Oxford Vaccine development

[lostandfound]

Positive peer reaction to a Times interview about the development of the Oxford vaccine

External Link/Members Only

They caution amongst other things that multiple doses may be needed and also that the UK does not currently have vaccine manuf capability at scale.

Since then the Oxford team have gained pharma giant Astrazeneca as an industrial partner who can organise worldwide manufacture and distribution, because that's just business as usual for AZN

External Link/Members Only

Seems about as positive as it could be, at this stage. Interview with AZN CEO by the Beeb in following link -

External Link/Members Only

[petermisc]

It does indeed look promising, but important to note:

The plan is to submit the vaccine for fast track regulatory approval in the fourth quarter of 2020, and for it to be ready for limited use by the end of this year.

And that is assuming that it works.  Proper testing is necessary, so that we know that it doesn't have any unwanted side effects on pregnant mothers and foetuses, particularly if there is a mass vaccination programme.  The last thing we need is another Thalidomide tragedy.

[lostandfound]

It does indeed look promising, but important to note:

The plan is to submit the vaccine for fast track regulatory approval in the fourth quarter of 2020, and for it to be ready for limited use by the end of this year.

And that is assuming that it works.  Proper testing is necessary, so that we know that it doesn't have any unwanted side effects on pregnant mothers and foetuses, particularly if there is a mass vaccination programme.  The last thing we need is another Thalidomide tragedy.

Absolutely. As Gates pointed out in a recent interview, if a vaccine has an unknown side effect which does not manifest for a couple of years and a vaccine is deployed in a shorter time frame than that, there is no way of testing for that.

[petermisc]

Any hint that a vaccine is being rushed through and not properly tested will be fuel to the fire for the anti-vaxers

[lostandfound]

Any hint that a vaccine is being rushed through and not properly tested will be fuel to the fire for the anti-vaxers

I think it's not unreasonable to hope that one beneficial side effect of this pandemic will be to effectively neutralise the anti-vaxxers. Arguably they've only been able to gain ground because there's been nothing like this pandemic in living memory.

Similarly to what has been pointed out on another thread just now, the anti-vaccination movement is a case of disinformation misleading stupid people.

[winkywanky]

Positive peer reaction to a Times interview about the development of the Oxford vaccine

External Link/Members Only

They caution amongst other things that multiple doses may be needed and also that the UK does not currently have vaccine manuf capability at scale.

Since then the Oxford team have gained pharma giant Astrazeneca as an industrial partner who can organise worldwide manufacture and distribution, because that's just business as usual for AZN

External Link/Members Only

Seems about as positive as it could be, at this stage. Interview with AZN CEO by the Beeb in following link -

External Link/Members Only

I've said elsewhere here, much as it would go totally against the normal 'rules' of free trade and commercial freedom (we live in a Capitalist society after all), it does seem to me that times and situations such as these might justify the state taking control of things temporarily. A temporary 'Nationalisation' if you will.

Despite all the big talk about 'the world coming together and fighting this as one' (and that's a laudable ambition) the fact remains that whoever comes up with 'the magic bullet' (I know it probably won't be that simple), that country will want to prioritise their own population.

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of major countries around the world sharing all the intel they have on producing a new vaccine, at all stages of development, but when it comes time for the vaccine to start being produced there will undoubtedly be a bunfight for resources, and which country is going to say to its own people 'well we have a large manufacturing capacity, but out of sheer altruism we're going to spread distribution around the world and not concentrate on inoculating ourselves first'? None, I would venture.

It seems to me that we should be already building huge new facilities to manufacture a new vaccine so that when the time comes we can knock out the 60M or so that we need, for ourselves. And one would wish other countries would do the same. For the smaller and less capable countries around the world, perhaps the major players could pledge to provide a certain percentage of their output to them, and come up with an internationally-recognised formula for distribution there?

This would all piss off the big international Pharma companies of course, but fuck 'em, this crisis transcends pretty well everything, for the short and medium term at least.

[winkywanky]

I think it's not unreasonable to hope that one beneficial side effect of this pandemic will be to effectively neutralise the anti-vaxxers. Arguably they've only been able to gain ground because there's been nothing like this pandemic in living memory.

Similarly to what has been pointed out on another thread just now, the anti-vaccination movement is a case of disinformation misleading stupid people.

It might be nice to make sure they got the vaccine last, but of course we couldn't possibly do that, being civilised and all    .

[Doc Holliday]

And that is assuming that it works.  Proper testing is necessary, so that we know that it doesn't have any unwanted side effects on pregnant mothers and foetuses, particularly if there is a mass vaccination programme.  The last thing we need is another Thalidomide tragedy.

I think effectiveness will the major hurdle to overcome. Safety maybe much less so? Unlike new drugs (such as thalidomide once was) vaccines have many things in common which have already been tested.

However one safety concern and potential difficulty with regard to the development of a vaccine, is the huge spectrum of variation of immune response we are seeing with exposure to this virus.

[petermisc]

I think it's not unreasonable to hope that one beneficial side effect of this pandemic will be to effectively neutralise the anti-vaxxers.

You might hope so, but I doubt it.  The anti-vaxx movement is heavily based in the USA, where there are a significant number of virus-deniers, those who believe it was deliberately introduced by the government, that the vaccine will be used to mind-control them, and other similar nonsense.

[timsussex]

Its a vaccine so the worst thing it can do is give you the disease - which otherwise we will probably all get anyway

[lostandfound]

You might hope so, but I doubt it.  The anti-vaxx movement is heavily based in the USA, where there are a significant number of virus-deniers, those who believe it was deliberately introduced by the government, that the vaccine will be used to mind-control them, and other similar nonsense.

We'll see. There will be more appetite to legislate against them in the US in the face of this virus.

I feel some shame on the part of the UK as we produced Andrew Wakefield.

[Wadebridge]

Blimey. What has just been printed must be a World first!
Those Tory government and big-business arse-licking toerag editors and journalists of that roll of yesterday's chip paper wrapping 'The Daily Mail' actually having to admit that Russia's Covid vaccine has got approval from 'The Lancet'; the UK's official medical journal.
External Link/Members Only

[lostandfound]

Blimey. What has just been printed must be a World first!
Those Tory government and big-business arse-licking toerag editors and journalists of that roll of yesterday's chip paper wrapping 'The Daily Mail' actually having to admit that Russia's Covid vaccine has got approval from 'The Lancet'; the UK's official medical journal.
External Link/Members Only

TBH I cannot see that much has changed  - leaving the Daily Mail to one side.

The concern I saw expressed was that "Sputnik-V" has not been adequately tested, and AIUI that remains the case. The report I read earlier concerning this published study was for a tiny sample size (around 80 or so IIRC). I think it also said it is going into a larger testing phase of 40K. But Russia plans to deploy it next month, against which the concerns expressed by Western experts remain.

[Happylad]

We ought to know by now - a few dead bodies are neither here nor there in any enterprise where the Russians are concerned. I imagine that they`ll try it out first in one of their labour camps in secret and in the unlikely event of any surfeit of deaths becoming known they will simply be put down to all manner of natural causes.

[winkywanky]

Blimey. What has just been printed must be a World first!
Those Tory government and big-business arse-licking toerag editors and journalists of that roll of yesterday's chip paper wrapping 'The Daily Mail' actually having to admit that Russia's Covid vaccine has got approval from 'The Lancet'; the UK's official medical journal.
External Link/Members Only

It may be that the Russian vaccine will work.

It may be that it won't kill anyone as an undesired side-effect.

Yes of course, there are fantastic home-bred scientists working in Russia. That's always been the case. There were many occasions when the Russians' (OK, Soviet, little difference really) Space Program was streets ahead of the Yanks', and on a lot less money. Similarly with their Nuclear Program, although it's debatable how much of the info was stolen.

The point is, do you trust any medical literature coming out of Russia?

I'll cite two examples where even when the medical profession is involved, with its universal Hippocratic principles, the pool of virtue can be poisoned by political influence:

The Russian anti-doping authority, bent as fuck, and literally with a hole in the Lab wall where dirty samples were disposed of and fresh, clean samples substituted in their place.

And more recently, the statements coming from doctors at the Moscow hospital where the Navalny guy, poisoned by Novichok, was being 'treated' before reluctantly being released to a German hospital where the truth was suddenly and miraculously discovered. He got given a cup of Novichok Tea at the airport (makes a change from Polonium).

Frankly I'm surprised at The Lancet taking as read, anything from Russian sources, when so much is at stake politically  .

I wouldn't trust any official statements coming out of Russia now, regardless of the source  .

[winkywanky]

They are stinking, lying cunts  .

[badsin]

They are stinking, lying cunts  .

Couldn't agree more 

[Wadebridge]

It may be that the Russian vaccine will work.
It may be that it won't kill anyone as an undesired side-effect.
Yes of course, there are fantastic home-bred scientists working in Russia. That's always been the case. There were many occasions when the Russians' (OK, Soviet, little difference really) Space Program was streets ahead of the Yanks', and on a lot less money. Similarly with their Nuclear Program, although it's debatable how much of the info was stolen.
The point is, do you trust any medical literature coming out of Russia?

Well the issue is not really whether or not I myself trust the medical literature, but whether or not the UK's medical experts do. And according to what has been published in 'The Lancet', they do.
With regard to the wider issue of the trustworthiness of this, or other news stories, whether coming out of Russia, or elsewhere, I try to keep an open mind and listen to both sides of the debate.
I find it helps not to swallow hook, line and sinker the blatant bias and propaganda spewed out by that oily rag 'The Daily Mail'. Instead make my own mind up on an item from more reliable news feeds that offer more of a sense of 'balance'.
What has been my overriding experience is that foreign 'diplomats' and spokespersons, when arguing their points, invariably seem to give a much more articulate and reasoned response to the debate, their superior oratory also often illustrated with examples.
Contrast this with our own politicians, who are by and large  shifty; cagey; hardly ever answer a direct question put to them; fail miserably on requests for existence of evidence or proof, citing the 'Official Secrets Act' or some other get out clause; and spit out blatant propaganda and half truths designed to hoodwink and deflect.
As a case in point I compare the recent debate on Andrew Marr's Sunday Show in which he discussed at length the allegations about Russia's hacking and stealing of British intelligence secrets, including vaccine secrets, with first the Russian ambassador, and then our own Foreign Secretary.
Watching both sides of the debate, there was no doubt in my mind which of the two men in my eyes gave the most reasoned, intelligent response.
The Russian ambassador responded with clear, concise answers, even injecting a little humour and laughter into some of the most outlandish claims; that Russian hacking was influential in achieving the close call (45%) by which Scotland nearly agreed to independence from the UK. It was an impressive oratory, made more remarkable by the fact that the ambassador was speaking in excellent, fluent English, not his first language.
Then listening to the barrage of smoke screens and propaganda coming out of Raab's mouth, unfounded smears that he could not back up in any way,  with dismay I was reminded of the catalogue of errors, broken promises, apathy, U-turns, and mixed muddled messaging that has been the legacy left by our UK government's inept and clueless handling of the coronavirus pandemic; for comparison against other countries on a world stage. 
And it made me feel sick to the stomach.   
Speaking personally I consider living through 2020 to be one of the most miserable, depressing, anxious periods of any time in my entire life.
The way that our quality of life has changed forever. All the little things that we used to enjoy about life; a laugh and a joke with a friend or two, and a chatter with likeable strangers getting merry down the pub; an impromptu holiday or long weekend by booking a last minute hotel; an away day to a place of interest, where you could just turn up instead of having to prebook; an enjoyable punt and natter with a regular etc. All gone. And life may never be the same again.
So I welcome any kind of feel good news that might offer a pathway back to old 'normality' and bring us a step nearer to closing this chapter on what is playing out as one of the most heinous episodes in the world's history.
And political prejudices should not in my view be allowed to take away deserving praise for Russia in what could turn out to be a remarkable achievement, and a cornerstone in this long battle.   

[myothernameis]

It does indeed look promising, but important to note:

The plan is to submit the vaccine for fast track regulatory approval in the fourth quarter of 2020, and for it to be ready for limited use by the end of this year.

And that is assuming that it works.  Proper testing is necessary, so that we know that it doesn't have any unwanted side effects on pregnant mothers and foetuses, particularly if there is a mass vaccination programme.  The last thing we need is another Thalidomide tragedy.

I have taken part in a number of clinical trials, 3rd & 4th stages, side effects were always listed in the document.  But over the years doing these trials, we came to see other side effects not listed on the document.  So now for the next stage, 5th new side effect get added to the documents

I honestly have concerns, when they start to roll out the vaccine to the 68 million population in the UK, and if multiple doses required.  If we start to see side effects, think this could halt any vaccination of the population in the UK, and do other countries start looking at there vacinnes

[winkywanky]

Well the issue is not really whether or not I myself trust the medical literature, but whether or not the UK's medical experts do. And according to what has been published in 'The Lancet', they do.
With regard to the wider issue of the trustworthiness of this, or other news stories, whether coming out of Russia, or elsewhere, I try to keep an open mind and listen to both sides of the debate.
I find it helps not to swallow hook, line and sinker the blatant bias and propaganda spewed out by that oily rag 'The Daily Mail'. Instead make my own mind up on an item from more reliable news feeds that offer more of a sense of 'balance'.
What has been my overriding experience is that foreign 'diplomats' and spokespersons, when arguing their points, invariably seem to give a much more articulate and reasoned response to the debate, their superior oratory also often illustrated with examples.
Contrast this with our own politicians, who are by and large  shifty; cagey; hardly ever answer a direct question put to them; fail miserably on requests for existence of evidence or proof, citing the 'Official Secrets Act' or some other get out clause; and spit out blatant propaganda and half truths designed to hoodwink and deflect.
As a case in point I compare the recent debate on Andrew Marr's Sunday Show in which he discussed at length the allegations about Russia's hacking and stealing of British intelligence secrets, including vaccine secrets, with first the Russian ambassador, and then our own Foreign Secretary.
Watching both sides of the debate, there was no doubt in my mind which of the two men in my eyes gave the most reasoned, intelligent response.
The Russian ambassador responded with clear, concise answers, even injecting a little humour and laughter into some of the most outlandish claims; that Russian hacking was influential in achieving the close call (45%) by which Scotland nearly agreed to independence from the UK. It was an impressive oratory, made more remarkable by the fact that the ambassador was speaking in excellent, fluent English, not his first language.
Then listening to the barrage of smoke screens and propaganda coming out of Raab's mouth, unfounded smears that he could not back up in any way,  with dismay I was reminded of the catalogue of errors, broken promises, apathy, U-turns, and mixed muddled messaging that has been the legacy left by our UK government's inept and clueless handling of the coronavirus pandemic; for comparison against other countries on a world stage. 
And it made me feel sick to the stomach.   
Speaking personally I consider living through 2020 to be one of the most miserable, depressing, anxious periods of any time in my entire life.
The way that our quality of life has changed forever. All the little things that we used to enjoy about life; a laugh and a joke with a friend or two, and a chatter with likeable strangers getting merry down the pub; an impromptu holiday or long weekend by booking a last minute hotel; an away day to a place of interest, where you could just turn up instead of having to prebook; an enjoyable punt and natter with a regular etc. All gone. And life may never be the same again.
So I welcome any kind of feel good news that might offer a pathway back to old 'normality' and bring us a step nearer to closing this chapter on what is playing out as one of the most heinous episodes in the world's history.
And political prejudices should not in my view be allowed to take away deserving praise for Russia in what could turn out to be a remarkable achievement, and a cornerstone in this long battle.

I'll believe it when it's proven to be correct, and that'll be some time yet.

As for trusting people who seem convincing on telly...well our Secretary of State for Defence when the Russians took a shit on our front lawn - the Skripal poisonings - was Gavin Williamson. If you use that reasoning to compare his lacklustre response with that of the very slick and urbane Russian Foreign Minister at the time Sergei Lavrov, then you'd think Williamson himself planted the poison. Lavrov ran rings around him.

Does that mean Lavrov's denials about the Kremlin's involvement were true? Were they fuck!

[scutty brown]

Blimey. What has just been printed must be a World first!
Those Tory government and big-business arse-licking toerag editors and journalists of that roll of yesterday's chip paper wrapping 'The Daily Mail' actually having to admit that Russia's Covid vaccine has got approval from 'The Lancet'; the UK's official medical journal.
External Link/Members Only

the study involved 76 people, only half of whom got the vaccine.
All that proves is it didn't kill people. In terms of efficacy the trial isn't large enough to be significant.
Thats the problem - it needs more testing before use

[scutty brown]

Well the issue is not really whether or not I myself trust the medical literature, but whether or not the UK's medical experts do. And according to what has been published in 'The Lancet', they do.
With regard to the wider issue of the trustworthiness of this, or other news stories, whether coming out of Russia, or elsewhere, I try to keep an open mind and listen to both sides of the debate.
I find it helps not to swallow hook, line and sinker the blatant bias and propaganda spewed out by that oily rag 'The Daily Mail'. Instead make my own mind up on an item from more reliable news feeds that offer more of a sense of 'balance'.
What has been my overriding experience is that foreign 'diplomats' and spokespersons, when arguing their points, invariably seem to give a much more articulate and reasoned response to the debate, their superior oratory also often illustrated with examples.
Contrast this with our own politicians, who are by and large  shifty; cagey; hardly ever answer a direct question put to them; fail miserably on requests for existence of evidence or proof, citing the 'Official Secrets Act' or some other get out clause; and spit out blatant propaganda and half truths designed to hoodwink and deflect.
As a case in point I compare the recent debate on Andrew Marr's Sunday Show in which he discussed at length the allegations about Russia's hacking and stealing of British intelligence secrets, including vaccine secrets, with first the Russian ambassador, and then our own Foreign Secretary.
Watching both sides of the debate, there was no doubt in my mind which of the two men in my eyes gave the most reasoned, intelligent response.
The Russian ambassador responded with clear, concise answers, even injecting a little humour and laughter into some of the most outlandish claims; that Russian hacking was influential in achieving the close call (45%) by which Scotland nearly agreed to independence from the UK. It was an impressive oratory, made more remarkable by the fact that the ambassador was speaking in excellent, fluent English, not his first language.
Then listening to the barrage of smoke screens and propaganda coming out of Raab's mouth, unfounded smears that he could not back up in any way,  with dismay I was reminded of the catalogue of errors, broken promises, apathy, U-turns, and mixed muddled messaging that has been the legacy left by our UK government's inept and clueless handling of the coronavirus pandemic; for comparison against other countries on a world stage. 
And it made me feel sick to the stomach.   
Speaking personally I consider living through 2020 to be one of the most miserable, depressing, anxious periods of any time in my entire life.
The way that our quality of life has changed forever. All the little things that we used to enjoy about life; a laugh and a joke with a friend or two, and a chatter with likeable strangers getting merry down the pub; an impromptu holiday or long weekend by booking a last minute hotel; an away day to a place of interest, where you could just turn up instead of having to prebook; an enjoyable punt and natter with a regular etc. All gone. And life may never be the same again.
So I welcome any kind of feel good news that might offer a pathway back to old 'normality' and bring us a step nearer to closing this chapter on what is playing out as one of the most heinous episodes in the world's history.
And political prejudices should not in my view be allowed to take away deserving praise for Russia in what could turn out to be a remarkable achievement, and a cornerstone in this long battle.

Stalin had a phrase for people who thought like you: "useful idiots"

[scutty brown]

It may be that the Russian vaccine will work.

It may be that it won't kill anyone as an undesired side-effect.

Yes of course, there are fantastic home-bred scientists working in Russia. That's always been the case. There were many occasions when the Russians' (OK, Soviet, little difference really) Space Program was streets ahead of the Yanks', and on a lot less money. Similarly with their Nuclear Program, although it's debatable how much of the info was stolen.

The point is, do you trust any medical literature coming out of Russia?

I'll cite two examples where even when the medical profession is involved, with its universal Hippocratic principles, the pool of virtue can be poisoned by political influence:

The Russian anti-doping authority, bent as fuck, and literally with a hole in the Lab wall where dirty samples were disposed of and fresh, clean samples substituted in their place.

And more recently, the statements coming from doctors at the Moscow hospital where the Navalny guy, poisoned by Novichok, was being 'treated' before reluctantly being released to a German hospital where the truth was suddenly and miraculously discovered. He got given a cup of Novichok Tea at the airport (makes a change from Polonium).

Frankly I'm surprised at The Lancet taking as read, anything from Russian sources, when so much is at stake politically  .

I wouldn't trust any official statements coming out of Russia now, regardless of the source  .

The USSR had several institutes which were quite sophisticated in virus development, it stands to reason that modern Russia would retain that knowledge and the skills to treat their creations.This company took over much of the research  External Link/Members Only
 But remember - the reason for these sites existence was to create virii and bacteria for biological warfare, not to create therapies

[Wadebridge]

As for trusting people who seem convincing on telly...

I can appreciate your point. And I do agree with you that some people are indeed able to sell themselves and their interests very well and articulately on telly and other media, whilst in reality being egotistical, fraudulent, conniving little shitbags.
Spoonbender Uri Geller is an excellent example of such a case in point.  He even made a convincing argument as to why he was a suitable candidate to be a British government adviser àfter answering Dom Cum's advertisement for "misfits and weirdos who can think outside the box".

well our Secretary of State for Defence when the Russians took a shit on our front lawn - the Skripal poisonings - was Gavin Williamson. If you use that reasoning to compare his lacklustre response with that of the very slick and urbane Russian Foreign Minister at the time Sergei Lavrov, then you'd think Williamson himself planted the poison. Lavrov ran rings around him.

Yes, I have seen and listened to Sergei Lavrov on several occasions including a long piece being interviewed by Channel 4's Cathy Newman on the Russian Army's involvement in Syria. He is a very articulate man, powerful arguments, master of diplomacy, and clearly a highly intelligent individual.
Gavin Williamson, a man who struggles to keep up with any brief given to him; and whose childish pranks include keeping a caged pet tarantula on his Parliamentary Office desk whilst Chief Whip, to put the "frighteners" on visitors summoned to his office; is clearly and so obviously not in the same league intellectually as Lavrov.
I believe, at the time, that Gavin Williamson's response to the 'Novichok poisonings' crisis in Salisbury was something like "Russia should shut up and go away".
As Defence Secretary does this even sound like a man who was convinced in his own mind that Russia was behind the poisonings? Surely he should have been banging his desk calling for reprisals instead.

I'll admit; and perhaps this might be considered 'unconscious bias'; that I tend to trust and be more inclined to believe the arguments of a statesperson who is able to make a convincing and articulate address.
Equally I tend to distrust; both the arguments and the person; made by commentators who make cheap point scoring soundbites and, when pressed for facts or evidence, then start to flounder and put up smokescreens, or go off at an irrelevant tangent.

I'll believe it when it's proven to be correct, and that'll be some time yet.

So I'll now just return on topic by giving credit to the Russians for the fact that they have at least got a vaccine, which looks promising, which seems safe, and is at the cusp of being rolled out in a mass inoculation programme.
For most far-thinking people it would appear to be welcome news for the ultimate good of the planet's population.
By contrast, the dissenting voices of our shambolic rulers and their big business baron supporters, who seem so keen to discredit this achievement, are the fucktards that come across to me as being the 'enemies' of the population, at this moment in time.

[winkywanky]

I can appreciate your point. And I do agree with you that some people are indeed able to sell themselves and their interests very well and articulately on telly and other media, whilst in reality being egotistical, fraudulent, conniving little shitbags.
Spoonbender Uri Geller is an excellent example of such a case in point.  He even made a convincing argument as to why he was a suitable candidate to be a British government adviser àfter answering Dom Cum's advertisement for "misfits and weirdos who can think outside the box".

Yuri geller is the perfect example of that, a master of deception. Of course, any magician worth his salt would be too.

Yes, I have seen and listened to Sergei Lavrov on several occasions including a long piece being interviewed by Channel 4's Cathy Newman on the Russian Army's involvement in Syria. He is a very articulate man, powerful arguments, master of diplomacy, and clearly a highly intelligent individual.
Gavin Williamson, a man who struggles to keep up with any brief given to him; and whose childish pranks include keeping a caged pet tarantula on his Parliamentary Office desk whilst Chief Whip, to put the "frighteners" on visitors summoned to his office; is clearly and so obviously not in the same league intellectually as Lavrov.
I believe, at the time, that Gavin Williamson's response to the 'Novichok poisonings' crisis in Salisbury was something like "Russia should shut up and go away".
As Defence Secretary does this even sound like a man who was convinced in his own mind that Russia was behind the poisonings? Surely he should have been banging his desk calling for reprisals instead.

That was indeed exactly what Williamson said, and then Lavrov took the piss out of him with references to Britain being the land of Shakespeare, and look how we've ended up. He had a point, and on 'inteleectual terms' he made Williamson look like Alan Partridge. But it doesn't mean he wasn't lying through his teeth, which of course he was. He'd probably even pass a lie detector test saying it, because don't forget where these people came from...Lavrov, Putin et al. They came from Soviet Russia, where you did what the fuck you were told, dissent was crushed, and you were lied to on a daily basis with no redress whatsoever.

I'll admit; and perhaps this might be considered 'unconscious bias'; that I tend to trust and be more inclined to believe the arguments of a statesperson who is able to make a convincing and articulate address. Equally I tend to distrust; both the arguments and the person; made by commentators who make cheap point scoring soundbites and, when pressed for facts or evidence, then start to flounder and put up smokescreens, or go off at an irrelevant tangent.So I'll now just return on topic by giving credit to the Russians for the fact that they have at least got a vaccine, which looks promising, which seems safe, and is at the cusp of being rolled out in a mass inoculation programme.
For most far-thinking people it would appear to be welcome news for the ultimate good of the planet's population.
By contrast, the dissenting voices of our shambolic rulers and their big business baron supporters, who seem so keen to discredit this achievement, are the fucktards that come across to me as being the 'enemies' of the population, at this moment in time.

Back to the Russian vaccine, and their scientists: It may be that they have genuinely come up with a vaccine which is more advanced than what the West is currently working on, and it may work and it may be safe. I actually hope it is (and that if it isn't because they lied, that Putin's daughters tits drop off).

But what you cannot be sure of IMO, is data produced by Russia which 'proves' that all proper and relevant testing and trials have been done as stated, because as per the two examples I cited, one very recent, where doctors at the Navalny hospital changed their story under duress (or maybe they're just being patriotic  ), the other where their whole anti-doping system was a fraud, from the top down. Scientists and doctors lied.

There would be a national scandal if that happened here, and it would come out. Over there, sadly, no.

[Wadebridge]

Stalin had a phrase for people who thought like you: "useful idiots"

Instead of implying that I'm one of Stalin's 'useful idiots'; I understand that you work in a capacity that is directly or indirectly associated with the NHS; how about telling me how Britain's "world-beating" Track, Trace & Isolate system is fareing? How's it coming along? Is it likely to extinguish the spread of the virus in our shores anytime soon?
Current Worldometers coronavirus data:
UK:
Total cases: 342,351
Total deaths: 41,537
Total recovered: n/a
Active cases: n/a
Cases per 1m population: 5,038
Total population of nation: 67,950,227
Russia:
Total cases: 1,020,310
Total deaths: 17,759
Total recovered: 838,126
Active cases: 164,425
Cases per 1m population: 6,991
Total population of nation: 145,945,865.

Just as a 'by the way', that total population figure for UK seems alarming.  Totally unsustainable. When you compare back to only the early 1990's when UK had a population of about 48 million people.
No wonder the NHS is 'creaking at its seams'.
Seriously and truly frightening.

[Gordon Bennett]

The Lancet eh? Same Lancet that swallowed Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent evidence about MMR vaccine and published a paper that led to a world-wide spike in measles. Yeah, he got rumbled eventually but it took 12 years before they removed the paper.
Whole incident showed that Doctors, clinicians, British Medical Journal, The Lancet and the biomedical production/publishing industry are not subject to the correct levels of independent scrutiny - they police themselves and are thus liable to be hoodwinked by unscrupulous elements within. Bottom line is it is a £billiion industry - we need to be careful and not wide-eyed and dopey enough to think they will "do the right thing" for us. There will definitely be some out there who will see a Covid vaccine as a huge opportunity to make a ton of money and happily spike their rivals with misinformation, fake news and chicanery. Not much we can do, but don't be thinking that if venerable names like The Lancet are involved then it's all hunky-dory.

[scutty brown]

Instead of implying that I'm one of Stalin's 'useful idiots'; I understand that you work in a capacity that is directly or indirectly associated with the NHS; how about telling me how Britain's "world-beating" Track, Trace & Isolate system is fareing? How's it coming along? Is it likely to extinguish the spread of the virus in our shores anytime soon?
Current Worldometers coronavirus data:
UK:
Total cases: 342,351
Total deaths: 41,537
Total recovered: n/a
Active cases: n/a
Cases per 1m population: 5,038
Total population of nation: 67,950,227
Russia:
Total cases: 1,020,310
Total deaths: 17,759
Total recovered: 838,126
Active cases: 164,425
Cases per 1m population: 6,991
Total population of nation: 145,945,865.

Just as a 'by the way', that total population figure for UK seems alarming.  Totally unsustainable. When you compare back to only the early 1990's when UK had a population of about 48 million people.
No wonder the NHS is 'creaking at its seams'.
Seriously and truly frightening.

The efficacy or otherwise of track and trace has no bearing on your ability to be a useful idiot. And FWIW the case reports for Russia are almost certainly fictitious: you're falling into the Russian propaganda trap and then repeating it as truth. As I said, useful idiot.

[winkywanky]

The Lancet eh? Same Lancet that swallowed Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent evidence about MMR vaccine and published a paper that led to a world-wide spike in measles. Yeah, he got rumbled eventually but it took 12 years before they removed the paper.
Whole incident showed that Doctors, clinicians, British Medical Journal, The Lancet and the biomedical production/publishing industry are not subject to the correct levels of independent scrutiny - they police themselves and are thus liable to be hoodwinked by unscrupulous elements within. Bottom line is it is a £billiion industry - we need to be careful and not wide-eyed and dopey enough to think they will "do the right thing" for us. There will definitely be some out there who will see a Covid vaccine as a huge opportunity to make a ton of money and happily spike their rivals with misinformation, fake news and chicanery. Not much we can do, but don't be thinking that if venerable names like The Lancet are involved then it's all hunky-dory.

Maybe they got hacked?   

[lostandfound]

So I'll now just return on topic by giving credit to the Russians for the fact that they have at least got a vaccine, which looks promising, which seems safe, and is at the cusp of being rolled out in a mass inoculation programme.
For most far-thinking people it would appear to be welcome news for the ultimate good of the planet's population.
By contrast, the dissenting voices of our shambolic rulers and their big business baron supporters, who seem so keen to discredit this achievement, are the fucktards that come across to me as being the 'enemies' of the population, at this moment in time.

Hmm, can't help being reminded of another poster.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=281076.msg2921500#msg2921500

[Wadebridge]

The efficacy or otherwise of track and trace has no bearing on your ability to be a useful idiot. And FWIW the case reports for Russia are almost certainly fictitious: you're falling into the Russian propaganda trap and then repeating it as truth. As I said, useful idiot.

Hmm... Typical and expected response. You can't answer my direct question but instead choose to put up a smokescreen. Unless of course you don't like to admit the answer which is, I understand, that it's reaching currently less than 40% of at risk people who have been in close proximity to people who have been confirmed as having tested positive.
Oh excuse me, silly mistake! I thought the data being compiled for Worldometers website was collated by the World Health Organisation (WHO). I never realised it was Russia.

[scutty brown]

Hmm... Typical and expected response. You can't answer my direct question but instead choose to put up a smokescreen. Unless of course you don't like to admit the answer which is, I understand, that it's reaching currently less than 40% of at risk people who have been in close proximity to people who have been confirmed as having tested positive.
Oh excuse me, silly mistake! I thought the data being compiled for Worldometers website was collated by the World Health Organisation (WHO). I never realised it was Russia.

The only person putting up a smokescreen is you, trying to divert attention from your pro-Russian bias by bringing up NHS track & trace when it has no relevance. As it happens the part of the NHS I work for isn't involved with T&T and I'm disinclined to comment on it, though I accept that having Dildo Harding in charge is a bad sign: her grandfather was an incompetent fool, promoted way above his abilities and she seems to have inherited his limited capacities.
But back to T&T - you're quoting figures which "you understand" i.e. you don't know the reality so don't really have the ability to make a useful valid comment.
As for the WHO, their figures for Russia must have come from the Russian authorities, who aren't known for their truthfulness.

[j_181]

The Lancet eh? Same Lancet that swallowed Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent evidence about MMR vaccine and published a paper that led to a world-wide spike in measles. Yeah, he got rumbled eventually but it took 12 years before they removed the paper.
Whole incident showed that Doctors, clinicians, British Medical Journal, The Lancet and the biomedical production/publishing industry are not subject to the correct levels of independent scrutiny - they police themselves and are thus liable to be hoodwinked by unscrupulous elements within. Bottom line is it is a £billiion industry - we need to be careful and not wide-eyed and dopey enough to think they will "do the right thing" for us. There will definitely be some out there who will see a Covid vaccine as a huge opportunity to make a ton of money and happily spike their rivals with misinformation, fake news and chicanery. Not much we can do, but don't be thinking that if venerable names like The Lancet are involved then it's all hunky-dory.

Not to mention the Surgisphere debacle

External Link/Members Only

[Wadebridge]

We ought to know by now - a few dead bodies are neither here nor there in any enterprise where the Russians are concerned. I imagine that they`ll try it out first in one of their labour camps in secret and in the unlikely event of any surfeit of deaths becoming known they will simply be put down to all manner of natural causes.

During this long lockdown I think perhaps you've been watching a tad too many 'Rambo' films, old-timer. 

[Happylad]

During this long lockdown I think perhaps you've been watching a tad too many 'Rambo' films, old-timer. 

On the contrary, I`ve been reading the reports of Mr. Putin`s strongest opponent being poisoned by Novichek, whilst the Russian Authorities did their best to convince us he had a stomach upset.  Perhaps they escaped your attention!

           

[Doc Holliday]

Oh excuse me, silly mistake! I thought the data being compiled for Worldometers website was collated by the World Health Organisation (WHO). I never realised it was Russia.

Yes silly mistake. Worldometers has nothing to do with the WHO. The data comes from individual countries. The sources for the data are given on every individual country's page.

[Wadebridge]

Yes silly mistake. Worldometers has nothing to do with the WHO. The data comes from individual countries. The sources for the data are given on every individual country's page.

Yes the statistics will be collected from the various measurement schemes implemented by individual countries, but surely the WHO is ultimately responsible for coordinating and verifying this collective data relating to the global extent of the pandemic.

[webpunter]

But of course the WHO not for a moment blaming the PRC in any way

I wonder how much money the PRC have made producing PPE ?

As for Russia's vaccine they might be playing smart
Hack the UK & other countries research & add to it
Free from western countries testing requirements
Which will produce results - good or bad - more rapidly

but surely the WHO is ultimately responsible for coordinating and verifying this collective data relating to the global extent of the pandemic.

[Wadebridge]

On the contrary, I`ve been reading the reports of Mr. Putin`s strongest opponent being poisoned by Novichek, whilst the Russian Authorities did their best to convince us he had a stomach upset.  Perhaps they escaped your attention!   

No it hadn't escaped my attention. Mr. Lavalny was certainly struck down with something.
Indeed I saw some telly footage recently where we apparently heard the moans and groans of Mr. Lavalny on board an aircraft high above Siberia as whatever had afflicted him started to take hold. The plane then made an emergency landing and he was rushed to a Russian hospital before then, his condition having been deemed stable for further travel to Germany, allowed to be taken there for further medical assistance.
Now the thing is that an emergency landing by a plane would have taken several minutes, probably at minimum half an hour, maybe more, and then he would have had to be ferried to the nearest hospital, adding many more minutes, before he ended up in the emergency treatment ward.
My limited understanding of 'Novichok' is that it was supposedly a lethal acetylcholineesterase inhibitor last produced by Soviet Russia in the late 1970s. We're led to believe that stockpiles of it diminished or were destroyed when the Soviet Union was broken up and ceased to exist at the end of the leadership reign of President Gorbachev.
An acetylcholineesterase inhibitor is, I'm told in layman's speak, a nerve agent, which by its very nature, just like slightly less lethal agents such as Sarin,  act in a swift and deadly way, with fatal consequences or very severe reactions leading to permanent maiming occurring very rapidly within a few minutes or even seconds.
Remember the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo underground several decades ago?
I don't recall that many, or indeed any, of those poor unfortunate commuters afflicted by that atrocious and callous attack came out of that tube train without any lasting permanent damage, and later went on to sell their stories to the press, saying "whew, I came out unscathed, but that was a close call".
We're told Mr. Lavalny, on the other hand, will suffer no permanent affects to his health and looks like, over time, a few weeks at most, will return to a normal life.

[scutty brown]

No it hadn't escaped my attention. Mr. Lavalny was certainly struck down with something.
Indeed I saw some telly footage recently where we apparently heard the moans and groans of Mr. Lavalny on board an aircraft high above Siberia as whatever had afflicted him started to take hold. The plane then made an emergency landing and he was rushed to a Russian hospital before then, his condition having been deemed stable for further travel to Germany, allowed to be taken there for further medical assistance.
Now the thing is that an emergency landing by a plane would have taken several minutes, probably at minimum half an hour, maybe more, and then he would have had to be ferried to the nearest hospital, adding many more minutes, before he ended up in the emergency treatment ward.
My limited understanding of 'Novichok' is that it was supposedly a lethal acetylcholineesterase inhibitor last produced by Soviet Russia in the late 1970s. We're led to believe that stockpiles of it diminished or were destroyed when the Soviet Union was broken up and ceased to exist at the end of the leadership reign of President Gorbachev.
An acetylcholineesterase inhibitor is, I'm told in layman's speak, a nerve agent, which by its very nature, just like slightly less lethal agents such as Sarin,  act in a swift and deadly way, with fatal consequences or very severe reactions leading to permanent maiming occurring very rapidly within a few minutes or even seconds.
Remember the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo underground several decades ago?
I don't recall that many, or indeed any, of those poor unfortunate commuters afflicted by that atrocious and callous attack came out of that tube train without any lasting permanent damage, and later went on to sell their stories to the press, saying "whew, I came out unscathed, but that was a close call".
We're told Mr. Lavalny, on the other hand, will suffer no permanent affects to his health and looks like, over time, a few weeks at most, will return to a normal life.

Sarin and such like are gases and hard to administer on a one-to-one basis. Trying to spray them is as likely to kill the sprayer as the target.
The point of the Novichocks was to make nerve agents which are easier and safer to administer: they are thick liquid or crystalline and so can be pasted or poured without contaminating the deliverer. The Novichocks are NOT necessarily more toxic  than Sarin, they are simply more deliverable.
And FWIW I was offered a whole range of organophosphate nerve agent analogs as research materials from a plant in the closed city of Perm in the late 1980s / early 1990s. Almost certainly the source. (I turned them down - experience with similar materials such as DFP and DNP showed we didn't have the required handling regime in place)

[scutty brown]

But of course the WHO not for a moment blaming the PRC in any way

I wonder how much money the PRC have made producing PPE ?

As for Russia's vaccine they might be playing smart
Hack the UK & other countries research & add to it
Free from western countries testing requirements
Which will produce results - good or bad - more rapidly

The Russians tried that with Konkordski - they were fed fake info. It crashed.
You can expect the current stolen info to be faked as well

[BobAJobMan]

I've not read the whys and wherefores, but it's odd that AstraZeneca picked it up as they're not in the vaccine trade. GSK would have been the obvious British choice, or Sanofi (French) or Merck & Co. (USA). Or some smaller vaccine specialists.

[Happylad]

No it hadn't escaped my attention. Mr. Lavalny was certainly struck down with something.
Indeed I saw some telly footage recently where we apparently heard the moans and groans of Mr. Lavalny on board an aircraft high above Siberia as whatever had afflicted him started to take hold. The plane then made an emergency landing and he was rushed to a Russian hospital before then, his condition having been deemed stable for further travel to Germany, allowed to be taken there for further medical assistance.
Now the thing is that an emergency landing by a plane would have taken several minutes, probably at minimum half an hour, maybe more, and then he would have had to be ferried to the nearest hospital, adding many more minutes, before he ended up in the emergency treatment ward.
My limited understanding of 'Novichok' is that it was supposedly a lethal acetylcholineesterase inhibitor last produced by Soviet Russia in the late 1970s. We're led to believe that stockpiles of it diminished or were destroyed when the Soviet Union was broken up and ceased to exist at the end of the leadership reign of President Gorbachev.
An acetylcholineesterase inhibitor is, I'm told in layman's speak, a nerve agent, which by its very nature, just like slightly less lethal agents such as Sarin,  act in a swift and deadly way, with fatal consequences or very severe reactions leading to permanent maiming occurring very rapidly within a few minutes or even seconds.
Remember the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo underground several decades ago?
I don't recall that many, or indeed any, of those poor unfortunate commuters afflicted by that atrocious and callous attack came out of that tube train without any lasting permanent damage, and later went on to sell their stories to the press, saying "whew, I came out unscathed, but that was a close call".
We're told Mr. Lavalny, on the other hand, will suffer no permanent affects to his health and looks like, over time, a few weeks at most, will return to a normal life.

The German doctors who are now treating him are quite certain that he was poisoned by Novichok, and that is what they are treating him for  Are you saying that they are wrong and that you (not having even seen him) know better than them?

However, the learned treatise that you have just delivered on the subject suggests that you have been sufficiently well briefed on the subject to trot out a load of diversionary codswallop - I wonder by whom?

[winkywanky]

The Russians tried that with Konkordski - they were fed fake info. It crashed.
You can expect the current stolen info to be faked as well

I remember seeing that at the time. Never knew they were fed fake info. That's hilarious (if not a little sad for the test pilot that died).

[winkywanky]

I've not read the whys and wherefores, but it's odd that AstraZeneca picked it up as they're not in the vaccine trade. GSK would have been the obvious British choice, or Sanofi (French) or Merck & Co. (USA). Or some smaller vaccine specialists.

Perhaps this was more to do with production capability on British shores? I don't know.

But if AstraZeneca get the gig, I do hope they clean all the weedkiller out of the pipes first    .

[Wadebridge]

FWIW I was offered a whole range of organophosphate nerve agent analogs as research materials from a plant in the closed city of Perm in the late 1980s / early 1990s. Almost certainly the source. (I turned them down - experience with similar materials such as DFP and DNP showed we didn't have the required handling regime in place)

I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing against you all the time; clearly you have useful background knowledge and experience in this area.
I think the point you are making is that Britain would not have the capability, or the necessary safety regime in place; to be up to some of its own 'hanky-panky' with the 'Novichok' series of nerve agents.
And yet Porton Down managed to identify very quickly the substance that had been allegedly used against the Skripals in Salisbury.
I'm not sure what DFP and DNP are; I've not heard of them before; I assume from what you are implying is that they are quite nasty and toxic substances.

Sarin and such like are gases and hard to administer on a one-to-one basis.

No doubt.
But of course it has been tried before; where droplets of Sarin liquid were administered to the limbs of British military personnel through the thick tunics of their army uniforms, at Porton Down in the 1950s. Unlawfully killing one poor soldier, although no charges were successfully brought.
But I totally get what you are saying ... a potential assassin using Sarin would indeed have great difficulty camouflaging him or herself in full blown protective rubber gear and gas mask.

The point of the Novichocks was to make nerve agents which are easier and safer to administer: they are thick liquid or crystalline and so can be pasted or poured without contaminating the deliverer. The Novichocks are NOT necessarily more toxic than Sarin, they are simply more deliverable.

Okay, here again you are demonstrating better knowledge and expertise than I have in this area, and I feel I must acknowledge that.
Are you saying that there are several variants of Novichok, which have vastly varying degrees of potency?
Wikipedia currently implies not. It states that there are several forms but all are deadly.
It was my previous view that what made the 'Novichok' nerve agent more easily and readily handleable was the safety of transportation aspect; it was made up of two or more  significantly less harmful substances on their own; which were then transformed into a deadly and swift acting 'acetylcholineesterase inhibitor' from the moment they became mixed.
I'm particularly interested and intrigued by the second point that you make; that Novichok might not be as deadly as Sarin.
According to Wikipedia currently, it is tens of times more deadly.
And as regards its safe deliverability, we can also see the effect it had on a scientist who inhaled its vapours the moment the two or more innocuous substances were mixed.
But the most intriguing aspect is how this remarkable 'Novichok' can deliver such debilitating effects, and yet without long lasting health damage, to 'victims' like the Skripals and Mr. Lavalny given the such inordinately long time delays involved before receiving some kind of medical help and 'antidote' treatment.
It may well be, as you say, that Novichoks are more easily deliverable, but once they get onto the victims skin their action would surely be just as swift and deadly as other acetylcholineesterase inhibitors like Sarin.
And if supposedly the toxicity of the substance diminishes over the time that it was placed on a surface to the point at which the victim came into contact with it, then that is a flawed argument as well. Since such a nerve inhibitor would (a) either still have the potency to inhibit the muscular 'off switch' or (b) be weakened to such an extent that it did not have this capability at all.
So all in all, a lot of so called 'facts' stink about the whole business with these 'Novichok' episodes, and in my view, there is undoubtedly a lot of 'fiction' about.

[scutty brown]

Perhaps this was more to do with production capability on British shores? I don't know.

But if AstraZeneca get the gig, I do hope they clean all the weedkiller out of the pipes first    .

More to do with logisitics - Astra Zeneca are specialists in respiratory diseases and have the packaging and distribution wrapped up. Actual manufacture of the active ingredient is being subbed out to a specialist business, it only needs a few thousand litres capacity

[Wadebridge]

The German doctors who are now treating him are quite certain that he was poisoned by Novichok, and that is what they are treating him for  Are you saying that they are wrong and that you (not having even seen him) know better than them?

Err, actually they did not.
The German authorities' official press release actually stated that "they were certain that Mr. Lavalny had been poisoned by some kind of acetylcholineesterase inhibitor".
Subtle difference!
They were careful and cautious enough not to incriminate themselves and explicitly use the term Novichok.
You did that!
And if you care to reread my post, you'll see that I acknowledged and agreed that Mr. Lavalny had indeed been 'struck down by something'.
On a side note Mr. Happylad, interesting that you are so keen to jump on side with the Germans, against whom you were too young to fight but no doubt had a few choice expletives to say about 'Jerry' during the war.
And yet seem so keen to condemn the Russians, who were, as I'm sure you haven't forgotten, our staunch allies during the war.

[lostandfound]

The Oxford vaccine - manufacture arranged by AZN - is just one of a number of vaccine candidates the UK gov has signed up for, including with GSK / Sanofi and others. Gov has said it seeks to arrange contracts for up to a dozen vaccine candidates.

External Link/Members Only

[scutty brown]

Novichock isn't one chemical.
It was a USSR research project to devise new-generation nerve agents which were more stable, easier to deliver, and safer to handle. The number of chemicals produced and tested was large - but the Russians never revealed just how large. They are all organophosphate molecules of one kind or another, closely related to OP insecticides.
The point of the program was to make them more deliverable - not neccesarily more toxic, and I think you'll find that less toxic but more stable variants are what the Russians are using for the assasination attempts.
You say Britain doesn't have the ability to handle these: not true. Porton Down would have the ability, and it wouldn't be difficult to build manufacturing plant. In fact during the 1950s and 1960s the UK had a nerve gas plant at Nancekuke in Cornwall, long since closed. My comments about being unable to handle them were related to the company I then worked at, who were specialists in supplying unusual materials for research. DFP and DNP were two WW2 nerve agents created by the germans, but nowadays they do have other uses. DFP for instance is used in minute concentration in eyedrops for treating glaucauma. Both were made for me by a guy in his kitchen - he used to fatten himself up to about 20 stone before he made a batch to help during the inevitable time in hospital afterwards. It was knowledge of his manufacturing process, and the difficulty we had in packaging the stuff that made me decline the offer of newer analogues from the Perm facility. Just too risky.
But it does underly the fact that if you are prepared to accept a degree of personal risk some nerve agents can be made in improvised conditions. IF you can get the raw materials

----edit----
I overlooked your comment about binary nerve agents. I've seen nothing to suggest that the materials the Russians used in Salisbury were binary - if anything using a binary agent in small quantities where you need it to linger would have been counterproductive.
What WAS suspected to be a binary agent though details were never confirmed, was the North Korean murder of Kim il Sung's brother