2021 F1/Motorsport

[ratedj]

Yep, look at all that qualifications and he has to appear sportsman like.  Look at the aggro Alonso is getting re his recent 'better' comment.

Racers think they are the best, it's hard wired

I don't know, maybe the views of a four-time world champion tend to hold some weight. 

[cideruk]

I don't know, maybe the views of a four-time world champion tend to hold some weight. 

If he had said what he really thinks he'd look churlish and unsporting

No way does SV think LH is better than him.

SV is definitely on the wane now and was wrecking his legacy last year, time will tell if he can restore some of it in 2021. Leclerc showed him up big time styleee.

But hardly surprising as Leclerc and Verstappen are the best two on the grid at present.
 

[ratedj]

So who are / were not only the great drivers but the all time greats 
What we also need to consider here though is that some really good drivers careers were hampered by being the No2 in the team, can't remember if it was Mansell; Coulthard and / or mark Webber who all complained about being the No2 in the team.
So even if they were out qualifying and out performing their team mate in the race they were expected to slow down or move to one side and allow the other guy to win, think Webber made the comment on the team radio about "Not bad for a No2".
There were also complaints about how the No2 drivers would do the majority of testing etc then those settings would be given to the No1 if they were better but the No2 didn't necessarily have an optimised car, also back in the days of the spare "T" car it was always set up for the No1 to use

From the "Old" era i'd say Fangio; Stirling Moss and Jim Clark were all amazing drivers and this was back when a mistake could easily cost your life.
Jim Clark sadly died too early for him to show his full potential and Stirling Moss was up against Fangio otherwise he would have won many titles.

From the "Mid" era for me the stand out driver was Senna, hard to say if he would have won another title had he not died but that really depends if he's have had the right car, if he was in a competitive car then i think he'd have won.
Another from that era was Lauda who was a bit of a cold fish perhaps but analytical; professional and could set the car up better than anybody

From the modern era I believe Hamilton is a great driver as demonstrated by his ability in the wet, Schumacher was also good but not as good as Hamilton IMO.
They have both had good cars and I can't remember who said it but someone made a comment about how Ferrari developed their whole car around Schumacher and that anyone who had that tailored to them could have won titles in what was the best car 

Vettel was good in the Red bull when it was the best car but look at more recent seasons in the Ferrari where he has made far too many errors and lets not forget at times in 17/18 that Ferrari did look competitive

I'd say Max Verstappen is a good driver and future world champion too, likewise George Russell could do well in a decent car


Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

Jenson Button was also a good driver but was just too nice a bloke and sat at BAR waiting for the developments to happen rather than jumping ship to a better team

For me though the greatest of all time has to be Fangio and even drivers like Senna held him in high regard 

You make some very interesting points, but I would have to disagree with your summation re Schumacher. Schumacher helped transform Ferrari. You take away his five titles from 2000 to 2004 and Ferrari have only won two world titles in 41 years! Before Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 they had won only two grand prix in five years; by 1997 Ferrari were competing for the world championship and winning multiple races.

You forgot to mention Alain Prost, the man nicknamed the 'Professor' due to his cerebral approach. Personally, I believe that a part of Senna's greatness stemmed from his battles with Prost. Both propelled each other to new heights. Mika Häkkinen was another all time great, and the man Schumacher attributed as his greatest rival.

Along with Verstappen, Leclerc is a world champion in waiting. The only question is whether Ferrari can provide him with a competitive car in 2022. 

[ratedj]

If he had said what he really thinks he'd look churlish and unsporting

No way does SV think LH is better than him.

SV is definitely on the wane now and was wrecking his legacy last year, time will tell if he can restore some of it in 2021. Leclerc showed him up big time styleee.

But hardly surprising as Leclerc and Verstappen are the best two on the grid at present.

I think we're confusing things a bit here by intimating what he really did or did not think. It's much easier to take his comments at face value.

One thing I will agree with you on is that Verstappen and Leclerc are likely to forge F1's next great rivalry.

[cideruk]

I think we're confusing things a bit here by intimating what he really did or did not think. It's much easier to take his comments at face value.

One thing I will agree with you on is that Verstappen and Leclerc are likely to forge F1's next great rivalry.

PR = bullshit usually

No racing driver would ever say 'oh yeah he's better than me' and mean it. If SV was asked would LH beat him in the same car then SV would say no

[cideruk]

Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

Piquet had to pit thus throwing away the chance to get 4 titles

All time greats

Clark
Senna
Fangio
Jackie Stewart

Yes LH better than Hunt, D Hill, Button

But all time great, nahhh Just huge car advantage

[cideruk]

Mika Häkkinen was another all time great

Think we have a completely different version of 'all time great'

And I liked MH a lot

[Blackpool Rock]

You make some very interesting points, but I would have to disagree with your summation re Schumacher. Schumacher helped transform Ferrari. You take away his five titles from 2000 to 2004 and Ferrari have only won two world titles in 41 years! Before Schumacher joined Ferrari in 1996 they had won only two grand prix in five years; by 1997 Ferrari were competing for the world championship and winning multiple races.

You forgot to mention Alain Prost, the man nicknamed the 'Professor' due to his cerebral approach. Personally, I believe that a part of Senna's greatness stemmed from his battles with Prost. Both propelled each other to new heights. Mika Häkkinen was another all time great, and the man Schumacher attributed as his greatest rival.

Along with Verstappen, Leclerc is a world champion in waiting. The only question is whether Ferrari can provide him with a competitive car in 2022.

Well I did say Schumacher was good and that was clear from the outset when he 1st raced for Benneton and did more with the car than anyone else could.
I did think of mentioning Prost but decided not to as I never liked the guy especially as I felt he was wrong to take Senna out the way he did (I know Senna returned the favour but hey), have to say though Prost went up in my estimation after watching the Senna film and it looks like a lot of the hate and rivalry at the time was just down to pure racer rivalry rather than personal hatred

Agree Leclerc has potential with the right ride

[ratedj]

Well I did say Schumacher was good and that was clear from the outset when he 1st raced for Benneton and did more with the car than anyone else could.
I did think of mentioning Prost but decided not to as I never liked the guy especially as I felt he was wrong to take Senna out the way he did (I know Senna returned the favour but hey), have to say though Prost went up in my estimation after watching the Senna film and it looks like a lot of the hate and rivalry at the time was just down to pure racer rivalry rather than personal hatred

Agree Leclerc has potential with the right ride

Touché! I meant it as in Shumi is on the same level as Hamilton. To be fair, I think the '89 incident was a racing incident. Could Prost have left more room for Senna? Possibly, especially given that Senna was unlikely to make the corner. But the 1990 incident is commonly viewed as Senna's worst moment. Apparently, the car telemetry showed that Senna never came off the throttle until he hit the barrier. As soon as Prost overtook him he decided that he was taking Prost out, as he later admitted. His body language immediately after the crash demonstrated that he knew he had done wrong.

It was also alleged that after Prost had retired Senna had revealed to a close aid that a part of him had also retired, as Prost had been the driver who he had measured himself against. Arrguably the strongest pairing in F1 history.

[ratedj]

Think we have a completely different version of 'all time great'

And I liked MH a lot

Mika is one who flies under the radar. Only 16 drivers have two or more titles.

[mr.bluesky]

I don't dislike him just deal in reality rather than flag waving jingoism.

The reality is Hamilton has won 7 world titles and may win his eighth this year.
The reality is Hamilton has won more grand prix's than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has had more pole positions than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has led more laps than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has more podiums than any other driver.

[cideruk]

Mika is one who flies under the radar. Only 16 drivers have two or more titles.

Do you see all of those two and above as 'all time greats' then? Rather a lot of them isn't it?

The reality is Hamilton has won 7 world titles and may win his eighth this year.
The reality is Hamilton has won more grand prix's than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has had more pole positions than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has led more laps than any other driver.
The reality is Hamilton has more podiums than any other driver.

Huge car advantage and there's a lot more races nowadays.
Stats are like a bikini, what they show is interesting but what they hide is vital.

[Steve2]

I was more concerned about the track limits rule change for the race. Lewis got 3 warnings but Max just got told he had to give place back after 1st infringement 

[ratedj]

I was more concerned about the track limits rule change for the race. Lewis got 3 warnings but Max just got told he had to give place back after 1st infringement 

There was no change to track limits for the race. Hamilton was correctly given three warnings for running off track at Turn 4. Verstappen was ordered to give the position back for runnning wide and gaining a lasting advantage. A huge difference. 

[cideruk]

I was more concerned about the track limits rule change for the race. Lewis got 3 warnings but Max just got told he had to give place back after 1st infringement 

All rather bizarre to tell the drivers the limits applied during quali then to say they didn't in the race but then warn drivers re track limits during the race.  As DC said, have one rule and stick to it.

[Blackpool Rock]

All rather bizarre to tell the drivers the limits applied during quali then to say they didn't in the race but then warn drivers re track limits during the race.  As DC said, have one rule and stick to it.

Yeah moving the goalposts didn't make sense, from the in car radio it was clear that the drivers didn't actually know what the race rules were

[Corus Boy]

All rather bizarre to tell the drivers the limits applied during quali then to say they didn't in the race but then warn drivers re track limits during the race.  As DC said, have one rule and stick to it.

I think that the Stewards felt the need to take action.

According to the radio messages I heard;

Red Bull told MV that LH was cutting the corner at Turn 4 and getting better lap time by doing it and that Stewards were taking no action.

So start trimming the corner.

However I'm thinking that trimming the corner was not attracting any attention.

But no a team is instructing a driver to trim the corner.

MV makes a successful overtake but his speed necessitates exceeding Track Limits at Turn 4.

So to me exceeding Track Limits as a bit of corner cutting, and doing the same to successfully complete an overtaking move are a world apart.

I think the Stewards stepped in because of the Red Bull radio call was close to inciting a driver to cheat. and despite LH having been doing just that they decided to implement the rules.

The hand back call was exactly what should have happened because the place WAS gained tnrough a rule infringement.

All worthy of the Michael Schmacher, Ross Brawn school of race craft and grey rule interpetations, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[ratedj]

This is what Race Director Michael Masi had to say following the race, via the F1 website:

“With regard to tolerance given with people running outside of the track limits during the race,” said Masi, “it was mentioned very clearly in the [drivers’] meeting and the notes that it would not be monitored with regard to setting the lap time so to speak – but it will always be monitored in according with the Sporting Regulations that a lasting advantage overall must not be gained.

“Nothing changed at all during the race,” he added. “We had two people that were looking in that area at every car at every lap and pretty much every car bar one was doing the right thing within what we expected in a general sequence. There was the occasional car that had a bit of a moment or went out there but it wasn’t a constant thing.”

I imagine the one car he's referring to is Hamilton.

Rearding Verstappen having to hand back the position:

“So it is quite different and clearly specifically different and consistent with both notes and what was mentioned and discussed with drivers in the driver meeting,” said Masi. “If an overtake takes place with a car off track and gains an advantage, a lasting advantage, I will go on the radio and suggest to the team that they immediately relinquish that position, and that was made very clear.

“Red Bull were actually given an instruction immediately by myself that I suggested they relinquish that position as listed in the Sporting Regulations, which they did. It wasn’t for exceeding track limits – it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the race track.

[lamboman]

I don't dislike him just deal in reality rather than flag waving jingoism. Didn't like all the 'our Nige' crap either. 

I didn't say he wasn't good in the wet, I just pointed out the fact Senna was better, which is true.

He's had a huge car advantage for years, yes I agree.

How do you know was Senna better in the wet?Prost beat Senna in the same car so I guess Senna was also crap,Lauda beat Prost in the same car so Prost must have been crap too.
Your arguments make no sense and betray a lack of motorsport knowledge or perhaps there's another reason?
As for Niko beating Lewis fair and square that's just plain ridiculous.

[Londonpunter30]

Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

Jenson Button was also a good driver but was just too nice a bloke and sat at BAR waiting for the developments to happen rather than jumping ship to a better team

For me though the greatest of all time has to be Fangio and even drivers like Senna held him in high regard 

Agree about Fangio definitely my pick for greatest F1 driver, with a nod to Tarzio Nuvolari as a Grand Prix great.

This is from memory, so some facts may be wrong.  Prost pitted for tyres and when Goodyear checked the ones they came off they told their teams there was no need to pit.  This was why Mansell stayed out, nothing to do with being a number two.  Sir Frank cared more about the constructors championship than the drivers title.

Villeneuve only won 6 races and no titles but is still a great.

[Yankee21]

LH is one of the greats.
The races he has won when it looks as if his tyres have gone off the cliff have been amazing.

and management of the tyres is one of the key skills to have in modern f1, especially hybrid era.

[cideruk]

How do you know was Senna better in the wet?Prost beat Senna in the same car so I guess Senna was also crap,Lauda beat Prost in the same car so Prost must have been crap too.
Your arguments make no sense and betray a lack of motorsport knowledge or perhaps there's another reason?
As for Niko beating Lewis fair and square that's just plain ridiculous.

Did you watch Donnington or Estoril?

Which one of Prost or Lauda are you thinking is on a par with Button and N Rosberg then?

Oh and it's Nico by the way - 'betray a lack of motor sport knowledge' yep

NR beat LH, end of

[cideruk]

Villeneuve only won 6 races and no titles but is still a great.

My all time fave driver

[Lewboy]

There was no change to track limits for the race. Hamilton was correctly given three warnings for running off track at Turn 4. Verstappen was ordered to give the position back for runnning wide and gaining a lasting advantage. A huge difference.

Did Hamilton not gain an advantage every time he ran wide at turn 4 though? I don’t remember him actually getting a warning as he ran wide 29 times, it was only until Red Bull pointed it out that he was told to stop.

[lamboman]

Did you watch Donnington or Estoril?

Which one of Prost or Lauda are you thinking is on a par with Button and N Rosberg then?

Oh and it's Nico by the way - 'betray a lack of motor sport knowledge' yep

NR beat LH, end of

He's that forgettable I forgot how is name is spelt 
He did beat Lewis once in 4 years when Lewis has no end of mechanical problems so I don't really think he was the better driver.
Senna was decent in the wet,how you know he would have been better than Lewis is bizarre to say the least and by your logic Prost was a better driver than Senna anyway.
Still you seem to know more than anybody currently involved in F1,you should be a team manager with your driver spotting talent 

[Charlie Chalk]

Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

That’s totally untrue. Piquet didn’t stop for tyres until after Mansell’s accident. Prost had an earlier stop after having a puncture, but Goodyear examined his tyres and concluded that wear was minimal so no planned stop for any of the other Goodyear runners would be required. Mansell was happy with this as his lap times were fine. Rosberg’s puncture on Lap 63 was the first sign that anything might be wrong, and there was too little time between them and Mansell’s crash for Williams to have done anything.

For the record, Mansell was never a No 2 @ Williams (although Piquet claimed his agreement with Frank Williams was that he’d be No 1). Mansell’s failure to win more than 1 WDC was down to him and not his status within Williams or Ferrari.

[lamboman]

Did Hamilton not gain an advantage every time he ran wide at turn 4 though? I don’t remember him actually getting a warning as he ran wide 29 times, it was only until Red Bull pointed it out that he was told to stop.

The stewards didn't count it as 29 times and they set the standards.

[Blackpool Rock]

That’s totally untrue. Piquet didn’t stop for tyres until after Mansell’s accident. Prost had an earlier stop after having a puncture, but Goodyear examined his tyres and concluded that wear was minimal so no planned stop for any of the other Goodyear runners would be required. Mansell was happy with this as his lap times were fine. Rosberg’s puncture on Lap 63 was the first sign that anything might be wrong, and there was too little time between them and Mansell’s crash for Williams to have done anything.

For the record, Mansell was never a No 2 @ Williams (although Piquet claimed his agreement with Frank Williams was that he’d be No 1). Mansell’s failure to win more than 1 WDC was down to him and not his status within Williams or Ferrari.

Yes someone already posted that I was wrong about the tyre failure etc and I have indeed read an article to that effect so yes you are correct.
I think there was a lot of bad feeling at the time that Mansell hadn't won the title given quite a time since the last Brit (Hunt) had won it, this was no doubt also fuelled by a lot of peoples dislike of Prost

External Link/Members Only

[cideruk]

He's that forgettable I forgot how is name is spelt 
He did beat Lewis once in 4 years when Lewis has no end of mechanical problems so I don't really think he was the better driver.
Senna was decent in the wet,how you know he would have been better than Lewis is bizarre to say the least and by your logic Prost was a better driver than Senna anyway.
Still you seem to know more than anybody currently involved in F1,you should be a team manager with your driver spotting talent 

NR 1 dnf
LH 2 dnf

You really are clutching at straws here, probably best just admit you are wrong

Nico beat Lewis fair and square, all time bests do NOT get beaten by the likes of NR #fact

Senna was absolutely awesome in the wet, stop digging yourself in a hole.  Everybody with even a modicum of knowledge knows that.

Prost did beat Senna, but Prost isn't a Button or Rosberg is he?  Again more digging...

[ratedj]

NR 1 dnf
LH 2 dnf

You really are clutching at straws here, probably best just admit you are wrong

Nico beat Lewis fair and square, all time bests do NOT get beaten by the likes of NR #fact

Senna was absolutely awesome in the wet, stop digging yourself in a hole.  Everybody with even a modicum of knowledge knows that.

Prost did beat Senna, but Prost isn't a Button or Rosberg is he?  Again more digging...

In Lamboman's defence you seem to have misinterpreted his comment, with mechanical having been the operative word. Your DNF argument is flawed. When you compare Hamilton and Rosberg's mechanical records from 2016 you arrive at this:

Rosberg mechanical issues:

Austria: Suspension problem in practice caused crash which resulted in five-place penalty for gearbox change. Brake-by-wire fault on last lap allowed Hamilton to attack.

Hamilton mechanical issues:

China: An ERS failure at the start of qualifying, relegating him to 22nd on the grid.
Russia: An ERS failure during Q3, restricting Hamilton to 10th on the grid.
Europe: Spent part of race in wrong engine mode as team were not allowed to tell him how to change it.
Belgium: Started last after taking a grid penalty for power unit component changes.
Singapore: Hydraulic problem in second practice limited his running.
Malaysia: Engine failed while leading.

As I have said earlier, mechanical issues are part and parcel of motor racing, but even Stevie Wonder could see who bore the brunt of the bad mechanical luck between the pair.

[cideruk]

Not breaking your car and understanding how it operates are all part of being a top driver

NR beat LH fair and square - no amount of bleating is going to alter that fact, just because he's British and NR German doesn't alter the truth.

Same re Button beating him, in equal machinery.  Alonso too had it not been for points docked.

He really is not an all time great, good driver with a massive car advantage. The front half of the grid would win races/titles if given that Merc.

[mr.bluesky]

He really is not an all time great, good driver with a massive car advantage. The front half of the grid would win races/titles if given that Merc.

So how come Bottas doesn't beat him . He has exactly the same car. ?  How come Russell didn't win when he had his drive in the mercedes ?

[ratedj]

Not breaking your car and understanding how it operates are all part of being a top driver

NR beat LH fair and square - no amount of bleating is going to alter that fact, just because he's British and NR German doesn't alter the truth.

Same re Button beating him, in equal machinery.  Alonso too had it not been for points docked.

He really is not an all time great, good driver with a massive car advantage. The front half of the grid would win races/titles if given that Merc.

I think you have some knowledge of the sport, though you do seriously underestimate the complexity of the current gen power units. You might be surprised to hear that I've always been a fan of the Scarlet Red car, and thus I've never been a 'fan' of Hamilton per se, but his status as an all-time great is not in doubt.

Also, just for clarification, Alonso was not docked points in 2007. McLaren lost their constructor's points due to 'Spygate,' but both Hamilton and Alonso kept their points. Yes, you are right, the front half of the grid would likely win a race/title if in a Mercedes, but what truly sets apart the great from the good is the races they are not meant to win, such as Hamilton in Bahrain last week, or in Turkey last year.

[RMwonderer]

RIP walker. I'm only 27 but his voice is the only one I remember. Ledgard and Croft are not the greatest

[Blackpool Rock]

So how come Bottas doesn't beat him . He has exactly the same car. ?  How come Russell didn't win when he had his drive in the mercedes ?

Can't remember the details now but didn't the team make 2 major tactical fuck ups 

[mr.bluesky]

Can't remember the details now but didn't the team make 2 major tactical fuck ups 

True but according to Cideruk any one in the front half of the grid would win races/ titles given the merc. My point is that it's not as straightforward as that. There are so many factors you have to take into consideration. Ratedj seems to me to be more knowledgeable when it comes to all things formula 1. Cideruk just seems to be a member of the Rosberg fan club. Any one with even just a passing interest in F1 would agree that Hamilton is an all time great wether you like the bloke or not.

[Charlie Chalk]

Yes someone already posted that I was wrong about the tyre failure etc and I have indeed read an article to that effect so yes you are correct.
I think there was a lot of bad feeling at the time that Mansell hadn't won the title given quite a time since the last Brit (Hunt) had won it, this was no doubt also fuelled by a lot of peoples dislike of Prost

External Link/Members Only

That’s probably right. The jingoistic British press were ready to anoint St Nigel and his glorious slaying of those sly Johnny Foreigner types (this was the longest period of time Britain had gone without having a WDC) but it didn’t turn out as they wished. Obviously it couldn’t be Our Nige’s fault so they laid the blame at the door of Williams, Goodyear, Prost, Piquet, anyone really.

Still have fond memories of staying awake all night to watch the race - how I didn’t wake up the rest of the house with a “YEEEEEESSSS” when Mansell’s tyre exploded I’ll never know. Even funnier is that if Mansell had stuck it in the wall he’d have been WC since the race would have been stopped and, since it would have been more than 75% completed, would have been declared a result but with 1/2 points awarded 

[cideruk]

I think you have some knowledge of the sport, though you do seriously underestimate the complexity of the current gen power units. You might be surprised to hear that I've always been a fan of the Scarlet Red car, and thus I've never been a 'fan' of Hamilton per se, but his status as an all-time great is not in doubt.

Also, just for clarification, Alonso was not docked points in 2007. McLaren lost their constructor's points due to 'Spygate,' but both Hamilton and Alonso kept their points. Yes, you are right, the front half of the grid would likely win a race/title if in a Mercedes, but what truly sets apart the great from the good is the races they are not meant to win, such as Hamilton in Bahrain last week, or in Turkey last year.

Extensive knowledge of all motor sport

I stand corrected, not points but a grid penalty

Controversy hit the qualifying sessions when Hamilton failed to honor an agreement to let Alonso past on track, this denied Alonso a competitive advantage when setting his lap time.[4] Alonso then retaliated by holding Hamilton up in the pit lane, to in turn deny Hamilton a chance to record a final lap time. Stewards later dropped Alonso five places down the starting grid of the race, putting him in sixth while Hamilton started in pole position. McLaren were also told they would not score any Constructor's Championship points in the race and wouldn't be presented with a winning constructor's trophy on the podium if one of their drivers were to win the race. The team stated Hamilton's hold-up was not Alonso's fault (although Alonso gave the stewards a different explanation, that he was inquiring about his tyres),[5] and that Hamilton had disobeyed team orders to let Alonso pass him, which put the two drivers out of sequence for their pit stops.[6] McLaren had initially expressed their intent to appeal the Constructor's points penalty but ultimately withdrew their appeal after subsequently losing all their Constructor's points as penalty for the espionage scandal.

[cideruk]

So how come Bottas doesn't beat him . He has exactly the same car. ?  How come Russell didn't win when he had his drive in the mercedes ?

So you didn't watch the race then. GR was walking it, in a strange car that he didn't even fit in.  It proved beyond all doubt that its the car that's the all time great and not the driver.

[cideruk]

Cideruk just seems to be a member of the Rosberg fan club.

Yeah that's why I've slated him

Keke I was a fan of, his Silverstone quali lap was legendary - not bad for a 60 a day man

[cideruk]

That’s probably right. The jingoistic British press were ready to anoint St Nigel and his glorious slaying of those sly Johnny Foreigner types (this was the longest period of time Britain had gone without having a WDC) but it didn’t turn out as they wished. Obviously it couldn’t be Our Nige’s fault so they laid the blame at the door of Williams, Goodyear, Prost, Piquet, anyone really.

Still have fond memories of staying awake all night to watch the race - how I didn’t wake up the rest of the house with a “YEEEEEESSSS” when Mansell’s tyre exploded I’ll never know. Even funnier is that if Mansell had stuck it in the wall he’d have been WC since the race would have been stopped and, since it would have been more than 75% completed, would have been declared a result but with 1/2 points awarded 

The whole Lewis worshipping is much the same thing

Jingoistic flag waving by clueless fans

I always liked Piquet (the Brabham BT52 was one of the best looking F1 cars of all time imho)  so was gutted he surrendered a 4th title

[Londonpunter30]

Think we can al agree , in current F1, the car makes the biggest difference.  Lewis, Senna, Schumacher etc wouldn’t win in the current Williams.  However the greats are able to do performances that transcend the car.  Some of Lewis drives in the wet are what makes him a great, or even his F2 drive in Turkey in 2006.  Went down to last and still won the race and that’s with everyone in the same car.

The greats invariably end up in the best cars because they are the greats.

Russell is touted as a future champion, which is why he was put in the Merc in the first place.  The fact he out performed Bottas shows how much potential he has

[mr.bluesky]

Extensive knowledge of all motor sport

What including moto gp ? Speedway ? Motor x ? Rally driving  Stock car racing ? Nascar ? Indycar ? Le Mans ? TT racing ?

[cideruk]

Senna effectively did just that, at Monaco in the Toleman and at Donington in the McLaren - hence why he most definitely is an all time great

One of the best wet race performances of recent years was Button at Canada, but of course Button beat Hamilton in the same car so must be an all time great too??

Plus Alonso and Vettel showed their potential in poor cars

[cideruk]

What including moto gp ? Speedway ? Motor x ? Rally driving  Stock car racing ? Nascar ? Indycar ? Le Mans ? TT racing ?

Some yes, less so the low level stuff such as stock cars and am well rusty now re 2 wheeled stuff

[mr.bluesky]

Think we can al agree , in current F1, the car makes the biggest difference.  Lewis, Senna, Schumacher etc wouldn’t win in the current Williams.  However the greats are able to do performances that transcend the car.  Some of Lewis drives in the wet are what makes him a great, or even his F2 drive in Turkey in 2006.  Went down to last and still won the race and that’s with everyone in the same car.

The greats invariably end up in the best cars because they are the greats.

Russell is touted as a future champion, which is why he was put in the Merc in the first place.  The fact he out performed Bottas shows how much potential he has

Steady on Londonpunter you will be classed as a jingoistic flag waver 

[mr.bluesky]

Some yes, less so the low level stuff such as stock cars and am well rusty now re 2 wheeled stuff

So you dont have extensive knowledge of all motorsports then. 

[Blackpool Rock]

So who are / were not only the great drivers but the all time greats 
What we also need to consider here though is that some really good drivers careers were hampered by being the No2 in the team, can't remember if it was Mansell; Coulthard and / or mark Webber who all complained about being the No2 in the team.
So even if they were out qualifying and out performing their team mate in the race they were expected to slow down or move to one side and allow the other guy to win, think Webber made the comment on the team radio about "Not bad for a No2".
There were also complaints about how the No2 drivers would do the majority of testing etc then those settings would be given to the No1 if they were better but the No2 didn't necessarily have an optimised car, also back in the days of the spare "T" car it was always set up for the No1 to use

From the "Old" era i'd say Fangio; Stirling Moss and Jim Clark were all amazing drivers and this was back when a mistake could easily cost your life.
Jim Clark sadly died too early for him to show his full potential and Stirling Moss was up against Fangio otherwise he would have won many titles.

From the "Mid" era for me the stand out driver was Senna, hard to say if he would have won another title had he not died but that really depends if he's have had the right car, if he was in a competitive car then i think he'd have won.
Another from that era was Lauda who was a bit of a cold fish perhaps but analytical; professional and could set the car up better than anybody

From the modern era I believe Hamilton is a great driver as demonstrated by his ability in the wet, Schumacher was also good but not as good as Hamilton IMO.
They have both had good cars and I can't remember who said it but someone made a comment about how Ferrari developed their whole car around Schumacher and that anyone who had that tailored to them could have won titles in what was the best car 

Vettel was good in the Red bull when it was the best car but look at more recent seasons in the Ferrari where he has made far too many errors and lets not forget at times in 17/18 that Ferrari did look competitive

I'd say Max Verstappen is a good driver and future world champion too, likewise George Russell could do well in a decent car


Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

Jenson Button was also a good driver but was just too nice a bloke and sat at BAR waiting for the developments to happen rather than jumping ship to a better team

For me though the greatest of all time has to be Fangio and even drivers like Senna held him in high regard 

I want to add another name to my all time greats for the "Old Era" -
John Surtees who was predominantly a motor cycle racer winning the 500cc title 4 times and then switching to cars where he then one the F1 title.

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Not many racers can be competitive on both 2 wheels and 4, John is still the only person to have won at the top level in both disciplines 

[Londonpunter30]

Senna effectively did just that, at Monaco in the Toleman and at Donington in the McLaren - hence why he most definitely is an all time great

One of the best wet race performances of recent years was Button at Canada, but of course Button beat Hamilton in the same car so must be an all time great too??

Plus Alonso and Vettel showed their potential in poor cars

In Monaco 84 the car was runnng underweight and wouldn’t have made the finish.

Button had amazing car control and was better than his one title showed.  He lost his front wing on his Honda in the wet , think it was Fuji, and still did the same lap time.

Button, DC and Damon Hill show the mental side to sport.  All could outperform the greats on their day, but never maintain it for an entire season.  I’d put Bottas in that bracket too, good driver, his GP3 title season was a great late season charge, but can’t do it race after race

[ratedj]

Extensive knowledge of all motor sport

I stand corrected, not points but a grid penalty

Controversy hit the qualifying sessions when Hamilton failed to honor an agreement to let Alonso past on track, this denied Alonso a competitive advantage when setting his lap time.[4] Alonso then retaliated by holding Hamilton up in the pit lane, to in turn deny Hamilton a chance to record a final lap time. Stewards later dropped Alonso five places down the starting grid of the race, putting him in sixth while Hamilton started in pole position. McLaren were also told they would not score any Constructor's Championship points in the race and wouldn't be presented with a winning constructor's trophy on the podium if one of their drivers were to win the race. The team stated Hamilton's hold-up was not Alonso's fault (although Alonso gave the stewards a different explanation, that he was inquiring about his tyres),[5] and that Hamilton had disobeyed team orders to let Alonso pass him, which put the two drivers out of sequence for their pit stops.[6] McLaren had initially expressed their intent to appeal the Constructor's points penalty but ultimately withdrew their appeal after subsequently losing all their Constructor's points as penalty for the espionage scandal.

With all due respect I think that remains to be seen.

So are you insinuating that Alonso would have beaten Hamilton that year had he not received the grid penalty in Hungary? I'm confused.