The delicious irony

[NIK]

After years of the pro EU liberals promoting the advantages of open borders and free movement and disparaging anyone who was concerned about this as thick racists the borders are going up all over Europe. 
I wonder if they will call the Coronavirus racist? 

[winkywanky]

Yep, Schengen is out the window, demanded by Macron and Merkel  .

[dubs]

Yes it’s almost as if EU countries had the power to control their borders all along. Who would have guessed it? 

[WARSZAWA16]

Once the coronavirus escalated in Italy all those matey EU countries couldn't close their borders quick enough. Unless I have missed something the EU have been quite silent on the coronavirus issue.

[Blackpool Rock]

Surely the real irony is that we are now going to be doing less trade etc with our close European neighbours and looking to do more trade with other far flung countries especially places like China and India where the majority of these sort of diseases seem to originate. 

Food for thought perhaps 

[winkywanky]

Once the coronavirus escalated in Italy all those matey EU countries couldn't close their borders quick enough. Unless I have missed something the EU have been quite silent on the coronavirus issue.

Interestingly, I think it's a case of each country formulating it's own specific response, so we're not really hearing from Brussels over Covid-19.

There do obviously need to be country-specific responses because each member state has its own demographic and needs, but it's very interesting how when the chips are down, countries revert to being...er...countries.

I think there's a lesson here that the EU needs to learn (as well as the UK deciding it had had enough, and leaving).

[mh]

Interestingly, I think it's a case of each country formulating it's own specific response, so we're not really hearing from Brussels over Covid-19.

There do obviously need to be country-specific responses because each member state has its own demographic and needs, but it's very interesting how when the chips are down, countries revert to being...er...countries.

I think there's a lesson here that the EU needs to learn (as well as the UK deciding it had had enough, and leaving).

It's almost as if these countries have separate governments, policies, capabilities and responses. Blame the EU for controlling everything, then blame them when they don't. Classic.

[winkywanky]

Funny that, innit? 

[freeze44]

Lots of irony around. From the dominant thinking that the state is wasteful to a rush to increase it.

Who was it that talked about the magic money tree?

[dubs]

Once the coronavirus escalated in Italy all those matey EU countries couldn't close their borders quick enough. Unless I have missed something the EU have been quite silent on the coronavirus issue.

The EU have set up a common procurement scheme to reduce costs and pool resources, and stated the UK can join but Boris is refusing.

External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

That's interesting.

Is he calculating that if we become part of the scheme, we'd have to share and therefore if we find supplies, there'd be less for us?

Or will it emerge that we'll have a large shortage which could have been avoided by being part of the club?

[Blackpool Rock]

That's interesting.

Is he calculating that if we become part of the scheme, we'd have to share and therefore if we find supplies, there'd be less for us?

Or will it emerge that we'll have a large shortage which could have been avoided by being part of the club?

Or perhaps he's got a great deal from America as they won't be needing any of this kit soon, Trump seems to be under the misguided opinion that it will be over by Easter 

Just been on the news however about how the US could soon become the epicentre

[badsin]

The EU were pissed about Italy, Spain, France and ourselves breaching all the state aid rules to support failing businesses. Coronavirus might just be the end of the whole EU
The French however are still allowing migrants to cross the channel in £15k boats. Dropped out of the media in recent days, don't know why.....

[Matrix]

As soon as the shit hits the fan, it's everyone for themselves. 

At least the French aren't the only ones stealing other countries medical supplies.

Thankfully, we're taking back control of our own affairs.

[winkywanky]

Or perhaps he's got a great deal from America as they won't be needing any of this kit soon, Trump seems to be under the misguided opinion that it will be over by Easter 

Just been on the news however about how the US could soon become the epicentre

Yep, I think bit by bit it's becoming very clear to even the reluctant, that America elected a complete twat as their president  .

[Matrix]

Yep, I think bit by bit it's becoming very clear to even the reluctant, that America elected a complete twat as their president  .

It'll be interesting to see if they even have an election over there, this year, and what the possible effect could be.

I certainly wouldn't stick money on old Joe!

[winkywanky]

He might declare a police state to get what he wants.

[Matrix]

He might declare a police state to get what he wants.

back to the future - part II, here we come.

[willie loman]

I read about the Spanish carers running away and abandoning dying pensioners in some care home. Sort of rings true to me.

[winkywanky]

Not that it makes it any less heinous, but they may not have been Spanish.

[willie loman]

Yep, I think bit by bit it's becoming very clear to even the reluctant, that America elected a complete twat as their president  .

Trump has made a valid point, supported by a fair few experts, and an awful lot of ordinary people, I reckon lockdown will be over more or less within a month, lets just wait and see.The majority of the world cannot even afford a lock down of a week. Only a truly rich country like Norway, can close shop for any length of time. People will die before there time, but its a level of mortality that was perfectly acceptable even in the recent past.

[winkywanky]

Trump has made a valid point, supported by a fair few experts, and an awful lot of ordinary people, I reckon lockdown will be over more or less within a month, lets just wait and see.The majority of the world cannot even afford a lock down of a week. Only a truly rich country like Norway, can close shop for any length of time. People will die before there time, but its a level of mortality that was perfectly acceptable even in the recent past.

To even suggest things may be good enough to end lockdown by Easter is not really what he ought to be saying, because it's a very remote possibility.

What do ordinary people know? (Although yes of course, I am one).

And as for the experts, are they the ones that he appointed, having sacked all the ones that didn't agree with him?

It all depends where you draw the line between absolute safety at all costs, and simply letting it run its course regardless of the consequences to human life.

It's obvious where Trump's priorities lie, and I think and hope it may come back to bite him in the arse.

it just occurred to me, Trump is a King Canute for modern times.

[willie loman]

To even suggest things may be good enough to end lockdown by Easter is not really what he ought to be saying, because it's a very remote possibility.

What do ordinary people know? (Although yes of course, I am one).

And as for the experts, are they the ones that he appointed, having sacked all the ones that didn't agree with him?

It all depends where you draw the line between absolute safety at all costs, and simply letting it run its course regardless of the consequences to human life.

It's obvious where Trump's priorities lie, and I think and hope it may come back to bite him in the arse.

it just occurred to me, Trump is a King Canute for modern times.

We are in fact letting it run its course, slowing it down , is all lock down is doing, we will in fact look back at this episode fairly soon with utter bafflement, viruses various are going to be part of our life,were always part of our life, and bringing the whole world to a halt is just not on. Mountains of dead , indeed.

[winkywanky]

We are in fact letting it run its course, slowing it down , is all lock down is doing, we will in fact look back at this episode fairly soon with utter bafflement, viruses various are going to be part of our life,were always part of our life, and bringing the whole world to a halt is just not on. Mountains of dead , indeed.

No, when I say let it run its course, I mean do nothing.

That is one extreme, the other is to save life at all costs and damn the economic consequences (although that in itself would cost lives of course).

It's a balancing act.

[winkywanky]

we will in fact look back at this episode fairly soon with utter bafflement, viruses various are going to be part of our life,were always part of our life, and bringing the whole world to a halt is just not on.

That is patently bollocks.

Have you not been paying attention?

We need to stop the NHS being overrun, and critically ill people being simply allowed to die for lack of resources.

The way things look right now, we may just avert that.

In Spain and Italy they are already being forced to make these decisions.

[winkywanky]

Or perhaps you think that's OK, and you don't mind if one of those unfortunate people is you? 

[willie loman]

Or perhaps you think that's OK, and you don't mind if one of those unfortunate people is you? 

Where have you been for the last 50 years? we let people die every day to save money, we are slowing the virus down to prevent collapse of the nhs as presently set up, to consider lock down as a response in the future will rightly be considered madness, I personally am quite prepared to accept quite a few deaths, and I suspect that in the coming weeks, more will put their heads above the parapet and agree.

[winkywanky]

Where have you been for the last 50 years? we let people die every day to save money, we are slowing the virus down to prevent collapse of the nhs as presently set up, to consider lock down as a response in the future will rightly be considered madness, I personally am quite prepared to accept quite a few deaths, and I suspect that in the coming weeks, more will put their heads above the parapet and agree.

What do you mean the NHS as presently set up? 

OK, we'll just ask the virus to hold on for a few weeks while we reorganise it, shall we? Duh!

Whatever the rights or wrongs of 'how the NHS is set up', it is what it is. If we don't take an economic hit a lot of people will die, and with people being turned away from hospitals, have you no inkling of the damage that could do to our society?

I am howver glad that you are one of the people volunteering to be turned away, that's really good of you  .

[winkywanky]

Where have you been for the last 50 years?

Living in this country.

And this is nothing like what has gone before. If you cannot see that simple fact it's not even worth talking to you, I'm sorry.

[scutty brown]

After years of the pro EU liberals promoting the advantages of open borders and free movement and disparaging anyone who was concerned about this as thick racists the borders are going up all over Europe. 
I wonder if they will call the Coronavirus racist? 

You conveniently forget that this disease originated in China, so any EU borders are totally irrelevant as to how it got here.
As for "borders going up", ALL countries are sealing borders - not just Europe.
You're just having another disguised rant about Johnnie Foreigner again aren't you?

[willie loman]

We are having a lock down as the nhs cannot cope with any real crisis, , we are in lock down to give us time, do you not understand any of this debate? Once we have stabilised the situation lock down will end, though the virus may not be eradicated. Going forward its is clear that the nhs must have some excess capacity for emergencies like this, the whole country cannot come to a halt because we haven't enough ventilators etc.

[scutty brown]

Where have you been for the last 50 years? we let people die every day to save money, we are slowing the virus down to prevent collapse of the nhs as presently set up, to consider lock down as a response in the future will rightly be considered madness, I personally am quite prepared to accept quite a few deaths, and I suspect that in the coming weeks, more will put their heads above the parapet and agree.

Does that mean you're prepared to put your head above the parapet and decline health care when it comes down to a choice of you or someone else to get a ventilator?

[winkywanky]

To be fair, I think there is a broad point to be made about the EU virtually getting rid of borders, and more so all the time, and then suddenly they become borders again when CV hits.

If anything, areas should be locked down not on a national basis, but on regions of high infection, to protect areas of low infection. But that would be unacceptable to the people of the countries involved, and that's understandable

It does bring into stark focus the debate about whether Europe should become a homogenous whole. Is this not what Brussels is aiming for ultimately?

By the way, I voted Remain, but I don't like the federalisation of Europe.

[willie loman]

Does that mean you're prepared to put your head above the parapet and decline health care when it comes down to a choice of you or someone else to get a ventilator?

The ventilator will be given to whoever has the best chance of survival etc, doctors make these decisions every day you know, long before the virus. I am saying that the price we are paying individually , and as a country is utterly disproportionate, it is a sledgehammer to crack an nut.

[Blackpool Rock]

We are having a lock down as the nhs cannot cope with any real crisis, , we are in lock down to give us time, do you not understand any of this debate? Once we have stabilised the situation lock down will end, though the virus may not be eradicated. Going forward its is clear that the nhs must have some excess capacity for emergencies like this, the whole country cannot come to a halt because we haven't enough ventilators etc.

Yeah there is an argument for building in some more capacity to deal with spikes providing they are prepared to allocate the money, people and politicians seem to have short memories so 5 years down the line it will be the usual "We need to cut costs".

Also given the scale of this if it's not slowed down the "spike" or ripple actually becomes a tsunami that would overwhelm any health system with a small or reasonable amount of excess capacity.

Another way of looking at this is like gearing up to deal with snow / winter weather.
In this country we have 2 inches and everything grinds to a halt whereas in Scandinavia they have 2 feet and carry on.
We could be prepared for 2 feet however the requirement is so infrequent that we can't justify spending the money "just in case", we are just as likely not to need any of the kit for 10 or 20 years in which case everyone then wonders why we have £Billions of unused equipment

[willie loman]

Yeah there is an argument for building in some more capacity to deal with spikes providing they are prepared to allocate the money, people and politicians seem to have short memories so 5 years down the line it will be the usual "We need to cut costs".

Also given the scale of this if it's not slowed down the "spike" or ripple actually becomes a tsunami that would overwhelm any health system with a small or reasonable amount of excess capacity.

Another way of looking at this is like gearing up to deal with snow / winter weather.
In this country we have 2 inches and everything grinds to a halt whereas in Scandinavia they have 2 feet and carry on.
We could be prepared for 2 feet however the requirement is so infrequent that we can't justify spending the money "just in case", we are just as likely not to need any of the kit for 10 or 20 years in which case everyone then wonders why we have £Billions of unused equipment

Finally someone who understands the debate, the absolute mayhem that has been caused in the last 10 days, means that most of us will accept an increase of tax etc so that the nhs doesn't  come to a complete halt when any real emergency happens, few of us live our lives without having a cash reserve, or a contingency plan, yet successive  govts have don't exactly that.

[freeze44]

Yeah there is an argument for building in some more capacity to deal with spikes providing they are prepared to allocate the money, people and politicians seem to have short memories so 5 years down the line it will be the usual "We need to cut costs".

Also given the scale of this if it's not slowed down the "spike" or ripple actually becomes a tsunami that would overwhelm any health system with a small or reasonable amount of excess capacity.

Another way of looking at this is like gearing up to deal with snow / winter weather.
In this country we have 2 inches and everything grinds to a halt whereas in Scandinavia they have 2 feet and carry on.
We could be prepared for 2 feet however the requirement is so infrequent that we can't justify spending the money "just in case", we are just as likely not to need any of the kit for 10 or 20 years in which case everyone then wonders why we have £Billions of unused equipment

Think we have got carried away with 'just in time' and the Toyota model of minimal stock etc.

That works in some areas but not in public service and 'slack' in the system is needed to cover peaks and troughs.

Agree that a pandemic like this will test any health system but by running things down for years to 'cut waste' and 'save money' is coming back to haunt us and why the situation in USA looks dire.

[winkywanky]

Worth noting here that both Spain and Italy are having to prioritise people for critical care beds now.

So that's people that may have been saved effectively being left to die.

There have also been pictures of coughing Covid patients lying in rows along hospital corridors.

I would say it's worth taking a big hit economically to try to allay that.

Spain has a healthcare system of similar quality to our own. Italy, probably better.

[willie loman]

Worth noting here that both Spain and Italy are having to prioritise people for critical care beds now.

So that's people that may have been saved effectively being left to die.

There have also been pictures of coughing Covid patients lying in rows along hospital corridors.

I would say it's worth taking a big hit economically to try to allay that.

Spain has a healthcare system of similar quality to our own. Italy, probably better.

Italy and spain have a better or similar health care to Britain? are you serious?

[winkywanky]

Italy and spain have a better or similar health care to Britain? are you serious?

I have personally been scraped up off the tarmac in Spain and stayed in a Spanish hospital, and a close relative has had experience of the Italian healthcare system.

I stand by what I said.

Anyway, what you said was this:

"we let people die every day to save money, we are slowing the virus down to prevent collapse of the nhs as presently set up, to consider lock down as a response in the future will rightly be considered madness, I personally am quite prepared to accept quite a few deaths, and I suspect that in the coming weeks, more will put their heads above the parapet and agree."


So I ask you again, are you personally prepared to accept your own death in order to adopt a response less economically damaging, or at the very least, the death of a close family member?

[willie loman]

I have personally been scraped up off the tarmac in Spain and stayed in a Spanish hospital, and a close relative has had experience of the Italian healthcare system.

I stand by what I said.

Anyway, what you said was this:

"we let people die every day to save money, we are slowing the virus down to prevent collapse of the nhs as presently set up, to consider lock down as a response in the future will rightly be considered madness, I personally am quite prepared to accept quite a few deaths, and I suspect that in the coming weeks, more will put their heads above the parapet and agree."


So I ask you again, are you personally prepared to accept your own death in order to adopt a response less economically damaging, or at the very least, the death of a close family member?

Of course I am, that's the way our nhs is set up, doctors decide whether we are worth treating or not, not whether we think we are worth treating. Anyone alive in this country in the last 50 years or so will know that people they  know have been turned down for treatments based on their age, and whether its a good use of public money. Every fucking week there is a case of someone crowdfunding or whatever to fly to god knows where for lifesaving treatment, not available here, or refused here. Medicine is based on available funds, what part of that do you not understand?

[Blackpool Rock]

Worth noting here that both Spain and Italy are having to prioritise people for critical care beds now.

So that's people that may have been saved effectively being left to die.

There have also been pictures of coughing Covid patients lying in rows along hospital corridors.

I would say it's worth taking a big hit economically to try to allay that.

Spain has a healthcare system of similar quality to our own. Italy, probably better.

I did have quite a reflective moment a few days ago about exactly this sort of thing, while it has already been mentioned about how the NHS workers already to an extent prioritise daily who gets treated / gets left to die (I have personal experience of seeing what was effectively euthanasia by hospital staff around 30 years ago)

In times of emergency the worst affected are often the old / sick / disabled and let's face it in some cases they take up scarce resource with no prospect of ever contributing anything, however i've also heard it said that a measure of your society is in exactly how well you treat these groups of people.
OK so it's not going to happen from C19 but imagine what society would be like if there was a much larger scale disaster, say an asteroid strike that effectively wiped out an entire continent and meant the sun was all but blocked out for the next few years leading to crop failure and mass worldwide starvation etc.
There would be some very hard choices to make, sorry no operations or medicines apart from a few key people, sorry but we can't artificially keep the sick and elderly alive, sorry but resources are non existent so those handicapped kids don't get fed properly or given medication so are effectively left to die.
You need to bury your parents, Ok yes the next mass grave burial of 500 bodies is tomorrow but you need to bring them yourself somehow etc etc

Forget the thin veneer of society as that all goes out the window and survival of the fittest kicks in, ah fuck it i'm off to cheer myself up by watching 28 days later     

[winkywanky]

Of course I am, that's the way our nhs is set up, doctors decide whether we are worth treating or not, not whether we think we are worth treating. Anyone alive in this country in the last 50 years or so will know that people they  know have been turned down for treatments based on their age, and whether its a good use of public money. Every fucking week there is a case of someone crowdfunding or whatever to fly to god knows where for lifesaving treatment, not available here, or refused here. Medicine is based on available funds, what part of that do you not understand?

OK, coldly, clinically (excuse the pun), if there were absolutely unlimited funds we could have the latest treatments for any disease, any cancer. But that's not possible of course, no country in the world has that, it'll always be that way. You have to have the best healthcare you can afford, you have to have the economy to sustain that. A balance has to be drawn up. Personally I think we strike a good balance in this country, by and large everyone has the same care available, independent of wealth, and the private sector adds a few bells & whistles and more speed. We also get pretty good value. Contrast that with the US where around 30% of the population don't have adequate healthcare. You seem to like what Trump says, perhaps you'd prefer a system like that, especially if you were one of those able to afford the health insurance? Fair enough.

The Covid situation is entirely different, to draw a medical analogy, this is an acute case, not a chronic case. It's a stark choice between allowing the NHS to be completely overrun by doing as little economic damage as possible, and taking a more life-saving view and taking that hit, and saving many, many lives. It's not even just lives, it's the fact that there will be pictures on our TVs every night of people lying in corridors dying (or perhaps being sent home to die there) because there weren't enough critical care beds for everyone. It is that stark a choice. I think I'm right in saying the vast majority of people don't want that. You would be in the minority, not just here but all over the Western World (who knows, trump's America may be different), also in the Far East.

And as a member of that minority, I just want to salute your bravery in accepting to be one of those people asphyxiating to death on their sofa at home while their blood boils, and who knows, although the NHS is strapped for cash, perhaps they'll give you a few hits of diamorphine to take the edge off? Or maybe one of your family could pop out and get you some jellies from a nice man on the street corner. Although of course it might be the other way round, it might be you buying the jellies for your mum or sibling?

So all this talk of 'it's normal that people are allowed to die' in the NHS and 'look, this is really just a bad flu, what's new' are complete tosh.

[peter purves]

After years of the pro EU liberals promoting the advantages of open borders and free movement and disparaging anyone who was concerned about this as thick racists the borders are going up all over Europe. 
I wonder if they will call the Coronavirus racist? 

I did not read all...any really  ... of  the comments (caught a bit of Scutty's) but the borders are also going up in Africa which are not allowing European travellers.

So the whole argument and reasoning begins from a false premise IMHO


AFRICAN NATIONS TURN THE TABLES, IMPOSING TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS AGAINST U.S., EUROPE, AND CHINA TO STAVE OFF CORONAVIRUS

External Link/Members Only

If anything the restrictions on the other nations is the irony and not what is suggested by the OP.

[Blackpool Rock]

I did not read all...any really  ... of  the comments (caught a bit of Scutty's) but the borders are also going up in Africa which are not allowing European travellers.

So the whole argument and reasoning begins from a false premise IMHO


AFRICAN NATIONS TURN THE TABLES, IMPOSING TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS AGAINST U.S., EUROPE, AND CHINA TO STAVE OFF CORONAVIRUS

External Link/Members Only

If anything the restrictions on the other nations is the irony and not what is suggested by the OP.

Last laugh and all that so Africa doesn't want anyone from the US or "Shithole" countries as Trump would say 

[PatMacGroin]

The EU have set up a common procurement scheme to reduce costs and pool resources, and stated the UK can join but Boris is refusing.

External Link/Members Only

He'll have all sorts of political reasons for wanting to avoid that. I'd imagine two of the biggest would be:

- Uncertainty over how the UK public would feel about that.

- A definite desire to avoid those pooled resources expanding into the "corona bonds" debt management instruments that several EU countries are reportedly pushing for.

There's enough going on without having to complicate things further with a new set of European negotiations to navigate. This crisis needs the flexibility to react quickly as things change. It's hard to imagine speed and flexibility as qualities the EU system is renowned for.

[willie loman]

OK, coldly, clinically (excuse the pun), if there were absolutely unlimited funds we could have the latest treatments for any disease, any cancer. But that's not possible of course, no country in the world has that, it'll always be that way. You have to have the best healthcare you can afford, you have to have the economy to sustain that. A balance has to be drawn up. Personally I think we strike a good balance in this country, by and large everyone has the same care available, independent of wealth, and the private sector adds a few bells & whistles and more speed. We also get pretty good value. Contrast that with the US where around 30% of the population don't have adequate healthcare. You seem to like what Trump says, perhaps you'd prefer a system like that, especially if you were one of those able to afford the health insurance? Fair enough.

The Covid situation is entirely different, to draw a medical analogy, this is an acute case, not a chronic case. It's a stark choice between allowing the NHS to be completely overrun by doing as little economic damage as possible, and taking a more life-saving view and taking that hit, and saving many, many lives. It's not even just lives, it's the fact that there will be pictures on our TVs every night of people lying in corridors dying (or perhaps being sent home to die there) because there weren't enough critical care beds for everyone. It is that stark a choice. I think I'm right in saying the vast majority of people don't want that. You would be in the minority, not just here but all over the Western World (who knows, trump's America may be different), also in the Far East.

And as a member of that minority, I just want to salute your bravery in accepting to be one of those people asphyxiating to death on their sofa at home while their blood boils, and who knows, although the NHS is strapped for cash, perhaps they'll give you a few hits of diamorphine to take the edge off? Or maybe one of your family could pop out and get you some jellies from a nice man on the street corner. Although of course it might be the other way round, it might be you buying the jellies for your mum or sibling?

So all this talk of 'it's normal that people are allowed to die' in the NHS and 'look, this is really just a bad flu, what's new' are complete tosh.

You are a ridiculous man, incapable of understanding the debate.

[winkywanky]

You are a ridiculous man, incapable of understanding the debate.

I understand it, don't be such a cock  .

You're vastly in the minority with your views (where you've described Covid-19 as just another virus, this has all happened before, it's 'normal' for the NHS because they've always 'allowed' people to die for economic reasons, and we're trying way too hard to save lives because the economic hit's too hard). That's both within this country, and in every country around the world where they have an epidemic.

You reckon you'll be proved right in the future, I doubt it very much.

Who knows, perhaps you might even change your mind when a close and elderly family member dies from it, but I wouldn't hold my breath for you admitting that.

[NIK]

You conveniently forget that this disease originated in China, so any EU borders are totally irrelevant as to how it got here.
As for "borders going up", ALL countries are sealing borders - not just Europe.
You're just having another disguised rant about Johnnie Foreigner again aren't you?

Yes.

If you notice far and away the majority of the frantic stockpilers are ethnics. The same people you see pushing and trampling each other when they open the doors to the post Christmas sales.
There was a Youtube clip of the greedy bastards in some London supermarket and you would never believe it was England. I don't care if you think it's 'racist' (in fact I couldn't give two fucks about anything you think) it's a statement of observational fact.

The struggle for survival must be ingrained in their DNA when their ancestors lived in the shitholes of Africa and Asia.

[Blackpool Rock]

Yes.

If you notice far and away the majority of the frantic stockpilers are ethnics. The same people you see pushing and trampling each other when they open the doors to the post Christmas sales.
There was a Youtube clip of the greedy bastards in some London supermarket and you would never believe it was England. I don't care if you think it's 'racist' (in fact I couldn't give two fucks about anything you think) it's a statement of observational fact.

The struggle for survival must be ingrained in their DNA when their ancestors lived in the shitholes of Africa and Asia.

Good to see while you were away that you didn't get rid of the old soap box and drum 



Hidden Image/Members Only