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Author Topic: Angel X Angel - Bracknell/Wokingham  (Read 3386 times)


2 review(s) for Angel X Angel (1 positive, 1 neutral, 0 negative) [Indexed by ]

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
This is a difficult one...

External Link/Members Only or External Link/Members Only

Think she charged me £100 for the hour, because of the place she was in.

Terrible, borderline decrepit b&b near Wokingham, Just a room with a shared bathroom on the floor, nearly walked but Mr Downbelow was thinking for me. Communications had been ok, the history shows that this is not the case for others. Had to meet me outside so i could get in.

Definitely girl in pictures, 33 but seems younger.

I'd seen "Angel" years ago when she was "Katie" at the old place, Honeyz in Reading. That was a great punt, but I heard from other girls she was fired from there for being unreliable, and heard she had "personal problems". There's been threads on her unavailability and total bullshitter-ness before: pretending to want to meet guys outside of escorting; no-shows; lies; disappearing during punts for ages (see teeth, below); last minute let downs etc etc.
I'd been cancelled by another WG, had her phone number in the phone from ages back and decided for nostalgia and horn purposes to drop a text. Like I said, it'd been a great punt years ago, so don't judge!

She is a decent looking woman, with one of the best bodies I've ever experienced. Perfect natural tits. Unfortunately, it was quickly apparent that her teeth are in a fairly terrible state. It is fairly obvious why. She is also obviously living in this room, all her possessions are bagged up around the place. I felt sorry for her. She's a nice girl, but every other thing she says sounds like it's bullshit she's making up on the fly. So I didn't believe her when she said she's moving to a new place soon. This looked virtually like rock bottom. I'm slightly ashamed of myself for putting the negative out of my mind-afterward I felt a bit too much like I was exploiting a desperate person.

The frustrating thing is that the service was still good, though I wasn't too keen on kissing to be honest. The blowjob was still enthusiatic and frankly outstanding, sex (covered, obviously) was very enthusiastic and surprisingly erotic, and she can rim you for Britain. Takes a Facial and does CIM (doesn't swallow, thought she did previously), and it's difficult when the bathroom spunk disposal dash isn't exactly easy when you're butt naked! She skillfully steered me away from RO on her, making it all about me. Don't know whether she doesn't like it or is worried about her hygiene or something-she did wipe herself with wipes a few times, which was weird. There didn't really seem to be a smell anyway.

The overall feeling from this was one of frustration. 'Angel' should be doing incredibly well for herself. Honeyz closed a long time ago, and she's been working all the time i think - when people can get hold of her.  But she's living and working in this shithole place, with teeth that ruin her potential beauty. It was frustrating because she provides just about the best non-anal service I've ever experienced, and she really does like doing it. But for her to be in this place, things have clearly gone badly wrong for her. I don't have the heart to give a negative, but I don't think she should be in the game right now.
 
If she sorted herself out (and that's gonna be hard because these issues have obviously been going on a long time), found a proper flat, got her teeth sorted-which will be expensive & she clearly doesn't have the funds, and took the job seriously ie. paying attention to the customer service aspects like answering emails, texts and calls as soon as possible; and making sure she carries out her appointments, she still has time to do really well out of this industry-like I said, the body and attitude/enthusiasm is there in spades! I felt bad that she seemingly has nothing to show for so many years doing this, when other girls of her potential quality work for 2 or 3 and are set for life. She seems to be relying on some fluffies helping her out with shopping etc, it was just sad to see.

Would I return? Right now, no way. I'd love to see her being professional in future though.
Would I recommend? I can't in good conscience. Even though she clearly needs the money and is a nice girl.

Who'd have thought writing an escort review for strangers on the internet could make me feel so very uncomfortable?

Offline Cunning Punt

That sounds depressing all round.

Even if you did not feel you could give a negative for the experience, the fact she overcharged you £20 - at £100! - would be instant negative IMO.

Tried a couple of times to get hold of her, but didn't get a response. Seem I dodged a bullet.

Thanks for the TOFTT and a balanced review.

Offline HappyandLucky

Cheers for the review. Like a number of WG's she has issues, but although I had intended visiting I know I will never go close to a train wreck in the making.

Hopefully she will sort things out but my interpretation of the review is that she spends her funds on something that has taken over her life, which is difficult all round.  :hi:

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
That sounds depressing all round.

Even if you did not feel you could give a negative for the experience, the fact she overcharged you £20 - at £100! - would be instant negative IMO.

Tried a couple of times to get hold of her, but didn't get a response. Seem I dodged a bullet.

Thanks for the TOFTT and a balanced review.

It was an hour, so a discount of £30, i think. Ashamed to say i stayed for all of it...Like i said, kind of a good service. Best part of a decade ago, in her earlyish 20s, she was fucking spectacular! That's why its so sad/frustrating. I know the more hardened members of these boards will call me a fluffy, but I really did feel bad for her, i know we all make our own choices etc, but she genuinely is a nice girl who's obviously gone through some shit, and still makesan effort to give you a good time-that's why no negative. Not in a desperate kind of way, its much more honest than that-it felt like the most honest thing about her,actually!
Have heard of others, like that girl M3lissa in Reading a few yrs ago, who used to be crap,then used to disappear mid-punt when her crack dealer turned up!
I hope 'Angel' can sort herself out, but it's obviously been a long time. Like I said, still time for her to be very successful in this business-Still pretty fit apart from the teeth. But it won't be long until everything goes unless she's making changes.
Grrh,it's these kind of ones that stay with you as much as the great ones...
Not really TOFTT really guys, the infos kind of out there if you've been around, I was just in a horn-induced bind!

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
Cheers for the review. Like a number of WG's she has issues, but although I had intended visiting I know I will never go close to a train wreck in the making.

Hopefully she will sort things out but my interpretation of the review is that she spends her funds on something that has taken over her life, which is difficult all round.  :hi:

It might just be a temporary housing issue, she claimed her landlord kicked her out with 2 days notice or something, which sounds a little unlikely. Could be possible though.
You're reading the review right. Some things,if you're reasonably aware/have been around, you can just tell. Maybe she's getting help,who knows? Just such a waste, of course for us as she's potential quality (though it's obviously doubtful it's a good thing for her to be doing right now); but for her-that place is nowhere to have to live, or work.

Online advent2016

I've seen Angel several times, and although she is very unreliable, hard to meet and then find., I found she gives excellent service. I saw her a few months ago  in what was a friends flat, as she couldn’t find anything in the kitchen. For £80 I had 1.5 hours of ,  two excellent BJ to swallow, rimming, I spanked her. She talks a lot of the usual crap, but I find her friendly and honest.

This is a difficult one...

External Link/Members Only or External Link/Members Only

Think she charged me £100 for the hour, because of the place she was in.

Terrible, borderline decrepit b&b near Wokingham, Just a room with a shared bathroom on the floor, nearly walked but Mr Downbelow was thinking for me. Communications had been ok, the history shows that this is not the case for others. Had to meet me outside so i could get in.

Definitely girl in pictures, 33 but seems younger.

I'd seen "Angel" years ago when she was "Katie" at the old place, Honeyz in Reading. That was a great punt, but I heard from other girls she was fired from there for being unreliable, and heard she had "personal problems". There's been threads on her unavailability and total bullshitter-ness before: pretending to want to meet guys outside of escorting; no-shows; lies; disappearing during punts for ages (see teeth, below); last minute let downs etc etc.
I'd been cancelled by another WG, had her phone number in the phone from ages back and decided for nostalgia and horn purposes to drop a text. Like I said, it'd been a great punt years ago, so don't judge!

She is a decent looking woman, with one of the best bodies I've ever experienced. Perfect natural tits. Unfortunately, it was quickly apparent that her teeth are in a fairly terrible state. It is fairly obvious why. She is also obviously living in this room, all her possessions are bagged up around the place. I felt sorry for her. She's a nice girl, but every other thing she says sounds like it's bullshit she's making up on the fly. So I didn't believe her when she said she's moving to a new place soon. This looked virtually like rock bottom. I'm slightly ashamed of myself for putting the negative out of my mind-afterward I felt a bit too much like I was exploiting a desperate person.

The frustrating thing is that the service was still good, though I wasn't too keen on kissing to be honest. The blowjob was still enthusiatic and frankly outstanding, sex (covered, obviously) was very enthusiastic and surprisingly erotic, and she can rim you for Britain. Takes a Facial and does CIM (doesn't swallow, thought she did previously), and it's difficult when the bathroom spunk disposal dash isn't exactly easy when you're butt naked! She skillfully steered me away from RO on her, making it all about me. Don't know whether she doesn't like it or is worried about her hygiene or something-she did wipe herself with wipes a few times, which was weird. There didn't really seem to be a smell anyway.

The overall feeling from this was one of frustration. 'Angel' should be doing incredibly well for herself. Honeyz closed a long time ago, and she's been working all the time i think - when people can get hold of her.  But she's living and working in this shithole place, with teeth that ruin her potential beauty. It was frustrating because she provides just about the best non-anal service I've ever experienced, and she really does like doing it. But for her to be in this place, things have clearly gone badly wrong for her. I don't have the heart to give a negative, but I don't think she should be in the game right now.
 
If she sorted herself out (and that's gonna be hard because these issues have obviously been going on a long time), found a proper flat, got her teeth sorted-which will be expensive & she clearly doesn't have the funds, and took the job seriously ie. paying attention to the customer service aspects like answering emails, texts and calls as soon as possible; and making sure she carries out her appointments, she still has time to do really well out of this industry-like I said, the body and attitude/enthusiasm is there in spades! I felt bad that she seemingly has nothing to show for so many years doing this, when other girls of her potential quality work for 2 or 3 and are set for life. She seems to be relying on some fluffies helping her out with shopping etc, it was just sad to see.

Would I return? Right now, no way. I'd love to see her being professional in future though.
Would I recommend? I can't in good conscience. Even though she clearly needs the money and is a nice girl.

Who'd have thought writing an escort review for strangers on the internet could make me feel so very uncomfortable?

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
I've seen Angel several times, and although she is very unreliable, hard to meet and then find., I found she gives excellent service. I saw her a few months ago  in what was a friends flat, as she couldn’t find anything in the kitchen. For £80 I had 1.5 hours of ,  two excellent BJ to swallow, rimming, I spanked her. She talks a lot of the usual crap, but I find her friendly and honest.

Don't mean to sound aggressive, but how did you find her honest? I get the feeling there's probably an awful lot of people over the years who'd disagree with you.
Plus, the fact that an English girl, with that body, was only charging £80 for 90 minutes, even for a regular, is a pretty damn good indication of how desperate her situation is. She's obviously very keen to keep what few punters have stuck with her despite the shit-and I can understand guys staying, and choosing to be willfully blind as to what's going on. She's friendly (to the point of claiming she wants to see guys outside of punting apparently, imagine if you ever did she'd only be taking you for whatever she could get), still has a nice body, and gives good service (if you can block a lot of the negative stuff out). Personally, I prefer to be able to fully enjoy a meeting, not have my mind considering all the negative bullshit, and like my eyes to be appreciating her tits etc, not wandering looking for track marks- which i have to say, I could not see, I am very happy to report, unlike another girl I'll review soon!
I'm afraid I also have to doubt your claims of her swallowing (twice no less!), there was obviously no way she was swallowing me (I'm healthy, don't taste bad), despite it being the much easier option!

Offline Cunning Punt

It was an hour, so a discount of £30, i think.

Not really TOFTT really guys, the infos kind of out there if you've been around, I was just in a horn-induced bind!

Okay, fair enough. By the thread, I thought you could only bear half-an-hour!

I look on this site and this is the first review unless she had a previous profile no-one's mentioned.

There were only a couple of brief comments, one from Content Guy saying he would recommend and another recommendation from Berksboy, who, after being pressed, gave a small amount of info, saying she is disorganised and her place was crap etc - not giving the detail you have.

This is why we need reviews - as I pointed out to Berksboy on that very thread - but he's still on zero.

So, yes, I do regard it as a TOFTT, given the lack of info on here. and thanks again for posting.

Offline HappyandLucky

I've seen Angel several times, and although she is very unreliable, hard to meet and then find., I found she gives excellent service. I saw her a few months ago  in what was a friends flat, as she couldn’t find anything in the kitchen. For £80 I had 1.5 hours of ,  two excellent BJ to swallow, rimming, I spanked her. She talks a lot of the usual crap, but I find her friendly and honest.
Be kind enough to post a review.  :drinks:

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
Okay, fair enough. By the thread, I thought you could only bear half-an-hour!

I look on this site and this is the first review unless she had a previous profile no-one's mentioned.

There were only a couple of brief comments, one from Content Guy saying he would recommend and another recommendation from Berksboy, who, after being pressed, gave a small amount of info, saying she is disorganised and her place was crap etc - not giving the detail you have.

This is why we need reviews - as I pointed out to Berksboy on that very thread - but he's still on zero.

So, yes, I do regard it as a TOFTT, given the lack of info on here. and thanks again for posting.

She's had different names/profiles. 'Angel' with different numbers attached, think she tried using 'Katie' again in some context (like 'Katie's back' or something) a few yrs back. Wish I'd have seen her in the intervening years so I could definitively say how long her shit has been going on. Whether her 'personal issues' back in the day was actually the same problem as now, or whether she had a tough time (definitely seems like she's got a past in her eyes!) and the present problem is a symptom, i can't quite say.

Maybe other punters who've seen her (and there must have been punters helping her tick over all the time) can put their thinking with their wee brain aside and try to be objective here? I don't really want to keep kicking her either, you know.

And RE: the timing-I know, i know. It should've been a walk, or just a half hr, but having the horn and not got off for a while, it's amazing what you'll put up with knowing you can feel shit about it in the shower at home with empty balls! And she did empty them well...Grim, but these boards are littered with punters who do it! Sad bastards aren't we!?

Offline Cunning Punt

She's had different names/profiles. 'Angel' with different numbers attached

Done a quick search - Of all refs to Angels, she doesn't seem to be the Angel Brunette, which is still active, but possibly maybe former profile known as Angel12 in Bracknell but no real detail.

There are some escorts who have been around for several years but sometimes little or nothing on them here. Shows the value of doing reviews, even it's an indifferent experience.

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
Done a quick search - Of all refs to Angels, she doesn't seem to be the Angel Brunette, which is still active, but possibly maybe former profile known as Angel12 in Bracknell but no real detail.

There are some escorts who have been around for several years but sometimes little or nothing on them here. Shows the value of doing reviews, even it's an indifferent experience.

Uh huh, that'll be her. Think there was an angel09 as well.
Think she must've got by with regulars, of the type who think this is just an 'awful site'! Sounded like she's got some fluffies working for her. I can totally see how she could wrap a few weak-minded souls round her finger. Very friendly, sweet seeming girl, but definitely smarter than she portrays, despite the obvious problem. I'd wager the 'friends place' mentioned above was lent by a fluffy.

Tony Montanna

  • Guest
Shame had some memorable punts last year with her was seeing as a regular but as the OP pointed out she is totally unreliable but once in her company she really gives good VFM.

Can't belive her teeth are fucked up do you think they have been knocked out or just rotted?  Reason being I couldn't see any thing wrong last year she looked so hot ?

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
Shame had some memorable punts last year with her was seeing as a regular but as the OP pointed out she is totally unreliable but once in her company she really gives good VFM.

Can't belive her teeth are fucked up do you think they have been knocked out or just rotted?  Reason being I couldn't see any thing wrong last year she looked so hot ?

Hmmm. Think you were seeing what you wanted to see mate. There's a prossienet thread from 5 yrs ago which mentions her teeth were going (&  not good smell down below!), and I can definitely say that this was a long-term degeneration thing. If you saw her last year, they were bad-you just chose not to see it. Tho she seemed pretty good at hiding it, smiling closed mouth, angles etc. Sorry to be harsh on you, i was the same, when you see those tits/ass or she gets her gob round your cock, its easy to temporarily forget what you really know. Plus, there's such little quality, affordable service in the area i totally see why fellow punters would give a fit and friendly enough girl the benefit of the doubt. She's been around long enough i'm sure she knows what buttons to press. Almost fell for it myself!

Offline berksboy

  Think OP is right as thinking about it i have never seen her teeth ! But her bod is so hot and she does go for it . I first saw her about 7 years back so why is a fit as fuck Engish working girl living in a dump ? were has all that money gone ? For sure as a punter its just pay pump go but still sad.
   As OPs review is so spot on not much more i can add .

Offline ciscoxxx69

Interesting thread this....
I've been trying to meet her for a year now.... :dash:
Would love to play with her, but she has never replied to (.....or even read...) my AW emails.
Has never answered her mobile, never responded to a text.....
If anyone has got a plan that works, please DM me.... :drinks:

Online advent2016

No offence taken  ;)
.
Honest, I mean she didn't try and rob or up-scale me. It's always 80 quid.  I've known her a good few years, and how she fell from a good job, due to bad company, to a life changing decision to where she is now.
I rarely pay more than £100 for 30 mins with anyone.  I find some old fashioned ladies, only swallow for their regulars. Things I like about her: Body, accent, technique.
.
I realise in this game, the same lady can be good one day, and crap the next. C'est la vie.


Don't mean to sound aggressive, but how did you find her honest? I get the feeling there's probably an awful lot of people over the years who'd disagree with you.
Plus, the fact that an English girl, with that body, was only charging £80 for 90 minutes, even for a regular, is a pretty damn good indication of how desperate her situation is. She's obviously very keen to keep what few punters have stuck with her despite the shit-and I can understand guys staying, and choosing to be willfully blind as to what's going on. She's friendly (to the point of claiming she wants to see guys outside of punting apparently, imagine if you ever did she'd only be taking you for whatever she could get), still has a nice body, and gives good service (if you can block a lot of the negative stuff out). Personally, I prefer to be able to fully enjoy a meeting, not have my mind considering all the negative bullshit, and like my eyes to be appreciating her tits etc, not wandering looking for track marks- which i have to say, I could not see, I am very happy to report, unlike another girl I'll review soon!
I'm afraid I also have to doubt your claims of her swallowing (twice no less!), there was obviously no way she was swallowing me (I'm healthy, don't taste bad), despite it being the much easier option!

Offline ciscoxxx69

Interesting thread this....
I've been trying to meet her for a year now.... :dash:
Would love to play with her, but she has never replied to (.....or even read...) my AW emails.
Has never answered her mobile, never responded to a text.....
If anyone has got a plan that works, please DM me.... :drinks:

Sadly no DM yet...... :(

Offline inch

I've met her a couple of times, once in a reasonable flat and more recently (a few months ago) in a place which sounds exactly like the kind of place the OP described.
Some kind of hostel, shared bathroom, all her belongings in one place, bags everywhere, food on the windowsill hidden behind the curtains.

That said I also agree the service is actually pretty decent. She has a strap-on and she knows how to use it. Happy to finger you and applies good hygiene.
Body is great, tits are amazing. Zero signs of drug use - I specifically look out for such things.

Never noticed the teeth, but we've done FK and it wasn't unpleasant.
Down below was a little whiffy on the second time I saw her, I'll agree.

She's told me a bunch of stuff too, no idea how much is true and how much is made up. If she's making it up then she sticks to the story as I've heard the same thing more than once from her regarding her living arrangements, her backstory and her real profession.

When I last saw her she was going to move into 'a friends' house (a fluffy). She seemed a little unsure, and it obviously didn't work out well if she's back in temporary shitholes.

I find a text is the best way of booking her. I do actually have two numbers for her, one supposedly her personal phone.

I do wonder what she does with the money, though.

Offline contentguy

I've been thinking about how to respond to this.
I've seen Angel a number of times, at one stage it was getting too regular so took a break.  I haven't seen her since Octoberish last year.

Take the point on the neutral, but not entirely fair to critique the shit hole she's living in.
If it's the same shit hole she offered to see me in in January, I decided not to bother.
If you didn't know it's a hyper budget B&B when you booked, it's obvious when you get there. 
You even got a shithole discount which was a bonus.

On the teeth thing, I've not noticed will take a look next time.

She's disorganised, scatty a bit unreliable and is as genuine as a prossy gets.  I've never had anything but an enthusiastic service and she's gorgeous.  She's always been freshly showered, etc, etc.

I'm no fluffy and wish this lady would get herself organised as she could have a great future.

Guy

Offline HappyandLucky

Unfortunately it looks from what you read the girl has a habbit she can't kick. Most who have a serious addiction find it hard to be organised as their mind is focused on something else. A shame really.

Offline webpunter

I've been trying to meet her for a year now.... :dash:
Have you had a bump on the head recently ?  You've provided us with some epic reviews.  And good intel.  This one don't seem to fit in somehow.  Suppose variety is the spice ...  Good luck

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
I've met her a couple of times, once in a reasonable flat and more recently (a few months ago) in a place which sounds exactly like the kind of place the OP described.
Some kind of hostel, shared bathroom, all her belongings in one place, bags everywhere, food on the windowsill hidden behind the curtains.

That said I also agree the service is actually pretty decent. She has a strap-on and she knows how to use it. Happy to finger you and applies good hygiene.
Body is great, tits are amazing. Zero signs of drug use - I specifically look out for such things.

Never noticed the teeth, but we've done FK and it wasn't unpleasant.
Down below was a little whiffy on the second time I saw her, I'll agree.

She's told me a bunch of stuff too, no idea how much is true and how much is made up. If she's making it up then she sticks to the story as I've heard the same thing more than once from her regarding her living arrangements, her backstory and her real profession.

When I last saw her she was going to move into 'a friends' house (a fluffy). She seemed a little unsure, and it obviously didn't work out well if she's back in temporary shitholes.

I find a text is the best way of booking her. I do actually have two numbers for her, one supposedly her personal phone.

I do wonder what she does with the money, though.

Bingo.

Might be the same place! She may well have never left.

She obviously knows her teeth are bad, as previously stated, angles, closed mouth etc. It was really during a shag that she got a bit into it and forgot herself that i saw her fully open mouthed, looked like one of the hookers from the les mis film!

I got the feeling that whilst she's obviously lived a life, she tells a story to try to elicit some sympathy from punters. And it seems to work, 'cause she's had fluffies working for her certainly. Although tbh some of that sounded like bullshit, "he said he wanted to marry me" and all that shite. Like I've said, she's been around a long time and definitely knows how to push the buttons. Reckon she may well be running out of fluffies to work for her though. There's only so much bullshit even the fluffiest can take, when you realise she's not getting better, spending your money on shit etc.

I think she's changed numbers a few times, along with the profiles/negative stuff online.

Contacting her was actually easy this time, have tried in years past, with no success. Think it's pot luck.
 
Like you said, the money's the giveaway. If a pimp/boyfriend were taking a big chunk of her earnings, he would know it's not good to have her in that shithole place, looking like she's beginning to. Sad, truly do hope she gets sorted, it won't be long before things turn.

WhattheFlip

  • Guest
I've been thinking about how to respond to this.
I've seen Angel a number of times, at one stage it was getting too regular so took a break.  I haven't seen her since Octoberish last year.

Take the point on the neutral, but not entirely fair to critique the shit hole she's living in.
If it's the same shit hole she offered to see me in in January, I decided not to bother.
If you didn't know it's a hyper budget B&B when you booked, it's obvious when you get there. 
You even got a shithole discount which was a bonus.

On the teeth thing, I've not noticed will take a look next time.

She's disorganised, scatty a bit unreliable and is as genuine as a prossy gets.  I've never had anything but an enthusiastic service and she's gorgeous.  She's always been freshly showered, etc, etc.

I'm no fluffy and wish this lady would get herself organised as she could have a great future.

Guy

Not entirely fair to critique the shithole she's living in? Location's a tenet of field reporting isn't it!? Punters deserve to know if they're going to misery motel. I was using it more as an indication of the bigger issue though.
I'm sure I respect you as a punter, but it sounds like you, and a couple of others on this thread, have been getting a bit too emotionally attached to 'Angel'. I get it, as I've stated many times, most of her is fit, and she gives good service, to the point where I could totally see how seeing her regularly and chatting to her, you could fall for her..hard....but c'mon guys, take off the greattits-megaorgasm-tinted spectacles here! However, it's totally understandable, as it's easy to not see what's obvious when so much of her is good, great even.
I fear the wanting her to have a great future is very much in vain. This has obviously been going on a long, long time. Far more than she, or any of her regulars, would like to admit, i fear.

Unfortunately, being freshly showered can't hide the deeper health issues that lead to smelly fanny! Which others have experienced. She obviously knows she has a problem there, the amount she was wiping herself, it was obvious.

Also, sounds like you were offered the same place I saw her in...She said she'd only been there a couple weeks i think! Has clearly been there much longer.

Can't believe I'm writing in here again! Really didn't want to keep this going! Suppose it is interesting innit!! Do feel supremely guilty though! Must be more fluffy than I realised...