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Author Topic: Prostitution Laws in the UK  (Read 1477 times)

Offline Steely Dan

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Prostitution laws in the UK was captured in the wiki as part of the introduction to punting page. I thought this topic needed a bit more. So I pulled this part out into a new page and expanded it a bit based on some recent threads.  And I cleared some dead links. Hey, if I cant punt, I might as well write about punting!

I am no lawyer, just an editor.  I welcome any of you legal eagles to tell me where I got it wrong.  You can do this just by editing the wiki (anyone can edit) or by replying here and if I am not too busy doing my daily walk, worrying about what KT means by a mango, or reading the latest about the EU, I shall edit the page for you.

Or if you have any personal experience with the law, either point us to the thread or tell your tale.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 10:35:29 pm by Steely Dan »

Offline Alanroy

Aw man. I wish I had read this when I first started punting. I used to think at every punt, I'd hand over the cash, she'd leave the room, and then a fucking SWAT team would burst in and shout "HAHA GOT YOU" then drag me out, naked, and send me straight to jail.

 I've read up on laws since, but it's good to see it laid out so clearly. Cheers.

Online daviemac

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I tend to link the official CPS version then there's no doubt about what is or isn't legal.

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Maybe worth putting the link in the wiki.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 10:45:32 pm by daviemac »

Offline Steely Dan

I tend to link the official CPS version then there's no doubt about what is or isn't legal.

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Maybe worth putting the link in the wiki.
Yes your link to this page on an earlier thread is one of the things that nudged me into editing.  Thanks. I have it linked at least twice on the wiki. For a government page, this is a pretty easy read in fact.  Of course this is just England and Wales.  If you notice any of the comments on the wiki are inconsistent at all with this CPS page, please say.

And in my view, legal is one important thing.  Next is enforcement.  Next is consequence.  Punters need to reflect on all 3.  We all go over the speed limit at times.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 10:55:31 pm by Steely Dan »

Offline SamOmar

The law has too many grey areas when it comes to prostitution in the UK, we should definitely overhaul and regulate it like in some European countries. I'm in the process of writing a series of 3 books based on true stories. I hope my lack of grammer and English writing ability do not detract from the reading (a good editor maybe needed down the line). I met with a lawyer a few years back who was campaigning for the rights of prostitutes and more regulation. However I believe he is retired now and still being such a taboo subject in the UK i can't see anything really happening.

There is an excellent paper written by the University of Bristol in 2019 that I assume was presented to the government and is an excellent read.

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Offline Steely Dan

The law has too many grey areas when it comes to prostitution in the UK, we should definitely overhaul and regulate it like in some European countries. I'm in the process of writing a series of 3 books based on true stories. I hope my lack of grammer and English writing ability do not detract from the reading (a good editor maybe needed down the line). I met with a lawyer a few years back who was campaigning for the rights of prostitutes and more regulation. However I believe he is retired now and still being such a taboo subject in the UK i can't see anything really happening.

There is an excellent paper written by the University of Bristol in 2019 that I assume was presented to the government and is an excellent read.

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I have added a link to this paper.  Thanks.

In my experience most European countries have it worse.  In Germany, they regulate so much that OWO is banned in most cases.  Overall, the current 'grey' UK laws  - together with the CPS enforcement rules - are pretty good for the punter. I don't want to become Germany or Holland.

Offline Fuggedaboutit

From the CPS link...

"The emphasis should be to encourage them to engage with support services and to find routes out of prostitution."

I'm sure a well established independent SP charging £150 an hour, seeing 4 clients a day for 5 days is really going to want to find a route out of a £3k a week income....

(Yes, yes, I know the CPS emphasis is (rightly so) on protecting those coerced/trafficked)
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Offline Fuggedaboutit

I have added a link to this paper.  Thanks.

In my experience most European countries have it worse.  In Germany, they regulate so much that OWO is banned in most cases.  Overall, the current 'grey' UK laws  - together with the CPS enforcement rules - are pretty good for the punter. I don't want to become Germany or Holland.

The problem with any "grey" area is it's just as likely to work against you. Note that unknowingly engaging in sexual activity with a coerced SP is a strict liability offence (i.e. you're guilty irrespective of not being aware that the SP was coerced). Whilst most of my reviews (thus far) have been for EE (Polish) SPs in their early 20s, I generally tend to favour (but all these are over 12 months ago) English SPs of 30 plus purely because there is less risk of trafficking/coercion. I positively avoid Roms and Chinese for this reason.
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Offline Mr_Shins

Refusing to employ someone in a job because they previously were a sex-worker should (already) be illegal under the sexual discrimination act, but sexual discrimination when it comes to hiring someone is impossible to prove.

Aside from that, when an employer is guilty of discrimination they normally just have to pay monetary compensation (which isn't a great sum for them) and will usually settle without prejudice. I don't think they are ever forced to hire / rehire the person.

They should never feel they are forced to remain in sex work because "nobody else will employ me now my reputation is damaged".

Online daviemac

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From the CPS link...

"The emphasis should be to encourage them to engage with support services and to find routes out of prostitution."

I'm sure a well established independent SP charging £150 an hour, seeing 4 clients a day for 5 days is really going to want to find a route out of a £3k a week income....

(Yes, yes, I know the CPS emphasis is (rightly so) on protecting those coerced/trafficked)
You are cherry picking quotes which gives the wrong impression. That quote is from whether or not it is in the public interest to prosecute. An independent escort as you describe is not breaking the law therefore there is nothing to prosecute them for .

The part of the guidance you have quoted is aimed at those prostitutes who are breaking the law, such as those who solicit in public. They are the ones who should be treated as victims and helped rather than prosecuted. That includes those who work the streets of their own volition.

That section also states those who exploit prostitution will be prosecuted.


Offline Fuggedaboutit

 An independent escort as you describe is not breaking the law therefore there is nothing to prosecute them for .

I don't think what I said suggested that at all. But, if you think it did, then apologies. I was just being tongue in cheek.

However, stated aim of CPS (1st paragraph) "is to help those involved in prostitution to develop routes out", with *no* distinction in that sentence as to whether SPs enter voluntarily or by coercion (even though later emphasis is on coercion). So, if 2 wholly independent SPs work out of the same house (offering duos), it thus becomes a brothel. So would charge/sentencing of both SPs in such a case reflect the stated aim of getting them to consider alternative careers?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 10:38:09 am by Fuggedaboutit »
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Online daviemac

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An independent escort as you describe is not breaking the law therefore there is nothing to prosecute them for .

I don't think what I said suggested that at all. But, if you think it did, then apologies. I was just being tongue in cheek
Like I said you cherry picked one sentence and quoted it out of context.

"The emphasis should be to encourage them to engage with support services and to find routes out of prostitution."  is a statement that those who are breaking the law should be helped and not prosecuted.

You then made a statement about those who are not breaking the law which is totally out of context.

Personally I think it is a good thing that the CPS are taking the stance of coming down hard on the lowlife pimps and helping the girls who are forced to work the streets.

Edit

Try reading it again and understanding what it means. That paragraph refers to whether or not it is in the public interest to prosecute, in order to prosecute there needs to be an offence. Any escort working of her own free will is not commuting any offence.

FFS the escorts aren't breaking the law in a brothel those who run it are.   :dash:

Far better you don't comment on or trivialise something you don't understand.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 10:51:14 am by daviemac »

Offline smiths

At present in London where I punt the top cops use a LOT of their own discretion about whether they choose to enforce the law or not on punting, the so called grey area is in their hands.

The talk for years here has been a Nordic type model so IF you believe that's a more likely scenario than decriminalisation or legalisation as I do then this grey area is the best its going to get.

IMO the Police should concentrate on nicking pimps and leaving willing WGs, and punters alone. There are already enough laws about prostitution in my book.

The CPS site Daviemac posted about above IS the legal bible of punting here and my advice to punters and WGs not sure about the law is read it carefully, along with the Wiki. And thanks to Steely Dan for his work and others for their work on the Wiki over the years. :thumbsup:

Offline funfungoodguy

That report is dated October 2019, before we heard of Covid.

Surely the present rules of meeting strangers, especially for the provision of hands on close encounter services, and 'running a Massage Parlour', as well as going out of your house other than for one of the exempt purposes (that do not include going to visit a prostitute) means that operating as a sex worker (in person - face to face I mean) is currently illegal? as is visiting one, because you'll be out of your house for a non exempt purpose thus liable to being fined - not for actually visiting the SP,  for both of which activities fines are being handed out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 12:10:07 pm by funfungoodguy »

Online daviemac

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That report is dated October 2019, before we heard of Covid.

Surely the present rules of meeting strangers, especially for the provision of hands on close encounter services, and 'running a Massage Parlour', as well as going out of your house other than for one of the exempt purposes (that do not include going to visit a prostitute) means that operating as a sex worker (in person - face to face I mean) is currently illegal? as is visiting one for both of which activities fines are being handed out.
You really don't have a clue do you. If you go out and visit a prostitute, a massage parlour or any other premises for the purpose of sexual activities you are breaking lockdown laws or regulations and you will be fined for breaking lockdown regulations. The reason you have broken the lockdown regulation is totally irrelevant.

Selling and buying sex is still legal, subject to the normal caveats and providing no other law has to be broken in the process.


Offline Fuggedaboutit

Like I said you cherry picked one sentence and quoted it out of context.

"The emphasis should be to encourage them to engage with support services and to find routes out of prostitution."  is a statement that those who are breaking the law should be helped and not prosecuted.

You then made a statement about those who are not breaking the law which is totally out of context.

Personally I think it is a good thing that the CPS are taking the stance of coming down hard on the lowlife pimps and helping the girls who are forced to work the streets.

Yes, and if you look underneath I said it was right that CPS tackled that

Edit

Try reading it again and understanding what it means. That paragraph refers to whether or not it is in the public interest to prosecute, in order to prosecute there needs to be an offence. Any escort working of her own free will is not commuting any offence.

FFS the escorts aren't breaking the law in a brothel those who run it are.   :dash:

If 2 escorts rent a flat/own a house and both work together that is a brothel -
"“It is not illegal to sell sex at a brothel provided the sex worker is not involved in management or control of the brothel. A house occupied by one woman and used by her alone for prostitution, is not a brothel”:Gorman v Standen,Palace Clarke v Standen (1964) 48 Cr App R 30."

Thus a house used by 2 women, even if one of them owns said house, and both are doing it of their own volition, is a brothel. This is the basic thrust of reforms wanted by the ECP - they want girls to have the right to work together in safety in the same house without prosecution for keeping a brothel


Far better you don't comment on or trivialise something you don't understand.

1stly, the thread is about prostitution laws in the UK, not specifically trafficking/coercion. So, not my aim to trivialise AT ALL. We all agree that coercion/trafficking is beyond the pale.

However, genuine question is whether the CPS will in circumstances where girls work freely (but may fall foul of things like soliciting)  encourage them to seek other means of employment. What happens where a girl was pimped, but returns to work in the event she manages to break free of the pimp, but sets up on her own, and then falls foul of something like soliciting? Does the CPS prosecute, or do they try and get them off the game?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 12:22:46 pm by Fuggedaboutit »
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Offline funfungoodguy

Two downloads taken this morning from the government guidelines.


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Offline South1992

Not sure if anyone else has seen this but the Nordic model was discussed in the House of Commons in December 2020, it's under the name of Sexual Exploitation Bill.

'Summary of the Sexual Exploitation Bill 2019-21- A Bill to criminalise paying for sex; to decriminalise selling sex; to create offences relating to enabling or profiting from another person's sexual exploitation; to make associated provision about sexual exploitation online; to make provision for support services for victims of sexual exploitation; and for connected purposes'


So clearly shows support towards the Nordic model being implemented in England Wales. Currently only got to a first hearing with the date of the second hearing still to be announced.


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To read to entire first hearing just use the link below:

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Online daviemac

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1stly, the thread is about prostitution laws in the UK, not specifically trafficking/coercion. So, not my aim to trivialise AT ALL. We all agree that coercion/trafficking is beyond the pale.

However, genuine question is whether the CPS will in circumstances where girls work freely (but may fall foul of things like soliciting)  encourage them to seek other means of employment. What happens where a girl was pimped, but returns to work in the event she manages to break free of the pimp, but sets up on her own, and then falls foul of something like soliciting? Does the CPS prosecute, or do they try and get them off the game?
Do not post in bold when you are talking to me.

Do yourself a favour and stop posting on this you are confusing lockdown laws with prostitution laws.

Those escort who work of their own free will do not solicit therefore do not break the law, the whole paragraph in the CPS guide is aimed at those in a vulnerable position which is why picking one sentence gives a false impression.

Read the whole of the guide and do whatever you like but don't post misleading statements on here.

For the last time it is not illegal for a prostitute to work in a brothel, it is illegal to run one. 2 girls working together do not get prosecuted, the person who owns the premises does.


« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 12:34:32 pm by daviemac »

Online daviemac

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Not sure if anyone else has seen this but the Nordic model was discussed in the House of Commons in December 2020, it's under the name of Sexual Exploitation Bill.

'Summary of the Sexual Exploitation Bill 2019-21- A Bill to criminalise paying for sex; to decriminalise selling sex; to create offences relating to enabling or profiting from another person's sexual exploitation; to make associated provision about sexual exploitation online; to make provision for support services for victims of sexual exploitation; and for connected purposes'


So clearly shows support towards the Nordic model being implemented in England Wales. Currently only got to a first hearing with the date of the second hearing still to be announced.


External Link/Members Only


To read to entire first hearing just use the link below:

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Politics is not allowed.

Offline Silverado

Refusing to employ someone in a job because they previously were a sex-worker should (already) be illegal under the sexual discrimination act, but sexual discrimination when it comes to hiring someone is impossible to prove.

It can't be direct sex discrimination unless the organisation employs former male-prostitutes but not former female - prostitutes. You could (at a push) possibly argue that a policy of not employing former prostitutes or sex- workers is indirect sex discrimination because that category of persons is predominantly female and not male.

It was the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, and not the Sexual Discrimination Act 1975. Nothing to do with "sexual services". Now repealed and replaced by the Equality Act 2010.


Offline lillythesavage

If we are going to read law, investigate the Wg,s situation, as well as researching a good punt and then consider lock down rules, a punt will never happen.


Seems a pointless thread to me on a punters forum, we all know not everyone is operating to the letter of every law. Are we going to consider operating a business from a private residence without consent?

Where will all the reading and investigation end?  Porn hub and a 5 knuckle shuffle :D

Online daviemac

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If we are going to read law, investigate the Wg,s situation, as well as researching a good punt and then consider lock down rules, a punt will never happen.


Seems a pointless thread to me on a punters forum, we all know not everyone is operating to the letter of every law. Are we going to consider operating a business from a private residence without consent?

Where will all the reading and investigation end?  Porn hub and a 5 knuckle shuffle :D
If the thread seems pointless to you why are you reading it and posting on it??   :unknown:

What is or isn't legal in relation to punting is something we all should be fully aware of, ignorance is no excuse in law.

From my experience on this forum it is obvious there is and alarming number of people who have no clue about something they, or others, could be prosecuted for.

Offline smiths

If the thread seems pointless to you why are you reading it and posting on it??   :unknown:

What is or isn't legal in relation to punting is something we all should be fully aware of, ignorance is no excuse in law.

From my experience on this forum it is obvious there is and alarming number of people who have no clue about something they, or others, could be prosecuted for.

And the same in my 12 years of reading punting forums, many many WGs and punters had no idea of the laws around prostitution and some just thought it was all illegal so when they punted they were breaking the law.

Online daviemac

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And the same in my 12 years of reading punting forums, many many WGs and punters had no idea of the laws around prostitution and some just thought it was all illegal so when they punted they were breaking the law.
Discounting the coercion, forced, underage or trafficking side of it which involves pimps, just about the only thing an escort or punter can be prosecuted for is soliciting in public as in curb crawling and street workers. It isn't illegal for a punter to use a brothel or pay anyone for sex and it isn't illegal for a prostitute to work in a brothel or sell sex directly.

Offline Fuggedaboutit

"Do not post in bold when you are talking to me."

Just posting in bold to highlight what I was saying as opposed to what was in your post; not meant as a micro aggression at all. I'll use italics next time

"Do yourself a favour and stop posting on this you are confusing lockdown laws with prostitution laws".

Nope; I'm well aware of the difference.

"the whole paragraph in the CPS guide is aimed at those in a vulnerable position which is why picking one sentence gives a false impression."

OK; fair enough, apologies if I did that

"For the last time it is not illegal for a prostitute to work in a brothel, it is illegal to run one. 2 girls working together do not get prosecuted, the person who owns the premises does."

I never said it was illegal for an SP to work in a brothel. What I'm saying is the situation where 2 girls (freely) work in one premises, which is owned or controlled by one of them is a brothel for legal purposes.

"It is illegal to keep a brothel, i.e. a venue where more than one prostitute works (not
necessarily at the same time). The main offence is keeping a brothel used for prostitution,
the maximum penalty for which is 7 years (s33 Sexual Offences Act 1956, with the
maximum penalty amended by Sexual Offences Act 2003). It is also illegal for a landlord
to let premises to be used as a brothel, or a tenant to permit premises to be used as a brothel
or for prostitution, maximum penalty of six months (s33–36, Sexual Offences Act 1956)"

(House of Commons Home Affairs Committee Prostitution Third Report of Session 2016–17).

On that basis, 1 girl renting a flat (thus a tenant) then inviting another girl in for a duo causes that flat to become a brothel. Nothing to do with coercion at all.



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Online daviemac

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On that basis, 1 girl renting a flat (thus a tenant) then inviting another girl in for a duo causes that flat to become a brothel. Nothing to do with coercion at all.
I can't be bothered trying to decipher what you are on about now so i'll leave you to argue with yourself.

There is no need for you to quote the legislation (if that is what you are trying to do) to me I'm very well aware of it. In fact I'n quite surprised you haven't mentioned when it is legal for two girls to be in a flat.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:03:18 pm by daviemac »

Offline Fuggedaboutit

I can't be bothered trying to decipher what you are on about now so i'll leave you to argue with yourself.


It's quite simple, 2 girls working in one premises (no matter how free of coercion or anything else) can be charged as "running" a brothel. Whether or not PLod can be bothered if there's no coercion involved, or whether the girls are convicted is another matter

If a girl owns her own house and performs a duo with another girl = brothel
If a girl owns her own house and allows another girl to use it for sex = brothel
If a girl rents an apartment (as a tenant) and has duos with another girl = brothel

It's not me making some spurious claim, that's what the law says (and the CPS guidance). Plod have prosecuted plenty of women working together in the same house over the years as "running" a brothel. This is part of the core argument of the English Collective of Prostitutes, i.e. that girls working together for safety should not be prosecuted for this.

As my name suggests, fine, "fuggedaboutit"; I'm not trying to pick an argument for the sake of it, I'm just trying to engage in discussion in relation to an issue that affects those of us who punt.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 03:16:40 pm by Fuggedaboutit »
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Online daviemac

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It's quite simple, 2 girls working in one premises (no matter how free of coercion or anything else) can be charged as "running" a brothel. Whether or not PLod can be bothered if there's no coercion involved, or whether the girls are convicted is another matter

If a girl owns her own house and performs a duo with another girl = brothel
If a girl owns her own house and allows another girl to use it for sex = brothel
If a girl rents an apartment (as a tenant) and has duos with another girl = brothel

It's not me making some spurious claim, that's what the law says (and the CPS guidance). Plod have prosecuted plenty of women working together in the same house over the years as "running" a brothel. This is part of the core argument of the English Collective of Prostitutes, i.e. that girls working together for safety should not be prosecuted for this.

As my name suggests, fine, "fuggedaboutit"; I'm not trying to pick an argument for the sake of it, I'm just trying to engage in discussion in relation to an issue that affects those of us who punt.
Like I keep saying you haven't got a clue. You know a little bit but are discounting an awful lot and I am tired of tying to educate you.

You read the legislation, you interpret it your way but don't post on here what you believe to be fact. leave others to make their own judgement.

One last question for you, how many DLOs are there in the area you punt in. That is a simple straight forward question that can be answered without reference to the CPS.

Offline S.X. MacHine

Just a small point, if I may; references to ‘UK’ law are misleading in that Scotland, England and Northern Ireland have separate legal jurisdictions. Wales too, probably, though I am not sure.
Northern Ireland has adopted the, so called, ‘Nordic Model’ and punters can be prosecuted although, in practise, they are mostly not.
In Scotland prostitution is not currently illegal. However, a committee of the Scottish Parliament is currently examining the law. Worryingly, the chairperson of the committee is Rhoda Grant, a well known feminist, punter hating bigot who has been to the forefront of efforts to have our hobby outlawed. No chance of objectivity or impartiality from her, then.

Offline Steely Dan

Just a small point, if I may; references to ‘UK’ law are misleading in that Scotland, England and Northern Ireland have separate legal jurisdictions. Wales too, probably, though I am not sure.
Northern Ireland has adopted the, so called, ‘Nordic Model’ and punters can be prosecuted although, in practise, they are mostly not.
In Scotland prostitution is not currently illegal. However, a committee of the Scottish Parliament is currently examining the law. Worryingly, the chairperson of the committee is Rhoda Grant, a well known feminist, punter hating bigot who has been to the forefront of efforts to have our hobby outlawed. No chance of objectivity or impartiality from her, then.
Thanks for this comment.  Agree 100%. The point of this thread is to give feedback to the page on punting wiki. That page makes great effort to pick apart England & Wales from Scotland and Northern Ireland.  Do you have some feedback on the page that it is not clear enough or has a factual error on laws in the 4 nations?

In terms of Scotland, the page only reports current law.

Offline Steely Dan


Seems a pointless thread to me on a punters forum, we all know not everyone is operating to the letter of every law. Are we going to consider operating a business from a private residence without consent?

The point of the thread was to get feedback on the puntingwiki 'what about the law' page.  Which many punters and escorts have found helpful.  But several of us want to make it better still.

Have you some feedback on that page?

We have already gotten some helpful feedback, so calling this thread pointless seems already disproven.