Covid compared with AIDS

[binbag]

For those of you old enough to remember the outbreak of AIDS, how do you think this current pandemic compares. I remember hearing that HIV was the greatest known threat to humans but this seems worse. Or am I just old and tired?

[JontyR]

You'd have to go out of your way to catch AIDS in Aldi.

[JontyR]

More seriously I don't remember the threat being said that AIDS was ever going to kill 500,000 in the UK within a year.

I sort of remember that there was a worry that HIV would mutate or merge with a more easily transferable (airborne) virus, but I don't think it was given any real thought beyond mentioning it. Probably because there would have been pretty much jack all we could have done about it.

I remember the leaflet that went to everyone's house, it listed that those under major threat were homosexuals, hemophiliacs, the people of Haiti. I don't remember whether intravenous drug users were mentioned or not.

[timsussex]

there was a cartoon reflecting a popular view at the time that only druggies and queers got Aids which showed a homosexual couple getting struck by lightning with a voice from above "DON'T DO THAT!"

Times were less enlightened then and AIDS started spreading to the "normal" population - or at least those who considered themselves normal.
Remember that homosexual acts between men - even in private - were illegal until 1967 and a sizeable minority or even a majority of the population thought MPs were a  bunch of poofters passing the change in the law

[BobAJobMan]

No, it's different. HIV you know you can protect yourself (except perhaps from a blood transfusion in the 80s). COVID you're a lot more likely to catch but it's a bit like Russian roulette as to whether you're going to be ill.

[Blackpool Rock]

there was a cartoon reflecting a popular view at the time that only druggies and queers got Aids which showed a homosexual couple getting struck by lightning with a voice from above "DON'T DO THAT!"

Times were less enlightened then and AIDS started spreading to the "normal" population - or at least those who considered themselves normal.
Remember that homosexual acts between men - even in private - were illegal until 1967 and a sizeable minority or even a majority of the population thought MPs were a  bunch of poofters passing the change in the law

I don't remember the cartoon but I do remember a lot of people going around seemingly not that bothered due to as you say quoting that "it was a good thing as it killed off queers and junkies"
I also remember the joke about what does AIDS stand for - Ass injected death sentence

As you say times and thinking were very different back then and it was of course before we knew about HIV which obviously leads to Aids and everything was just lumped together under one banner.

Can't remember if it was an official announcement but I do remember someone saying that "They recon" in 5 years time everyone will at least know someone who either has it or has died from it.
The prophecy of doom didn't come true but as it spread or was rather identified in more people the general population started taking it more seriously as it wasn't fully understood how it could and couldn't be caught, I recall someone at work claiming it could be caught from touching items such as door handles if someone with aids had just opened the same door

I believe that HIV isn't actually that easy to catch whereas CV19 can be caught just from close contact with an infected person so clearly a much higher risk than HIV, realistically CV19 has probably killed more people in this country than HIV / Aids ever will

[smiths]

For those of you old enough to remember the outbreak of AIDS, how do you think this current pandemic compares. I remember hearing that HIV was the greatest known threat to humans but this seems worse. Or am I just old and tired?

I vividly recall the big AIDS campaign with John Hurts voice booming the doom and gloom and it really was going to wipe humans out if you listened to some so called experts at the time. In fact unknown then AIDS had been mutating and developing since 1920s Kinshasa, it wasn't new, in the mid-60s it started to take off in documented cases of the period, Doctors having no idea what it was. As we know it wasn't until 1981 or so that it became very noticeable due to Homosexuals in the US who were fucking each other up the arse BB many with multiple partners which upped the chances of getting it.

With AIDS medical science hasn't been able to find an outright cure but it has been able to offer life long drugs if detected soon enough. I have no doubt with Covid there will be a cure, a vaccine that eventually will be very effective, its how long this will take and how long to get it to people that's the big thing for me. For some people Covid is worse as its easier to catch it, you can avoid sexual contact, its harder to avoid other humans for long periods of time who may have it and even they may not know they have it. Apart from the elderly and health impaired it seems its luck how your body can deal with Covid, but if your fit and young you have more chance of getting over it. The biggest problem is its still in the early stages, BUT like with AIDS is it really in the early stages or will it turn out its been brewing for many years, we shall see.

[Digby232]

But aids and HIV are serious illnesses where Covid is not serious for the vast majority of the worlds population! Quite a few people in my neighbourhood had covid. I know four nurses who tested positive for the antibodies and not one had been ill at all!

[daviemac]

But aids and HIV are serious illnesses where Covid is not serious for the vast majority of the worlds population! Quite a few people in my neighbourhood had covid. I know four nurses who tested positive for the antibodies and not one had been ill at all!

Tell that to the relatives of the 1.1 million people who have died from it.

[Digby232]

33 million have died from aids ! Far less people had aids than covid! Covid has a very low death rate compared to aids. Cancer will kill more than covid yet millions take no action to try to stop that. Still smoke and eat till obese yet wear a face mask incase they catch covid. Stop smoking , drinking and eating so much and you got a good chance of covid not killing you.

[Hobbit]

Tell that to the relatives of the 1.1 million people who have died from it.

Not all of them died from it. They had it but not all died from it. There is a common misconception regarding this which even the government admitted to miscalculated deaths.

[daviemac]

33 million have died from aids ! Far less people had aids than covid! Covid has a very low death rate compared to aids. Cancer will kill more than covid yet millions take no action to try to stop that. Still smoke and eat till obese yet wear a face mask incase they catch covid. Stop smoking , drinking and eating so much and you got a good chance of covid not killing you.

33 million have died of aids in 30 years, the vast majority during the early days, aids is no longer the death sentence it once was. Contracting aids is avoidable. 1.1 million have died of COVID this year alone, 10 months. It is not possible to avoid contracting CV-19 in the same way.

In 2019 690,000 died of aids such is the improvement in treatment.  I think 1.1 million deaths from CV-19 in 10 months outweighs 690,000 in 12.

Anyway you carry on with your 'nothing to worry about' attitude.

[daviemac]

Not all of them died from it. They had it but not all died from it. There is a common misconception regarding this which even the government admitted to miscalculated deaths.

It's a thing that can never be proved one way or another, did having COVID accelerate their demise or would they have died anyway regardless of CV. The only things we know for sure are those 1.1 million had COVID when they did die and every one will die one day with or without COVID.

[Hobbit]

It's a thing that can never be proved one way or another, did having COVID accelerate their demise or would they have died anyway regardless of CV. The only things we know for sure are those 1.1 million had COVID when they did die and every one will die one day with or without COVID.

Exactly. And that is why many people doubt the statistics because they neither prove nor disprove anything.

My opinion and this is only my opinion, is that there is possibly a hidden agenda behind all of this but we don't know what and may never know.

[Doc Holliday]

You'd have to go out of your way to catch AIDS in Aldi.

But not my local Asda 

As someone who was at the 'healthcare coalface' during the 80s I can tell you that the transmission of HIV was equally as worrying albeit for slightly different reasons. Given that it became apparent it was a blood borne virus the implications of such were enormous. Thankfully we were fortunate and the rest as they say is history.

.. realistically CV19 has probably killed more people in this country than HIV / Aids ever will

I think the total UK deaths since day one is between 25K to 30K which from memory peaked at under 2000 circa 1995. By 2010 this was down to around 500 a year and now is about half that although some more HIV+ patients die of other largely unrelated causes. There are tens of thousands in the UK living with HIV but at a cost of at least £1 billion a year. The financial cost of Covid ......?

However any discussion of HIV must be on a global scale were the UK stats are not representative of the overall picture.

HIV is a weak and almost entirely preventable virus with lifestyle protocols and behavioural changes. Covid prevention long term remains to be seen, but behavioural changes are also important short term and have also been found lacking?

[Doc Holliday]

Exactly. And that is why many people doubt the statistics because they neither prove nor disprove anything.

My opinion and this is only my opinion, is that there is possibly a hidden agenda behind all of this but we don't know what and may never know.

I've said this before but, 'post Shipman', when a doctor includes Covid on a UK death certificate Covid has played some part in that death. This entry has so far appeared on circa 58.000 death certificates. That is an accurate statistic.

[Chorley]

Exactly. And that is why many people doubt the statistics because they neither prove nor disprove anything.

My opinion and this is only my opinion, is that there is possibly a hidden agenda behind all of this but we don't know what and may never know.

What do you think the hidden agenda is. Its a genuine question and not trolling. 

[j4247]

If you’re otherwise fit and healthy and under the age of 70ish you have a vanishingly small chance of being killed by Covid.

If under 40 and fit and healthy and not fat then it’s not even worth worrying about other than the chance you could pass it on to someone more vulnerable (who you probably should be staying clear of and they of you).

[willie loman]

At the time , we were told every family in britain would have a member who who would die of aids, basically we would be stepping over the bodies on the way to work, it was claimed that it was spread by exchange of body fluids, i.e. kissing and semen, i have been struck over the years that not one famous hetero sexual caught or died from aids. Yes it is blood borne, and if this had been admitted from day one, we would have dealt with aids in a more rational manner.

[Blackpool Rock]

At the time , we were told every family in britain would have a member who who would die of aids, basically we would be stepping over the bodies on the way to work, it was claimed that it was spread by exchange of body fluids, i.e. kissing and semen, i have been struck over the years that not one famous hetero sexual caught or died from aids. Yes it is blood borne, and if this had been admitted from day one, we would have dealt with aids in a more rational manner.

So are you saying that Governments / the WHO etc knew how it was spread but put a message out that was an over reaction just to scare people into making sure they kept safe 
I was under the impression they didn't necessarily know all of the facts but there were some known transmission routes and others which were possible or theoretical

In terms of body fluids I thought there was actually a risk from semen 

[willie loman]

So are you saying that Governments / the WHO etc knew how it was spread but put a message out that was an over reaction just to scare people into making sure they kept safe 
I was under the impression they didn't necessarily know all of the facts but there were some known transmission routes and others which were possible or theoretical

In terms of body fluids I thought there was actually a risk from semen 

It was clear early on that the real risk was blood to blood, hence drug addicts,those receiving a transfusion of infected blood, and anal sex, made up most of the victims, if it was spread by swallowing semen, casualty rates would have been sky high, i have no idea why the message of body fluids was put out, what surprised me , was the amount of people who believed it.

[JamesKW]

Tell that to the relatives of the 1.1 million people who have died from it.

32 million people have died from AIDS,there are still almost 700,000 deaths every year,forty years on,there is still no vaccine though you can manage it,alot of those that died from AIDS are young, not in their 80s.

[Hobbit]

What do you think the hidden agenda is. Its a genuine question and not trolling. 

And that is the $1 million question! I have sat here and pondered this many times so have a few other people that also think there may be an agenda. It's really hard to say, it could be anything from financially driven to control of society or population. There are many conspiracies but like I said these are just conspiracies and nobody knows for sure. Hence, why I said it's just my opinion and I'm not saying it's true or not true but I just have a gut feeling based on what's going on around the world and all the facts regarding statistics et cetera that there may be more to this than meets the eye.

However, at the same time as we don't know for sure, we should play it safe and be careful.

[JamesKW]

However, at the same time as we don't know for sure, we should play it safe and be careful.

Even if there was a conspiracy theory we would never find out,for some dictators in the World COVID has suited their agenda to control the population and stay in power.

[daviemac]

32 million people have died from AIDS,there are still almost 700,000 deaths every year,forty years on,there is still no vaccine though you can manage it,alot of those that died from AIDS are young, not in their 80s.

Please take note of the last line of my previous post to you and leave me out of any discussions you want to have, as far as I'm concerned, in my opinion, the old saying that arguing with an idiot is pointless as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience, is very apt in this case.

Anyway you carry on with your 'nothing to worry about' attitude.

[Xtro]

This is interesting, The Strecker Memorandum - Dr. Robert B. Strecker -
External Link/Members Only

[Squire Haggard]

I would love to know more about this 'hidden agenda' and 'agenda to control the population.' 

I hope that I'm not wearing a mask and taking other precautions because of someone's 'agenda'. 

If the virus does not kill you, it can still cause lasting damage. Its agenda is the only one that concerns me. The politicians can fuck off. 



''(Reuters) - Britain’s Oxford University said on Monday initial findings from a study on the long term impact of COVID-19 has found that a large number of patients discharged from hospitals still experience symptoms of breathlessness, fatigue, anxiety and depression two to three months after contracting the virus.

The scientists also detected abnormalities in multiple organs and believe persistent inflammation may be a factor for COVID-19 survivors, the university said in a statement.''

External Link/Members Only

[Hobbit]

I would love to know more about this 'hidden agenda' and 'agenda to control the population.' 

I hope that I'm not wearing a mask and taking other precautions because of someone's 'agenda'. 

If the virus does not kill you, it can still cause lasting damage. Its agenda is the only one that concerns me. The politicians can fuck off. 



''(Reuters) - Britain’s Oxford University said on Monday initial findings from a study on the long term impact of COVID-19 has found that a large number of patients discharged from hospitals still experience symptoms of breathlessness, fatigue, anxiety and depression two to three months after contracting the virus.

The scientists also detected abnormalities in multiple organs and believe persistent inflammation may be a factor for COVID-19 survivors, the university said in a statement.''

External Link/Members Only

Ah, the old philosophical debate of free will. Do we wear masks because we choose to or are we controlled by fear or the governments? Are we even able to make an independent choice? All very intriguing questions. Hmm....where's my cigar? 

[Squire Haggard]

I wear one and take other precautions to minimise my chances of catching Covid 19.  My contempt for governments is almost total.

[Hobbit]

I wear one and take other precautions to minimise my chances of catching Covid 19.  My contempt for governments is almost total.

So, is it a conscious choice or made out of fear? Are we even able to make a conscious choice without knowing the "real" facts?

[Squire Haggard]

So, is it a conscious choice or made out of fear? Are we even able to make a conscious choice without knowing the "real" facts?

I dont know about you, but I make a choice out of the facts, and not out of irrational fear. You seem to be saying that fear of Covid 19 is irrational, and that there's a 'hidden agenda' somewhere. Do explain the 'hidden agenda.'

[Ali Katt]

For those of you old enough to remember the outbreak of AIDS, how do you think this current pandemic compares. I remember hearing that HIV was the greatest known threat to humans but this seems worse. Or am I just old and tired?

I had the same conversation with someone recently he said it will be this generations AIDS. The guy did seem a bit on the spectrum though and I'm not talking the ZX81.

[Hobbit]

I dont know about you, but I make a choice out of the facts, and not out of irrational fear. You seem to be saying that fear of Covid 19 is irrational, and that there's a 'hidden agenda' somewhere. Do explain the 'hidden agenda.'

No. I'm not saying that the fear of Covid is irrational. Obviously, it's not Covid that people are afraid of, its death and that is certainly a valid fear that we all have, especially me. I have feared that all my life and still do, I guess it's the unknown that is the most frightening.

My basic question was merely about the concept of choice and whether it's independently chosen by us or dictated to us? You see, I'm a born philosopher and have always been fascinated with these types of questions as they really make me think. Many of us think that we think but many don't think at all.

[Doc Holliday]

It was clear early on that the real risk was blood to blood, hence drug addicts,those receiving a transfusion of infected blood, and anal sex, made up most of the victims, if it was spread by swallowing semen, casualty rates would have been sky high, i have no idea why the message of body fluids was put out, what surprised me , was the amount of people who believed it.

It was far from clear early on. When it was discovered that the new disease was caused by a virus, it was then found to be present in many body fluids including semen, vaginal/anal fluids and saliva (although only trace levels) as well as blood.

It then takes time to establish transmission risk. Fortunately it turned out to be a weak virus in terms of transmission which was easily destroyed and does not survive for long outside of the body. Gradually we were able to establish the levels of those risks factors, which even over the last decade have changed because of the effectiveness of treatment.

For example I recall health care workers who sustained needlestick injuries during that early period and who feared the worst. It is only after you have investigated a significant number of such relatively rare events over a period of time that you can establish that the risk is actually very low .... 1 in 300+ ... and assuming the patient involved is HIV positive of course. Today for those patients who are being successfully treated the risk is reduced even more.

[willie loman]

It was far from clear early on. When it was discovered that the new disease was caused by a virus, it was then found to be present in many body fluids including semen, vaginal/anal fluids and saliva (although only trace levels) as well as blood.

It then takes time to establish transmission risk. Fortunately it turned out to be a weak virus in terms of transmission which was easily destroyed and does not survive for long outside of the body. Gradually we were able to establish the levels of those risks factors, which even over the last decade have changed because of the effectiveness of treatment.

For example I recall health care workers who sustained needlestick injuries during that early period and who feared the worst. It is only after you have investigated a significant number of such relatively rare events over a period of time that you can establish that the risk is actually very low .... 1 in 300+ ... and assuming the patient involved is HIV positive of course. Today for those patients who are being successfully treated the risk is reduced even more.

just knew you would reply contradicting me, there were as i assume you know, cultural reasons for pretending we were all at risk, hence the absurd idea that we could get it from having a snog, lots of money and time wasted, not unlike covid, eh?

[Waterhouse]

At the time , we were told every family in britain would have a member who who would die of aids, basically we would be stepping over the bodies on the way to work, it was claimed that it was spread by exchange of body fluids, i.e. kissing and semen, i have been struck over the years that not one famous hetero sexual caught or died from aids. Yes it is blood borne, and if this had been admitted from day one, we would have dealt with aids in a more rational manner.

External Link/Members Only

[Digby232]

Why fear death? You just go to sleep and thats it no more waking up. Just like before you were born nothing!!!

[willie loman]

External Link/Members Only

perhaps i should have specified a celebrity  who contracted the disease from hetero sexual sex, as this forum has showed on many occasions, many people are actually bi sexual.

[Strawberry]

HIV isn't transmitted during everyday population - wide activities, doesn't transmit easily and only during very specific activities.

HIV does carry a very high stigma, fear and plenty of myth.

SARS-CoV-2 as I understand is transmitted via droplets carried in breath or transferred by hand to mouth, eyes, nostrils. Activities all human beings engage in frequently.

[Doc Holliday]

just knew you would reply contradicting me ...

It's not deliberate Willy. I can't help it if giving the facts contradicts your statement 

.., there were as i assume you know, cultural reasons for pretending we were all at risk, hence the absurd idea that we could get it from having a snog, lots of money and time wasted, not unlike covid, eh?

Not sure I fully understand that bit? Can you clarify cultural reasons? I don't ever recall the scientific community or the UK Government suggesting a snog was dangerous? There was widespread fear which led to such perceptions I agree.
The UK's public health policy and campaign in the mid eighties, although controversial at the time, is now generally well acclaimed and judged successful.

[willie loman]

It's not deliberate Willy. I can't help it if giving the facts contradicts your statement 

Not sure I fully understand that bit? Can you clarify cultural reasons? I don't ever recall the scientific community or the UK Government suggesting a snog was dangerous? There was widespread fear which led to such perceptions I agree.
The UK's public health policy and campaign in the mid eighties, although controversial at the time, is now generally well acclaimed and judged successful.

It was considered politically socially ,unacceptable if it was stated that aids was essentially a gay disease,as far as sexual activities went, so the govt policy was that we were all at risk, manifest baloney,and it was transmitted by exchange of body fluids, that includes snogging. In what sense was the campaign successful? Absolutely no change in hetero sexual behaviour, in fact we have become way more sexually reckless with every year that passes. In fact until i began paying for sex about 15 years ago, i had never used a condom, and that i imagine applies to most of us.

[willie loman]

HIV isn't transmitted during everyday population - wide activities, doesn't transmit easily and only during very specific activities.

HIV does carry a very high stigma, fear and plenty of myth.

SARS-CoV-2 as I understand is transmitted via droplets carried in breath or transferred by hand to mouth, eyes, nostrils. Activities all human beings engage in frequently.

At the beginning of aids, we were told we were all at risk, every family etc ,not true, though curiously not acknowledged ,as for covid, we are not equally at risk either, we have known this for months, yet we are still taking the economy over a cliff.

[myothernameis]

If you’re otherwise fit and healthy and under the age of 70ish you have a vanishingly small chance of being killed by Covid.

If under 40 and fit and healthy and not fat then it’s not even worth worrying about other than the chance you could pass it on to someone more vulnerable (who you probably should be staying clear of and they of you).

A staff member in my work, last April, lost his life to covid-19, the boy was 35 years old, and no underlying health conditions

[willie loman]

A staff member in my work, last April, lost his life to covid-19, the boy was 35 years old, and no underlying health conditions

And thats your contribution to a debate? there might be 4 million unemployed next year. Can we please have an end to people citing their next door neighbour dying, as if thats a conclusive argument for lockdown.

[Doc Holliday]

It was considered politically socially ,unacceptable if it was stated that aids was essentially a gay disease,as far as sexual activities went, so the govt policy was that we were all at risk,

Yes that was an issue and it was indeed to a degree targeted at everyone.

.. so the govt policy was that we were all at risk, manifest baloney, and it was transmitted by exchange of body fluids, that includes snogging.

As I said before that is not what the government said. This was the infamous 'Don't die of ignorance' leaflet from 1986 which specifically mentions anal sex.

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In what sense was the campaign successful? Absolutely no change in hetero sexual behaviour, in fact we have become way more sexually reckless with every year that passes.

There were huge changes in heterosexual behaviour and condom use during the late eighties and nineties in the UK. and even greater change amongst the vulnerable groups. Rates of the common STIs dropped to record low levels. It was only in the last two decades that complacency has gradually crept in again although HIV in the UK has remained stable.

With regard to success as a public health campaign see here External Link/Members Only

[willie loman]

Yes that was an issue and it was indeed to a degree targeted at everyone.

As I said before that is not what the government said. This was the infamous 'Don't die of ignorance' leaflet from 1986 which specifically mentions anal sex.

External Link/Members Only

There were huge changes in heterosexual behaviour and condom use during the late eighties and nineties in the UK. and even greater change amongst the vulnerable groups. Rates of the common STIs dropped to record low levels. It was only in the last two decades that complacency has gradually crept in again although HIV in the UK has remained stable.

With regard to success as a public health campaign see here External Link/Members Only

As ever thanks for the effort you put into replying. i suppose the only real indication of change in heterosexual behaviour would be sales of condoms, its not what people say they do that matters, doesnt change the fact, that aids was indeed a gay problem,in advanced countries but for political reasons this could not be admitted

[Doc Holliday]

... doesnt change the fact, that aids was indeed a gay problem, but for political reasons this could not be admitted

Yes I agree it was a problem, although interestingly the real driving force behind the safe sex message and before the UK government finally got their act together, was the gay community and their groups/charities.

In the UK the Terence Higgins Trust which formed following the death of Terry himself in 1982 became extremely proactive and influential and involved in research etc something they have continued to do to the present day.

[robsmith149]

Does anyone know the figures of how many straight men have died of aids in this country?

[binbag]

I remember there was a lot of uncertainty (ignorance?) back then because, like now, there was so much contradictory information. As in any crisis some of the messages given out are true, some not, others partially true. Sometimes the info is wrong by mistake , sometimes it's put forward deliberately. I remember huge opposition and moral indignation towards the idea that it was mainly hitting the gay community. Any sexual activity was supposedly a risk plus needle use and there were some notable cases from blood transfusions. Looking back it does seem true that it mainly was a 'gay disease' but that was denied vociferously at the time. The big change that I saw was condom use. I never used condoms until that time and I don't think I was alone. When I see a WG I always wear them but I often wonder is the BB risk as high as we are led to believe. Before AIDS it didn't seem much of an issue and since then there doesn't seem much evidence of hetero sexuals contracting it from each other from oral/vaginal sex. Condoms, of course, protect us from several other things too so I'm not saying they shouldn't be used but I do suspect we were misled about the necessity during the AIDS scare.  Another thing that changed at that time was people began speaking more openly about sex - all aspects. It started to become less of a taboo subject which I see as hugely beneficial to society.
As has been said above, Covid is associated with everyday behaviour rather than sexual activity so it's a very different type of crisis but it'll be interesting to see what changes it'll bring to society in the long run. One change I don't think it'll bring is greater trust in politicians and 'experts'. In the meantime happy fucking to one and all.

[Strawberry]

Does this help?

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