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Author Topic: Will France make paying for sex a crime?  (Read 3367 times)

Lz-129

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From the bbc this morning


Can a country eradicate prostitution by punishing not the people who sell their bodies for sex, but the people who buy them?

That is the ambitious premise behind new legislation to be debated soon in the French National Assembly.

The bill tabled by the ruling Socialist Party (PS) contains more than 20 articles. Most of them are aimed at disrupting foreign pimping networks, or helping sex workers who want to stop.

Another abolishes an existing law against touting.

But the bit which has got France talking is Article 16.

For the first time in France, this would make it an offence for a person to "have recourse to prostitution", in other words to pay for sex.

Those found guilty would be liable for fines of 1,500 euros (£1,250; $2006) - double that if it was a repeat offence.

In addition, the man who paid for sex would be made to undergo an "awareness" course on prostitution, similar to ones on the dangers of drink-driving given to traffic offenders.

The bill has a good chance of passing into law.

Provocative manifesto
A similar resolution was voted through the assembly at the end of 2011, with the support of both left and right. It only failed to proceed because of lack of parliamentary time.

But shifting the criminal burden away from prostitutes, and onto those who use them, is a major ethical and social change. And ahead of the parliamentary debate - scheduled for 27 November - the national debate is starting to catch fire.

The most eye-catching opposition has come from an unexpected quarter.

Last week a group of men signed a petition entitled "Touche pas a ma Pute!" (Hands off my Tart!), which was published in the magazine Causeur (Chatterer).

Styling themselves the "343 Salauds" (Dirty Swine), the men - led by writer Frederic Beigbeder - condemned MPs for intruding into the private sphere and trying to "decree norms for desire and pleasure".

"We believe that everyone has the right to freely sell their charms - and even to enjoy it," they said.

"We love freedom, literature and intimacy. When the state starts taking charge of our private parts, all three are in danger .… In opposition to the sexually correct, we intend to live as adults."

The petition was deliberately provocative, and it hit the mark. The reaction was outraged and instantaneous.

Some were particularly offended over the signatories drawing a parallel with two of the great causes of the progressive left: abortion and anti-racism.

The "343 Salauds" was a reference to the 343 Salopes (Dirty Cows) - campaigning women who back in 1971 signed a manifesto declaring that they had had an abortion.

And "Touche pas a ma Pute!" is a rip-off of the 1980s slogan "Touche pas a mon Pote!" (Hands off my Buddy!), which helped mobilise opinion against the far-right Front National.

According to the Socialist Party, the Salauds' petition was "scandalous and reactionary … lifting the lid on the real aim of those who defend prostitution - which is the preservation of … male domination and female submission."

For the organisation Osez le Feminisme (Dare to be Feminist), Anne-Cecile Mailfert said it was the work of "343 dominant males who want to protect their position and continue to use money for access to women's bodies".

The 343 men stated that paid sex should only be with freely consenting partners, and it condemned "violence, exploitation and human trafficking". But for opponents this was at best naive, at worst self-serving.

"How can you claim the right to liberty in an activity which exemplifies its very opposite?" said Anne Zelensky, one of the original 343 Salopes. "When it comes to prostitution, no-one is free: not the prostitute and not the client."


Dispute about freedom
The row has thrown into relief one of the intellectual faultlines in modern-day France, where there is a rumbling "fronde" or insurrection against the "politically correct".

Opponents see the signatories as right-wing reactionaries, malevolently usurping the cry of Liberty in order to defend their macho privileges.

But for the Salauds, the fight is against a nannyish and intolerant ruling class that has turned the feminist slogans of 40 years ago into a moralistic crusade.

"Today the left - which is supposed to be the cutting edge of progressivism - is dominated by an irrepressible urge to control and prohibit," wrote Causeur's editor Elisabeth Levy.

In truth debate on the prostitution law will hinge on other factors.

Opposition to the bill also comes from many people who work with prostitutes. They say that criminalising clients will drive the business further underground, and make prostitutes even more vulnerable to exploitation from the mainly foreign gangs that control them.

It is estimated that there are around 20,000 prostitutes in France, and 90% of them are of foreign origin.

Others argue that the law may well cut "on-the-street" trade, but will be ineffectual against internet-based prostitution which is poised to sweep up the demand.

Many "independent" prostitutes also oppose the law, saying it will threaten relationships they have built up with their clients.

Meanwhile both sides in the debate cite findings from the few other countries, like Sweden, that have already criminalised paying for sex.

But in a way the big question is the one asked by Causeur and the 343 Salauds.

Is eradicating prostitution - the self-declared goal of the government - really a serious proposition?

Or put another way, which is stronger: the human sex drive, or the law?

BBC © 2013
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:23:16 am by Lz-129 »

potato

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Strange in a country where every middle class and above male is almost expected to have a mistress...

Offline JamesKW

I think you know the answer is that you can never stop prostitution, a bit like when America tried to stop alcohol in the prohibition years.Also it will be a very easy crime to prosecute and the police will concentrate their efforts there at first and everyone will get pissed off that they are not dealing with more serious crimes.

yourgent

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Lived in the commonwealth of Virginia for 5 years were similar laws exist - doesn't make a bit of difference. girls still advertise on Backpage, Escort sites still run profiles and all that happens is that the police have more crap to deal with.

Offline Jimmyredcab

I think you know the answer is that you can never stop prostitution, a bit like when America tried to stop alcohol in the prohibition years.

Prostitution is illegal in most of America but it still goes on -------------------- same applies to hard drugs.   

Offline wristjob

Strange in a country where every middle class and above male is almost expected to have a mistress...

France is the last country you would expect this to happen in. if it can happen there it can happen 10x as easy here. Scary times.

willbred

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I spend quite a bit of time in France and have immense respsct for the culture, not least of all the love of good food, good wine and good or bad) women. A big part of me says "no way", then I thought that the smoking ban would be ignored universally, which I was wrong on.

Curious6705

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France is the last country you would expect this to happen in. if it can happen there it can happen 10x as easy here. Scary times.

Why is France the last country you would expect this to happen in?

Offline Ali Katt

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Why is France the last country you would expect this to happen in?
Because prostitution is embedded in their history, I suppose you could say the same about the UK or America though. The French love ze sex.

Curious6705

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Because prostitution is embedded in their history, I suppose you could say the same about the UK or America though. The French love ze sex.

But in our lifetime their politics have been amongst the most reactionary in Europe. IMO you might as well say the Germans would be the first "to have rules against it". I think it ignores modern European history post WW2. It seems to me to be opinion based upon outmoded national stereotypes.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 01:13:53 pm by Curious6705 »

Offline Ali Katt

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But in our lifetime their politics have been amongst the most reactionary in Europe. IMO you might as well say the Germans would be the first "to have rules against it". I think it ignores modern European history post WW2. It seems to me to be opinion based upon outmoded national stereotypes.
I gave a purposely silly reply. In all seriousness there does seem to be some opposition to prostitution in most countries, Ireland being one that has proposed bills in place. Not sure why it seems to have become hot topic over the last few year, maybe a deflection from the corruption going on behind closed doors.

Curious6705

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I gave a purposely silly reply. In all seriousness there does seem to be some opposition to prostitution in most countries, Ireland being one that has proposed bills in place. Not sure why it seems to have become hot topic over the last few year, maybe a deflection from the corruption going on behind closed doors.

Ah - that went over my head ... I do think there is something in the following from the article quoted in Lz's post

Quote from: BBC Website
But for the Salauds, the fight is against a nannyish and intolerant ruling class that has turned the feminist slogans of 40 years ago into a moralistic crusade.

"Today the left - which is supposed to be the cutting edge of progressivism - is dominated by an irrepressible urge to control and prohibit," wrote Causeur's editor Elisabeth Levy.

Baby boomer radical feminists, like our very own Horrible Harman, trying to fulfil their extreme political agenda before they retire.

Hyborean

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I still don't understand what gets these anti-prostitution campaigners so hot under the collar!

Except for the very small amount of trafficking going on, I do not see the harm to society.

Far more harm comes from alcohol, drugs and smoking and especially corrupt politics. Most of the trafficking has nothing to do with the sex trade but with other more evil things like paedophiles and slave labour!

dilettante

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Because prostitution is embedded in their history, I suppose you could say the same about the UK or America though. The French love ze sex.

Yes, in Elizabethan times syphilis was known as "the French disease"

Offline wristjob

But in our lifetime their politics have been amongst the most reactionary in Europe. IMO you might as well say the Germans would be the first "to have rules against it". I think it ignores modern European history post WW2. It seems to me to be opinion based upon outmoded national stereotypes.

It's their culture, and that doesn't disappear over 20 years. At least you won't be getting this kind of nonsense in Italy.




I still don't understand what gets these anti-prostitution campaigners so hot under the collar!

Except for the very small amount of trafficking going on, I do not see the harm to society.

Far more harm comes from alcohol, drugs and smoking and especially corrupt politics. Most of the trafficking has nothing to do with the sex trade but with other more evil things like paedophiles and slave labour!

Spot on. I guess it's the same problem as with most other things - people making the policy are so out of touch with the reality of the situation. To HH and others what happens is oppressed women are forced on the game by evil scumbag pimps.... The reality is that's very much the minority of what happens and mostly its the girls free will. I guess is seen as some sacred holy thing, and that may well have been the case 60 years ago but it's nothing like the world we live in now.


Curious6705

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It's their culture, and that doesn't disappear over 20 years. At least you won't be getting this kind of nonsense in Italy.

With respect it sounds to me like you're plucking second rate opinions out of the air. Do you have extensive first hand experience of these countries?

Offline wristjob

With respect it sounds to me like you're plucking second rate opinions out of the air. Do you have extensive first hand experience of these countries?


A bit of Italy. 5 years ago the Prime Minister was nobbing a 17yo girl.... How cool would it have been for Gordon Brown to have done similar - he may have even smiled.

Curious6705

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A bit of Italy. 5 years ago the Prime Minister was nobbing a 17yo girl.... How cool would it have been for Gordon Brown to have done similar - he may have even smiled.

So no first hand experience of France? However, you appear convinced you have expert knowledge / certainty regarding their culture. I'll bear that in mind if I read any more of your posts.

Offline wristjob

So no first hand experience of France? However, you appear convinced you have expert knowledge / certainty regarding their culture. I'll bear that in mind if I read any more of your posts.

Defensive reply. Just cause I haven't lived in France doesn't mean I have no knowledge of their culture. Care to share your expert knowledge?

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The history of prostitution in France is similar to that in other European countries, with alternating periods of tolerance and repression (Tolérance générale, répression occasionnelle), but is marked by the length of time during which the maisons (brothels) were tolerated. Prostitutes were not marginalized, but integrated into society where they had a role to play.


Curious6705

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Defensive reply. Just cause I haven't lived in France doesn't mean I have no knowledge of their culture. Care to share your expert knowledge?

I'm not claiming expertise. No offence, but you appear to me to be someone who may claim to be an expert when you're not. That being said, there's little point in prolonging this discussion. Have a nice life.  :hi:

jcdmj12

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I've only just found out about this, because the media kept it very quiet, but the French Senate quietly strangled this in July 2014.      :yahoo:

It may come back, but looking less likely. Now we just need to see Labour not win a majority in 2015 (the Greens will never support a ban), and we should be good.

Offline smiths

I've only just found out about this, because the media kept it very quiet, but the French Senate quietly strangled this in July 2014.      :yahoo:

It may come back, but looking less likely. Now we just need to see Labour not win a majority in 2015 (the Greens will never support a ban), and we should be good.

I agree about Labour but the Greens only have 1 MP and if they get another they would have done well in my view so their say on the matter is likely to be limited to say the least.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 09:07:35 pm by smiths »

Offline Marmalade

I've only just found out about this, because the media kept it very quiet, but the French Senate quietly strangled this in July 2014.      :yahoo:
Indeed: (quick recap)
Quote
In October and November 2013, French lawmakers began debating a proposal to penalise clients of prostitution. On December 4, the National Assembly passed a bill fining clients of prostitutes by 268 votes to 138, with 79 abstaining, which would impose fines of at least €1,500 on clients caught paying for sexual relations. Within the National Assembly, the majority of those against it were MPs from the Socialist Party, which dominates this house. The law was passed in the National Assembly on December 4, 2013). This bill caused considerable controversy in France between politicians, intellectuals and feminists who are in favor of legalizing prostitution and those who are for a ban. The bill was opposed by many sex workers and was rejected by the French Senate in July 2014.

We could learn many things from France still. The French Revolution to my mind was still the mother of all revolutions for La Liberté. The French people still have the idea in their veins. When some parliamentary upstart tries to reduce liberty, the people go to the streets, and what's more, the government usually has a quiet little shit in its pants and then listens.

Even Sarkozy recognised that prostitutes are part of France's national cultural heritage. And so they are. Thank you Toulouse-Lautrec, Degas and Picasso, and the women they brought to us in all their splendour. If Harriet Harman's cunt stinks let her "away to a nunnery." Not sit in judgement.

Offline Marmalade

1989 Storming of the Bastille. A mob of more than a thousand people stormed the symbol of tyranny, and many lost their lives, but the Bastille surrendered and became a symbol of victory.
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1968 Revolutionary riots of students and workers and included philosophers, professors and peasants. It grew to 10 million protestors. The impact against de Gaulle's cruel government was never forgotten.
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1986 Students rioted for three weeks to save their university system forcing Chiriac to back down.

1994 And 200,000 students protested for three weeks against a bill that would allow young people to be paid less than the minimum wage. Prime Minister Balladur backed down.

2005 Students and teachers again protested against education "reform". And won.

They have been many more. The French have balls (and Charlie Hebdo!). Whereas the English (and often a lot of the Scots too) have "tolerance" (of government policies) and the swallowing of le bollocks. "Democracy" in the UK is a marketing slogan.



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Offline Ali Katt

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1989 Storming of the Bastille. A mob of more than a thousand people stormed the symbol of tyranny, and many lost their lives, but the Bastille surrendered and became a symbol of victory.
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I can't remember it in my lifetime. 1789. As an extra bit of trivia wasn't the Marquis de Sade held there?

Aspen

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It's their culture, and that doesn't disappear over 20 years. At least you won't be getting this kind of nonsense in Italy.

At least not while Berlusconi's got anything to do with it.

Aspen

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How cool would it have been for Gordon Brown to have done similar - he may have even smiled.

Didn't do Paddy Ashdown any harm when he got caught with his trousers down.

Offline random

Didn't do Paddy Ashdown any harm when he got caught with his trousers down.

And was forever after know as Paddy Pantsdown.