Kerb crawling - question re police action

[Tgingerone]

I have a question. Picked up a street girl the other night, went to a local secluded area with her before doing anything or any cash transaction a police car turns up. Not a standard white and fluorescent one just a standard car with a police badge on side.2 coppers, 1 Copper gets me to wind window down, recognises girl, tells her there have been complaints of needles being left in the area and we should move on.he drives around corner and pulls up. Never speaks to me. Never asks my name or anything just leaves us and parks up. We drive off. Question is this, why didn't he ask my name and details and why given that the girl is a known prostitute didn't he do me for having her in the car?

[Sinz]

Not a review - moved to Discussion Regional Punting

[scutty brown]

probably because he's sympathetic to the girl, and can't be bothered with the paperwork. Car description makes it sound like he's probably a part-time "Special Policeman" and so won't be chasing arrests to go up the career path.
And remember he's got your probable ID from the car reg.

If you hadn't moved on then he would probably have taken action, and if you're seen there again they'll pick you up.
If you had been questioned, and they'd found drugs on her then you would have potentially been in deep shit

[Tgingerone]

I get the probable ID but just thought it would have taken no time to ask my details to follow it up and make sure. The reg doesnt mean it had to be my car so to make sure all he had to do was question me. Just seemed a bit weird. The girl just said unless they caught you in the act or money changing hands theyd do nothing anyway. I'll not lie I was proper sweating it thinking I was gonna be in real shit but like I say he didn't even speak to me.

[scutty brown]

the girls wrong: just having her in the car is enough to get you prosecuted.
For whatever reason the police let  you off. It may well have been that they were waiting for someone else to appear: drug dealer perhaps?

[Tgingerone]

So if they were going to prosecute me or take it further they woyld have taken both of our details on the spot? Without that they would have a harder time proving it was actually me behind the wheel. Basically I'm now over thinking things and wondering if this will still come back and bite me on the area. It just seems so odd that they weren't bothered about doing us both for an offence.

[Silverado]

..........why given that the girl is a known prostitute didn't he do me for having her in the car?

Because it's not a criminal offence to be in a car with a prostitute.

s.51A SOA 2003 provides that it "is an offence for a person in a street or public place to solicit another (B) for the purpose of obtaining B's sexual services as a prostitute."

Without evidence of soliciting the magistrates would throw the case out.

[crazylicker]

All this asumes that they were actually 'cops'

[Tgingerone]

As in they could have been fake police?

[scutty brown]

Because it's not a criminal offence to be in a car with a prostitute.

s.51A SOA 2003 provides that it "is an offence for a person in a street or public place to solicit another (B) for the purpose of obtaining B's sexual services as a prostitute."

Without evidence of soliciting the magistrates would throw the case out.

External Link/Members Only
"Section 19 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009 introduces section 51A into the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and creates a new offence for a person in a street or public place to solicit another for the purpose of obtaining a sexual service as a prostitute. The reference to a person in a street or public place includes a person in a motor vehicle in a street or public place.

This replaces the offences of kerb crawling and persistent soliciting under sections 1 and 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 1985 with effect from 1 April 2010.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale."

If you're caught with a known sex worker in your car, that is enough to be deemed guilty of soliciting. No need for money to have changed hands.

[munterhunter]

Put it down to experience and luck. They could have done you unlikely to have arrested you unless you refused to give your details or refused to co-operate. You would hsve recieved a court summond by post.
Taking action against you requires them to fill out a couple of hours paperwork which they probably couldn't be bothered to do.
There are fewer police on the streets these days so arresting you means they are off the streets while they process and interview you and the girl which isn't going to please their Inspector. Or they have to spend 2 hours extra at the end of their shift filling in forms to get you summonsed.

[HudzLad]

External Link/Members Only
"Section 19 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009 introduces section 51A into the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and creates a new offence for a person in a street or public place to solicit another for the purpose of obtaining a sexual service as a prostitute. The reference to a person in a street or public place includes a person in a motor vehicle in a street or public place.

This replaces the offences of kerb crawling and persistent soliciting under sections 1 and 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 1985 with effect from 1 April 2010.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale."

If you're caught with a known sex worker in your car, that is enough to be deemed guilty of soliciting. No need for money to have changed hands.

I'm being pedantic here, but couldn't you argue that you're just giving them a lift?

[Silverado]

If you're caught with a known sex worker in your car, that is enough to be deemed guilty of soliciting. No need for money to have changed hands.

I've been a criminal law solicitor for more than 30 years with more than a professional interest in the laws of E & W relating to prostitution and that's definitely not true.

The police will have their own standards of evidence before it will get passed the custody officer. The offence is soliciting in a street or public place and the police need evidence of soliciting. Being in a car with a prostitute does not mean that soliciting has taken place. The punter could have picked her up in a brothel. The prostitute may be a friend or relative.

If I'm sitting in my car and a prostitute taps on the window and offers me a blow job for £20 and I take £20 out of my wallet and give it to her in return for a blow job then I haven't solicited her. She's the one whose solicited, not me.

[Tgingerone]

So Silverado. So by the point that they haven't even asked my name I have nothing to worry about? She did tap my window. She did walk from a long way to get to me parked up minding my own business was on my phone to be fair. I'm not going to get a surprise in a few weeks time based solely on my reg number?

[munterhunter]

I've been a criminal law solicitor for more than 30 years with more than a professional interest in the laws of E & W relating to prostitution and that's definitely not true.

The police will have their own standards of evidence before it will get passed the custody officer. The offence is soliciting in a street or public place and the police need evidence of soliciting. Being in a car with a prostitute does not mean that soliciting has taken place. The punter could have picked her up in a brothel. The prostitute may be a friend or relative.

If I'm sitting in my car and a prostitute taps on the window and offers me a blow job for £20 and I take £20 out of my wallet and give it to her in return for a blow job then I haven't solicited her. She's the one whose solicited, not me.

A few years ago a guy I know in Bradford received a letter in the post from West Yorkshire Police asking him to contact them. He went to the police station spoke with a PC who said "we want to speak to you about why your car was seen in the red light district on cctv"
He explained "I work as a cleaner for the council. I clean schools and offices. To get from home to one school I drive along the road you have me on cctv. I clean there twice a week. He heard no more from them. In an episode of traffic cops also filmed in Bradford police approached a stationary car in a back lane. There was a man and known prostitute in the car just sitting. There didn't seem to be a reason for the police to speak to the occupants.
They requested id from both were unhappy with information supplied by the male and used a fingerprint scanner on him.
He was a disqualified driver in his brother's car hiving his brother's details.
At the end of the program they do a voice over explaining what happened to the people stopped.
In this guys case he was given a further 12 month ban 6 points for no insurance fined £ 250 for perverting the course of justice and £100 for what they described as 'kerb crawling'
I think it's initially down to the officer who stops you then the custody sgt and finally the CPS. From what you say this guy should not have been charged with either soliciting or kerb crawling as he was sitting in the car with the woman

[kingsvans]

If it was Holbeck could it be that it's in the managed area, hence no action ?

[Tgingerone]

It was not in holbeck.

[Tgingerone]

Basically what I am asking now is, as there were no details taken from either of us does that mean that nothing else is going to happen? To prove anything would they not need to ask both of us what happened and should not have let us continue on our way? I'm just worried that this is not the end of it.

[scutty brown]

You may get a letter addressed to the vehicles registered keeper......its done in the hope that the wife opens and reads it and gives the bloke hell.
Outside of that there's nothing much more they can do. Very hard to see how any prosecution could be started as there's no evidence for your ID

[Tgingerone]

That does seem more likely. If they were looking to do anything more than that then surely they would have asked for details. It opens up the defence of it wasn't me driving by not asking and also by not taking the girls details it would be hard to prove it was a street walker in the car anyway. And that's before even getting down to the details of how she ends up in the car anyway which could be another grey area as they have not took her details or asked her any questions either.

[scutty brown]

The girl was recognised, and as such all it would need is a police statement that she was there and that she was a known street worker, and that would probably be enough to get a conviction, except they failed to ID you so no prosecution there.


If they wanted to be bastards there are other ways of getting at you.......if the car was used in such a way as to "cause annoyance to others" off road (e.g. in parkland / car park / private road or track) they have the option to confiscate it without reference to a court, though I don't think they've yet carried that through on anyone. Shagging on the back seat could be deemed to be "causing annoyance to others"

[Tgingerone]

Nothing took place anyway so  no nuisance from shagging lol.
My common sense head says they didn't ID you or anything so stop worrying. My paranoid head says something could still happen. Though if they had any intention of taking it further they should have ID'd me.

[munterhunter]

Basically what I am asking now is, as there were no details taken from either of us does that mean that nothing else is going to happen? To prove anything would they not need to ask both of us what happened and should not have let us continue on our way? I'm just worried that this is not the end of it.

Highly unlikely. If they were going to take any action the best time to do it was when they were on scene.
I'm guessing that they thiught 'if we just go over and have a word to let them know we know what's going on' it will probably put the fear of god into the punter and make him think twice and apparently it has.
It's possible that you might get a registered keeper letter but why would they do that when they have already spoken to you?

[Tgingerone]

That's the weird thing. They hardly acknowledged me just spoke to her about complaints about needles in the area. She said it wasn't us and he said thats fine but was letting us know not to use the area. Then off they went around the corner and parked up. It seems so much easier for them to do something if they had just asked my name and details.
Also by letting us both go off together would they not be allowing the potential for an offence to take place? Which again is a bit odd.

[Tgingerone]

Any more advice Silverado?

[Silverado]

Any more advice Silverado?

The best advice that anyone give you is don't go with street girls. It's just not worth it.

I doubt very much that anything further will happen, for all the reasons mentioned in the previous posts.

[Tgingerone]

I won't be going anywhere near street girls ever again. But in your professional opinion I should be able to sleep a little easier?

[scutty brown]

Who changed the title of this thread to "Kerb Crawling - Holbeck"?

OP has made it clear this did NOT take place in Holbeck

[Tgingerone]

Not me and I don't know how to change it either.

[scutty brown]

Not me and I don't know how to change it either.

I've changed it to something more accurate


edit
Looks like it was Sinz, on a tidying spree - must have misread the thread

[Sinz]

I've changed it to something more accurate

edit
Looks like it was Sinz, on a tidying spree - must have misread the thread

Cheers mate, my bad

[Tgingerone]

Out of interest, could they send out a letter and invited to one of these "voluntary interviews" I have read about.

[scutty brown]

Out of interest, could they send out a letter and invited to one of these "voluntary interviews" I have read about.

How? They don't know who was driving the car.

[Tgingerone]

Thought they could send one to the registered keeper?

[scutty brown]

Thought they could send one to the registered keeper?

but they've no evidence as to who was driving.
They could send a letter saying "your car was seen in a known prostitution area, with a known prossie as passenger" but thats as far as it could go. They can't invite you to interview because they don't know you were driving

[Tgingerone]

Silverado. Once last question. Would the fact that these 2 in the police car were probably Pcso's have any bearing to why I wasn't arrested on the suspicion of soliciting another or why they didn't take any details? I have spoken to someone who agreed like you say that any further action is highly improbable however they did say not impossible. The only way to prove would be cctv or description of me then linked to my car reg. Although there is still the fact that nothing was witnessed, no money transfer, no record of an agreement of services, nothing happening in the car when they pulled up.

[Tgingerone]

Could they not invite me as the cars known keeper to answer questions?

[Tgingerone]

Could they not invite me as the cars known keeper to answer questions?

Let me rephrase that. As the registered keeper do they need a more positive ID than that to invite me in?

[scutty brown]

Let me rephrase that. As the registered keeper do they need a more positive ID than that to invite me in?

How can you  answer questions when they don't knnoow  you were theer?. They've missed the chance forget  it