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Author Topic: Assisted Dying  (Read 1740 times)

Offline Genesis42777

My mum spent around 3 weeks in a care home, before passing away, and the bill came to just under £5000.   If my mum was still alive and in care, we would have had to put our mum's place up for sale, as we could be looking at £60,000 bill for the year


We sold my mothers house as a "quick sale" two days befor xmas eve at 25k off market  value as the care home she wanted to go into wanted £20.000 up front i kid you not.she was in there 6 years and it cost £270.000 if it had not been for a very shrewd accountant who told us were to hide some money me and my twin would of ended up with nowt she died on 1st January and the care home wanted to charge her all of January,s money.We told them we thought they had had enough..
We didn't hear back from them.

Regards G  :hi:


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Online Dipper

My mum spent around 3 weeks in a care home, before passing away, and the bill came to just under £5000.   If my mum was still alive and in care, we would have had to put our mum's place up for sale, as we could be looking at £60,000 bill for the year

A National scandal IMO.

Spend all you can whilst healthy. Let the state cover costs like the rest who pass away without a bean to their name.

Saving cash and providing your own home seems to be a mugs game in 2021.

Offline Blackpool Rock

A National scandal IMO.

Spend all you can whilst healthy. Let the state cover costs like the rest who pass away without a bean to their name.

Saving cash and providing your own home seems to be a mugs game in 2021.
I agree with you here however I find myself at odds with my family on this, while I agree people should have to pay something towards their own care in later life I don't think it's either right or fair that someone who has been sensible and not pissed all their money away then has to use all their savings and sell their house to fund a shitty nursing home.
My family seem to be of the opinion that it's only right someone uses all their money to fund it.

I'm hearing of care home fees in the region of £750-£100 a week or £3000-£4000 a month which is an eye watering £50K a year.
When I point out you can get a hotel including food etc cheaper than this my family claim you are paying for all the "specialist" care you receive, from what i've seen old folks are plonked in a piss soaked chair and sit there most of the day doing fuck all with a TV blaring some shit like Emmerdale in the corner  :dash: Kill me now, Please  :scare:

Wasn't there an announcement recently about limiting how much you have to pay  :unknown: I know it's been mooted for years but I thought there was actually some action a couple of months back  :unknown:

Online Doc Holliday

Inevitably when discussing this subject, we get into the cost of Social Care and inheritance etc thus adding weight to the opposition argument regarding potential abuse of any assisted dying protocol.

"Granny would be better off dead as the inheritance is rapidly disappearing"

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

It has crossed the fiflty abyss of my mind the cost of employing a couple of young Asain ladies Thai or Chinese to look after my needs in later times:)

They get to keep whats left over, mind you thats an incentive to see me off earlier I suppose;!.

Odd hin't it?, all this sites about is starting off life and how pleasurable that  that can be, but at the other end;!!!!


Anyone seen that woman Ask a Mortician on Youtube;!!!!

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Offline Genesis42777

Inevitably when discussing this subject, we get into the cost of Social Care and inheritance etc thus adding weight to the opposition argument regarding potential abuse of any assisted dying protocol.

"Granny would be better off dead as the inheritance is rapidly disappearing"


I think you are missing the point here mate, Granny would be better off getting the care she deserves and the system paying for it,that she has contributed to all her working life.And knowing that being careful with her money and knowing that her inheritance be recieved by the people/organisation she wished it for in the first place.

regards G  :hi:
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Offline myothernameis



We sold my mothers house as a "quick sale" two days befor xmas eve at 25k off market  value as the care home she wanted to go into wanted £20.000 up front i kid you not.she was in there 6 years and it cost £270.000 if it had not been for a very shrewd accountant who told us were to hide some money me and my twin would of ended up with nowt she died on 1st January and the care home wanted to charge her all of January,s money.We told them we thought they had had enough..
We didn't hear back from them.

Regards G  :hi:

My uncle was a very shrewd person, when it came to finances, and what care homes, or a career-er to look after them in there home.  A very close friend acted as the family lawyer, and my uncles, in the mid 80's gifted money to my brothers and sister, and then later on to my nephew nieces, and some of his friends

With out going into financial details, my uncles gifted away, around £500,000, and the house was gifted to my sister

So with gifts, the person who received the gift, as long as the person lives beyond they 7 year period, no tax is due, and the house cant be touched

From 2000, my uncles began to get very frail, and needed care at home, and later on in a care home.   There was no estate which the care home could force them to sell of, and savings tied up in other accounts

Online Doc Holliday



I think you are missing the point here mate, Granny would be better off getting the care she deserves and the system paying for it,that she has contributed to all her working life.And knowing that being careful with her money and knowing that her inheritance be recieved by the people/organisation she wished it for in the first place.

regards G  :hi:

I wouldn't disagree with what you say, but this should not a discussion about the issues with social care in particular the financing of such.

When poor social care becomes a reason to consider euthanasia, then those opposed to assisted suicide have proved their case about the dangers of such. That was my point.  :hi:

Online Doc Holliday



So with gifts, the person who received the gift, as long as the person lives beyond they 7 year period, no tax is due, and the house cant be touched

From 2000, my uncles began to get very frail, and needed care at home, and later on in a care home.   There was no estate which the care home could force them to sell of, and savings tied up in other accounts

The seven year rule relates to Inheritance Tax and not to Social Care assessments. The Local Authority can technically go back as long as they wish in deciding if assets were disposed of to avoid future social care costs, although in practice they may well not bother.

Now I am also contributing to taking this off topic.  :D

Online Squire Haggard

Cap on care costs coming.......

''The £86,000 cap on care liabilities is the centrepiece of the government’s long-awaited reform of adult social care funding in England, announced today by prime minister Boris Johnson and due to come into force in October 2023.''

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Offline Aldebaran

From my own experience with family members and friends there comes a point in the progress of a terminal illness when a quick death is a blessing for everyone concerned, where that point is maybe hard to recognise at the time.

I think part of the reluctance of the medical profession to accept some form of assisted dying is that the doing of the actual deed will fall to them, not many people enter the medical profession to become an executioner.

To cite my own experience with this, a few years ago a family member passed away after being virtually bed ridden for a couple of years and needing round the clock care. The illness was incurable and degenerative. They absolutely refused to move into a nursing home. The effect on the main carer in the family was severe, sleep deprivation, stress, constant worry, sometimes having to change shitty bed sheets and clean the patient at 3am because they hadn't managed to make it to the commode in time, not to mention having to clean out the aforementioned commode every day.
There was the constant effort of trying to keep the person clean and comfortable, often to a barrage of complaints and self pity. I lost count of the number of times I heard "I wish I could die and be out of this" and of course there was nothing we could do to help.
When the relative finally passed away, with the family around the bed, yes there was grief and sorrow, but there was also a huge feeling of relief that it was finally over, not just for the patient, but for those who had to put their life on hold. For one at least, I don't think the psychological scars from those years will ever completely go away. There was also guilt at feeling that relief, and too often all the focus is on the person who is dying and nobody thinks of the effects on the carer(s). There are a lot of aspects to this issue, I just hope that our legislators can find a way through it all.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 06:38:15 pm by Aldebaran »

Offline unclepokey

My 98 YO mum is, as I write, in her care home having been discharged from a hospital and having decided to stop eating, drinking and taking her pills for almost the last fortnight. Unbelievably she is still alive - just.

You can only imagine the turmoil in my mind at this time.

Offline Gordon Bennett

To cite my own experience with this, a few years ago a family member passed away after being virtually bed ridden for a couple of years and needing round the clock care. The illness was incurable and degenerative. They absolutely refused to move into a nursing home. The effect on the main carer in the family was severe, sleep deprivation, stress, constant worry, sometimes having to change shitty bed sheets and clean the patient at 3am because they hadn't managed to make it to the commode in time, not to mention having to clean out the aforementioned commode every day.
There was the constant effort of trying to keep the person clean and comfortable, often to a barrage of complaints and self pity. I lost count of the number of times I heard "I wish I could die and be out of this" and of course there was nothing we could do to help.
When the relative finally passed away, with the family around the bed, yes there was grief and sorrow, but there was also a huge feeling of relief that it was finally over, not just for the patient, but for those who had to put their life on hold. For one at least, I don't think the psychological scars from those years will ever completely go away. There was also guilt at feeling that relief, and too often all the focus is on the person who is dying and nobody thinks of the effects on the carer(s). There are a lot of aspects to this issue, I just hope that our legislators can find a way through it all.

I've been doing the above level of caring for 30+ years and expect to be doing it for another 30 years. It's not just the elderly who require care, 100s of 1000s of disabled folks need care too. I just get on with it and make it work as do loads of others - I genuinely don't get it when people whine about having to care for their infirm parents or footing the bill for farming them out to someone else to care for.

Online Squire Haggard

My 98 YO mum is, as I write, in her care home having been discharged from a hospital and having decided to stop eating, drinking and taking her pills for almost the last fortnight. Unbelievably she is still alive - just.

You can only imagine the turmoil in my mind at this time.

A few years ago, mine was almost the same age, also in a care home, when we knew that the end was near. All the best.

Offline Aldebaran

I've been doing the above level of caring for 30+ years and expect to be doing it for another 30 years. It's not just the elderly who require care, 100s of 1000s of disabled folks need care too. I just get on with it and make it work as do loads of others - I genuinely don't get it when people whine about having to care for their infirm parents or footing the bill for farming them out to someone else to care for.

I quite agree, you really don't get it.

The patient was elderly, the main carer was elderly themselves. Because of distance and work commitments, younger relatives couldn't do much to help, one even lived abroad.
Whatever your situation, there will be a lot of people far worse off, struggling much more, and far less able to cope, so I suggest you get off your high horse. You weren't there, I was!

Offline Genesis42777

I've been doing the above level of caring for 30+ years and expect to be doing it for another 30 years. It's not just the elderly who require care, 100s of 1000s of disabled folks need care too. I just get on with it and make it work as do loads of others - I genuinely don't get it when people whine about having to care for their infirm parents or footing the bill for farming them out to someone else to care for.

Farming people out,rather a rude and callous comment GB
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Offline Thephoenix

I quite agree, you really don't get it.

The patient was elderly, the main carer was elderly themselves. Because of distance and work commitments, younger relatives couldn't do much to help, one even lived abroad.
Whatever your situation, there will be a lot of people far worse off, struggling much more, and far less able to cope, so I suggest you get off your high horse. You weren't there, I was!

Yes I get angry about comments like that.
I've experienced similar situation like yours, possibly even worse when the Alzheimer's changed a lovely old lady into a devious and dangerous old woman, who for month after month was in complete denial that anything was the matter.
Who managed to also convince her gp and social workers and other family too.

Who left the unlit gas oven on all night a few times.
Who almost caused fires by leaving food burning.
Who wouldn't take her medication.
Who regularly ate stale food, was bowell incontinent, and slept in soiled bedding with excreta on carpets.
Who would leave the house and become bewildered
Who never washed and who's clothes stank.
I could go on....

The only person available to care was her daughter who had her own family, and who herself was partly disabled and suffered with anxiety and depression, and lived some distance away.
The daughter who had always had a loving relationship with her mother now had to deal with a person who's personality had completely changed through Alzheimer's, and was now aggressive and uncooperative, and would accuse the daughter of just wanting to put her away.

Eventually after months of trying to cope, she was able to arrange a minimal care package.
Unfortunately the mother remained in denial and was aggressive towards the care staff on their minimal visits. They often couldn't get in and when they could weren't allowed to change bedding or wash the mother, so it was only the daughter able to attempt to do these tasks, often with great difficulty if at all.
Eventually it led to the daughter having a nervous breakdown and having to write to the gp and social services that she could no longer be responsible for her mother.

She still carried on visiting every day and doing what she could, but it was only a matter of time when things would come to a head.
This happened when the mother was found 20 miles away wandering in the dark in an area she didn't know, looking for a daughter who'd been dead for years. She'd left home with no money or pass, yet somehow convinced bus drivers, train guards and station staff that she'd forgotten her purse.
She'd been stopped by a couple who phoned the police, and she was subsequently sectioned.

It took many years for the daughter to try and come to terms with the feelings of guilt often made worse by magazine and newspaper articles saying how important it was to care for your parents and not 'farm them out' into a home.
After all, as the articles would often explain, it's not too difficult to look after the nice sweet old granny.
She might have dementia, but she's pretty cooperative and docile, not too much trouble, and there's plenty of room in our big house.

Yes every situation's different....sorry to rant and go off my original post, but I was also there.

Offline sir wanksalot

I agree with you here however I find myself at odds with my family on this, while I agree people should have to pay something towards their own care in later life I don't think it's either right or fair that someone who has been sensible and not pissed all their money away then has to use all their savings and sell their house to fund a shitty nursing home.
My family seem to be of the opinion that it's only right someone uses all their money to fund it.

I'm hearing of care home fees in the region of £750-£100 a week or £3000-£4000 a month which is an eye watering £50K a year.
When I point out you can get a hotel including food etc cheaper than this my family claim you are paying for all the "specialist" care you receive, from what i've seen old folks are plonked in a piss soaked chair and sit there most of the day doing fuck all with a TV blaring some shit like Emmerdale in the corner  :dash: Kill me now, Please  :scare:

Wasn't there an announcement recently about limiting how much you have to pay  :unknown: I know it's been mooted for years but I thought there was actually some action a couple of months back  :unknown:

The only "fairness" would be that EVERY resident has to pay but that doesn't happen. If someone has no savings and no assets they receive the same care as someone who has been sensible and frugal with their money.

Offline Marmalade

if I get ill and decline to the point where I don't feel that I have a good Quality of life then I intend to go at the time of my own choosing  :drinks:

And, out of curiosity, how exactly would you intend to do that?

I am guessing a slow dive from a high building or the ‘Marc Bolan option’ is not what you have in mind…

Offline Blackpool Rock

And, out of curiosity, how exactly would you intend to do that?

I am guessing a slow dive from a high building or the ‘Marc Bolan option’ is not what you have in mind…
Yes it is all somewhat "Theoretical" and as I previously said people aren't always in a position to actually control their own destiny, for example if you have had a severe stroke etc or if you're doped up on meds.

If you do however have the capability to control your own actions and destiny i'm also quite sure that actually completing the task won't be nearly as easy when it comes down to doing the deed.
A load of pills and a bottle of your favourite tipple is perhaps the best option  :unknown:
The other thing here that i'm aware of is that these things will always involve other people which isn't really fair on them but slipping away quietly is one thing whereas splattering yourself on a pavement while shoppers and children watch on is a totally different ball game  :scare:

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

A mate of mine (54 years old)  has had this discussion with his missus, should thmngs get that bad they already have a large bottle of Nitrogen gas that will flood their bedroom so they can go together if need be!!

Now of course they have some interlock system so they can't trigger a gas release by accident say during the throes of passion;!!..

Offline Marmalade

Yes it is all somewhat "Theoretical" and as I previously said people aren't always in a position to actually control their own destiny, for example if you have had a severe stroke etc or if you're doped up on meds.

If you do however have the capability to control your own actions and destiny i'm also quite sure that actually completing the task won't be nearly as easy when it comes down to doing the deed.
A load of pills and a bottle of your favourite tipple is perhaps the best option  :unknown:
The other thing here that i'm aware of is that these things will always involve other people which isn't really fair on them but slipping away quietly is one thing whereas splattering yourself on a pavement while shoppers and children watch on is a totally different ball game  :scare:

You’re aware I suppose that most readily available pills, including most prescription ones, might kill you but not reliably? I’ve looked through the literature and there’s about two or three books on the subject with varying degrees of detail. Watts’ comment looks theoretically feasible though the devil is indeed in the detail.

Offline Blackpool Rock

You’re aware I suppose that most readily available pills, including most prescription ones, might kill you but not reliably? I’ve looked through the literature and there’s about two or three books on the subject with varying degrees of detail. Watts’ comment looks theoretically feasible though the devil is indeed in the detail.
Can't say i've actually looked but yes I have thought that you'd have to do research to avoid simply having a long sleep then waking up again only to find out you will die a long drawn out and painful death over the next few weeks due to organ failure etc.

Hose pipe on the car exhaust won't even be an option as we will all be electric by then  :D

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

Can't say i've actually looked but yes I have thought that you'd have to do research to avoid simply having a long sleep then waking up again only to find out you will die a long drawn out and painful death over the next few weeks due to organ failure etc.

Hose pipe on the car exhaust won't even be an option as we will all be electric by then  :D

Well intense mainly Nitrogen and sod all Oxygen ain't healthfull to life, peeps have died where Nitrogen has been leaking as we know 4/5ths of air is Nitrogen anyway!

Offline Marmalade

Hose pipe on the car exhaust won't even be an option as we will all be electric by then  :D
Don’t think that has been an option since advent of catalytic converters has it?

Offline Thephoenix

I'd forgotten how long it was since I started this topic back in 2021.
There's so many interesting and valuable contributions to the debate until it rather got sidetracked.

That's why I wanted to resurrect the original debate rather than start a new one.

It's back in the news again with the introduction of a private member's bill in Tynwald I.O.M.

It's a complex argument of principles, ethics, legalities, practicalities etc.

However, as I'm getting on a bit and probably classed as borderline decrepit the thought of dying enters my thoughts more often.
I'm not afraid of dying. I just don't want to be there when it happens. :rolleyes:

A number of my ailments will get worse.
I don't want to end up like some of the elderly relatives I described earlier in the thread.

So as I'm of sound mind.... (that's possibly debatable on here), I pose the following question:

If at some stage I am suffering from a terminal illness, incapacitated, in considerable pain and facing a gruesome death, and I decide to take my own life, what business is that of anyone else, be they politicians, religious leaders or whoever?

As long as sufficient safeguards are followed, including assessment by doctors and a high court judge, and I administer the drug myself which is provided by a health care provider who supports the scheme.

Offline timsussex

My wife had a nasty terminal cancer and was on Morphine adminstered by an IV machine at home under care of a hospice (3/4 of that hospice patients were at home) She was initially on 60 which meant nothing to me so I asked the consultant what they would go up to - the answer was whatever it takes to alleviate the pain. Without saying so that would include a fatal dose. She was eventually moved up to 120 but they had patients on 600.

Eventually she was allowed to starve to death - very peacefully with painkillers and appetite suppressants but essentially she starved to death 

YOU WOULDN'T DO THAT TO A DOG !

Offline Thephoenix

It's not about shortening life.
It's about shortening death.

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Online daviemac

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It's not about shortening life.
It's about shortening death.

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What's in the news now is about what is going on in the Isle of Man, it has nothing to do with the UK.   :unknown:

It's already legal in the likes of Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, USA, Belgium, France, Japan and Australia but no sign of the UK legalising it.

Offline Blackpool Rock

My wife had a nasty terminal cancer and was on Morphine adminstered by an IV machine at home under care of a hospice (3/4 of that hospice patients were at home) She was initially on 60 which meant nothing to me so I asked the consultant what they would go up to - the answer was whatever it takes to alleviate the pain. Without saying so that would include a fatal dose. She was eventually moved up to 120 but they had patients on 600.

Eventually she was allowed to starve to death - very peacefully with painkillers and appetite suppressants but essentially she starved to death 

YOU WOULDN'T DO THAT TO A DOG !

I had to watch my Mum die slowly in hospital in a similar way, she knew what was happening to her and did say at one point "You wouldn't treat a dog like this"
The lack of food is one thing but it's the lack of water / fluid that gets me, we all know how horrible it is when you keep waking up through the night with a dry mouth but imagine dying of dehydration for days on end  :thumbsdown:

IMO the way I saw my Mum die was fucking Barbaric  :mad:

Online lostandfound

I dunno - my mum died of cancer in a hospice. Some odd things - she was on a morphine drip but hardly used it - her doctor felt she was being stoic for no good reason - just increasing her pain. We were told off for feeding her - mainly just fruit juice - as it was keeping her alive. She passed peacefully with family around her in beautiful surroundings.

American relatives who were present having flown over, contrasted this with a friend who had died of cancer, in the US, and was kept alive for many months confined to a hospital bed with increasingly elaborate treatment. They felt the approach they saw over here was much more humane, and regretted they knew of nothing like the hospice system in the USA.


Offline JontyR

Horses for courses. And the argument is that people will feel like they have to acquiesce and let go prematurely.

My feelings on this have changed over the years. Once I felt so sure about preserving life. Now I cannot see who wins from someone who's body can barely can support their life being made to live on till they starve / suffocate / drown.

I've seen the impacts of dementia and of debilitating progressive conditions like MND and Parkinsons. Touch wood I never fall foul of any of these conditions, but if I did? I certainly have not worked hard to provide for others just to see it blow away in a couple of years of care fees to keep me having a piss poor quality of life.

Let's have a nice luxury hotel environment. Pop a canula in. Let's let the family in for a couple of days.  A bit of nice food and an activity. The connect up a drip and let me go and have a massage with a skilled practitioner. Let my mind empty of worry, let my body relax, let me drift off and then up whatever dosage is required to finish the job.

Offline timsussex

Those of us who have a good hospice nearby are incredibly lucky
These places are the best thing about medical care in the UK - I was going to say NHS but of course most (?all?) arent part of the NHS - and it shows
The contrast between dying in one of them and under NHS care is incredible.

oh and a shoutout for MacMillan nurses as well they provide outstanding service in the most difficult situation any of us will ever be in
 

Offline jackdaw

I’d very much like to see well worded legislation permitting euthanasia in UK.

I think one of main advantages is that it would remove one of the great fears in life: being in constant pain, becoming unable to look after oneself, and becoming a burden for others to shoulder.

By removing that fear it would not just help people who actually ended up using the option, but improve the life of many people ultimately finding they didn’t need it.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 01:26:04 pm by jackdaw »

Offline scutty brown

You can't safely discuss assisted dying until we have the budget and facilities for assisted living sorted out.
Too many people seem to think of them as alternatives when in fact one should be the natural progression of the other.

Offline jackdaw

You can't safely discuss assisted dying until we have the budget and facilities for assisted living sorted out.
Too many people seem to think of them as alternatives when in fact one should be the natural progression of the other.

I’m extremely sceptical of the line “don’t worry the doctors can always make you comfortable”. I don’t think it would be true even if we could afford to throw unlimited resources at end of life care.

And it’s certainly not true in the real world.

Offline RedKettle

Those of us who have a good hospice nearby are incredibly lucky
These places are the best thing about medical care in the UK - I was going to say NHS but of course most (?all?) arent part of the NHS - and it shows
The contrast between dying in one of them and under NHS care is incredible.

oh and a shoutout for MacMillan nurses as well they provide outstanding service in the most difficult situation any of us will ever be in

Agree with much of this, especially about MacMillan nurses who are fantastic.  The hospice my close relative was in was part of the NHS, although I think only a lot of fundraising kept it viable.

Offline Thephoenix

What's in the news now is about what is going on in the Isle of Man, it has nothing to do with the UK.   :unknown:

It's already legal in the likes of Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, USA, Belgium, France, Japan and Australia but no sign of the UK legalising it.

I resurrected my original thread because the issue has been highlighted in the media again, with the discussions taking places in I.O.M. and also in Jersey.

I was interested in how folk would answer the question I posed in # 75.

I believe there's a groundswell of public opinion in this country in favour of assisted dying, possibly as a result of the campaigns by 'Dignity in Dying' (link on # 75), and high profile figures like Esther Rantzen and former Archbishop of  Canterbury George Carey who argued that the sanctity of life does not mean believing in the sanctity of suffering, or disregarding steps to avoid it.

There's overwhelming public support for assisted-dying in UK.

A poll by Dignity in Dying showed that 75% of respondents said they would support making it lawful for someone to seek assisted-dying in the UK, with only 14% against..

The discussions in Jersey have reached a key stage.
What was interesting, and I.M.O. should be the way forward here, is that the initial inquiry was instigated by a citizen's jury, and their report and recommendations were accepted in principle by States assembly.

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Offline scutty brown

I’m extremely sceptical of the line “don’t worry the doctors can always make you comfortable”. I don’t think it would be true even if we could afford to throw unlimited resources at end of life care.

And it’s certainly not true in the real world.

I'm reminded of when my mother was dying, she was in agony for days. GPs and nurses came into the home, gave injections, no real effect. She even asked me to smother her. I should have done, but was too chicken to do it. One day a different community matron came in, took one look at her, said "this isn't fair" and gave her an injection. 30 minutes she was dead. Only thought I had was "thank you for that". She'd used some kind of combination of morphia/barbiturates which in mum's weakened state could only have one result. The other medics were too scared/controlled/reluctant to do it.
Welcome release. The problem is, where's the dividing line between what she did and what Harold Shipman did? What's the point at which it's justified? I don't have an answer, and anyone who says they do is a liar

Offline Thephoenix


Welcome release. The problem is, where's the dividing line between what she did and what Harold Shipman did? What's the point at which it's justified? I don't have an answer, and anyone who says they do is a liar

What about my question on #75 which is what I'm trying to get at?

Offline scutty brown

What about my question on #75 which is what I'm trying to get at?

In principle it's no-one else's business.
The problem as I see it is that if your living conditions are so poor as for you to want to go down that route, it's quite likely that by the time you've made the decision it'll be too late for you to press the buttons yourself. You'd need to do it while you were still fit enough to live..........catch-22

Offline timsussex

the Hospice consultant was clear at the outset that they would do whatever it took to alleviate any pain and if that needed a life threatening dosage then it would be provided

note the wording :- the dosage was not intended to be lethal it was intended to alleviate any pain but that death might be a side effect

It is of course unlawful to kill someone but all medicine has side effects including lethal ones

Offline WASA38

A mate of mine (54 years old)  has had this discussion with his missus, should thmngs get that bad they already have a large bottle of Nitrogen gas that will flood their bedroom so they can go together if need be!!

Now of course they have some interlock system so they can't trigger a gas release by accident say during the throes of passion;!!..

From Wiki.:
'A typical cylinder, about 5′ tall, can hold about 230 cubic feet of nitrogen gas'.

A typical bedroom might be 12 x 12 x 8 ft, ie 1152 cub ft, so your mate would surely survive suffering minor if any ill effect, particularly as , being slightly lighter than air, the gas will tend to drift up towards the ceiling.

A woman of my acquaintance, living alone and afflicted with terminal cancer, simply wrote a note, sent it to a neighbour and then lay on the bed with a bag over her head , lost consciousness and died due to asphyxiation . Simple and, I hopefully imagine, it wouldn't have caused her much distress although obviously that cannot be known.

No need for gas cylinders, tablets or trips to Switzerland.

Sounds easy. I just hope I may never need to put this technique to the test.

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

FWIW i had a relative in hospital on the Liverpool pathway to end of life the poor old sod was starved to death and water even was banned.

A new to the job young nurse took pity on his man gave him some water and a little somthing to eat they said the poor man looked so happy afterwards! She got a bit of a bollocking but the poor old boy died in his slep one night a week or so later, there was a barney between the hosptal andf his near relatives who thought i was cruel to not let him have food and water even in very small quanities!

Mind you two of our lot have s done away with themselves in rather dramatic ways..

It is very awkward subject and needs a lot of debate. Meanwhile here in Cambridge we have a lot of very clever people beavering away to try to get cures for Cancer and other life limiting illnesses they did have a hand in this new target teratment to see off Brain tumors, been better then they ever hoped for results..

Course not everyone dies of that sort, quite a few younger people do mate of mine his poor stricken wife went at 34 years old:(.. 

Offline Thecunninglinguist

There was a program on the BBC Tuesday evening that is well worth a watch on I Player. "Better Off Dead", presented by the actress, Liz  Carr, who was Clarissa in Silent Witness for many years. It centred on people who suffered lifelong but not necessarily life shortening conditions, many with mobility and breathing issues. It was centred on the possibility that people could be coerced into ending their lives without sufficient safeguards and the difficulty in setting those. In one part she visited Canada and looked at the MAID project there, which is the legal route to assisted dying. It was frankly appalling, allowing people with even quite mild mental illness or depression to avail themselves of the service. Last year 13000 chose to die that way.
I am basically in favour of some sort of choice but this program demonstrates just how hard it would be to ensure everyone was protected. Even the ex Lord Chief Justice piloting the possible bill was not sure this was possible no matter how hard they tried.

Online daviemac

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I resurrected my original thread because the issue has been highlighted in the media again, with the discussions taking places in I.O.M. and also in Jersey.
Yes but my point is whatever goes on in the IOM or Jersey for that matter has nothing to do with us, they are self governing Crown Dependencies and not part of the United Kingdom, They make their own laws.

As an example the UK abolished birching in 1948 but Jersey continued using it until the mid 60's and IoM until 1976.

Offline jackdaw

I'm reminded of when my mother was dying, she was in agony for days. GPs and nurses came into the home, gave injections, no real effect. She even asked me to smother her. I should have done, but was too chicken to do it. One day a different community matron came in, took one look at her, said "this isn't fair" and gave her an injection. 30 minutes she was dead. Only thought I had was "thank you for that". She'd used some kind of combination of morphia/barbiturates which in mum's weakened state could only have one result. The other medics were too scared/controlled/reluctant to do it.
Welcome release. The problem is, where's the dividing line between what she did and what Harold Shipman did? What's the point at which it's justified? I don't have an answer, and anyone who says they do is a liar

I think there were a fair few differences between what that nurse did, and what Harold Shipman did. A lot of his victims were actually in reasonable health, in no real pain, and could have (in other circumstances) have lived for years. There’s also the point..of course..that he had persuaded several of his victims to put him in their wills, so was benefiting monetarily.

But…if you asked me for the clear dividing line (one side it’s the right decision, the other side the wrong decision) I couldn’t tell you. I agree with you wholeheartedly thats it’s an incredibly complex area, a moral minefield.

But so often when some one proposes radical change we look at the proposed change, and argue against it because it won’t be perfect, that there will be some abuse of the new system.

I don’t think that’s the right approach, it’s better to ask: “on balance will this change improve life for most people”. Looking at things that happen now, I think improvement is possible in this area.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 06:33:38 pm by jackdaw »

Offline Thephoenix



But so often when some one proposes radical change we look at the proposed change, and argue against it because it won’t be perfect, that there will be some abuse of the new system.

I don’t think that’s the right approach, it’s better to ask: “on balance will this change improve life for most people”. Looking at things that happen now, I think improvement is possible in this area.

That's why I thought the Jersey approach of using a citizen's jury to make the initial recommendations was a novel approach.
Link above.

Offline stampjones

My view is somewhat more radical. If someone can show themselves to be of sound mind (in the sense that they are capable of making their own decisions) they should be able to get assistance in ending their own life with dignity regardless of any medical condition. The options available to someone wanting to do that are more likely to permanently injure you than be effective. But if someone genuinely wants to end their own life and there are people willing to help why should the government try and stand in the way. Personally I have no desire to end my life right now nor have I ever had, but I can certainly imagine a point when I’d want to. I have no desire to live as an old man. Maybe that will change when it comes around but I doubt it and if I feel the same I’d like the option to pull the plug in a “safe” manner without having to risk fucking it up somehow and making more work and more stress for everyone involved. I dont really see why the government (or society) pretends to have the right to say you must live on regardless. 

Offline Blackpool Rock

My view is somewhat more radical. If someone can show themselves to be of sound mind (in the sense that they are capable of making their own decisions) they should be able to get assistance in ending their own life with dignity regardless of any medical condition. The options available to someone wanting to do that are more likely to permanently injure you than be effective. But if someone genuinely wants to end their own life and there are people willing to help why should the government try and stand in the way. Personally I have no desire to end my life right now nor have I ever had, but I can certainly imagine a point when I’d want to. I have no desire to live as an old man. Maybe that will change when it comes around but I doubt it and if I feel the same I’d like the option to pull the plug in a “safe” manner without having to risk fucking it up somehow and making more work and more stress for everyone involved. I dont really see why the government (or society) pretends to have the right to say you must live on regardless.
Yes and i'd say it does very much depend on personal circumstances and whether or not you have children etc who have to deal with your actions once you are gone.

I have no wish to die at present however I also have no wish to live in old age not being able to get out and about and enjoy the countryside / nature etc.
The thought of being sat indoors all day long with no visitors and struggling to wipe my own arse doesn't exactly fill me with joy  :thumbsdown:

By the time I get to that age my expectation is that I won't have any family left or certainly no family who are capable of visiting me and the 2 or 3 who are frankly won't bother anyway so WTF

The other alternative is to die and 6 months later get found when someone complains about the smell coming from the house and they find your body crawling with maggots, great prospect eh  :drinks: