulstersubbie]

Anyone been to Cheltenham of late? I went there a few years back, and it really did come across as my dream location. Sadly, well beyond my budget and, without doubt, far more expensive now.

Cheltenham is desirable, I had a punt there a couple of years ago. Like you, beyond my budget but a place that is very appealing.

[lillythesavage]

I don't mind a mooch (or just a laugh at the tat) in them but it's when you have a high street that's all charity shops, Costa and Betfred that's the problem.  I notice when you browse in Sue Ryder shops in shires there's always a bored bosomy assistant to ask 'Can I help you sir?'

I spent far too much time in betting shops, and dog tracks, come to think of it, playing cards too, until I beat the addiction.

But this was when betting shops were just that, and the only place you could bet on the GG,s, unless the pub had a bookie, not the digital cash grabbers they are now.

[sparkus]

I spent far too much time in betting shops, and dog tracks, come to think of it, playing cards too, until I beat the addiction.

But this was when betting shops were just that, and the only place you could bet on the GG,s, unless the pub had a bookie, not the digital cash grabbers they are now.

I've never found betting shops particularly appealing but of late I have noticed that Betfred and Ladbrokes do tend to employ curvy girls in tight polos when they're stood in the window putting up the odds.

There obviously wasn't as much call for dog tracks as there was after the war but I think it's a pity the likes of Walthamstow and Catford weren't protected somehow as they were both popular nights even for locals, even if just twice a year.  They were both sold by unscrupulous owners for a quick buck property development, the Walthamstow one could have been restored when the 2008 financial crash undermined the sale but they were determined to put it out of use, even though it sat empty for years afterwards.

[lillythesavage]

I've never found betting shops particularly appealing but of late I have noticed that Betfred and Ladbrokes do tend to employ curvy girls in tight polos when they're stood in the window putting up the odds.

There obviously wasn't as much call for dog tracks as there was after the war but I think it's a pity the likes of Walthamstow and Catford weren't protected somehow as they were both popular nights even for locals, even if just twice a year.  They were both sold by unscrupulous owners for a quick buck property development, the Walthamstow one could have been restored when the 2008 financial crash undermined the sale but they were determined to put it out of use, even though it sat empty for years afterwards.

Both Walthamstow and Hackney had night clubs back in the day, Walthamstow had a Vip area at the dog track, always young fitties working there, I dated one once, and the stories she told me lol, they were not just serving food and drink, she once had an overnight after work, with Bryan Ferry.

[sparkus]

Both Walthamstow and Hackney had night clubs back in the day, Walthamstow had a Vip area at the dog track, always young fitties working there, I dated one once, and the stories she told me lol, they were not just serving food and drink, she once had an overnight after work, with Bryan Ferry.

David Beckham was a glass collector at Walthamstow, I mean you wouldn't trust him to work the till

Her reg number wasn't CPL593H was it?

[lillythesavage]

David Beckham was a glass collector at Walthamstow, I mean you wouldn't trust him to work the till

Her reg number wasn't CPL593H was it?

Jesus, it was a while ago, but not 1970, probably early mid 80,s and her car was not that old, married with 2 young kids, I met her in another of my club haunts and hubby did not seem to bothered if she was out all night.

There was all sorts going on with the " stars" and the " waitresses" in that VIP area. I never had a clue while losing my money with the plebs, until she told me all about it,

[mh]

Where I live, the town centre is as forlorn as most others. Full of crap shops, and pikey types wandering around all day, eating pies out of the bag and so on.

But much closer, there's a neighbourhood High Street of sorts, where every single shop is an indie. Butcher, fishmonger, off licence, bakers (two), deli, hairdressers (4 or 5), pub, Chinese, and a pizza restaurant. Now I admit I don't know how the town planning thing works, but I'd bet the farm that Tesco and other chains would want to be there, but as I understand it, the local council won't give any of the chains approval. It's a great neighbourhood, loads of footfall, on-street parking (limited to an hour, but free, and unlimited parking after 6pm.)

Just shows how things could be in town centres if the council doesn't fuck things up for everyone.

Yep, councils can keep supermarkets out - up to a point, but that point is breached when the supermarkets can show that existing stores are trading at or above capacity (and of course if new houses are built that is accelerated). How they demonstrate "over trading" is an exercise in footfall analysis vs floorspace vs catchment households and a parallel public (dis)information campaign by the supermarket's PR company for a store on a site on which they have purchased an option. The subsequent application will include all kinds of promises not to trade at certain times or in certain goods and will hand over cash for free parking in the town centre for the benefit of the Independents etc. Councils often roll over here because of what comes next: If the council continues to stonewall and reject applications then of course the supermarket's agent has all the ammunition needed to lodge an appeal and yet again the Planning Inspectorate frequently grants permission against the wishes of the council. And in these circumstances the council loses most or all the those promises and goodies made by the applicant earlier.

People want 2 things from the planning system - to be able to build things they want and prevent the building of things they don't want. The Planning Inspectorate is the government's poodle that ensures planning authorities don't really have the power.

[mh]

The UK13 amp plug is by far and away the greatest, most innovative and safe plug in the world. Nothing else comes close.

Agreed. Beware of the far east UK plug clones that don't have the insulation on the upper part of the L/N pins. The only downside to the UK plug is the size, but now high-quality folding prong plugs are available for chargers etc that are transported frequently.

[king tarzan]

Even the greatest city in England/UK has sadly suffered too.
And sadly too with social economic issues..

[lillythesavage]

Even the greatest city in England/UK has sadly suffered too.
And sadly too with social economic issues..

I went into town this morning for an early lunch appointment, had a wander round, Oxford Street and North of it.

I like how the cafes and bars have taken to the footpath, doing a decent trade, and with much lower foot and road traffic it was not a problem, parking was easy enough, and people were pulling up on yellow lines for short periods without Hitlers appearing.
Litter was almost non existent, the road sweepers are having an easier job with lower numbers, never saw a beggar, it was very pleasant indeed, if only it would stay that way, Covid has improved the place no end