Author Topic: Afua Hirsch  (Read 7204 times)

Offline lostandfound

The two can be separated, and easily and frequently are.

But you just can't stop being patronising. So go ahead, you're welcome to the last word.

 :lol: Fuck me - surely you can do better than that ...  :hi:

Offline Squire Haggard

She just hates this country and it's history.

External Link/Members Only

She should be told to fuck off. Nelson got his column because of his victory at Trafalgar, aided by the fact that he got killed in the process. She, on the other hand got her column simply because she is Deirdre Spart from an ethnic minority. Her column should be pulled down instead.

PS. Its interesting that the link in the OP's post has no comments after it, but the Trafalgar one has. It could be that the Gruinard does not want a ferocious response following her article, shredding it in the process.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 03:51:14 pm by Squire Haggard »

Offline King Nuts

She should be told to fuck off. Nelson got his column because of his victory at Trafalgar, aided by the fact that he got killed in the process. She, on the other hand got her column simply because she is Deirdre Spart from an ethnic minority. Her column should be pulled down instead.

PS. Its interesting that the link in the OP's post has no comments after it, but the Trafalgar one has. It could be that the Gruinard does not want a ferocious response following her article, shredding it in the process.

'Deirdre Spart'. Arf.

True, the Guardian's 'opinion' page seems to permit fewer and fewer responses. Just as well, maybe.



Offline christofferson

Who would have thought that anyone could start gobbing off about racial stuff in the middle of a pandemic.
Staggering how low some people will stoop.

Offline jc1971

What Hirsch always fails to mention is that Bangladeshis have the highest rates of poverty and overcrowding of any ethnic group within the UK. They also have one of the lowest rates of Covid infection. This failure in my view destroys the integrity and professionalism of Hirsch.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 04:06:30 pm by jc1971 »

Offline hornyguylondon

The issue for a lot of people is that this is effectively the removal of our cultural heritage. Regardless of whether the past is good, bad or indifferent it's the history of our country and important to those who value that. 
If your not happy with my cultural heritage i'll do a deal - I won't touch what cultural heritage is important to you if you don't touch what's important to me ;)
Hopefully this is taken in the spirit intended  :)

Online Doc Holliday

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What Hirsch always fails to mention is that Bangladeshis have the highest rates of poverty and overcrowding of any ethnic group within the UK. They also have one of the lowest rates of Covid infection.

Do you have a data source for that? Thanks.

Online Doc Holliday

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And if BAME people are dying in disproportionate numbers, it's going to take months if not years of research to truly understand why.

Absolutely. It is extremely complex as there are many 'overlapping' causative aetiological factors.

What really annoyed me about the article was the 'demand' something has to be done to stop it. The reality is whatever the ethnicity of those that die (most of whom are white) nothing can currently be done to save them anyway.

Offline NIK

Ironically, I started a similar thread recently and got lambasted as a ‘racist’ by our resident ‘Hope not Hate’ merchants.
I don’t care what people say, there are many wankers who are determined to cry ‘racism’ at every turn. If it didn’t exist they still wouldn’t be content, but would invent it.
And we seem to have plenty of such people on here these days.
I am not saying racism doesn’t exist, but it is wildly exaggerated by those with an agenda who ironically would hate it if racism was actually totally eradicated as their lives would no longer have any purpose.

Offline NIK

Just glanced at the headline- why the fuck is ‘people of colour’ acceptable amongst such tits yet ‘coloured people’ isn’t?  :unknown: :unknown:  Surely both terms are equally ‘offensive’?
They really are bell ends!  :dash: :hi:

Offline winkywanky

Ironically, I started a similar thread recently and got lambasted as a ‘racist’ by our resident ‘Hope not Hate’ merchants.
I don’t care what people say, there are many wankers who are determined to cry ‘racism’ at every turn. If it didn’t exist they still wouldn’t be content, but would invent it.
And we seem to have plenty of such people on here these days.
I am not saying racism doesn’t exist, but it is wildly exaggerated by those with an agenda who ironically would hate it if racism was actually totally eradicated as their lives would no longer have any purpose.


Nik, if I may, when you talk about stuff like this you're immediately combative and seemingly reluctant to engage in any actual discussion about it.

Fairly immediately, anyone who engages with you in any way which isn't in total agreement, is instantly pigeonholed as a wishy-washy liberal by yourself.

This stuff is seldom black and white if you'll pardon the pun. So with an attitude like that you're quickly labelled as a racist when infact I suspect you'd be in agreement with quite a few people if it weren't for your arsey attitude.

That's my take on it, and you can tell me to fuck off if you want  :hi:.

Offline NIK


Nik, if I may, when you talk about stuff like this you're immediately combative and seemingly reluctant to engage in any actual discussion about it.

Fairly immediately, anyone who engages with you in any way which isn't in total agreement, is instantly pigeonholed as a wishy-washy liberal by yourself.

This stuff is seldom black and white if you'll pardon the pun. So with an attitude like that you're quickly labelled as a racist when infact I suspect you'd be in agreement with quite a few people if it weren't for your arsey attitude.

That's my take on it, and you can tell me to fuck off if you want  :hi:.

The reason I am like this is because over the years I have become totally pissed off with the way the liberal left have tried to control not only what I and everyone else is allowed to say but even what We are allowed to think.
And you say I am not happy with people having other views. Then am I any different to the liberal left who ‘no platform’ those with other views?

Orwell’s thought police have been among us for years.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 10:43:22 pm by NIK »

Offline winkywanky

Then unfortunately you'll simply be sidelined as a racist by most, and disregarded by them.

Offline King Nuts

Then unfortunately you'll simply be sidelined as a racist by most, and disregarded by them.

Not by most. There's a mass of people out there who are largely silent, until they get to the ballot box. They've had it with the lecturing, had it with the bias, had it with being told all the time that they're racist, or that Britain is 'structurally racist' or whatever.

But these are not the sort of people who flood social media or forums like this with their views. Mostly because they can't be bothered, but also because they have jobs to do, kids to look after, and so on.

It's at the ballot box where they speak. Which is why the bien-pensant, lefty, sanctimonious British media didn't see the Brexit vote result coming, and has been in a sulk ever since.

It's almost impossible for the likes of Ms Hirsch to understand that beyond her physical and mental domain, there are regular, decent people who are patriots, who care about their neighbours whether they're called Dave or Abdul, who work hard but wonder why, for instance, organised boatloads of men are landing on the Sussex coast every day at the moment, with the apparent complicity of HM Government while everyone else is in lockdown and fearful for the future.

So no, NIK is not out of step. Nor am I. Nor is anyone who's able to grasp the twin concepts of being happy to be in Britain AND extending a welcome to people who want to come here because they want to improve their own lives and to contribute to our society.


Offline King Nuts



What really annoyed me about the article was the 'demand' something has to be done to stop it.

This is how the Spart-ite Left works:

1. Identify a problem that has no immediate or obvious cause or reason
2. Demand of the government that Something Must Be Done
3. When nothing is immediately done (because nothing is ever immediately 'done' by governments), blame everyone and everything in sight, including those who haven't joined in with their indignation.



Offline King Nuts

More reasons not to trust the BBC:

1. Panorama's infiltration by Labour activists: External Link/Members Only

2. This morning, the BBC News is trumpeting that more Americans have died of CV than in Vietnam. A meaningless comparison. But all part of the BBC's anti-US and anti-Trump agenda. These are the figures to look at. Click on Deaths per Million people to get a truer sense of the scale. External Link/Members Only

3. Addiitonal analysis of Trump's 'bleach' comments shows some disingenuous editing: External Link/Members Only

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This is how the Spart-ite Left works:

1. Identify a problem that has no immediate or obvious cause or reason
2. Demand of the government that Something Must Be Done
3. When nothing is immediately done (because nothing is ever immediately 'done' by governments), blame everyone and everything in sight, including those who haven't joined in with their indignation.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with that, my point was much simpler.

Imagine you are a Critical Care Consultant who, like all your colleagues up and down the country, has seen their working lives turned upside down by a new virus which means that 50% of the patients in your care will die and you are unable to prevent it. Their loved ones are largely unable to be with them at that time. You don't have sufficient PPE etc and even with it you are risking being infected and ending up in your own ward.

Then a journalist turns up and starts doing a head count saying there seems to be one too many BAME patients in this ward than I would expect to see? The Government needs to sort this, we need an urgent enquiry.

FFS get your priorities right. 

« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 09:28:26 am by Doc Holliday »

Offline mh

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Just glanced at the headline- why the fuck is ‘people of colour’ acceptable amongst such tits yet ‘coloured people’ isn’t?

It is subtle, but people do not like to be defined solely by one aspect of their physical appearance, ability etc. If you are healthy, not living in poverty and white (in this majority white country) like I am, then you will rarely, if ever, be given a minority label that "defines" you. But still you wouldn't want to be defined as one aspect of your character.

But people do still need to talk about the aspects that causes issues with access to transport, work or causes discrimination to them. So they use language such as "a person of colour" - and I hate that phrase as much as you do, but I understand it - or "person with a disability", "person living in poverty" etc, etc.

Online Doc Holliday

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More reasons not to trust the BBC:

3. Addiitonal analysis of Trump's 'bleach' comments shows some disingenuous editing: External Link/Members Only

Thanks for that link. Pretty conclusive re the BBC editing and guilty as charged. I am also pleased the commentator still acknowledges Trump's confusion and that he should have still been aware of the dangers of bleach before asking the question.

I personally knew about the prior scientific briefing because I had watched some of it separately. The majority of BBC viewers maybe would not?

Offline winkywanky

More reasons not to trust the BBC:

1. Panorama's infiltration by Labour activists: External Link/Members Only

2. This morning, the BBC News is trumpeting that more Americans have died of CV than in Vietnam. A meaningless comparison. But all part of the BBC's anti-US and anti-Trump agenda. These are the figures to look at. Click on Deaths per Million people to get a truer sense of the scale. External Link/Members Only

3. Addiitonal analysis of Trump's 'bleach' comments shows some disingenuous editing: External Link/Members Only


I don't know about the Panorama and the 'Labour Activists' but the strong views that PPE supplies are proving very difficult to procure, there had been (and is still) a shortage, and that the govt decided not to be part of an EU supply chain are ALL TRUE. There was plenty of footage of the govt position on this, that they are pulling the stops out etc. They are gradually getting there but it's clear mistakes were made and they're learning as they go along (a large part of which is understandable, and I think the programme said that). So the programme WAS NOT misleading despite your point about the background of interviewees.

The thing about Vietnam. Well it is relevant to the US (what happened there is a big part of the US psyche). But I would agree it's not related to any pandemic, it simply puts numbers of deaths into perspective. I should imagine the comparison has been made on US TV, in the same way that we compare numbers of deaths with our own UK tragedies, infatc early on I remember a comparison with Terrorist-related deaths, of course that's long since superseded now.

'Disingenuous editing' by the BBC...are you having a laugh?  :lol: I just wasted 11mins of my life watching that tripe. Carefully edited to make Pence disappear, making it look like Trump came out ranting? what utter tripe. It's an edited news item on a news bulletin FFS. True, not all the context and lead-up to Trump's gormless comments was shown, that would have made the item much, much longer in what is a 30min bulletin with lots to fit in. THE FACTS ARE: some scientific people came out and said that UV light (sunshine) and warm temperatures will kill the virus, as will various disinfectants and alcohol, this is on surfaces. None of that is groundbreaking, it happens with other viruses and is to be expected. There was talk weeks ago that CV would probably find it tougher to proliferate in summer, the same as flu and colds.

So, on the back of that, Trump starts talking earnestly about putting 'hitting the body with UV light' and then even INSIDE the human body, and also of putting disinfectant in the body. Now that is the type of thing a seven yr-old would say. He completely got hold of the wrong end of the stick, and has stated Live On Air, being networked ALL OVER the US that we need to consider these methods to prevent Covid-19. THAT IS FACT. That is a very alarming fact. This man is the leader of the most powerful planet on earth. The BBC report gave a very fair analysis of exactly what happened, and it is frankly downright scary what the orange-faced imbecile says on a daily basis.

The twat who put together that piece does actually mention that all the other UK networks did pretty well the same thing, so for you to single out the BBC is perhaps disingenuous in itself. If you think the UK TV Media are bent, then feel free to do so. How the guy keeps a straight face while he bangs on about how Trump is so hard done by is a joke in itself.

And then you post it up as a glaring example of BBC bias in their hatred of Trump? Do me a favour.





« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 09:56:20 am by winkywanky »

Offline winkywanky

Thanks for that link. Pretty conclusive re the BBC editing and guilty as charged. I am also pleased the commentator still acknowledges Trump's confusion and that he should have still been aware of the dangers of bleach before asking the question.

I personally knew about the prior scientific briefing because I had watched some of it separately. The majority of BBC viewers maybe would not?


Really?

You think that was edited to make Trump look like a fool?

It was edited to length, Trump makes himself look like a fool, and everyone else has to clear up the mess.

I think the vast majority of anyone over the age of seven and with a sound mind, would realise that putting detergent inside your body (or even UV sources) is rubbish.

And if they'd sat through 20mins of briefing they certainly wouldn't come up with Trump's laughable conclusions.

Online Doc Holliday

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Really?

You think that was edited to make Trump look like a fool?

It was edited to length, Trump makes himself look like a fool, and everyone else has to clear up the mess.

I think the vast majority of anyone over the age of seven and with a sound mind, would realise that putting detergent inside your body (or even UV sources) is rubbish.

And if they'd sat through 20mins of briefing they certainly wouldn't come up with Trump's laughable conclusions.

Yes he is a fool and I had previously said this on the subject https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=277147.msg2851522#msg2851522 as well as mentioning it again here.

However accepting that it needs editing to length and also allowing for the youtube clip commentator having an agenda and using similar editing tricks, I still think the BBC editing was poor and I would say deliberately attempting to make Trump look worse ... although I am not sure that is possible  :D

Offline King Nuts


I don't know about the Panorama and the 'Labour Activists'

The thing about Vietnam. Well it is relevant to the US (what happened there is a big part of the US psyche). But I would agree it's not related to any pandemic, it simply puts numbers of deaths into perspective.

'Disingenuous editing' by the BBC...are you having a laugh? 

Panorama? Well, you know now.

Vietnam comparison? No, it doesn't put it into perspective. Certainly not from a British viewpoint. 'Perspective' is comparing to present day deaths from other sources, or from CV deaths from around the world. Which of course the BBC would never do if there's a tabloid-style headline to be grabbed from somewhere else.

As regards that clip. I drew one conclusion, you drew another. Interesting.

Offline winkywanky

Yes he is a fool and I had previously said this on the subject https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=277147.msg2851522#msg2851522 as well as mentioning it again here.

However accepting that it needs editing to length and also allowing for the youtube clip commentator having an agenda and using similar editing tricks, I still think the BBC editing was poor and I would say deliberately attempting to make Trump look worse ... although I am not sure that is possible  :D


Some things to note:

clips DO need to be edited to a suitable length. What matters is that the meaning of what someone says isn't changed. That hasn't happened here. Not only that, the rubbish about making Trump look like he just 'came out ranting'. Well no he didn't, he was speaking quite calmly, which is even more scary. And Pence 'disappearing'? Utter rubbish. Trump gives a briefing from the Whitehouse, it's completely normal to have a 'scene-setting shot' of Trump walking out to his podium, with the media gathered before him. Every cameraman in the room will have taken that shot, and then as he settled, go in for a closer shot. Bigger networks will have a second camera to take shots of other people in the room, and to take reaction shots. That's all normal.

Worth noting too, perhaps a day later, further footage emerged of a single shot of that woman expert who was sat down to his RHS (perhaps off someone's phone?) This showed her reaction at the very moment Trump started talking dangerous shite. Her look said everything.

Edited to make Trump look worse? This press conference was for the the people of America, he's not talking to us in the UK so his daily recommendations are different from ours - but it's interesting and valid to see how other countries are dealing with the pandemic. And like I say, the US are the most powerful nation on earth, they speak English and what Trump says actually has ramifications around the world. So in this case the 'headline'of this story if you will, is the fact that the POTUS has spontaneously started talking dangerous shite which is liable to encourage the confused or the mentally deficient (like Trump himself) to swallow disinfectant.

That is a big story. And then it's quite valid (nay, important) to have some experts come on-screen and give the reasons why no-one should try this at home, because it's liable to kill them.

Offline winkywanky

Panorama? Well, you know now.

Vietnam comparison? No, it doesn't put it into perspective. Certainly not from a British viewpoint. 'Perspective' is comparing to present day deaths from other sources, or from CV deaths from around the world. Which of course the BBC would never do if there's a tabloid-style headline to be grabbed from somewhere else.

As regards that clip. I drew one conclusion, you drew another. Interesting.


You draw a conclusion because your agenda is clear: the British media (or specifically for you, the BBC, because you don't like the way they spend your money by telling you stuff you don't want to hear) keep showing what shit Trump talks, on a daily basis.

Do you really think the BBC (or all the other mainstream media outlets) misrepresented what a complete and utter arse Trump made of himself, in regards to that press conference?

Every day you're defending the indefensible, when you defend Trump's many faux-pas and general bollocks.

Offline King Nuts


You draw a conclusion because your agenda is clear: the British media (or specifically for you, the BBC, because you don't like the way they spend your money by telling you stuff you don't want to hear) keep showing what shit Trump talks, on a daily basis.

Do you really think the BBC (or all the other mainstream media outlets) misrepresented what a complete and utter arse Trump made of himself, in regards to that press conference?

Every day you're defending the indefensible, when you defend Trump's many faux-pas and general bollocks.

You're getting ranty and personal. It doesn't suit you.

No, I don't like the way BBC News works. I think the bias runs deep. BBC Drama likewise.

I am not 'defending' Trump. Just picking apart some of the ways the media portrays him. Yes, he puts his foot in it. Frequently. But to my mind, and I am not remotely alone in this, the mainstream media has had it in for him from day one, and I simply no longer trust any of the major outlets from telling me or reporting the truth.


Offline King Nuts


You draw a conclusion because your agenda is clear: the British media (or specifically for you, the BBC, because you don't like the way they spend your money by telling you stuff you don't want to hear) keep showing what shit Trump talks, on a daily basis.

Do you really think the BBC (or all the other mainstream media outlets) misrepresented what a complete and utter arse Trump made of himself, in regards to that press conference?

Every day you're defending the indefensible, when you defend Trump's many faux-pas and general bollocks.

OK, so let me put this another way.

Suppose we all agree that Trump is the biggest cunt ever to walk the face of the earth, and that Bozza's an arse, Sir Keir Starmer is a saint, that the NHS has been fucked over by the Tories who secretly want to see it dismantled and all poor people dead.

Do we want the BBC to feed back to us what we want to hear? Do we just want confirmation that we're right? Depends whether you believe the BBC should reflect society and popular thought, or follow the Reithian principle of enlightenment.

The truth is, that it needs to do and be a bit of both. But from time to time, it could do with re-calibrating.


Jeez... at times like this, I wish Orwell was still around. He'd have something to say about all this malarkey.




Offline winkywanky

You're getting ranty and personal. It doesn't suit you.

No, I don't like the way BBC News works. I think the bias runs deep. BBC Drama likewise.

I am not 'defending' Trump. Just picking apart some of the ways the media portrays him. Yes, he puts his foot in it. Frequently. But to my mind, and I am not remotely alone in this, the mainstream media has had it in for him from day one, and I simply no longer trust any of the major outlets from telling me or reporting the truth.

It does seem clear from your posts, both about Trump and about the BBC, that that's how you feel. That's a reasonable conclusion to be drawn, please correct me if it isn't?

In that sense it's personal, but it's not directed at you as such, it's directed at your thoughts on these two things. I genuinely mean no offence, but your arguments are coming from those stwo places, distrust of the BBC (and you don't like the licence fee) and your like of Trump.

FWIW I see where Trump is coming from generally, and I agree with some of what he says, and many of his sentiments. America is hurting, it needs to feel better about itself. It feels abused by many other parts of the world and its power is waning. The US has generally been a force for good in the world, especially against Communism. China is indeed the big new threat, and they've got where they are today to a large degree, by stealing from others and from subjugating any dissent at home. They don't give a flying fuck about climate change or the environment and this will assist their rsie even further and more quickly.

All that needs challenging, and if Trump does so then that's good.

His general thrust is reasonable to very many (often, even to me), but the way he wants to go about it and the stuff he says, are liable to cause confusion and he frequently downright lies through his teeth. Do you think none of that should be shown? THAT is even more dangerous.

And his personal response to CV has been laughable, he's completely out of his depth and the world is rightly amazed at the man's frequent stupidity.

Unfortunate but true.

Offline Beamer

You're getting ranty and personal. It doesn't suit you.

No, I don't like the way BBC News works. I think the bias runs deep. BBC Drama likewise.

I am not 'defending' Trump. Just picking apart some of the ways the media portrays him. Yes, he puts his foot in it. Frequently. But to my mind, and I am not remotely alone in this, the mainstream media has had it in for him from day one, and I simply no longer trust any of the major outlets from telling me or reporting the truth.

As the alleged leader of the western world the mainstream media are rightly interested in what Trump has to say.
The fact that he spouts rubbish (e.g. injecting bleach) was not made up.  His accusations that some of the media (e.g. CNN) are fake news doesn't help his ability to be seen for who he should be.
If you no longer trust any of the major outlets from telling or reporting the truth where do you get your news from?
Also, am not sure how you can state you are not remotely alone in this?


Offline winkywanky

OK, so let me put this another way.

Suppose we all agree that Trump is the biggest cunt ever to walk the face of the earth, and that Bozza's an arse, Sir Keir Starmer is a saint, that the NHS has been fucked over by the Tories who secretly want to see it dismantled and all poor people dead.

Do we want the BBC to feed back to us what we want to hear? Do we just want confirmation that we're right? Depends whether you believe the BBC should reflect society and popular thought, or follow the Reithian principle of enlightenment.

The truth is, that it needs to do and be a bit of both. But from time to time, it could do with re-calibrating.


Jeez... at times like this, I wish Orwell was still around. He'd have something to say about all this malarkey.


For a start off I don't agree with all of that. Any of that, actually, as purely blanket statements.

You're assuming all those things so that you can pigeonhole me (or my argument) as a raving Lefty who believes everything the BBC says (even if it's crap). You're capable of a far more nuanced debate than that (I'm not being patronising, you're personally far more successful than I from what I can make out), you understand reason and you can fucking spell and write properly  :D.

Trump is out of his depth, he frequently lies and the Whitehouse have to clear up the mess after him. That stuff can't be hidden. It could be in Russia or China of course, but I don't think you want to live there, do you?

I actually quite like Johnson, and I'm interested to see where he'll take us with Brexit, and how he'll fight off the worst excesses of Trump's America, while trying to trade successfully with them. I'm also interested to see whether his recent life-threatening illness has changed him in any way (I don't mean that as a dig) because those situations have a habit of doing that. Having said that, our decision (taken by him no doubt) to resist joining up with the EUs' PPE supply-chain was a big mistake, taken to prove we don't need the EU. Very silly, and could have backfired badly if it actually had worked.

Why is Keir Starmer a Saint? I didn't vote Labour last time, and we don't know how he'll be as the new leader of Labour. Certainly he'll be better than Corbyn because Corbyn was a complete arse, and with him at the helm they would never have got into power.

The Tories have fucked over the NHS? I don't think they have, and I think under Cameron they did OK. And getting back to my earlier point, he openly admits the way he regarded the NHS was changed for the better when his son died (I read Cameron's book For The Record) . Another life-changing situation which changed someone's outlook on something very important, and very dear to the UK as a whole. I actually think the NHS needs radcial reform, but overall it will STILL need more money as a % of GDP, and the basic tenets should always remain the same, ie basically free care for all, at the point of delivery, whatever your means. Within those concrete bounds I think it can be made better and more financially accountable. The way Germany goes about things is perhaps a good example (those bloody Germans again  :rolleyes:).

The BBC. The truth is, that it needs to do and be a bit of both. But from time to time, it could do with re-calibrating. Very true, and I've said as much recently on here as you know, they're currently too preachy. A lot of that will be because of the Luvvie Tony Hall as Director General. Well he's going soon, so watch this space. Previous DGs have all put their mark on the BBC, Michael Chequebook (Checkland), John Birt, Thompson, Greg Dyke (gone too soon, and fucked over by a post-Iraq Blair/Campbell), the list goes on.

But just like the NHS, it needs to evolve to suit the modern day, but the vast majority I believe will want both of those because of what they stand for, and what they deliver.





« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 11:39:35 am by winkywanky »

Offline King Nuts


For a start off I don't agree with all of that. Any of that, actually, as purely blanket statements.

You're assuming all those things so that you can pigeonhole me (or my argument) as a raving Lefty who believes everything the BBC says (even if it's crap). You're capable of a far more nuanced debate than that (I'm not being patronising, you're personally far more successful than I from what I can make out), you understand reason and you can fucking spell and write properly  :D.

Trump is out of his depth, he frequently lies and the Whitehouse have to clear up the mess after him. That stuff can't be hidden. It could be in Russia or China of course, but I don't think you want to live there, do you?

I actually quite like Johnson, and I'm interested to see where he'll take us with Brexit, and how he'll fight off the worst excesses of Trump's America, while trying to trade successfully with them. I'm also interested to see whether his recent life-threatening illness has changed him in any way (I don't mean that as a dig) because those situations have a habit of doing that. Having said that, our decision (taken by him no doubt) to resist joining up with the EUs' PPE supply-chain was a big mistake, taken to prove we don't need the EU. Very silly, and could have backfired badly if it actually had worked.

Why is Keir Starmer a Saint? I didn't vote Labour last time, and we don't know how he'll be as the new leader of Labour. Certainly he'll be better than Corbyn because Corbyn was a complete arse, and with him at the helm they would never have got into power.

The Tories have fucked over the NHS? I don't think they have, and I think under Cameron they did OK. And getting back to my earlier point, he openly admits the way he regarded the NHS was changed for the better when his son died (I read Cameron's book For The Record) . Another life-changing situation which changed someone's outlook on something very important, and very dear to the UK as a whole. I actually think the NHS needs radcial reform, but overall it will STILL need more money as a % of GDP, and the basic tenets should always remain the same, ie basically free care for all, at the point of delivery, whatever your means. Within those concrete bounds I think it can be made better and more financially accountable. The way Germany goes about things is perhaps a good example (those bloody Germans again  :rolleyes:).

The BBC. The truth is, that it needs to do and be a bit of both. But from time to time, it could do with re-calibrating. Very true, and I've said as much recently on here as you know, they're currently too preachy. A lot of that will be because of the Luvvie Tony Hall as Director General. Well he's going soon, so watch this space. Previous DGs have all put their mark on the BBC, Michael Chequebook (Checkland), John Birt, Thompson, Greg Dyke (gone too soon, and fucked over by a post-Iraq Blair/Campbell), the list goes on.

But just like the NHS, it needs to evolve to suit the modern day, but the vast majority I believe will want both of those because of what they stand for, and what they deliver.

Thank you. Good post. And FYI I wasn't aiming to pigeonhole you personally, just using some glib (and bordering on facetious) examples to make a point.

But then, I'm a bit like that.



Offline winkywanky

I would never have said that  :unknown:  :D  ;)

Offline The High Sparrow


I don't know about the Panorama and the 'Labour Activists' but the strong views that PPE supplies are proving very difficult to procure, there had been (and is still) a shortage, and that the govt decided not to be part of an EU supply chain are ALL TRUE. There was plenty of footage of the govt position on this, that they are pulling the stops out etc. They are gradually getting there but it's clear mistakes were made and they're learning as they go along (a large part of which is understandable, and I think the programme said that). So the programme WAS NOT misleading despite your point about the background of interviewees.



This ☝️

The (failure) testing strategy this country is based on the fact that the government was caught with it pants down and unable to meet the contact tracing strategy WHO in mid-March.

Offline lostandfound

The news that day, as reported across the world, was that Trump had made a twat of himself. If the BBC had not shown that it would have been extremely weird. Claiming that it somehow proves that the BBC is biased or corrupt merely exposes the confirmation bias of those who make that claim.

Offline GreyDave

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Jeez... at times like this, I wish Orwell was still around. He'd have something to say about all this malarkey.

Your ar quite right Sir :hi:  how ever Eric would of said it as George as he felt uncomfortable as Eric   :unknown: :unknown:


Offline GreyDave

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The news that day, as reported across the world, was that Trump had made a twat of himself. If the BBC had not shown that it would have been extremely weird. Claiming that it somehow proves that the BBC is biased or corrupt merely exposes the confirmation bias of those who make that claim.

Sadly the media as they dont like him throw themselfs in to saying he is a prat rather than looking at the issue of day. (and ignoring him which would be better for all )

So a 30 min graphed explained by others and experts conference gets reported for a 2 line statement from some one who the world already knows is not compus mentis :hi: :hi:

Offline lostandfound

Sadly the media as they dont like him throw themselfs in to saying he is a prat rather than looking at the issue of day. (and ignoring him which would be better for all )

So a 30 min graphed explained by others and experts conference gets reported for a 2 line statement from some one who the world already knows is not compus mentis :hi: :hi:

Trump making a twat of himself was the issue of the day. He was the news.

Offline NIK

Trump is indeed out if his depth in politics. He can’t speak for toffee and actually makes George Bush, the previous worst public speaker, seem like a great orator.
However, the fact that he isn’t a politician who speaks the routine bland political cliches is refreshing and what makes people vote for him.
If you notice every politician will respond to a simple question that requires a clear yes no answer with ‘Look.... and then they rabbit on for 5 minutes until the sense of the original question has been muddied. Matt Hancock is a classic example of this. But they are nearly all the same. They have all presumably had the same media training. Trump is totally different. Boris is actually the only British politician who doesn’t conform to the typical political type and even he still has much of the politician about him.
Going back to the sainted democrats Clinton and Obama, both admittedly thousands of times better speakers than Trump or Bush, but can anyone now remember a single word of what they said?
And yes, I already anticipate someone saying ‘I did not have sex with that woman,’ so that doesn’t count.  :D

Offline King Nuts

Trump is indeed out if his depth in politics. He can’t speak for toffee and actually makes George Bush, the previous worst public speaker, seem like a great orator.
However, the fact that he isn’t a politician who speaks the routine bland political cliches is refreshing and what makes people vote for him.


I think you're right about this. I think another thing to consider is context. Trump's a New Yorker. And if you're a real New Yorker, you don't leave Manhattan any more than you need to. Manhattan is full of guys like Trump. Bragging and braying. My dick's bigger than your dick. My property portfolio is bigger than yours. I've fucked more women than you have. And so on. It's all considered perfectly normal there. Or at least, not abnormal.

Outside of Manhattan, you have to moderate it a bit. Maybe this is him already turned down a few notches.

Offline mh

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...the strong views that PPE supplies are proving very difficult to procure, there had been (and is still) a shortage, and that the govt decided not to be part of an EU supply chain are ALL TRUE. There was plenty of footage of the govt position on this, that they are pulling the stops out etc. They are gradually getting there but it's clear mistakes were made and they're learning as they go along (a large part of which is understandable, and I think the programme said that).

The failure to secure PPE for the NHS and care homes (and ventilators for that matter, though the demand for these seems to be lower than first feared) is down to one thing, in my opinion - leaving procurement of this stuff to the market. Every organisation who needs it, nationally and internationally is competing for it, driving the prices up. I think it was Cuomo in NY who said exactly this about ventilators - he was in a bidding war for equipment against other states and it was barmy.

There are factories in China producing the PPE. Some existing companies, some brand new. The kit being produced varies from medical grade, high quality to shoddy, low quality. But without centralised, coordinated procurement for the NHS and care homes it is a lottery as to who gets what and when.

Offline Chorley

Trump making a twat of himself was the issue of the day. He was the news.
Doesn't matter though. His base is so sizeable, and to be frank, fucking blindly stupidly loyal , that I'd be amazed if he didn't get a second term.

Offline hornyguylondon

Doesn't matter though. His base is so sizeable, and to be frank, fucking blindly stupidly loyal , that I'd be amazed if he didn't get a second term.

Agree, reminds me of Momentum with Jeremy Corbin  ;)

Offline winkywanky

Doesn't matter though. His base is so sizeable, and to be frank, fucking blindly stupidly loyal , that I'd be amazed if he didn't get a second term.


That depends, if all those who follow him blindly decide to adopt Donald's Top Health Tips as part of their daily Covid-19 avoidance regime, they'll pretty soon be dropping like flies  :D.

Offline NIK

It is subtle, but people do not like to be defined solely by one aspect of their physical appearance, ability etc. If you are healthy, not living in poverty and white (in this majority white country) like I am, then you will rarely, if ever, be given a minority label that "defines" you. But still you wouldn't want to be defined as one aspect of your character.

But people do still need to talk about the aspects that causes issues with access to transport, work or causes discrimination to them. So they use language such as "a person of colour" - and I hate that phrase as much as you do, but I understand it - or "person with a disability", "person living in poverty" etc, etc.

Yes, but you still haven't explained why people of colour is acceptable yet coloured people isn't. I can accept the latter is offensive as it marks them out to be different to the norm (we are all coloured in some way), but people of colour is surely equally offensive? Just changing a noun with a pre modifier into a noun phrase doesn't lessen the offense as far as I can see. I would love someone to be able to explain this properly to me, but I doubt anyone can because it's totally illogical.

Of course the irony is that the term coloured was initially used as a polite alternative to other terms such as black, which was once thought offensive but is now deemed the correct term. Many people still used coloured as they still think is a polite term. It's little wonder people are confused by the pc police.  :unknown:

Offline The High Sparrow

Yes, but you still haven't explained why people of colour is acceptable yet coloured people isn't. I can accept the latter is offensive as it marks them out to be different to the norm (we are all coloured in some way), but people of colour is surely equally offensive? Just changing a noun with a pre modifier into a noun phrase doesn't lessen the offense as far as I can see. I would love someone to be able to explain this properly to me, but I doubt anyone can because it's totally illogical.

Of course the irony is that the term coloured was initially used as a polite alternative to other terms such as black, which was once thought offensive but is now deemed the correct term. Many people still used coloured as they still think is a polite term. It's little wonder people are confused by the pc police.  :unknown:

Language changes and evolves over time. Simples.

Offline winkywanky

I think that's about the size of it, but over all this time Whites have remained as 'White'.

Personally I am pretty aware of current racial nomenclature (I think) but I also find it a little confusing, and wonder why the changes?

I think one reason 'Coloured' is offensive is that it's an old term for Mixed Race in the old South Africa (very willing to be corrected if I'm wrong).

Then for many years Black was the correct term for Afro-Caribbean (and I still tend to use that) but now AFAIK this can cause offence, or even accusation of 'casual racism'.

I do quite often hear older White folk (70 and above) being referred to as casually racist when they get this stuff wrong, which IMO is grossly unfair because they simply don't know, they have no intention whatsoever to offend. And the changes over the years haven't helped.

Offline hornyguylondon

Yes, but you still haven't explained why people of colour is acceptable yet coloured people isn't. I can accept the latter is offensive as it marks them out to be different to the norm (we are all coloured in some way), but people of colour is surely equally offensive? Just changing a noun with a pre modifier into a noun phrase doesn't lessen the offense as far as I can see. I would love someone to be able to explain this properly to me, but I doubt anyone can because it's totally illogical.

Of course the irony is that the term coloured was initially used as a polite alternative to other terms such as black, which was once thought offensive but is now deemed the correct term. Many people still used coloured as they still think is a polite term. It's little wonder people are confused by the pc police.  :unknown:
In terms of what we call each other, I find this clip from Morgan Freeman says it all - Legend :)

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Offline mh

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Yes, but you still haven't explained why people of colour is acceptable yet coloured people isn't.

Well I tried. I did say I hate the term too! I'll try it even simpler. This is just how I believe those in a minority see the distinction:

Person of colour = person of whom one attribute (that puts them in a minority compared to the general population) is their skin colouring
Coloured person = person who is dark skinned, with no other attributes considered - in this phrasing "coloured person" implicitly defines them completely

Similarly "person with a disability" vs "disabled person", "person in poverty" vs "poor person"

Offline winkywanky

Perhaps more simply that it's just the fact that they are a person first, their colour is secondary (in an ideal world, etc)?

Offline winkywanky

Sorry mh, that's kind of what you said  :rolleyes:.