Anyone else feel tracing app close to Gattaca ?

[GreyDave]

Gattaca  Dna film in Future

DNA is your label from day one and you can be traced by it and this app  wont collect personal info ?

Might be used to limit our travel and reason for ? Already although not stopping us useing cash it is being made more difficult .

[lostandfound]

When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.

Although, having said that, I pay for my punts in cash.

GD, I think we may have found common ground! 

[tesla]

tracing app will only work if you download it

[sparkus]

It's a good film but given that the virus doesn't discriminate I don't see your point? I accept it could be the 'thin end of the wedge'.

[lostandfound]

It's a good film but given that the virus doesn't discriminate I don't see your point? I accept it could be the 'thin end of the wedge'.

Have to admit, I wish to see our lot held to the same standard as other countries, in terms of respecting the privacy of the individual. If other countries in Europe, and the US, can make a decentralised system work, I don't wish to see our government having a centralised database showing all of our movements.

[Blackpool Rock]

Mmmm not sure how it works but can you imaging getting a warning message from being close to an infected person in the waiting area of a massage parlour 
Once infected you then need to give details so that you can get treatment but I can imagine the scenario where your OH starts asking you questions like "So where did the app say you may have picked it up" 

[sparkus]

Mmmm not sure how it works but can you imaging getting a warning message from being close to an infected person in the waiting area of a massage parlour 
Once infected you then need to give details so that you can get treatment but I can imagine the scenario where your OH starts asking you questions like "So where did the app say you may have picked it up" 

Surely that's one of the privacy concerns the app will be addressing?

Otherwise a few Tories will be resigning to "spend more time with their families".

[johnbanebridge]

I am hoping they get the app sorted soon. I want this lockdown over.

[tesla]

I don't wish to see our government having a centralised database showing all of our movements.

have you told GCHQ?    because they probably already have one

[GreyDave]

Mmmm not sure how it works but can you imaging getting a warning message from being close to an infected person in the waiting area of a massage parlour 
Once infected you then need to give details so that you can get treatment but I can imagine the scenario where your OH starts asking you questions like "So where did the app say you may have picked it up" 

Well      done point I was lightly making

[lostandfound]

have you told GCHQ?    because they probably already have one

Who knows? 007 is one thing, but BAU for any old govt department to be able to lookup where any of us where at any time is quite another.

[cunningman]

Who knows? 007 is one thing, but BAU for any old govt department to be able to lookup where any of us where at any time is quite another.

I haven't seen any suggestion that location services have to be on.  Besides, phone companies know which cell you are in anyway, though I believe that in theory its not shared with government, and there has been a suggestion that Google/Apple can/have received info on nearby wifi networks, which also fingers your position.

I think it should be legally required to run it - strange times.  We've given up massive freedoms, a bit of privacy for a short while is nothing.

[lostandfound]

I haven't seen any suggestion that location services have to be on.  Besides, phone companies know which cell you are in anyway, though I believe that in theory its not shared with government, and there has been a suggestion that Google/Apple can/have received info on nearby wifi networks, which also fingers your position.

I think it should be legally required to run it - strange times.  We've given up massive freedoms, a bit of privacy for a short while is nothing.

IMO government should be held to account and questioned over any intrusion into our private lives. From what I hear they are doing it differently from other Western countries. This system has been rushed into production by government, and they've chosen not to work with Google and Apple as other Western countries have done, but rather have gone their own way. 10 to 1 it's full of security holes.

[southcoastpunter]

If you are talking about the tracing app currently being tried out on The Isle of Wight, my understanding is that it works from Bluetooth - so contact is registered only at very close range (probably less than 15 yards) and only if proximity is maintained for more about 30 seconds - so not just walking past each other in the street.......and that it merely tells you that you have been in close contact within a positively test person. I don't think it necessarily tells you where it happened.

Living on the south coast near the IOW, its on the local TV and radio news all the time and that's the impression i get from reports. However, how secure it is in terms of how easy it would be to hack into the App, that could be an issue.

[lostandfound]

Here's some reportage from The Guardian - to be clear a publication with a liberal outlook, so likely to air concerns over surveillance IMO.

External Link/Members Only

External Link/Members Only

I listened to an interview with someone from Matrix legal on the Today programme, in which he said Matthew Gould the head of NHSX needed to explain and justify why the UK was not using a decentralised system and working with Google and Apple, as other Western countries have done, or else it would be inevitable that a legal challenge would be launched.

As it will be voluntary, the gov needs to get the public onside, or else they won't use it. One of above reports estimates 60% or greater adoption would be needed.

[Thephoenix]

Probably like many other ol' codgers I don't have a smart phone, so won't work with a lot of over 70's.

[casio]

the whole 'tracing app' bollocks is a £250M jobs-for-the-boys bung job for gov insiders, nobody is realistically expecting it to be used mainstream, like many projects it'll get dropped and forgotten about in 6 months.

[lostandfound]

Legal opinion on tracing app produced by firm I referred to in earlier post above

External Link/Members Only

I was going to quote it, but them being lawyers and all, I decided not to. 

[sparkus]

the whole 'tracing app' bollocks is a £250M jobs-for-the-boys bung job for gov insiders, nobody is realistically expecting it to be used mainstream, like many projects it'll get dropped and forgotten about in 6 months.

That's no way to speak about NHSX, set up by former Cameron advisers!

[winkywanky]

Gattaca  Dna film in Future

DNA is your label from day one and you can be traced by it and this app  wont collect personal info ?

Might be used to limit our travel and reason for ? Already although not stopping us useing cash it is being made more difficult .

As ever Dave, you speak in riddles and we would expect nothing less    .

As I understand it the App is completely anonymous. In other words 'the system' doesn't know who you are. It works on low-power Bluetooth, where phones (and the App within them) interact with each other. At some point your phone might send you an alert which is generated by the App, and I guess the information leading to this will come from a 'Cloud'.

If you receive an alert to warn you you've been near an infected person, then the App will advise you to self-isolate.

AFAIK that Cloud will only be looked at in general numbers-terms (to see national trends in infection rates etc), it won't be interrogated to find or identify actual people.

The only bit I'm not sure about is how 'the system' knows who is a transmission risk. Presumably the App will ask you if you have various symptoms, and whether you've had a test to say you're positive for the virus. The former would mean a high likelihood of you having Covid, the latter would mean you definitely have it. On the basis of either of those, the Cloud will issue a warning to the owners of any phones that have been near the phone owned by that individual.

Of course the possibility is there for 'dark forces' (MI5, the govt) to recognise actual people if they so wished. You just have to trust them on that  .

The alternative is not downloading the App, and then it becomes pointless, which seems a shame because they've spent weeks working on this and it has the real power to help control the spread of CV.

So once again, it all comes down to how socially responsible people feel, ie whether they're just worried about themselves or whether they feel part of society which they want to help protect.

[winkywanky]

One other thing: I guess if at any point you present to hospital with severe symptoms there might be the question of whether you got a warning from the App, and what your phone number is? I don't know.

Even if you did, would anyone in an office at MI5 then be looking through their files to see whether you've likely seen a WG?

I somehow doubt it.

[Caveat: if you were a 'person of importance' it might be different I guess. But that wouldn't apply to any of us, I feel sure  ]

[winkywanky]

the whole 'tracing app' bollocks is a £250M jobs-for-the-boys bung job for gov insiders, nobody is realistically expecting it to be used mainstream, like many projects it'll get dropped and forgotten about in 6 months.

So everything is to do with jobs for mates then.

I should imagine you won't be downloading it then, based on that 'intel' 

Let's hope everyone doesn't have the same attitude.

[Hobbit]

I don't wish to see our government having a centralised database showing all of our movements.

Your credit cards, mobile, etc all give the government information about you. In fact, they probably know everyone you have fucked, would like to fuck and will fuck.

[sparkus]

Your credit cards, mobile, etc all give the government information about you. In fact, they probably know everyone you have fucked, would like to fuck and will fuck.

Writing reviews and comments on here probably gives some snooper an eyeful each time as well.  Even just researching does.

[lostandfound]

Your credit cards, mobile, etc all give the government information about you. In fact, they probably know everyone you have fucked, would like to fuck and will fuck.

As the saying goes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! 

[sparkus]

As the saying goes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you! 

And other Nirvana lyrics 

[GreyDave]

As ever Dave, you speak in riddles and we would expect nothing less    .

As I understand it the App is completely anonymous. In other words 'the system' doesn't know who you are. It works on low-power Bluetooth, where phones (and the App within them) interact with each other. At some point your phone might send you an alert which is generated by the App, and I guess the information leading to this will come from a 'Cloud'.

If you receive an alert to warn you you've been near an infected person, then the App will advise you to self-isolate.

AFAIK that Cloud will only be looked at in general numbers-terms (to see national trends in infection rates etc), it won't be interrogated to find or identify actual people.

The only bit I'm not sure about is how 'the system' knows who is a transmission risk. Presumably the App will ask you if you have various symptoms, and whether you've had a test to say you're positive for the virus. The former would mean a high likelihood of you having Covid, the latter would mean you definitely have it. On the basis of either of those, the Cloud will issue a warning to the owners of any phones that have been near the phone owned by that individual.

Of course the possibility is there for 'dark forces' (MI5, the govt) to recognise actual people if they so wished. You just have to trust them on that  .

The alternative is not downloading the App, and then it becomes pointless, which seems a shame because they've spent weeks working on this and it has the real power to help control the spread of CV.

So once again, it all comes down to how socially responsible people feel, ie whether they're just worried about themselves or whether they feel part of society which they want to help protect.

  I look at it this way , your car or motor bike reg is meant to only be acessed by DVLA  but now we have asorts of bodies  insurance co parking enforcement private and public.
I feel that the app will be the thin end of a wedge maybe a very thin and long one but he ho ...most people have a mobile of some sort now burner or smart I would find it difficult to tell you were to find a phone box (trendy shower cube co ?) we have seen  the Scotish Medical adviser the UK`s top science advisers the Housing minister have no faith in the lock down or care about it. An Italian MP is saying it a way of Dictatorship via backdoor  ..   Singapore Korea and china  a smart phone with this info on is requied to move around IF THIS BECOMES MANDATORY ...hello Eric it`s 1948  (thats an easyone )

[winkywanky]

  I look at it this way , your car or motor bike reg is meant to only be acessed by DVLA  but now we have asorts of bodies  insurance co parking enforcement private and public.
I feel that the app will be the thin end of a wedge maybe a very thin and long one but he ho ...most people have a mobile of some sort now burner or smart I would find it difficult to tell you were to find a phone box (trendy shower cube co ?) we have seen  the Scotish Medical adviser the UK`s top science advisers the Housing minister have no faith in the lock down or care about it. An Italian MP is saying it a way of Dictatorship via backdoor  ..   Singapore Korea and china  a smart phone with this info on is requied to move around IF THIS BECOMES MANDATORY ...hello Eric it`s 1948  (thats an easyone )

Who said that? 

Everyone knows other authorised bodies get access to your registration details, it's all out in the open, good job too  . Why should I get penalised for other fuckers fiddling their motor insurance, and messing up my premiums?

Do you actually know anything about Italian politics? They have an uncomfortable history with Dictators so that would explain their concerns.

It seems to me that you're one of those people who gets all hysterical off your own bat, and then complains about newspapers and the media causing hysteria  .

[stampjones]

From what I hear they are doing it differently from other Western countries. This system has been rushed into production by government, and they've chosen not to work with Google and Apple as other Western countries have done, but rather have gone their own way. 10 to 1 it's full of security holes.

Yeah exactly and according to an article in “the register” (IT news site) it wont work. Because they dont use the google/apple software it wont be able to access the parts of the phone it needs to. Firstly the bluetooth it needs will only work when you are actually using your phone and secondly iphones will only be able to spot other iphones. Sounds like another UK government (not necessarily this one) IT fuck up.
Its also likely to suck your battery life like an old style thai SP

External Link/Members Only

[petermisc]

Last night's programme on how South Korea dealt with the virus was a bit of an eye opener.  There, the government can access all your mobile phone records and credit/debit card records in just 10 minutes, as part of their track and trace programme.  Because their track and trace programme has been so effective, life has pretty much returned to normal.  Would we be prepared to accept such as loss of privacy in return for getting back to normal? I suspect not.

[petermisc]

Yeah exactly and according to an article in “the register” (IT news site) it wont work. Because they dont use the google/apple software it wont be able to access the parts of the phone it needs to. Firstly the bluetooth it needs will only work when you are actually using your phone and secondly iphones will only be able to spot other iphones. Sounds like another UK government (not necessarily this one) IT fuck up.
Its also likely to suck your battery life like an old style thai SP

External Link/Members Only

What a piece of shite reporting - it basically just boils down to repeated "we think it might not work", without any evidence whatsoever to support it.  The app has already been trialled, and I am fairly certain that such basic issues would have been found during the trial.  I am not convinced about the app, but more because we seem to be going for the Betamax version when everyone else is going for VHS.  I can forsee some nations making it compulsory to have their app as a border entry requirement.

As one of the HIGNFY panelists remarked, who do you trust most to protect your privacy: the government, or Google and Apple?  Bit of a close call.

[lostandfound]

What a piece of shite reporting - it basically just boils down to repeated "we think it might not work", without any evidence whatsoever to support it.  The app has already been trialled, and I am fairly certain that such basic issues would have been found during the trial.  I am not convinced about the app, but more because we seem to be going for the Betamax version when everyone else is going for VHS.  I can forsee some nations making it compulsory to have their app as a border entry requirement.

As one of the HIGNFY panelists remarked, who do you trust most to protect your privacy: the government, or Google and Apple?  Bit of a close call.

I disagree. I expect there are still basic problems with the app, as described in the Register report, and other reports in the press.

Do you have a lot of experience developing software for mobile applications?

[stampjones]

What a piece of shite reporting - it basically just boils down to repeated "we think it might not work", without any evidence whatsoever to support it.  The app has already been trialled, and I am fairly certain that such basic issues would have been found during the trial.  I am not convinced about the app, but more because we seem to be going for the Betamax version when everyone else is going for VHS.  I can forsee some nations making it compulsory to have their app as a border entry requirement.

As one of the HIGNFY panelists remarked, who do you trust most to protect your privacy: the government, or Google and Apple?  Bit of a close call.

The spec published by nhsx pretty much confirms what the article says so not sure what you think is wrong with it.

[petermisc]

The spec published by nhsx pretty much confirms what the article says so not sure what you think is wrong with it.

Basically, what I said in my original post, it consists of nothing more than repeated "it probably won't work" statements with absolutely no corroborating evidence.

I am not saying that I am confident that the app will work, but that article had nothing in it to sway my view.   It is pure internet click-bait, pandering to those who are predisposed to believe it.

[petermisc]

Do you have a lot of experience developing software for mobile applications?

I am not convinced that whoever wrote that article did.  It is basically just rehashed "all government IT is rubbish".

[lostandfound]

I am not convinced that whoever wrote that article did.  It is basically just rehashed "all government IT is rubbish".

To be fair, a lot of government IT is rubbish. And that article repeats criticism I've seen elsewhere, which IMO is most likely accurate.

[stampjones]

Basically, what I said in my original post, it consists of nothing more than repeated "it probably won't work" statements with absolutely no corroborating evidence.

I am not saying that I am confident that the app will work, but that article had nothing in it to sway my view.   It is pure internet click-bait, pandering to those who are predisposed to believe it.

I’d say it’s a pretty reasonable factual technical analysis written in non-jargon that raises issues from the government paper. It’s asking reasonable questions which anyone building an application would expect to face in any hslf competent design review so the fact that it’s got this far without them being answered is pretty scary

[stampjones]

I am not convinced that whoever wrote that article did.  It is basically just rehashed "all government IT is rubbish".

It’s one thing to have opinions about what the government (or any subsequent government) may or may not do with private data but its pretty unpolitical to ask if the thing actually works.

[Xtro]

the whole 'tracing app' bollocks is a £250M jobs-for-the-boys bung job for gov insiders, nobody is realistically expecting it to be used mainstream, like many projects it'll get dropped and forgotten about in 6 months.

You're so cynical!    Well done.      

Do you actually know anything about Italian politics? They have an uncomfortable history with Dictators so that would explain their concerns.

See Operation Gladio [BBC Timewatch, 1992] State-Sponsored Terror -
External Link/Members Only

[pewpewpew]

It's something with the bluetooth needing to always be on which kills your battery. So the app needs bluetooth to be off unless the app discovers another nearby device which also has the app which then turns bluetooth on. How it discovers the other nearby device without bluetooth on already is beyond me.

Also there was a hing about the app not running in the background so people would have to actually start it before going walkies. I believe apple and google offered to make an app which would run in the background but obviously would require payment in the form of your movements which the gov don't want

I personally won't be downloading the app and will take my chances with social distancing and hand sanitizer

[winkywanky]

I think the Bluetooth is always on but it's short-range Bluetooth, which takes a lot less juice.

[Spencer Fobby]

It’s one thing to have opinions about what the government (or any subsequent government) may or may not do with private data but its pretty unpolitical to ask if the thing actually works.

The NHS app that went live in the Isle of Wight only works on mobile phones using the latest operating system. A friend of mine downloaded it but it wouldn’t work because her phone is 2 years old. You’d have thought that they might have made the app able to work on older OSs especially as the population there is skewed older that the rest of the country.
Lack of joined up thinking again.

[petermisc]

The NHS app that went live in the Isle of Wight only works on mobile phones using the latest operating system.

TBH that doesn't surprise me.  I wouldn't have said my mobile was that old (admittedly I am not someone who feels the need to keep getting the latest model), but a lot of apps won't run on it.  I was expecting that to be the case anyway with the Google/Apple versions (them having a vested interest in you getting a new phone).

I think that there is a fundamental flaw anyway with these apps.  When presented with a message that says you may have been in contact with someone who may be infected, I suspect that the response of a significant number, rather than self-isolating, will be:
a) sod it, I feel okay
b) head off to the supermarket and stockpile with bog roll and pasta, just in case.

For it to be effective, it needs to be mandatory and enforceable.  Like S Korea, where I understand they detect if you leave home after getting the text.  Or the Chinese app, where you have to show it is green if challenged.  Of course, the privacy paranoid, "big brother" fearers are never going to allow that kind of thing here.

[winkywanky]

Some of the stuff we saw from China would never happen here, like people being dragged, kicking and screaming from their houses by police and the local Party officials, and being made to carry a govt App on their phones.

I think it's a fact of life that a country like China is able to start the whole bloody thing off, and then simply lock everything down (with the threat of a big stick) and then come out the other side relatively scot-free, while the West wrings its hands, dithers, fucks up, argues amongst themselves, in our democratic and entitled way.

Oh, and then China gets to manufacture and sell us all the PPE and other shit that we should have been ready with in the first place  .

By the way, I'm not an advocate of Communism, just sayin'.

[petermisc]

It’s asking reasonable questions which anyone building an application would expect to face in any hslf competent design review

Agreed.  But that's all the article is: a long list of potential problems.  They give no reason to expect that those things won't have been addressed, other than the clichéd "government IT never works".  Significantly, they failed to consider how likely those issues were to have got through the field trials that have already been conducted, without being discovered.

With my IT background, I would be surprised if something being rolled out this quickly and so widely, doesn't have problems (and equally unsurprised about all the people who will be queuing up to say "told you it wouldn't work").  However, I would be very surprised if the basic things, like apple and android compatibility, hadn't been tested during the field trials.

[winkywanky]

I think the App will be far from perfect and the govt knows that, whether because it's been made too 'loose' to placate the govt-control theorists, or because not enough people have modern enough phones.

But I think they've said that they only need around 60% take-up for it to be overall useful? Saying that might in itself have been a mistake of course, everyone might think well in that case I'll let some other poor fucker download it  .

Results from the Isle of Wight trial will be interesting, anyone know when they'll be in?

[stampjones]

Agreed.  But that's all the article is: a long list of potential problems.  They give no reason to expect that those things won't have been addressed, other than the clichéd "government IT never works".  Significantly, they failed to consider how likely those issues were to have got through the field trials that have already been conducted, without being discovered.

With my IT background, I would be surprised if something being rolled out this quickly and so widely, doesn't have problems (and equally unsurprised about all the people who will be queuing up to say "told you it wouldn't work").  However, I would be very surprised if the basic things, like apple and android compatibility, hadn't been tested during the field trials.

If you’ve got an IT background you’d realise that the issue here isnt that its a bad design but that the fundamental conditions of the platform make it impossible for them to be addressed.  Its like trying to design a chocolate teapot!  You dont need to build it and test it to know it aint gonna work! Given that it was “government IT” that made the decision to go ahead anyway, the I’d say yes they are fundamentally flawed. That’s what the article points out fairly clearly.

[sparkus]

I think the App will be far from perfect and the govt knows that, whether because it's been made too 'loose' to placate the govt-control theorists, or because not enough people have modern enough phones.

But I think they've said that they only need around 60% take-up for it to be overall useful? Saying that might in itself have been a mistake of course, everyone might think well in that case I'll let some other poor fucker download it  .

Results from the Isle of Wight trial will be interesting, anyone know when they'll be in?

All seems to have gone quiet, as like the supposed "one million NHS volunteers" app this was something engineered for a 5pm press announcement.  Still, the Tories' mates get paid regardless.

[Xtro]

All seems to have gone quiet, as like the supposed "one million NHS volunteers" app this was something engineered for a 5pm press announcement.  Still, the Tories' mates get paid regardless.

Ouch!    The truth hurts! 

[winkywanky]

I thought most App Developers were spotty teenagers in their bedrooms, gorging on pizza in-between writing code (and having a crafty wank, probably)?