Covid compared with AIDS

[RedKettle]

At the beginning of aids, we were told we were all at risk, every family etc ,not true, though curiously not acknowledged ,as for covid, we are not equally at risk either, we have known this for months, yet we are still taking the economy over a cliff.

Your point about Covid is valid and there should be more open discussion about the strategy to deal with. However it my view you turn it into a crazy conspiracy theory by linking with aids as some grand plot. You start to look more David Icke and lose credibility.

[willie loman]

Your point about Covid is valid and there should be more open discussion about the strategy to deal with. However it my view you turn it into a crazy conspiracy theory by linking with aids as some grand plot. You start to look more David Icke and lose credibility.

I am not making any link, merely pointing out similarities, obvious to any one with even a casual interest in the world about us, the only link i make about covo and aids, is the remarkable credulity of the general public, that is a private opinion, nothing to do with any conspiracy., i never felt a flicker of fear about aids, and feel exactly the same about covo.

[Gordon Bennett]

I don't know if things have changed but NOBODY died of AIDS in the years after it arrived. It was never mentioned on death certificates - cause of death would be something like pneumonia. Obviously this was technically true, AIDS weakened the immune system and victim succumbed to a bout of pneumonia.
I find it weird how today, health authorities have the reverse approach and when a 98 year-old riddled with cancer, Parkinson's, dementia and lung disease dies they contort themselves to get Covid printed on the death certificate.

[Gordon Bennett]

A staff member in my work, last April, lost his life to covid-19, the boy was 35 years old, and no underlying health conditions

As of end of September, 35 people aged under 39 with no pre-existing health condition have died in England with covid. 35 out of a population of 56000000. You're far more likely to know a healthy under 40 who got murdered this year rather than died of covid.
Frankly, Covid is about as dangerous to a youngster as a bee or a peanut.

[Doc Holliday]

I don't know if things have changed but NOBODY died of AIDS in the years after it arrived. It was never mentioned on death certificates - cause of death would be something like pneumonia. Obviously this was technically true, AIDS weakened the immune system and victim succumbed to a bout of pneumonia.
I find it weird how today, health authorities have the reverse approach and when a 98 year-old riddled with cancer, Parkinson's, dementia and lung disease dies they contort themselves to get Covid printed on the death certificate.

With all due respect that post is utter nonsense.

[ratedj]

With all due respect that post is utter nonsense.

+1. I'm completely perplexed and overwhelmed with total amazement.

[Squire Haggard]

With all due respect that post is utter nonsense.

My flabber has never been so gasted.

[Gordon Bennett]

With all due respect that post is utter nonsense.

But every part of the post is 100% true - where exactly is the "nonsense"?

[Doc Holliday]

But every part of the post is 100% true - where exactly is the "nonsense"?

You are correct that in the UK throughout the nineties there was an issue with HIV/AIDS not been included on death certificates and death data/stats was gathered via other sources. This changed from around 2001.

The rest of the post is nonsense. Happy for you to provide evidence to the contrary? For example Health Authorities have no part in completing death certificates, so that knocks down your 100% true for starters.

[Wadebridge]

With regard to the thread title ...
There is absolutely no comparison between Covid and AIDS.
Not in a million years.
In spite of the hard hitting adverts of the '80s, I always considered AIDS to be a disease inflicting a far away land; Africa.
The small proportion of UK sufferers here living with the disease; e.g. parts of the gay community, or haemophiliacs requiring frequent blood transfusions; might as well have been thousands of miles away in terms of their risk and danger to me, my lifestyle and acquaintance.
Covid-19, on the other hand, with its sinister infectibility; its unpredictability, and its lethality, has affected every part of my life.
It has impacted upon our ability to live life to the full.
The futile measures to try to deal with the outbreak; internment; mask and visor wearing, social distancing; travel restrictions; inhibited entertainment; is by itself inflicting untold harm on the state of mind, and welfare of citizens who've not yet caught the virus.
And as we've seen, several who've caught the virus and recovered are now left with an impaired quality of life, some life changingly so.
The lifestyle we are now living has led to a deep seated depression and anxiety. It has for me. I suspect a large % of the country's population feel the same.
As the realisation clunks home with a thud ...
As the slow reality dawns ...
The 'new normal' is here to stay ...
2020 is the year that will be remembered as true 'annus horribilis'; the year our lives were changed forever ...
What a dreadfully awful prospect.
It is the way that we ordinary citizens will be expected to, and possibly ordered to, behave and live from now on.
Internment and restrictive controls ...
New distanced behaviours ...
I'm talking several years into the future ...
5 years ...
7 years ...
maybe even longer.
Man can create evil, but he can never control it.

[Gordon Bennett]

You are correct that in the UK throughout the nineties there was an issue with HIV/AIDS not been included on death certificates and death data/stats was gathered via other sources. This changed from around 2001.

The rest of the post is nonsense. Happy for you to provide evidence to the contrary? For example Health Authorities have no part in completing death certificates, so that knocks down your 100% true for starters.

Doc, I know you understand that my fundamental point relates to the fact that AIDS was not mentioned on a single death certificate from 1985 - 1992, a period that had about 5000 AIDS deaths. So, an otherwise healthy fit young person that manifestly dies from AIDS does not have it mentioned at all on their death certificate. Yet, it is very clear today that a lot of very old, very infirm people who are teetering on the brink of death are getting Covid put on their death certificates. It is very clear that the appetite to put Covid on a death certificate is directly opposite to the lack of appetite that prevailed for many years to put AIDS  on a death certificate. Does this matter? What does it mean? Does anyone care? I just find it interesting..

[Doc Holliday]

Gordon you said this

they contort themselves to get Covid printed on the death certificate.

It is very clear that the appetite to put Covid on a death certificate

Where is the evidence that doctors are contorting themselves or have some kind of 'appetite' to find a way of putting Covid on a death certificate? It is not clear to me?

When you next see your GP try suggesting this perception to him .. but make sure he doesn't have a syringe in his hand at the time 

External Link/Members Only

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record for having posted it so many times previously, Shipman changed everything in healthcare, in particular scrutiny of death certification.

Certification is somewhat complex and is about recording the sequence of events that led to the death in an attempt to establish the underlying cause as well as recording any other contributory causes. It is not always an exact science

See section 4.1 here (and yes I have posted this link before too)    External Link/Members Only You can see it is not straightforward.

There are huge valid discussions about interpreting data on deaths, but there is very little validity in your perception that the entries on death certificates are in some way being consciously distorted by those who complete them.

Finally in terms of the comparison with AIDS,  Covid19 is a notifiable disease whereas HIV/AIDS is not. This means there is a separate reporting pathway to PHE that Doctors must complete, in addition to Death Certification.

[daviemac]

Doc, I know you understand that my fundamental point relates to the fact that AIDS was not mentioned on a single death certificate from 1985 - 1992, a period that had about 5000 AIDS deaths. So, an otherwise healthy fit young person that manifestly dies from AIDS does not have it mentioned at all on their death certificate. Yet, it is very clear today that a lot of very old, very infirm people who are teetering on the brink of death are getting Covid put on their death certificates. It is very clear that the appetite to put Covid on a death certificate is directly opposite to the lack of appetite that prevailed for many years to put AIDS  on a death certificate. Does this matter? What does it mean? Does anyone care? I just find it interesting..

just curious, how do you know what's been put on an individual's death certificate.   

[Chorley]

With regard to the thread title ...
There is absolutely no comparison between Covid and AIDS.
Not in a million years.
In spite of the hard hitting adverts of the '80s, I always considered AIDS to be a disease inflicting a far away land; Africa.
The small proportion of UK sufferers here living with the disease; e.g. parts of the gay community, or haemophiliacs requiring frequent blood transfusions; might as well have been thousands of miles away in terms of their risk and danger to me, my lifestyle and acquaintance.
Covid-19, on the other hand, with its sinister infectibility; its unpredictability, and its lethality, has affected every part of my life.
It has impacted upon our ability to live life to the full.
The futile measures to try to deal with the outbreak; internment; mask and visor wearing, social distancing; travel restrictions; inhibited entertainment; is by itself inflicting untold harm on the state of mind, and welfare of citizens who've not yet caught the virus.
And as we've seen, several who've caught the virus and recovered are now left with an impaired quality of life, some life changingly so.
The lifestyle we are now living has led to a deep seated depression and anxiety. It has for me. I suspect a large % of the country's population feel the same.
As the realisation clunks home with a thud ...
As the slow reality dawns ...
The 'new normal' is here to stay ...
2020 is the year that will be remembered as true 'annus horribilis'; the year our lives were changed forever ...
What a dreadfully awful prospect.
It is the way that we ordinary citizens will be expected to, and possibly ordered to, behave and live from now on.
Internment and restrictive controls ...
New distanced behaviours ...
I'm talking several years into the future ...
5 years ...
7 years ...
maybe even longer.
Man can create evil, but he can never control it.

It won't last that long without serious public disorder.I'm talking at least on the level of  the 2010 riots-if not more violent and widespread.

 And it won't be 5-7 years-more like 5-7 months until people get seriously pissed off and start pushing back. Once the winter kicks in you'll notice a massive change in mood. Yes, some people will be depressed and anxious, but there will also be any number of angry, disillusioned citizens feeling that they're not being listened to and that action needs to be taken.

And that's just in the UK. I reckon Covid might well be the thing that tips the US into an all out civil war. I don't imagine and all the good ole' boys with a barn full of guns and their BLM adversaries even need an excuse to start shooting when the shit hits the fan. 

[Scotpunter]

It won't last that long without serious public disorder.I'm talking at least on the level of  the 2010 riots-if not more violent and widespread.

 And it won't be 5-7 years-more like 5-7 months until people get seriously pissed off and start pushing back. Once the winter kicks in you'll notice a massive change in mood. Yes, some people will be depressed and anxious, but there will also be any number of angry, disillusioned citizens feeling that they're not being listened to and that action needs to be taken.

And that's just in the UK. I reckon Covid might well be the thing that tips the US into an all out civil war. I don't imagine and all the good ole' boys with a barn full of guns and their BLM adversaries even need an excuse to start shooting when the shit hits the fan. 

I am actually amazed there hasn't been more civil disorder across the world so far. For the UK the only thing that has stopped it is the public purse paying people to stay at home. We are now at a stage of those businesses they once were employed by are no longer there and they are getting Jobseekers, then the shit will hit the fan.

[Gordon Bennett]

just curious, how do you know what's been put on an individual's death certificate.   

Sorry, I've been ignoring this thread since getting hectored so I had no idea there was an outstanding question to address. I popped back to post a link to a recent news article about falling AIDS cases and then noticed the question.

Here's link to the article: External Link/Members Only

Anyway, as to your question, it was my job to know back then but aside from that, it's all public record. This MPs question is a bit old now but it fully covers that period: External Link/Members Only

One thing. Aside from the death certificates, I saw additional paperwork about the handling of their corpses too so I knew extra information not mentioned on death certificate about their background. Three of the first 10 AIDS deaths in UK all had the same profession - my personal view at that time was the government would not want that profession to be associated with the "Gay Plague" and hence AIDS did not get a mention. Maybe it wasn't sinister and it was merely not wanting to cause embarrassment to the families of the deceased (these men were not outwardly gay)? Whatever, my experience at that time led me to realise that the humble death certificate can be a very sensitive socio-political tool depending on what gets written on it (or not written on it).

[paper7]

Tell that to the relatives of the 1.1 million people who have died from it.

You beat me to it. You can look at the bare stats BUT it's somebody's family member that's been struck down and a family's life been ripped apart.

1.251 now. It may 'thin out the population' but every death is a tragedy.

[Doc Holliday]

Sorry, I've been ignoring this thread since getting hectored

Wimp