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Author Topic: Romanian Prostitution in the UK (Sunday Times, 8 August)  (Read 2709 times)

Offline Vice Admiral

This is an extract from an illuminating article in this week’s Sunday Times colour supplement entitled “Modern slavery: shocking stories from the front line of human trafficking”.

Pages from a ledger bear witness to the profitability of modern slavery, even when those being exploited refuse to bear witness in person. I am shown some recovered from a brothel in west London — one of ten set up by a Romanian OCG [organised crime group] — and they are a record of one day’s business for the five women working there.

The first transaction of the shift is recorded at 3.30pm. It is a payment of £50 to the OCG for sex with a named woman — we shall call her Worker No 1 — and, according to Detective Sergeant Jon Knox, who is engaged in trying to convict the women’s traffickers, this will cover the cost of 15 minutes of intercourse. Each visit is logged and timed, and the amount of cash paid by the client faithfully written down next to the names of Workers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. There are 28 encounters in all, with the last one timed at 7.35am the next day. The most common payment is £100, which is for anal sex.

The total income for the evening is £2,775, of which the women are paid £595 between them. This comes after charging them for accommodation, food, “security” and even condoms. One of the women was involved in nine of the transactions, including six for anal sex. She was paid £135.

“The pages give you some idea of the extent to which these women are being exploited and abused, and the amounts of money being made by the OCGs,” Knox says. “This one was running 40 to 50 girls at a time and we believe they were making up to £5 million a year from the operation.”

The women’s services are usually advertised on legal adult sex websites such as Vivastreet and Adultwork. The cost of the advertising is deducted from their wages. At the time of writing, 3,842 sex workers were advertising on Adultwork in London, and that is just one of several similar sites. Not all the sex workers are being exploited by criminal gangs, but detectives believe a large proportion are.

“The women are usually from very poor communities, they are poorly educated and have very few prospects at home,” Knox says. “I’ve visited places in rural Romania where many of these women come from, and their living conditions are terrible. Poverty is rife. They live in breeze-block homes with corrugated iron roofs, wells for water and poor sanitation.

“So to be offered work here — even sex work — where they can earn £25,000 to £30,000 a year, means they can send money home to their children and wider family. Most of their money is taken from them by the OCG, and they often still can’t see how much they’re being exploited because, to them, the money’s good.”

If a sex worker had ten clients a day — not unusual — each paying an average of £70, then that woman would be worth about £220,000 a year to an OCG, less the money the group paid her after deductions. This, if she works just six days a week — most women are expected to work seven.

“It’s all about money, greed and exploitation,” Knox says. “The women may come into it with their eyes open to some extent, but they will have no idea of the sheer amount of abuse they will be subjected to. They have no idea of the horrible world they’re entering.”

Offline Taggart

That extract makes awful reading. Good reasons why as punters, we should boycott all Roms to avoid encouraging this exploitation?
Also avoids the disappointment of a shit service.

Time to punt with a conscience?


Offline bedhedred

Boycott all Roms. Yeah right.

Offline Tdk84

That extract makes awful reading. Good reasons why as punters, we should boycott all Roms to avoid encouraging this exploitation?
Also avoids the disappointment of a shit service.

Time to punt with a conscience?

Got to agree, quite shocking.

Offline Lou2019

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That extract makes awful reading. Good reasons why as punters, we should boycott all Roms to avoid encouraging this exploitation?
Also avoids the disappointment of a shit service.

Time to punt with a conscience?

any nationality could be subjected to being trafficked :unknown:

Offline Strawberry

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any nationality could be subjected to being trafficked :unknown:

Exactly my thoughts, and unfair on the independent Romanians.

Offline tynetunnel

any nationality could be subjected to being trafficked :unknown:

Exactly my thoughts, and unfair on the independent Romanians.

True but with their well known poor service/inflated likes list/distinct possibility of being trafficked, I avoid them. Who needs the stress?  :unknown:

Offline signy

any nationality could be subjected to being trafficked :unknown:

True, even Brits in their own country can be coerced and exploited, if not actually trafficked.

If we are going to punt, and I assume that most on this board will do so, then all we can do is reduce the odds of the SP being exploited. Careful reading of profiles and reviews helps, but it may be that we have to not consider certain nationalities as the chances are too high.

The worry is that the men visiting these women are the unpleasant punters, who have a good idea what they are getting and know that the women will not be able to complain if the punter gets a bit rough or pushes boundaries.

Offline Lou2019

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Exactly my thoughts, and unfair on the independent Romanians.

very true

Offline Lou2019

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True but with their well known poor service/inflated likes list/distinct possibility of being trafficked, I avoid them. Who needs the stress?  :unknown:

In their defence, when I read negative reviews on here it's a mixed bag of nationalities
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 12:53:02 pm by Lou2019 »

Offline tynetunnel

In their defence, when I read negative reviews on here it's a mixed bag of nationalities

To flip that Lou, most reviews that I read for Roms, are not positive. Anyone of any nationality can score a negative but Romanians (at least in those I read about) are consistently poor

Offline PunterNumber69

To flip that Lou, most reviews that I read for Roms, are not positive. Anyone of any nationality can score a negative but Romanians (at least in those I read about) are consistently poor
But is that because those Romanian women as being trafficked and mostly use Vivastreet for advertising and are B&S?.

I've only seen one Romanian SP.  She looked like her photos and worked for an agency.  She didn't appear to be being trafficked and was intelligent and had strong views on the politcal aspects of Romania.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 02:14:33 pm by PunterNumber69 »

Offline LLPunting

To flip that Lou, most reviews that I read for Roms, are not positive. Anyone of any nationality can score a negative but Romanians (at least in those I read about) are consistently poor

Are you reading Neg reviews at random or Neg reviews of SPs you've already noted an interest in without knowing anything about them?

Offline bedhedred

I used to avoid Romanians like the plague. Then I met a long string of really decent enthusiastic Rom escorts. You just need to research properly, and roll the dice once in a while.

Offline LLPunting

External Link/Members Only

Latest stats for Slavery/Trafficking in UK tracked at above.

Extracted below is top 30 nationalities suffering sexual exploitation in descending order of referred cases.

Hidden Image/Members Only
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 02:59:55 pm by LLPunting »

Offline RedKettle

Since this issue was highlighted some years ago I have been very careful about who I punt with and in particular if they are foreign I want to know that their English is excellent. If unable to communicate you really do struggle to make a judgement on whether they are really willing.

More than this I have pretty much avoided foreign WGs for a while, especially Roms although that had much to do with their bad reputation on here.

Many years ago after a few beers I had a punt with a young foreign woman with limited English in a grim room in London. I look back now and feel terrible, I do not know she was being pressured to be there but I have to accept it was a possibility. Personally I will apply a lot of caution now to ensure that I am not again having that worry.

Offline WelshClipper

I like to think I am careful and in general things have worked out. Can I say for sure that I have never visited a trafficked ROM, no I can’t. Who knows who is in the “other room” when she goes to stash the cash. Could be her workmate for safety or it could be Sergei.

What I can say is that I am 1000% more careful now. Years of reading AW profiles and UKP reviews really helps.

The one area that bothers me is TOFTT. It used to be fun, now it is always a cause for concern. TOFTT is the only way to introduce new escorts into the UKP pool whereas giving Hayley-x-x another review makes good reading but does anyone really benefit?

Stack the odds, thats really all any of us can do.

Offline fisherofsouls

Sheer self-preservation should drive you to avoid women at high risk of being coerced:

* From Romania, Hungary, China, Brazil
* Unusually cheap rates
* Offer bareback
* Poor English
* "Manager/security" in evidence

Will this unfairly rule out some genuine providers doing it of their own free will? Almost certainly, but ethics aside getting caught with a trafficked girl will properly screw your life up...

Offline LLPunting

"Not all the sex workers are being exploited by criminal gangs, but detectives believe a large proportion are."

This is apposite to the agenda driven nature of the clamour about sex-work-related trafficking as there is NO mention of the actual proportion.  Why use "believe" when their own data should give them a very specific amount, they know how many cases they've investigated and from that a very specific proportion of SWs confirming or strongly suspected as opposed to denying being exploited.  "Large" does not mean most of the total or even the largest proportion of the total, it's a very subjective classification of proportion without context.  The trafficking stats linked above give us 19% involving sexual exploitation at some 2053 out of 10613 reports.  Recent years estimates for the SW population is somewhere over 70000 so even if the trafficking reports are only 10% of the real activity of slavery that would give us 20000+ "sex-slaves" in 70000+ workers.  Without being given reliable estimates of the size of trafficking we cannot say how much the sex-work market is blighted by slavery.

Crusaders against sexual exploitation are chasing the wrong set of demons if they truly want to change the narrative about the non-exploitative work options for women who may be of limited "conventional or civilised" skill, motivation or talent.

Offline LLPunting

Since this issue was highlighted some years ago I have been very careful about who I punt with and in particular if they are foreign I want to know that their English is excellent. If unable to communicate you really do struggle to make a judgement on whether they are really willing.

More than this I have pretty much avoided foreign WGs for a while, especially Roms although that had much to do with their bad reputation on here.

Many years ago after a few beers I had a punt with a young foreign woman with limited English in a grim room in London. I look back now and feel terrible, I do not know she was being pressured to be there but I have to accept it was a possibility. Personally I will apply a lot of caution now to ensure that I am not again having that worry.

And the number one nationality subjected to sex trafficking and exploitation for many years now (if not since records began)?...

Offline LLPunting

Sheer self-preservation should drive you to avoid women at high risk of being coerced:

* From Romania, Hungary, China, Brazil
* Unusually cheap rates
* Offer bareback
* Poor English
* "Manager/security" in evidence

Will this unfairly rule out some genuine providers doing it of their own free will? Almost certainly, but ethics aside getting caught with a trafficked girl will properly screw your life up...

Bareback is not a prime indicator of trafficking, it is a prime indicator that bareback sex is in demand as driven by tastes shaped by porn.

What are "unusually cheap rates"?  Most rates are well above minimum wage, living wage and average wage equivalents.  Even parlour girls who only get to keep their tips are still making 20-60 per client at "regular" rates.  Girls in flats make 60+ per client.  The average person working an 8 hr shift at 10ph for say 45 wks a year still only gets c8.90 ph after tax for a whopping £71+ per day.

Lack of ability to speak the language of the country she's in may increase the chance that a woman in need of money might turn to sex work it does not necessarily mean she's more likely to be seized by traffickers and forced into prostitution. 

Minders/on-site non-SWs are just as likely to be present to prevent trouble from punters and thieves given anecdotal accounts from SPs who felt free to talk about present or past set-ups they were part of.

Offline tynetunnel

Are you reading Neg reviews at random or Neg reviews of SPs you've already noted an interest in without knowing anything about them?

Neither. I usually read all the reviews that are posted in my region

Offline tynetunnel

And the number one nationality subjected to sex trafficking and exploitation for many years now (if not since records began)?...

I’ll answer: Chinese - but the subject of this thread is Romanians

Offline LLPunting

I’ll answer: Chinese - but the subject of this thread is Romanians

The article is about Romanians in the UK, the question I posed was also about the UK,  your answer is wrong unless you're privvy to the real truth as opposed to the official statistics all the narratives and debates are built around.

Offline tynetunnel

The article is about Romanians in the UK, the question I posed was also about the UK,  your answer is wrong unless you're privvy to the real truth as opposed to the official statistics all the narratives and debates are built around.

The statistics are only those discovered. I suspect judging by the amount of profiles on vivastreet that the “real truth” is just the tip of the iceberg

Online Colston36

Exactly my thoughts, and unfair on the independent Romanians.
[/quote

The only two I have seen were independent - and lovely.

Offline Kev40ish

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The statistics are only those discovered. I suspect judging by the amount of profiles on vivastreet that the “real truth” is just the tip of the iceberg

It’s just a minefield unfortunately, there are always poor people who are going to be preyed on.
It’s easy for people to want to stamp it out, but until there is a better way to help out these people, it is never going to end. The ones that really suffer are the ones who lose their chance to earn money as they will not be looked after properly and will likely end up back in poverty

Offline blend57

Are exploited SWs more likely to work from certain areas of a city? For certain type of premises?

In London for example: Would you expect an exploited SW to work in the Earls Court area versus the Sloan Square area?

Offline MissWolf

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It’s just a minefield unfortunately, there are always poor people who are going to be preyed on.
It’s easy for people to want to stamp it out, but until there is a better way to help out these people, it is never going to end. The ones that really suffer are the ones who lose their chance to earn money as they will not be looked after properly and will likely end up back in poverty

Exactly this, until we have a fully regulated industry  that is recognised by governments and authorities as such we do not have the resources to combat this issue.

The biggest issue is of course that there is a market that drives this side of prostitution, while there are punters who don't give a fuck who they shag as long as they tick the boxes of what that punter wants there is a market for this side of the industry.
While there are punters who don't care about or see the sex workers the use as human or anything other than a commodity then there will be a market for this side of the industry
While there are unscrupulous cunts who see women as lesser humans or not human at all then this will go on as they can profit by it.

The human race is a fucking strange dichotomy  :(
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 06:19:15 pm by MissWolf »

Offline lillythesavage

Are exploited SWs more likely to work from certain areas of a city? For certain type of premises?

In London for example: Would you expect an exploited SW to work in the Earls Court area versus the Sloan Square area?

Could be anywhere, the rates might be different to cover the rent, usually cheaper boroughs though with cheaper rates to draw in the punters.

Offline filthyscotslover

There needs to be serious action about prostitution in the UK. Is it not that if a girl is working in premises alone that's ok but if its more than one then its classed as a brothel and that's illegal?. Pretty much half in and half out by the government. Surely legalising it so you can keep the woman safe, try to help ones in certain situations is got to be better than what we are doing currently?. Probably wouldn't fully stop human trafficking but would massively cut the numbers down. I'm not suggesting girls at the window like Amsterdam but just be more discreet about it. The SNP in Scotland are apparently keen on the Nordic Model of making it illegal to buy sex and will prosecute the buyer. I genuinely believe that's the road Scotland will go down sooner or later even though studies show its made matters worse for SWs in countries like Sweden. They don't call it the worlds oldest profession for nothing and you wont stop it no matter what you try. I wanna go over to Germany and see how the whole FKK scene works compared to here. Surely regulating it like that causes far less problems

Offline RedKettle

And the number one nationality subjected to sex trafficking and exploitation for many years now (if not since records began)?...

well unless you are going to say British I am not sure why that comment is relevant to what I said which was generally (as regards modern slavery) not nationality specific - I said I tend to avoid foreign WGs and if I do see one I want them to be good English speakers.

If you were getting at British WGs then as I say you communicate and that helps to form a view

Offline Kelvin Smyth

I believe its down to individual punters to use common sense and work out the perceived chances that there feeding this extremely nasty side of the business.

Any experienced punter should get a gut feeling if the girl is under duress and the premises you are visiting is a shithole.

I'm fortunate enough to live in Edinburgh, where we have an established "sauna" scene (basically council licensed brothels), and you have peace of mind that the money you give to the girl stays with her.

I've had decent experiences with Romanian girls in saunas, so you can't just assume all Romanian girls are trafficked (or any other nationality for that matter). 

Offline Marmalade

The saunas have always been pretty kosher as far as anyone can tell. Even during chief constable cookoo’s crackdown I think the only slightly dodgy find was with a west end agency. Ethnicity however does seem to be a factor and looking at which country a person is going to/from as they cross U.K. borders. Just ask a few more questions when certain passports and travel arrangements show up

Offline Pennine Rover

How do the Rom girls get into the UK now?  Our hospitality industry can't get Hungarian, Polish and Bulgarian workers here now.

Offline nbarnes

"Not all the sex workers are being exploited by criminal gangs, but detectives believe a large proportion are."

Absolutely. Who needs evidence-based policy when you can have policy-based evidence?

As you say, they have the data - I don't give a fuck about their gut feels.

It happens with every moral panic though - it's always the tip of the iceberg, there's always a hidden cohort.
Not neccesarily.

Offline nbarnes

There is no greater argument for legalisation and control of prostitution in the UK than this one.

Criminals will always run underground brothels - they don't care about the law, because they are criminals.
Foreign girls who are poor will always be at risk of exploitation by the dodgy.

Sentences that are given out for slavery cases are generally very shit too.
Stick slavery charges up to proper sentences, tax escorting properly and have helplines + government facilities \ a police task force that can investigate \ license this stuff properly.

"I'm fortunate enough to live in Edinburgh, where we have an established "sauna" scene (basically council licensed brothels), and you have peace of mind that the money you give to the girl stays with her."
This.

"The nordic model has made things worse for SWs in Sweden".
The Swedish Feminazis are fully aware of this, and are thus complicit in the damage that it does. They despise WGs for ideological reasons.
I've always found most normal women to be pragmatic with escorting and looking to minimize harms. It's a case of a vocal minority, as always.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 11:25:20 am by nbarnes »

Offline blend57

How do the Rom girls get into the UK now?  Our hospitality industry can't get Hungarian, Polish and Bulgarian workers here now.

Via the Airports. Easy enough for a Romanian to obtain a passport and a tourist visa. I am not sure what tests or checks they would need for covid.

I find it odd that people think the Romanian WGs must be smuggled in via ship or inside a container. Most people get in via the airports.

Offline StingRay

Via the Airports. Easy enough for a Romanian to obtain a passport and a tourist visa. I am not sure what tests or checks they would need for covid.


Any that were already here and applied for settled or pre-settled status are free to continue living in the UK.

Romania is now on the UK Green List so, whilst they still need to get a negative test before travel, and a day-2 test when they get here, for their "holiday", quarantine is no longer a requirement.

Offline Marmalade

There is no greater argument for legalisation and control of prostitution in the UK than this one.

Criminals will always run underground brothels - they don't care about the law, because they are criminals.
Foreign girls who are poor will always be at risk of exploitation by the dodgy.

Sentences that are given out for slavery cases are generally very shit too.
Stick slavery charges up to proper sentences, tax escorting properly and have helplines + government facilities \ a police task force that can investigate \ license this stuff properly.

"I'm fortunate enough to live in Edinburgh, where we have an established "sauna" scene (basically council licensed brothels), and you have peace of mind that the money you give to the girl stays with her."
This.

"The nordic model has made things worse for SWs in Sweden".
The Swedish Feminazis are fully aware of this, and are thus complicit in the damage that it does. They despise WGs for ideological reasons.
I've always found most normal women to be pragmatic with escorting and looking to minimize harms. It's a case of a vocal minority, as always.

The sauna system works well. Bring back a SW safe area as well and Edinburgh should be a model for the rest of the U.K.  Agreements, multi-lateral support networks and toleration, not divisive legislation.

Offline lillythesavage

How do the Rom girls get into the UK now?  Our hospitality industry can't get Hungarian, Polish and Bulgarian workers here now.


They do not want to come anymore, many that could have stayed have not, the pandemic did for most of them on zero hours contracts far more than Brexit, no work, no money, so they went home and found it is not so bad after all.
The good new is wages are climbing in lots of jobs and to keep staff better deals are being offered, Shareholders will not like it and will find other ways to make us pay for money they could never spend.
The unskilled jobs market is getting a long needed correction though. Unskilled is a poor description though, at one time barman was a profession, in Ireland at least, and truck driving these days needs a hell of a lot of classwork and red tape to be legal.

Offline boardyhell


Offline Home Alone

I've always been a chatty punter,  and in my very early days of punting - 2004-'06, so before I discovered AW - and only punted in the Massage Parlours of Greater Manchester, I remember there was a German SP working in one of them.

Her English was at best passable and my conversational German was non-existent. That combination made it one of the least satisfactory punts of my life.