Writing punting off as a business expense

[mcb]

Just wondered if any self-employed folk had written off punting whilst away as a “business expense” and if so, how did you do it, i.e. what did you list it as?

[squeezebox]

Just wondered if any self-employed folk had written off punting whilst away as a “business expense” and if so, how did you do it, i.e. what did you list it as?

Try training and development. Budget for 5% of turnover a year.

External Link/Members Only

You'll end up with more than "tax relief"   

[mattylondon]

Just wondered if any self-employed folk had written off punting whilst away as a “business expense” and if so, how did you do it, i.e. what did you list it as?

I should imagine that it could be written off as an entertainment expense. How regularly one could do that is open to question and may depend on whether receipts are required.

Your hotel bill could certainly be written off if one could prove being in the area on genuine business I guess?

[Bushmills]

When you say 'business expense' I assume you mean tax-deductable for self-employed / company you are a Director of?

Hotel - no problem.

The WG as 'entertaining' - if it's possible to tax deduct entertaining.

According to my accountant...
"Travel and subsistence" is OK
"Entertaining" is not - it can be put down as an expense but apparently no tax relief

[Horizontal pleasures]

surely you will need receipts?

[rolf32313]

Obvious question, when is the last time an Escort gave you a VAT receipt for your records? It's difficult to expense without one but you could make up a dodgy taxi receipt for the same amount...

[Horizontal pleasures]

And how about the receipt from the Doctor Today who does private GUM work?

Or the hazard of meeting your accountant coming out of the parlour while you are going in?

[yorkshire123]

I don't bother even trying to, accommodation, mileage & meals are already accounted for during my travels. The cost of the prossie comes out of my pocket as its just not worth playing games with the tax man. If he gets you in his sights your in for a world of pain for a few years to come.

[password02]

I don't bother even trying to, accommodation, mileage & meals are already accounted for during my travels. The cost of the prossie comes out of my pocket as its just not worth playing games with the tax man. If he gets you in his sights your in for a world of pain for a few years to come.

+1 Really not worth the extra headache 

[potato]

I've often thought that a girl with a brain in her head could market herself to appeal to business owners in various ways - presuming that she was correctly registered and paying tax etc.,, ( that cuts out the majority probably..) At least to offset some of the costs.

For instance, an incall overnight receipt as a B&B.evening meal so long as it is not on your doorstep..  though you could be entertaining clients and be picking up the bill for all of them locally when it wouldn't be safe to drive through drink..

You could employ one as a self employed Personal Assistant / secretarial services to tidy up all those loose ends once a month..

Sub contract office cleaning service or employ her as a cleaner is another possibility.

I don't think the HRMC would take too kindly to false / fraudulent receipts but there is probably a grey area that could be taken advantage of.

I have employed one reg girl on a couple of short term contracts which was actually a lot of fun. As well as being efficient at the relatively simple assembly work she had to do there were no issues with sexual harassment in the work place - and there was plenty of that! and plenty of overtime as a result 

[Bushmills]

I don't bother even trying to, accommodation, mileage & meals are already accounted for during my travels. The cost of the prossie comes out of my pocket as its just not worth playing games with the tax man. If he gets you in his sights your in for a world of pain for a few years to come.

I agree entirely - the above is how I do things myself.

I've seen a couple of AW girls offering a receipt for 'consultancy work' etc  but unless you're being creative (and I must acknowledge that ellwoodpdowd offers some opportunities for creative thinking above) I don't think it's worth it.

There are of course a few girls who have some BS in their profile about their rates being high because they pay tax and NI on their pro$$ie earnings, but I don't believe any of them for a moment.

[smiths]

I've often thought that a girl with a brain in her head could market herself to appeal to business owners in various ways - presuming that she was correctly registered and paying tax etc.,, ( that cuts out the majority probably..) At least to offset some of the costs.

For instance, an incall overnight receipt as a B&B.evening meal so long as it is not on your doorstep..  though you could be entertaining clients and be picking up the bill for all of them locally when it wouldn't be safe to drive through drink..

You could employ one as a self employed Personal Assistant / secretarial services to tidy up all those loose ends once a month..

Sub contract office cleaning service or employ her as a cleaner is another possibility.

I don't think the HRMC would take too kindly to false / fraudulent receipts but there is probably a grey area that could be taken advantage of.

I have employed one reg girl on a couple of short term contracts which was actually a lot of fun. As well as being efficient at the relatively simple assembly work she had to do there were no issues with sexual harassment in the work place - and there was plenty of that! and plenty of overtime as a result 

Problem for me with employing a WG on the books is they would then know my real name at the very least, possibly also a work address. Not something i would risk irrespective of how small that risk might be.

[jcdmj12]

Nope. It is tax fraud. Hmrc would love to catch you as they will be able to get into the papers with a story like that. Also if the girl is in on it you are opening yourself up to blackmail.

There are plenty of things you can do to minimise your tax bill without exposing yourself to silly risks like that.  Mileage, food and hotel bills though, certainly.

[smiths]

Nope. It is tax fraud. Hmrc would love to catch you as they will be able to get into the papers with a story like that. Also if the girl is in on it you are opening yourself up to blackmail.

There are plenty of things you can do to minimise your tax bill without exposing yourself to silly risks like that.  Mileage, food and hotel bills though, certainly.

Spot on.

[Jimmyredcab]

Just wondered if any self-employed folk had written off punting whilst away as a “business expense” and if so, how did you do it, i.e. what did you list it as?

I can only assume this is a joke.     

Even if the pro$$ie issued you with a receipt ------------ which is highly unlikely, it would still not be a legitimate business expense. 

[CoolTiger]

I can only assume this is a joke.     

Even if the pro$$ie issued you with a receipt ------------ which is highly unlikely, it would still not be a legitimate business expense. 

Indeed. The test HMRC use consists of 3 words...... WHOLLY, EXCLUSIVELY and NECESSARILY for the performance of your duty as a sole trader, or as an employee.

whilst you could put thew expense through your business accounts, for tax purposes, ALL 3 categories need to be satisfied, in order for the expense to be allowed as a deduction for tax purpose. 

[Jimmyredcab]

Indeed. The test HMRC use consists of 3 words...... WHOLLY, EXCLUSIVELY and NECESSARILY for the performance of your duty as a sole trader, or as an employee.

This could also lead to an investigation by HMRC into ALL of your expenses.

[CatBBW]

This will also lead to an investigation by HMRC into ALL of your expenses.

Corrected that for you. If HMRC gets any type of funny smell from a SE person or business's tax returns, they WILL investigate fully.

[mcb]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

[potato]

I wonder how many MP's claimed expenses for their nocturnal activities?  Apparently Duck ponds, porn films and dog food, to name but a few, are considered essential to some employee's?  - from people that are supposed to be running the country..

I certainly do not advocate defrauding the HRMC but if you employed a person legitimately and paid above the going rate for that job, that's your business, the fact you got to shag her once a month could happen anyway so how would you differentiate that from a normal employee. Surely how you deploy an employee in your business is your domain not anyone else's.

I have seen a few girls advertise "nude cleaning services" - surely that would be an allowable expense so long as she got into all the corners properley 

Perhaps this discussion should be dumped in Off Topic anyway.

[ArtVandalay]

Are you wanting to write it off as a business expense to evade the tax man or your wife?

[CoolTiger]

Are you wanting to write it off as a business expense to evade the tax man or your wife?

What's the difference??

Most married blokes pay more to their OH than to the tax man!! 

[ArtVandalay]

From an accounting point of view they are quite different.
Avoiding the tax man is fraud
Avoiding the wife simply requires extracting cash from the company which isn't declared as pay or dividends

[rolf32313]

From an accounting point of view they are quite different.
Avoiding the tax man is fraud
Avoiding the wife simply requires extracting cash from the company which isn't declared as pay or dividends

A minor point, Tax avoidance is legal, tax evasion is illegal!

[CoolTiger]

From an accounting point of view they are quite different.
Avoiding the tax man is fraud
Avoiding the wife simply requires extracting cash from the company which isn't declared as pay or dividends

I may be missing something.... What other way can you extract cash from a business which isn't declared as pay or dividends?

AFAI can see, you'd be defrauding, since all the above posts have established that you cannot put through payments to Escorts/WGs as a genuine Business expense!!

[ArtVandalay]

If you have to travel a lot then expenses can be paid for out of your own pocket or direct from the company account.
If you travel a lot then those expenses soon add up and it's quite easy to explain away cash withdrawals to the Mrs as being required for taxis, meals etc whilst paying some of them on the company card and keeping the cash.

You can also withdraw cash direct from the company and declare it as a directors loan, expense claims can be allocated against this or just pay back from your personal account , you can explain it to the Mrs as overdrawn dividends being paid back

Apologies for any bad English, typing this out on a mobile

[CoolTiger]

If you have to travel a lot then expenses can be paid for out of your own pocket or direct from the company account.
If you travel a lot then those expenses soon add up and it's quite easy to explain away cash withdrawals to the Mrs as being required for taxis, meals etc whilst paying some of them on the company card and keeping the cash.

You can also withdraw cash direct from the company and declare it as a directors loan, expense claims can be allocated against this or just pay back from your personal account , you can explain it to the Mrs as overdrawn dividends being paid back

Apologies for any bad English, typing this out on a mobile

Most of what you quote above is for genuine expenses anyway. I know a fellow punter who claims all his genuine mileage expenses and gets this paid in cash, thereby builds up his punting fund (having taken out the fuel cost element out). This a legitimate business expense claim, which he does not wish for his wife to see that income.

Taking out loads of cash withdrawals from personal account will only mask and hide from your OH the cash that you then set aside for punting purposes. You should only be able to legitimately claim  back what you have spent on traveling, subsistence etc. so the excess cash drawn form the personal account will enable you to have your punts, but they should not be expenses that you can claim back.

Cash withdrawn from company and declared as director's loan..... again, this is a short term cash extraction that you could use for punting purposes, but you are kidding yourself, as ultimately you will end up paying for it form your pocket, when the overdrawn loan account has to be cleared by either a salary or a dividend. 

AFAI can see, in your above suggestion, you are merely clouding the issue so that your OH is not able to follow all the (large) withdrawals, but this should be separated from making legitimate claims for business expenses incurred when traveling round the country.

[ArtVandalay]

Which is exactly why I was asking if the expense claim was for tax or wife reasons

[Argento79]

Have never considered listing it as an expense.  Would leave it alone to be honest.  However, you are much less likely to be investigated these days as they just don't have the staff to chase smaller amounts.  It's not cost effective.

[touch.and.go]

Have never considered listing it as an expense.  Would leave it alone to be honest.  However, you are much less likely to be investigated these days as they just don't have the staff to chase smaller amounts.  It's not cost effective.

"Wholly and necessarily for the purposes of business" - so should be fine 

[rolf32313]

I think if HMRC pull you in over it you could just say you were pitching a big deal and a bundle of nerves. An hour punt settled your nerves and if it weren't for the fact you stupidly extended her and missed the meeting you would have got the deal

[smiths]

I think if HMRC pull you in over it you could just say you were pitching a big deal and a bundle of nerves. An hour punt settled your nerves and if it weren't for the fact you stupidly extended her and missed the meeting you would have got the deal

In which case they might ask for information on that big deal and who it was with to substantiate what you tell them. They arent necessarily just going to take your word for it. I certainly wouldnt risk it.

[touch.and.go]

In which case they might ask for information on that big deal and who it was with to substantiate what you tell them. They arent necessarily just going to take your word for it. I certainly wouldnt risk it.

This is a joke isn't it - the WGs I've seen dont issue receipts - and if they did, the receipts would be covered in make-up, lube and baby-wipe juice. I dont think I'd get that past the FD. 

[rolf32313]

This is a joke isn't it - the WGs I've seen dont issue receipts - and if they did, the receipts would be covered in make-up, lube and baby-wipe juice. I dont think I'd get that past the FD. 

I was certainly joking. Come on, WTF wants there accountant to know they have a bag/month prostitute problem!

[smiths]

This is a joke isn't it - the WGs I've seen dont issue receipts - and if they did, the receipts would be covered in make-up, lube and baby-wipe juice. I dont think I'd get that past the FD. 

I dont get you, if you read the post i replied to i replied to Rolfs point about telling HMRC there was  a big deal on the go. Nothing about WGs giving receipts.

[threechilliman]

This is a joke isn't it - the WGs I've seen dont issue receipts - and if they did, the receipts would be covered in make-up, lube and baby-wipe juice. I dont think I'd get that past the FD. 

Ooooh, I don't know......

tcm

[smiths]

I was certainly joking. Come on, WTF wants there accountant to know they have a bag/month prostitute problem!

 What does a bag/month mean?

[rolf32313]

What does a bag/month mean?

Bag of sand.. A grand. £1,000

[smiths]

Bag of sand.. A grand. £1,000

Thanks.

[potato]

There are a couple of accountants registered on AW if you do a search on Other services and accountant, maybe we should ask him what is acceptable.

Of course its not acceptable in reality, the same way its not acceptable to buy something on the company for private use without declaring it on your PIID and paying tax on it.

A lot of local governments seem to get away with it though - they tend to engage lots of "consultants" who fuck them and get away with it!

[threechilliman]

There are a couple of accountants registered on AW if you do a search on Other services and accountant, maybe we should ask him what is acceptable.

Of course its not acceptable in reality, the same way its not acceptable to buy something on the company for private use without declaring it on your PIID and paying tax on it.

A lot of local governments seem to get away with it though - they tend to engage lots of "consultants" who fuck them and get away with it!

I'll bet there's more than a couple, though most will be service users....

tcm

[CoolTiger]

There are a couple of accountants registered on AW if you do a search on Other services and accountant, maybe we should ask him what is acceptable.

Of course its not acceptable in reality, the same way its not acceptable to buy something on the company for private use without declaring it on your PIID and paying tax on it.

A lot of local governments seem to get away with it though - they tend to engage lots of "consultants" who fuck them and get away with it!

They may be registered there, but are they properly qualified? are they a member of any professional body, such as ACCA, ICAEW.

I have spoken to one girl from AW, who enquired from these guys. One was a husband and wife (possible WG) operation, wanting £100.00 per month Standing Order set up from outset, cos understandably they are aware of how unreliable payments or tax info from the WG would be.  When she mentioned that figure to me, I was staggered as to why it would cost £1,200.00 for a WG to have her tax return done for her.
She went through yellow pages and selected a proper, registered, qualified accountant and agreed a fee of £400.00 + VAT, provided she had all her records in order, and would deliver all the information to the accountant by an agreed deadline (in other words, if she was organised and did not leave things to last minute she would not be charged more than that). As part of the consultancy, he even gave her help in how to prepare her records, keeping diaries, etc.

[PatMacGroin]

Sorry to re-open this old thread. But it includes alot of relevant comments and I'm wondering how much, if at all, attitudes have changed since 6 years ago. It could help settle an argument which has re-opened on another review thread.

Can anyone here on UKP confirm that they have ever tried to claim a punt as a business expense?

Maybe fabricated a receipt to cover cash spent on a WG, in their self assessment or company returns?

Or, used a company credit card as an employee to directly pay a WG, or maybe to withdraw the cash to pay a WG?

Or are there other ways some of you smart guys have come up with?

Personally, I think it would be extremely difficult to pull off and far to risky to be worth it. But I hear tall tales that loads of people are doing it all the time. This little straw poll might reveal how common it really is. It's an anonymous forum so I think we can talk openly without anyone having to worry about incriminating themselves, it's just a discussion after all.

[Gordon Bennett]

Loads of people are not doing it all the time. It's completely ridiculous and as ludicrous as trying to claim relief for gambling, Netflix and an Accrington Stanley season-ticket. Anyone saying they do it is almost certainly a fantasist and one of those dull sorts of blokes who constantly spouts drivel in order to appear a bit more thrusting and edgy.
The economy is in the shitter, the concept of getting taxpayers to fund/contribute visits to prostitutes is just scummy in the extreme even if some oily accountant has contrived a way of sneaking it past HMIT.

[Adoniron]

Frankly I have never considered it and am surprised anyone has. Why would anyone wish to bring scrutiny on this part of their life with the aim of saving a few quid?

[scutty brown]

At one  chemical company I worked at it wasn't unusual for visits to the Amsterdam Banana Bar or the Paris Crazy Horse show or Windmill to be treated as entertainment expenses, sometimes with Japanese customers in tow, sometimes not.

[davidgood]

At one  chemical company I worked at it wasn't unusual for visits to the Amsterdam Banana Bar or the Paris Crazy Horse show or Windmill to be treated as entertainment expenses, sometimes with Japanese customers in tow, sometimes not.

Although I have not been in the position where I was entertaining customers like this, I have been on the receiving end.  At least a couple of times I have been taken to lap dancing bars and been given a voucher or two for dances and unlimited drinks. I am sure the cost would have been claimed back as a business expense by the people I was with.

The nearest I have got to using business expenses to finance punting is when I have claimed mileage for lengthy journeys to see girls or attend clubs and parties around the Country.

Regards,

davidgood

[RedKettle]

Worth saying, I think, that there are a couple related issues here.  The first is whether you can claim as an expense through the business.  That is an issue for the business and entirely up to them whether they believe it is OK.  However I would be amazed if any reputable business allowed it other than at the margins by calling for example a night out at a lap dancing club as entertaining.

The next issue is if they are allowed by the business whether they claim tax relief on them.  It would not be allowed as entertaining but would be as benefit in kind for employee, but in that case you would be taxed on the cost!

Of course in reality where people do claim them they will call them something else - that is fraud and whilst they may say in the golf club that the business is paying hookers they are very much at risk!!

[JimmySW]

Took some Indonesians who were working for me to a Malaysian knocking shop and got a receipt for dinner from the madam! All claimed and paid up!

[alpharius]

Never directly. I'm PAYE so the most I do is charge for a hotel I didn't use (and do a cancellation on the hotel). Not normally even to see a WG. Sometimes I'm in range of staying with one of my cousins or uni mates, especially in London. Never found a good way to fake a meal receipt believably, besides, I'm a fat ass, if work is gonna give me a food budget, I'm gonna use it

Wouldn't dream of trying to self assess tax claims with punting expenses, apart from the aforementioned hotels.

I've heard tales from dad when he was a Director of some security firm he'd have a credit card with 5k budget to spend on hotels, food, drinks, golf, concerts and yes, lap dance clubs, no questions asked especially for international clients (the deals were in the 7 to 8 figure mark, 5k is pocket change)