Is this a game changer for you? Surveillance

[Dime.]

Of UK citizens, Now they can look at every thing you have done.......

Is this a game changer for you and they things you say and use online, like on here? They will now know all your secrets......

External Link/Members Only

Is this a game changer for you and punting?

[claretandblue]

Makes zero difference to me punting wise,that's not to say I agree with the act though

[Marmalade]

The erosion of privacy also equals the erosion of intimacy.

Another ten years if there are hookers around, they may need to have centralised security cameras to make sure they don't do anything 'perverted.'

[smiths]

Of UK citizens, Now they can look at every thing you have done.......

Is this a game changer for you and they things you say and use online, like on here? They will now know all your secrets......

External Link/Members Only

Is this a game changer for you and punting?

As Snowden showed this has already been going on for years, what this does is make it legit perhaps. No its not a game changer for me, I am not doing anything illegal when punting at present. If that changed I might form a different view.

[Blackpool Rock]

In a word No.
Personally i'm not too bothered about being watched as i'm not a criminal or terrorist and I don't see why the authorities would want to take any notice in me or 99.99% of the population as they have bigger fish to fry and not enough resource to follow everybody anyway 

[Silver Birch]

Agree with above, they are not interested in me, but I might stop using this emoji just in case 

If the law changed to make paying for sex illegal, then I might rethink about internet trail I leave.

[Scotpunter]

If the worlds security services have enough time on their hands to worry about me seeing WG's we have at last managed world peace!

[Troydor69]

I agree with the last few posts. I am not breaking any laws and have nothing to hide from anyone in authority. Admittedly there are a lot of things I would rather keep to myself and not share with colleagues or friends, but that's a separate issue.

[MrMatrix]

I agree with the last few posts. I am not breaking any laws and have nothing to hide from anyone in authority. Admittedly there are a lot of things I would rather keep to myself and not share with colleagues or friends, but that's a separate issue.

+1. The volume of information is beyond imagination. Only if you break the law are you likely to attract attention and I don't think we fall into that category. However I still wish to retain my privacy.

[Romney]

It's definitely a bit distressing to think about what they will save and have unlimited access to.

But, if I understand the law correctly, they can only see that you visited the UKP main site, not what specific pages or threads you looked at or what you typed while visiting the site.   I suppose that's a little reassuring, but they will know that you visited the site, and I suppose they may know how often you visited, etc....

[ClarkeOfTheCourse]

No, I use a VPN, and have done since this was raised as a bill

[Romney]

No, I use a VPN, and have done since this was raised as a bill

Is that allowed?  I assumed that admin wouldn't allow members to logon via a VPN as it might allow banned members to hide who they were, or have  multiple accounts, etc?

If it is allowed, that would be something I would be interested in using myself....

[Chuckman]

VPNs are currently allowed, just don't choose one that's based in a fourteen eyes country.

[maxxblue]

Has anyone noticed that some websites don't load when using a VPN?

When I use a VPN, some websites such as the BBC News won't load.

Does anyone know a way around this?

[Marmalade]

Has anyone noticed that some websites don't load when using a VPN?

When I use a VPN, some websites such as the BBC News won't load.

Does anyone know a way around this?

Sometimes there won't be a way round that. Only a few VPNs have 'stealth' mode (no free ones) otherwise it's obvious you are using VPN.

[Marmalade]

+1. The volume of information is beyond imagination. Only if you break the law are you likely to attract attention and I don't think we fall into that category. However I still wish to retain my privacy.

They're merely putting into law what they've been doing for years.

It's not so much about not wanting the authorities to know everything you do. People get worried that some big website has been hacked containing data that should be private, but big sites are hacked every day. You only need to look on a cyber security website to see the frequency and scale. Now add to that that the new law has a whole big list of organisations that can have access to your data. We have to assume that everyone that has access is tech savvy and completely honest.

If the U.S. Democratic Party and a Presidential candidate couldn't keep their/her business quiet, what chance do you have, honestly?? What will be will be, but these arguments about nowt to hide or they're not interested in me are frankly utter rubbish. There is freely available software to automatically sort through tens of thousands of bits of data from as many people in the list and the software will look for specified keywords, from passwords, emails, escorts whatever. Anything juicy is then even righteously sent to Wikileaks or far more commonly, whichever tabloid pays.

You've already seen the main reason governments want it is financial, from the bugging of Merkel and business accounts that were bugged. The main reason the Daily Mail or your local tabloid would like it will be less intelligent. 

[maxxblue]

Sometimes there won't be a way round that. Only a few VPNs have 'stealth' mode (no free ones) otherwise it's obvious you are using VPN.

Thanks Marmalade - you've resolved the issue. 

[Marmalade]

I'm still learning. But I think VPNs may gradually become standard for business and personal users.

[lostandfound]

It doesn't change the game for me at the moment.

It does concern me that govt agencies apart from the security services may be able to use these powers. Also once the data is collected it may be there for future analysis. And it probably won't require manpower to analyse, I think it will be done by computer software. So little if any call upon scarce resources. A time bomb in my opinion.

I think of more immediate concern is the anti-porn legislation which Claire Perry blackmailed the govt into. That could make large parts of the adult internet go dark for many of us, and it could happen soon.

[5th Musketeer]

It's definitely a bit distressing to think about what they will save and have unlimited access to.

I have always thought that the more a government gathers data, then the more unmanageable that data becomes.  It's a little like TMI - if they really gathered "everything" they'd never be able to identify and prioritize what is most important.  I would have thought that spying on the sexual habits of normal every day Joe Q. Public was a long way down the list after terrorism and organised crime.

[Marmalade]

There's little we can do about unless you have some amazing ideas that have been missed. Some estimates already put the darknet as bigger than the regular net. But who wants to go there?? From news reports, its mostly about drugs and illegal stuff, not the sort of world one wants to wander in any more that some filthy crime ridden streets of the real world.
External Link/Members Only
That's where cybercrime should really be aimed though. But a VPN and encryption is just like locking the front door so people don't wander in. You might want to share some stuff with a gf that isn't for all the automated cloud services to 'save' for you, or look at Greenpeace or UKIP without going on a watchlist (to name just two groups highly monitored 'in the public interest'). Stay legal stay safe.

[Marmalade]

I have always thought that the more a government gathers data, then the more unmanageable that data becomes.  It's a little like TMI - if they really gathered "everything" they'd never be able to identify and prioritize what is most important.  I would have thought that spying on the sexual habits of normal every day Joe Q. Public was a long way down the list after terrorism and organised crime.

You're probably right. But years ago who would have thought police would use something called the Internet to harass private prossies by finding where they live? They are not doing anything illegal, and neither is Mr Plod when he casually tells neighbours in a concerned voice for their children that there is a prossies next door. She may not have drugs or be coerced but it may be 'part of an operation to look into illegal drugs and trafficking.'

Or "police were called after neighbours heard an altercation between a a respected figure of the community and his wife." It turned out the man had been involved in paying prostitutes for perverted acts. Condoms were found on the premises even though Mrs Fatcow said her hubby never used condoms."

Or

"Police raided a shopkeeper after reports from a customer that he sold illegal porn. The search produced no evidence of anything ilegal although Mr Shopshitkeeper had a history of engaging in unnatural sexual acts with prostitutes, involving oral sex and 'golden showers'. No charges have been made."

[Marmalade]

There's a book called Who's Watching You by John Gibb about state surveillance that's quite good. (Same title as one in the 80s by Crispin Aubrey that produced proof of illegal targeting of innocent citizens. )

[Marmalade]

No, I use a VPN, and have done since this was raised as a bill

I think you're right to do so. And not just whether you are worried about the government. As Apple pointed out, the backdoor policies (obligatory codes embedded in all standard software) to facilitate the government's access to your computer also facilitate access by cyber criminals for the purpose of blackmail and extortion.

A VPN might not stop the government looking for a serious criminal but it will more helpfully slow down someone who just wants to extort some money with a phishing or personalised attack.

Here's a tabloid report as I know not everyone likes getting into the techie stuff.
External Link/Members Only
(The tech reports are more worrying than the tabloids, not less.

[shagbambi]

The issue with the act is that it goes far, far beyond what has existed before.  Yes everything has been monitored.  But up until now access to this data was preserved within the security services.  Now, almost all arms of the state have access to your browsing history.  This includes local councils, the NHS, HMRC, Department of Transport, Department of Pensions....

You can see where this is going.  Almost anybody knows what you are doing online.  It is only a matter of time before these records are requested in a divorce case (an important point for married punters).

As a nation we have cheaply handed our civil liberties over to our rulers.  You may think that you are doing nothing wrong but it is only a matter of time before this information  is applied against you in a novel way.  Camera surveillance was justified as a tool to fight and prevent serious crime and terrorism but councils have applied the installed apparatus to fine for traffic and recycling offences.  We are being slowly being boiled like lobsters in a pot.

[a_test_person]

The issue with the act is that it goes far, far beyond what has existed before.  Yes everything has been monitored.  But up until now access to this data was preserved within the security services.  Now, almost all arms of the state have access to your browsing history.  This includes local councils, the NHS, HMRC, Department of Transport, Department of Pensions....

You can see where this is going.  Almost anybody knows what you are doing online.  It is only a matter of time before these records are requested in a divorce case (an important point for married punters).

As a nation we have cheaply handed our civil liberties over to our rulers.  You may think that you are doing nothing wrong but it is only a matter of time before this information  is applied against you in a novel way.  Camera surveillance was justified as a tool to fight and prevent serious crime and terrorism but councils have applied the installed apparatus to fine for traffic and recycling offences.  We are being slowly being boiled like lobsters in a pot.

Fully agree with this post. I think some of the previous comments don't really acknowledge the issues of this bill. As far as I can see there is almost no justification for allowing all these parties access to your visited domains. As you say, this stuff will almost certainly be used for no good end.

Admin: is it possible to allow me to browse this site anonymously? My VPS IP (ssh -D socks proxy to a server not in hte UK) and tor are blocked.

[Marmalade]

councils have applied the installed apparatus to fine for traffic and recycling offences.  We are being slowly being boiled like lobsters in a pot.

We don't have that yet in Scotland but I was horrified to see it when staying with friends in London. We did the 'rubbish disposal run' on the way to the pictures and it felt like 1984 (the book, not the comparatively innocuous time when Maggie's main target was miners.)

Sort it all out, put it in one of the designated bins for the exact type of rubbish disposed of, read heavy warnings about fines for making a mistake.
I have seen 'rubbish patrols' for shops in Edinburgh. They do a rubbish run, sorting through rubbish before the rubbish collectors do they rubbish retrieval rubbish run, find some rubbish item that was put in the wrong type of rubbish container and go into the shop with a warrant. ffs!

Not quite sure what people are meant to do if their unavoidably acquired rubbish exceeds statuary limits. Tell your kids to eat the cardboard that the cornflakes came in??

Sounds a load dangerous rubbish.

[Marmalade]

Admin: is it possible to allow me to browse this site anonymously? My VPS IP (ssh -D socks proxy to a server not in hte UK) and tor are blocked.

I think last time admin commented he said vpns were allowed for well-established members only. You can see the problem. He gets dozens of fake punters trying to disrupt the site daily. Having to trace their vpns would be a mass of extra work. Punting entails some risk. I suggest you establish yourself with a few hundred posts including some verifiable reviews. If not, there's always prossie-run sites.

I'm not trying to be ungenerous, but the threat to privacy is more potential than immediate. It has to be balanced against your vulnerability and how much hassle you are prepared to go through.

[Juilius_Sneezer]

Basically this existed before as the RIP act no? Just with cursory reading it seems to me that it takes the old method, pumps some steroids into it and throws the prerequisite of proof away...so much for innocent until proven guilty.

Reminds me of Mr Sweeny up here suggesting we get rid of corroboration!

Thing is that its not just limited to the UK. These acts are flying through the corridors of power all over the world. Surveillance of the population is spreading like a rash and I am just scared of the slippery slope...

[Marmalade]

Basically this existed before as the RIP act no? Just with cursory reading it seems to me that it takes the old method, pumps some steroids into it and throws the prerequisite of proof away...so much for innocent until proven guilty.

Reminds me of Mr Sweeny up here suggesting we get rid of corroboration!

Thing is that its not just limited to the UK. These acts are flying through the corridors of power all over the world. Surveillance of the population is spreading like a rash and I am just scared of the slippery slope...

Very true unfortunately. Many responsible news sites have pointed out the obvious: that despot countries will pass such legislation citing the UK as a model.

[JV547845]

If they want to get you, they'll get you.  Whenever there's a murder trial, the papers already have some little titbit that `the accused googled this or that just before the crime took place' and that is supposed to prove pre-meditation.  ISPs already have to keep records of your browsing for 6 months.

But they're seriously under manned, and are only just managing to stop the terror attacks they've been able to stop so far in the UK (and a couple of big ones got through the drag net entirely in America like the Boston bombing).  So I doubt punters or porn consumers are in their sights just yet.

[shagbambi]

So I doubt punters or porn consumers are in their sights just yet.

But the bored feminist at the council who has time on her hands may find your pursuits interesting. 

Furthermore all parts of government regularly lose sensitive information,

External Link/Members Only

How can they be trusted?

[JV547845]

But the bored feminist at the council who has time on her hands may find your pursuits interesting. 

So what?  What are the council going to prove from my ISP other than i've been on adutlwork and UKP and porn sites?  The council are not going to subpoena adultwork just to go after a punter.  Unless there's a bigger crime in which case I'd co-operate with the police anway.

If it's a big deal becaue it becomes illegal then I'll just use a VPN or Tor and do my punting in Germany.  They can't police the internet and safeguards are always available.

[lostandfound]

So what?  What are the council going to prove from my ISP other than i've been on adutlwork and UKP and porn sites?  The council are not going to subpoena adultwork just to go after a punter.  Unless there's a bigger crime in which case I'd co-operate with the police anway.

If it's a big deal becaue it becomes illegal then I'll just use a VPN or Tor and do my punting in Germany.  They can't police the internet and safeguards are always available.

AW is probably outside their jurisdiction anyway. More likely is that your access to AW might depend upon you disclosing your identity to AW under Claire Perry's anti-porn legislation. Would you want to share your identity with AW?

Punting in Germany, where OWO may be outlawed next year ... hmm.

[Marmalade]

But the bored feminist at the council who has time on her hands may find your pursuits interesting. 

Furthermore all parts of government regularly lose sensitive information,

External Link/Members Only

How can they be trusted?

They can't. But we 'elected' them and therefore haven't got much choice, apart from taking basic measures to maintain some decency in communications. Some of the comments on here are a bit ah-so-trusting... "Ah they can't see what pages I go to" (no, that's what the bill says, not what they can actually see if they want to). "Ah they wouldn't want to go after me", )nah, but some scumbag feminist sitting at her tabloid desk and in need of a story might, and some abolitionist nutjob on a government committee would have no problem as long as she keeps in with the right people.) "The ISP only keeps blahblah" (Sure it does, and some things are public. Don't expect them to say they install key loggers on everyone's computer and phone to do a quick trace on every mother's hash browns recipe you've visited, at high speed, just stopping if something 'interesting' appears. The ISPs have limited space. The UK Govt has one of the largest – possibly the largest – data storage facility on the world; they don't give a fuck about ISPs unless it is to say to people they are doing something, anything, to 'catch terrorists'.
Try this one: External Link/Members Only Snowden has released more factual data on the whole business of govt snooping than anyone, and backed it up with evidence.
It's not to get paranoid about; just to be aware of the world that we live in, that's all.

[JV547845]

Punting in Germany, where OWO may be outlawed next year ... hmm.

Oh shit, really?  I can live without OWO at the end of the day.

[Marmalade]

If it's a big deal becaue it becomes illegal then I'll just use a VPN or Tor and do my punting in Germany. 

Spot on with that (Tor and logs-free VPN are the best low-hassle measure). If some vulnerable newbie MP is reading this (e.g. the por sod who had the temerity to say that government decisions should data-led rather than church-approved) then it is a very basic precaution. Anyone working in an industry where someone else could get a competitive advantage by knowing what you do as well. Anyone who might be targetted for an entirely innocent reason (such as a distant relation you never speak to but turns out to be a supporter of ISIS).

There was a punter on here who had his CAREER his MARRIAGE his SOCIAL LIFE as well as his self-confidence severely fucked when a bitch prossie misread something he had written and took out a personal vendetta. She is still at large and tech savvy (not as tech savvy as our Admin but still dangerous). Just like you shut your front door when you go out, just like you don't put a big sign in your garden saying the house is empty and you won't be back for three weeks, just like you don't leave your business administration desk open for anyone to wander in from another company and flick through, just like you don't tell your wife every bit of fanny you fuck, it is an idea to remember that this is an open society not in the original sense but in the sense that most people's business is open to anyone with hacking skills or government noseyness eyes. Like safe sex, everyone's idea of cyber security is different. But it's good to have an idea!

[lostandfound]

Oh shit, really?  I can live without OWO at the end of the day.

Good for you. I think for many of us, me included, owo is delightful and I wouldn't want to do without it.

[Marmalade]

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[JV547845]

Good for you. I think for many of us, me included, owo is delightful and I wouldn't want to do without it.

Mate, I like a fucking blow job, but not to the extend that I'm going to be travel abroad and break the local laws to get one.  There's a lot more to sex than that, use your imagination.

[JV547845]

Hidden Image/Members Only

Marmalade I do think this is morally wrong and I do care about it.  but that was not OP's question. 

Surveillance is not a game changer for me because it's not illegal, I'm not cheating on a partner and I don't think anyone I know cares that much about what I get up to.

[lostandfound]

Mate, I like a fucking blow job, but not to the extend that I'm going to be travel abroad and break the local laws to get one.  There's a lot more to sex than that, use your imagination.

So don't travel abroad and break the local laws. Nobody's asking you to.

As for giving me advice on what I should do or how I should punt? You can go forth and multiply.

[Marmalade]

Marmalade I do think this is morally wrong and I do care about it.  but that was not OP's question. 

Which do you think is morally wrong, the Snoopers' Charter or Ed Snowden's actions?

Surveillance is not a game changer for me because it's not illegal, I'm not cheating on a partner and I don't think anyone I know cares that much about what I get up to.

I don't think it is for me either (and I didn't mean to derail the thread). But I think it is or should be for any punters in a more vulnerable position.

[Jimmyredcab]

Of UK citizens, Now they can look at every thing you have done.......

Is this a game changer for you and they things you say and use online, like on here? They will now know all your secrets......

External Link/Members Only

Is this a game changer for you and punting?

I invite GCHQ to monitor my E-Mails, phone calls and my Internet browser ----------- the only danger is that they will fall asleep.

These new laws are needed, we are currently at war with Islamic lunatics and it is a miracle that we have not had a major attack in London in recent years.   

[shagbambi]

Ones circumstances are fluid.  Unfortunately the law is not.  Once passed it will be present in your life. Today you can punt freely. Tomorrow? Next year? Five years down the line?

Today you may trust the government. The next one maybe. But in a decade?

[Jimmyredcab]

Ones circumstances are fluid.  Unfortunately the law is not.  Once passed it will be present in your life. Today you can punt freely. Tomorrow? Next year? Five years down the line?

Today you may trust the government. The next one maybe. But in a decade?

Not another project fear ------------- please.   

[YorkshireLad]

We will always be able to punt freely. How will they stop 2 consenting adults having sex in a private building?

[Jimmyredcab]

We will always be able to punt freely. How will they stop 2 consenting adults having sex in a private building?

I agree ----------------- however in the United States the police will sometimes set up "sting" operations, let's hope that never happens here.   

[YorkshireLad]

I agree ----------------- however in the United States the police will sometimes set up "sting" operations, let's hope that never happens here.   

That would only apply if you were TOFTT..If you were seeing a regular or a well reviewed girl that wouldn't be a problem. This situation is years away or may never happen at all so nothing to worry about at the moment.

[smiths]

Ones circumstances are fluid.  Unfortunately the law is not.  Once passed it will be present in your life. Today you can punt freely. Tomorrow? Next year? Five years down the line?

Today you may trust the government. The next one maybe. But in a decade?

Indeed. In reality the state has more than enough power and laws for what they say they need to catch terrorists in my view. And I don't trust any government.