moving right-wards

[King Nuts]

I suppose that by any standard measure of the political spectrum, I am right of centre. I believe in free enterprise, freedom of speech and assembly, I believe graft is the key to success, and a strong family is the key to happiness and domestic and civil order. I'm OK with an unelected person as head of state, as well as being head of the military, the church, prisons and all the rest of it. I think imperial measurements are more 'human' than metric. I don't agree with drugs, and I believe in the law. I also accept we need state-run systems of education, health and defence and so on, and that we need an appropriate level of taxation to cover them all. And I support the military. Anti-EU too (obvs).

But I didn't used to think lile this at all when I was in my teens and 20s. My thinking then, as a rabid proto-commie, was the opposite of all these things. The state should take over everything. Borders are crap. The Army should be neutralised. Mao is top man, and all the rest of the Dave Spart-ite agenda.

I know mine has been a mental and intellectual journey many people have taken. Some stopped along the way and decided they were OK with being in the political centre, e.g. with Blair-ite, soft Labour thinking, and didn't go any further. Others I know have gone the whole hog and ended up living in the mountains of Wales or Wyoming, watching endless David Icke loops and stocking up on Spaghetti Hoops. But a lot of other former socialists I know, people now in their 50s and 60s, think the same as I do, but are afraid to ever voice such opinions.

The 20 year old me would have detested the 60 year old me. And the 60 year old me looks at the 20 year old, and thinks 'twat'.

So I sometimes wonder how this happened. Is it just exposure to life? The realisation you can't change the world by decree, only by letting people be? I don't claim any intellectual superiority, but I look at some of my still left-leaning friends and wonder how, after a lifetime of being exposed to the same things I have been, like travel, parenthood, running businesses and so on, that their hearts go all a-flutter when they see the hammer and sickle. I just see tyranny and death in that symbol, and wonder how the fuck I ever admired it.

Of course, there's always the possibility that as I get older still, I'll embrace communism/socialism all over again, and start thinking that the whole capitalist system's a crock. Does anyone ever go from hard or soft right, to hard left? I'm sure someone must've.


I guess a great deal of us sad fuckers on here are 50+, so I'd be interested to hear others' comments.

[Thephoenix]

Agree pretty well everything and travelled the same journey.

I think it the journey from naive idealism of youth to the reality of the world we live in as we get older and as we've probably got more to lose from the fruits of our labour, come the revolution.

Even many politicians mellow as they get older.

I remember as a young recruit emergency service worker many moons ago thinking about the unfairness of the pay system throughout the various professions, and wondering why we don't just have a standard wage level with added bonus for risk levels, unsociable hour, skills, responsibilities, etc etc...very idealistic but also very naive about how the capitalist system works, business and the value of entrepreneurs etc.

As the well known serenity prayer goes:-
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

I just think after a while, many of us realise that you can't always change a situation, but you can change how you think and deal with it.

However, like you, with the mess we now find ourselves in, and the unfairness we see in how all these vital services and key workers have been undervalued and under funded, I'm starting to wonder if the youthful idealism I once had about how society should be run is not so daft after all.

[fudi_maar]

So I sometimes wonder how this happened. Is it just exposure to life?

It all happened cos you saw the reality of life - the advantages of living in a free and capitalist society as opposed to the oppressive prison of socialism. In the 20's a lot of kids (cos that's what we still are back then) think it's cool to be anti-society, anti-establishment, and bang the socialism drum. To go on protests, to talk about "changing the world", to "free the oppressed people in [name-of-any-third-world-country]. Most do it due to subtle peer-pressure, to look cool with our comrade friends, and also cos we have little money of our own, and we hate to see other people have lots of it, and we think it's called socialism, but really the medical term is 'envy'.

As soon as someone starts working, gets married, has a mortgage, all that socialism bollocks goes out of the window.

Of course, there's always the possibility that as I get older still, I'll embrace communism/socialism all over again, and start thinking that the whole capitalist system's a crock. Does anyone ever go from hard or soft right, to hard left? I'm sure someone must've.

Have your ever met ANYONE who has left a free, democratic country to go and live in a communist one cos they got fed up of the freedom of thought, of opinion, of being able to progress in life, and wanted to live the comrade lifestyle?
It simply doesn't happen. Of course, people may become more leftist as they grow older and talk about "open borders", "immigration is good"
etc, but no one becomes a communist out of choice.

[hillingdonpete]

This quote was wrongly attributed to Churchill. But I find the saying is true.

‘If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart.  If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.’

I on the other hand have always been right wing.

[Kev40ish]

I suppose that by any standard measure of the political spectrum, I am right of centre. I believe in free enterprise, freedom of speech and assembly, I believe graft is the key to success, and a strong family is the key to happiness and domestic and civil order. I'm OK with an unelected person as head of state, as well as being head of the military, the church, prisons and all the rest of it. I think imperial measurements are more 'human' than metric. I don't agree with drugs, and I believe in the law. I also accept we need state-run systems of education, health and defence and so on, and that we need an appropriate level of taxation to cover them all. And I support the military

This is generally my view although I have always thought this even from a young age.
I have always been centre right, at Uni studied Politics, joined a blue chip company providing audit & assurance, consulting, risk and financial advisory, risk management, tax, and related services.

Set up my own Company that advises on the delivery of projects.

However this is where my views have changed, I deal with commercialism at its worst. I have worked in many countries that really just don’t care.

I suppose people’s views are changed by what they see and experience, my main political views haven’t changed much, just how socially they should be applied.

I now make sure that any projects I work on take into account the people they affect. I will be honest it’s fortunate that companies are concerned about their brand image and this can be used to make them more socially aware.

I probably have become more liberal in my views than I would ever imagine from when I was younger

It doesn’t mean I dislike the left and snowflakes any less though 

[hornyguylondon]

This is generally my view although I have always thought this even from a young age.
I have always been centre right, at Uni studied Politics, joined a blue chip company providing audit & assurance, consulting, risk and financial advisory, risk management, tax, and related services.

Set up my own Company that advises on the delivery of projects.

However this is where my views have changed, I deal with commercialism at its worst. I have worked in many countries that really just don’t care.

I suppose people’s views are changed by what they see and experience, my main political views haven’t changed much, just how socially they should be applied.

I now make sure that any projects I work on take into account the people they affect. I will be honest it’s fortunate that companies are concerned about their brand image and this can be used to make them more socially aware.

I probably have become more liberal in my views than I would ever imagine from when I was younger

It doesn’t mean I dislike the left and snowflakes any less though 

Nice summary, you're not alone 

[hullad]

My parents where very much liberal party but must grandfather was a union leader and a  socialist. He fought on the Western front, injured twice and came back to his home fit for heroes to find nothing but reducing wages, unemployment and poverty. I got my lead from him and I have always strived to meet his ideals. I served my country most of my working life and I have never wavered in my ideals. Even in the military I found similar thinking people in fact in my branch we where nearly all left wing. All highly trained and encouraged to think and act for ourselves. I am not a raging trot or a Tony Blair fan I hold some right wing views on the military and nuclear weapons. I would abolish private medicine in a heartbeat and then watch as the whole NHS lifted up. Some things work better in public hands some do not. We need the people to develope and produce that has to be rewarded. We don't need leeches who feed off everyone like those in the futures markets etc. Banks had a bail out on 2008 and now seem to struggle helping businesses now, we need them to pay us back the billions back now.


I am retired from work now, it's true to say I have inherited a large amount of money in recent years on top of my pensions and gratuities. I should be a Tory but I am more committed now to having social equality then ever. I see socialist policies being used now to protect and maintain our countries people, business and services.

My grandad told me ' companies get the union they deserve ' I see he was right and I add to that ' countries get the government they deserve '

[willie loman]

I suppose that by any standard measure of the political spectrum, I am right of centre. I believe in free enterprise, freedom of speech and assembly, I believe graft is the key to success, and a strong family is the key to happiness and domestic and civil order. I'm OK with an unelected person as head of state, as well as being head of the military, the church, prisons and all the rest of it. I think imperial measurements are more 'human' than metric. I don't agree with drugs, and I believe in the law. I also accept we need state-run systems of education, health and defence and so on, and that we need an appropriate level of taxation to cover them all. And I support the military. Anti-EU too (obvs).

But I didn't used to think lile this at all when I was in my teens and 20s. My thinking then, as a rabid proto-commie, was the opposite of all these things. The state should take over everything. Borders are crap. The Army should be neutralised. Mao is top man, and all the rest of the Dave Spart-ite agenda.

I know mine has been a mental and intellectual journey many people have taken. Some stopped along the way and decided they were OK with being in the political centre, e.g. with Blair-ite, soft Labour thinking, and didn't go any further. Others I know have gone the whole hog and ended up living in the mountains of Wales or Wyoming, watching endless David Icke loops and stocking up on Spaghetti Hoops. But a lot of other former socialists I know, people now in their 50s and 60s, think the same as I do, but are afraid to ever voice such opinions.

The 20 year old me would have detested the 60 year old me. And the 60 year old me looks at the 20 year old, and thinks 'twat'.

So I sometimes wonder how this happened. Is it just exposure to life? The realisation you can't change the world by decree, only by letting people be? I don't claim any intellectual superiority, but I look at some of my still left-leaning friends and wonder how, after a lifetime of being exposed to the same things I have been, like travel, parenthood, running businesses and so on, that their hearts go all a-flutter when they see the hammer and sickle. I just see tyranny and death in that symbol, and wonder how the fuck I ever admired it.

Of course, there's always the possibility that as I get older still, I'll embrace communism/socialism all over again, and start thinking that the whole capitalist system's a crock. Does anyone ever go from hard or soft right, to hard left? I'm sure someone must've.


I guess a great deal of us sad fuckers on here are 50+, so I'd be interested to hear others' comments.

You believe in freedom when it suits you, you don't believe in freedom for those who don't agree with you. You have had a problem with drugs in your life, so you want the taxpayer to throw even more money down the drain on an anti-drugs war that is unwinnable, and opposed by every expert who has worked in the field for the last 30 years.You are pro family, but seem to be a serial husband who visits prostitutes?

[King Nuts]

You believe in freedom when it suits you, you don't believe in freedom for those who don't agree with you. You have had a problem with drugs in your life, so you want the taxpayer to throw even more money down the drain on an anti-drugs war that is unwinnable, and opposed by every expert who has worked in the field for the last 30 years.You are pro family, but seem to be a serial husband who visits prostitutes?

I normally have you on 'ignore', as you have an unerring ability to perceive black as white, white as black, and so on, and then you join in any and all debates, armed with a variety of ass-backward views to add to your innate spite, that prove it.

I believe in freedom for all, including people I disagree with. I don't have a personal problem with drugs, and have been a user in the past and have seen the damage that habitual drug use does to people and their families. The so-called drugs war is a myth. There's never been a drugs war. It's a tabloid construction. Legislation these last few decades has mostly been ineffective, as both the police and politicians don't really have their hearts in enforcement, and widespread use of marijuana and cocaine these days means those drugs are tacitly accepted in society in way that wasn't the case decades ago. End of the day, people can do what they like, but I don't agree with drugs, and am able to disagree without wanting to shut people down who do like getting out of their heads.

Yes, I have visited tarts, and been married more than once. So fucking what?  What are you, the morality police? I am close to my kids and am on good terms with the ex-missuses, and support them as I do my kids. So yes, I believe in the strength of family. Mine just happens to be less nuclear than some, and with a few more branches off it.

[King Nuts]

 I am more committed now to having social equality then ever. I see socialist policies being used now to protect and maintain our countries people, business and services.

This is the pivotal point. How does one achieve or at least meaningfully strive towards achieving social equality? And at what point do you say you've got it, and let things take their course?

To the Left, this is a cause and a battle without end. 'Equality', which is a pretty vague aim at the best of times, is always just a little further over the horizon, and the principle of socialism is based on this unwinnable battle. It's no surprise that at all social levels, Brits, many of whom have begrudgery at the centre of their belief system, embrace socialism, and over the last few election campaigns, the Labour Party had nothing more than begrudgery at the core of all their policies.

Meanwhile, in the real world, I look at my own history and that of many people of my generation, and wonder how we broke out of our pretty humble beginnings to enjoy the kind of lifestyles that were not available to our parents, and unimaginable to our grandparents. Without wanting to write an entire fucking thesis on it, I put it down to a combination of being fortunate enough to have had a good state education (having passed the 11+), parents who encouraged free thinking, and a state that has not been heavy-handed with dogmatic regulation and red tape (like France, for instance.) I fear that the environment for kids these days is very different, and all the bleating in the media about the slowing up of social mobility these last few years, confirms my fears.

As regards your second sentence, you'd probably not have the USA down as a socialist state. But in many ways, it has more devices to level social and financial inequality than the UK does. I have a business in California. Tax and other compulsory deductions from wages are much higher than here, and are spread around a lot further, to benefit a variety of state agencies designed to support poorer and other disadvantaged people. Depending on your market sector, trade union membership is mostly compulsory, and again, deductions for healthcare, pensions, widows' funds and so on, are significant. For businesses, taxes, licences and related payments are levied at county, state and federal level.

Land of the free, huh.

[sparkus]

I think we had this discussion on here before and it was established that by and large the most frequent contributors to the site tend towards the right, though there's a sizeable minority who don't.  As I also recall, this discussion a couple of years ago was also riddled with 'It's understandable to be worried about immigration/multiculturalism' crap.

But for the most part, I suspect UKP is read mainly by people with no politics whatsoever, rabid commies, Hitler fetishists, lizard truth seekers, Green parish councillors, bestiality advocates, monarchists, the odd MP and Welsh worker republicans.

[fudi_maar]

As regards your second sentence, you'd probably not have the USA down as a socialist state. But in many ways, it has more devices to level social and financial inequality than the UK does. I have a business in California. Tax and other compulsory deductions from wages are much higher than here, and are spread around a lot further, to benefit a variety of state agencies designed to support poorer and other disadvantaged people. Depending on your market sector, trade union membership is mostly compulsory, and again, deductions for healthcare, pensions, widows' funds and so on, are significant. For businesses, taxes, licences and related payments are levied at county, state and federal level.

Land of the free, huh.

Don't judge the whole of US based on California - this is probably the most leftist state in the whole country. Trump didn't even bother to visit it during his 2016 campaign. It's rabidly Democratic. Not to mention full of literally millions of illegals.

[King Nuts]

Don't judge the whole of US based on California - this is probably the most leftist state in the whole country. Trump didn't even bother to visit it during his 2016 campaign. It's rabidly Democratic. Not to mention full of literally millions of illegals.

Quite.

[King Nuts]

I think we had this discussion on here before and it was established that by and large the most frequent contributors to the site tend towards the right, though there's a sizeable minority who don't.  As I also recall, this discussion a couple of years ago was also riddled with 'It's understandable to be worried about immigration/multiculturalism' crap.

But for the most part, I suspect UKP is read mainly by people with no politics whatsoever, rabid commies, Hitler fetishists, lizard truth seekers, Green parish councillors, bestiality advocates, monarchists, the odd MP and Welsh worker republicans.

I think you're mostly right with this. I am just interested in how, when and why people move along the political spectrum. The trajectory is mostly left to right, but I wonder if anyone's ever gone in the opposite direction, and why.

The very last thing I wanted to do was get into an immigration/multiculturalism thing, as that's usually followed on here by a thunderclap of shit.

[sparkus]

I think you're mostly right with this. I am just interested in how, when and why people move along the political spectrum. The trajectory is mostly left to right, but I wonder if anyone's ever gone in the opposite direction, and why.

The very last thing I wanted to do was get into an immigration/multiculturalism thing, as that's usually followed on here by a thunderclap of shit.

Tony Benn and more recently Chris Williamson went from centre-left to hard left, but that may have been finger in the wind in the case of the latter.  Ditto that for most Labour MPs who fancied promotion/wanted to keep their seat probably

I know someone who's ex-forces, says when he signed up he was wide-eyed Queen and country type, but several tours overseas plus the rigours of war showed him how the world really was and now he's to the left of Stalin.

[Chorley]

I think you can't really pigeonhole people, although some people do insist! 
As an example, the late Bob Crow, probably one of the most militant and left wing union leaders in recent history, actually had quite right wing views on things like the death penalty and law and order in general.

[sparkus]

I think you can't really pigeonhole people, although some people do insist! 
As an example, the late Bob Crow, probably one of the most militant and left wing union leaders in recent history, actually had quite right wing views on things like the death penalty and law and order in general.

That's not so surprising, there's a strain of 'economic' left-wing thought in this country which gets all warm and mushy about family, class and institutions (including unions) but isn't comfortable with social liberalism at all.  Crow's RMT union was quite pro-Brexit as well as I recall.

[King Nuts]

I think you can't really pigeonhole people, although some people do insist! 
As an example, the late Bob Crow, probably one of the most militant and left wing union leaders in recent history, actually had quite right wing views on things like the death penalty and law and order in general.

Not pigeon-holing anyone. If anything, trying to do the opposite.

The old Labour Party, long before the modernisers of the 60s like Roy Jenkins and Harold Wilson, was very strong on law and order, as it saw that a strong and vigorous justice system benefitted the poor and the working man more than anyone.

For similar reasons, the party was also anti-EU. Bob Crow was a revisionist, and believed in all the old Old Labour values.

[Chorley]

Not pigeon-holing anyone. If anything, trying to do the opposite.

The old Labour Party, long before the modernisers of the 60s like Roy Jenkins and Harold Wilson, was very strong on law and order, as it saw that a strong and vigorous justice system benefitted the poor and the working man more than anyone.

For similar reasons, the party was also anti-EU. Bob Crow was a revisionist, and believed in all the old Old Labour values.

I wasn't suggesting it was you. Why so paranoid?

[King Nuts]

I wasn't suggesting it was you. Why so paranoid?

I don't think I'm paranoid. But even if you're not paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

[Chorley]

I don't think I'm paranoid. But even if you're not paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

I'll drink to that KN

[Thephoenix]

I'd be interested to know if your journeys back and forth between left/centre/right some of you have described was also expressed in your voting preferences.

My parents and older relatives were very set in their political views, as I think that generation often were.

My father was a working class Liverpudlian who would always vote labour, whereas my mother thought she was a bit posh and would only ever vote conservative.

People living in different parts of the country have traditionally followed those trends, but I wonder if there are more floating voters these days.
Whilst I understand the strong political principles some people retain throughout their lives, I wonder if those of you describing how your views have changed, have also changed your voting preferences.

I've voted labour, DLP, liberal, conservative based on my views and values at the time, but also after weighing up the policies and personalities involved.

[mace-window]

I suppose that by any standard measure of the political spectrum, I am right of centre. I believe in free enterprise, freedom of speech and assembly, I believe graft is the key to success, and a strong family is the key to happiness and domestic and civil order. I'm OK with an unelected person as head of state, as well as being head of the military, the church, prisons and all the rest of it. I think imperial measurements are more 'human' than metric. I don't agree with drugs, and I believe in the law. I also accept we need state-run systems of education, health and defence and so on, and that we need an appropriate level of taxation to cover them all. And I support the military. Anti-EU too (obvs).

But I didn't used to think lile this at all when I was in my teens and 20s. My thinking then, as a rabid proto-commie, was the opposite of all these things. The state should take over everything. Borders are crap. The Army should be neutralised. Mao is top man, and all the rest of the Dave Spart-ite agenda.

I know mine has been a mental and intellectual journey many people have taken. Some stopped along the way and decided they were OK with being in the political centre, e.g. with Blair-ite, soft Labour thinking, and didn't go any further. Others I know have gone the whole hog and ended up living in the mountains of Wales or Wyoming, watching endless David Icke loops and stocking up on Spaghetti Hoops. But a lot of other former socialists I know, people now in their 50s and 60s, think the same as I do, but are afraid to ever voice such opinions.

The 20 year old me would have detested the 60 year old me. And the 60 year old me looks at the 20 year old, and thinks 'twat'.

So I sometimes wonder how this happened. Is it just exposure to life? The realisation you can't change the world by decree, only by letting people be? I don't claim any intellectual superiority, but I look at some of my still left-leaning friends and wonder how, after a lifetime of being exposed to the same things I have been, like travel, parenthood, running businesses and so on, that their hearts go all a-flutter when they see the hammer and sickle. I just see tyranny and death in that symbol, and wonder how the fuck I ever admired it.

Of course, there's always the possibility that as I get older still, I'll embrace communism/socialism all over again, and start thinking that the whole capitalist system's a crock. Does anyone ever go from hard or soft right, to hard left? I'm sure someone must've.


I guess a great deal of us sad fuckers on here are 50+, so I'd be interested to hear others' comments.

I to agree pretty much most of what you pointed out but traveled a different journey than you King Nuts and a bit further right than you. Let say all of my political awaking happened in my 20's which is fast as I am still my 20's. They is a saying if you are not a liberal in your 20's you got no heart and if your not an conservative in your 30's plus you got no brain. I fit that quote but difference is that it all happened in my 20's.

[King Nuts]

I'd be interested to know if your journeys back and forth between left/centre/right some of you have described was also expressed in your voting preferences.

Good question.

I was a Labour voter from the time I could vote up until Blair. I was overjoyed to see him get in to Number Ten in 1997 but of course the rot set in shortly after.

Through the 2000s and 2010s I was floating. Voted Green at one point, spoiled my paper a couple of times. Never actually voted Tory. Last few years I have voted for anyone and anything that would get us out of the EU.

Nearly voted Tory in Dec 2019, but for the first time ever, decided not to vote at all. Like P J O'Rourke says, 'Don't vote. It just encourages the bastards'.

[sparkus]

Not pigeon-holing anyone. If anything, trying to do the opposite.

The old Labour Party, long before the modernisers of the 60s like Roy Jenkins and Harold Wilson, was very strong on law and order, as it saw that a strong and vigorous justice system benefitted the poor and the working man more than anyone.

For similar reasons, the party was also anti-EU. Bob Crow was a revisionist, and believed in all the old Old Labour values.

Just on a point of accuracy here, you're very right than Labour in government pre-Blair ("Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime") was probably not that much different to the Tories, even though the latter were supposed to be the "party of law and order", but from my readings of history Roy Jenkins was definitely a social liberal as British Home Secretaries go (and something of a shagger too).  Labour in the 1970s actually presided over a pretty brutal borstal system, not to mention their policies in Northern Ireland (internment without trial) though I can only imagine some on here would salivate at the thought of the birch being brought back.

[Colston36]

I think you're mostly right with this. I am just interested in how, when and why people move along the political spectrum. The trajectory is mostly left to right, but I wonder if anyone's ever gone in the opposite direction, and why.

The very last thing I wanted to do was get into an immigration/multiculturalism thing, as that's usually followed on here by a thunderclap of shit.

Political views and personal preferences are not in harness. It is perfectly possible to believe in personal freedom in matters sexual but not be left-wing. When young I was very friendly with a former member of the Communist party's central committee, but I never followed his views. What impressed me about him was that he was living with a 19 year old when in his late fifties. I have done work for both political parties here and one in the U.S. All involved were chiefly interested in themselves. The "drugs war" is an mad American invention along the same lines as Prohibition. When our previously sane policy of prescribing for addicts was replaced by the present one my partner at the time, a retired working girl and former addict, predicted that crime would take over, and it has. On the matter of immigration, we are a nation of immigrants. Johnson is of immigrant stock. The only impressive member of his cabinet, Rishi, is. But then so is the unpleasant but well-fit Patel. On the other hand Oliver Dowden, the idiot who let the Cheltenham Festival go ahead is of British stock. Why we need a Culture Secretary God knows. 150 years ago when we had the most powerful Empire in the world Palmerston ran the whole shebang with a few dozen people.

[King Nuts]

Political views and personal preferences are not in harness. It is perfectly possible to believe in personal freedom in matters sexual but not be left-wing. When young I was very friendly with a former member of the Communist party's central committee, but I never followed his views. What impressed me about him was that he was living with a 19 year old when in his late fifties. I have done work for both political parties here and one in the U.S. All involved were chiefly interested in themselves. The "drugs war" is an mad American invention along the same lines as Prohibition. When our previously sane policy of prescribing for addicts was replaced by the present one my partner at the time, a retired working girl and former addict, predicted that crime would take over, and it has. On the matter of immigration, we are a nation of immigrants. Johnson is of immigrant stock. The only impressive member of his cabinet, Rishi, is. But then so is the unpleasant but well-fit Patel. On the other hand Oliver Dowden, the idiot who let the Cheltenham Festival go ahead is of British stock. Why we need a Culture Secretary God knows. 150 years ago when we had the most powerful Empire in the world Palmerston ran the whole shebang with a few dozen people.

Well, I was hoping we'd keep immigration out of this thread. As a forum member of ten years' standing, I know where this goes. A thunderclap of shit is usually the result. Let's hope it doesn't happen this time.

As regards drugs and crime, you are making the assumption that criminalising drugs is the cause of a great deal of crime, and that therefore we need to appease drug dealers and users. I don't agree that that's the solution. I could write a book on it, but won't. At least not here and not now.
 
As regards believing in personal freedom but not being left-wing, I have no idea what even informs that view. Most people I know on the Right are essentially libertarian. I certainly am. I have no interest in - and no interest in restricting - anyone else's private, personal behaviour or opinions. It's the Left that seeks to control behaviour, from what I have learned, because those on the Left believe that people are essentially stupid and need the warm, welcoming and rescuing hand of the State in order to leave 'proper' lives.

[sparkus]

Political views and personal preferences are not in harness. It is perfectly possible to believe in personal freedom in matters sexual but not be left-wing. When young I was very friendly with a former member of the Communist party's central committee, but I never followed his views. What impressed me about him was that he was living with a 19 year old when in his late fifties. I have done work for both political parties here and one in the U.S. All involved were chiefly interested in themselves. The "drugs war" is an mad American invention along the same lines as Prohibition. When our previously sane policy of prescribing for addicts was replaced by the present one my partner at the time, a retired working girl and former addict, predicted that crime would take over, and it has. On the matter of immigration, we are a nation of immigrants. Johnson is of immigrant stock. The only impressive member of his cabinet, Rishi, is. But then so is the unpleasant but well-fit Patel. On the other hand Oliver Dowden, the idiot who let the Cheltenham Festival go ahead is of British stock. Why we need a Culture Secretary God knows. 150 years ago when we had the most powerful Empire in the world Palmerston ran the whole shebang with a few dozen people.

Historically radical left/protest movements have generally attracted an ample supply of young wide-eyed women, because they're attracted to thrill-seeking and perhaps not swayed by the textbook arguments around money supply and defence of the right.  Of course, this can also lead to sexual exploitation by those in power in such groups.

Prostitution is a capital offence in North Korea, possibly as it's one way for the peasantry to upend the unequal distribution of food by the state.  It's certainly an interesting argument to have with any dyed-in-the-wool commie defender of that regime.

[Belgarion]

I try to think I listen to issues and form an opinion even though my politics is left wing. My parents are both left wing and were strong pillars of their communities even after my mums passing.

1. I'm not a fan of paying significant amounts of tax whilst corporations avoid it and get subsidised by the tax payer. I do not agree with inheritance taxes and do not think people should have to pay higher taxes at higher bands (I.e. 50% of their income).

2. I believe we should have a robust welfare state to help people who fall on bad times.

3. I believe every human being has rights and should have access to free healthcare and education.

4. I do not believe able bodied people should not work

5. I support the death penalty for rapists and paedos

6. I do not believe a single penny of tax payer money should be used to bail out companies who do not pay their correct share of taxes here and use tax havens.

7. I do not think we should have homeless people in one of the richest countries in the world.

8. I do not believe the govt should waste money chasing around people who use recreational drugs. However if they commit crimes to feed their habit, throw the book at them.

9. I don't really care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, it is none of my business.

10. I don't hate foreigners/immigrants/people different from me. I also treat people as individuals and do not blame large groups of people for the crimes of a minority.

11. I believe men and women should be paid equally when doing the same job.

12. Caring about those who are left behind is a strength not a weakness and the notion that people on the left of the politcal spectrum are bleeding hearts is just daft. Decent human beings should care about others.

13. War and conflict should be last resorts as bombs rarely work long term. Some of the best relationships we have these days have been as a result of development programmes and not bombs

14. I do not think the circumstances of your birth gives you special powers or privileges. If you are not ready to work and graft, the world will pass you by and I have little sympathy for people moaning about people taking their jobs.

15. I think a well functioning adult should have an open mind, listen  to arguments, assess them using facts (not opinions) and come to a conclusion.

16. I don't see why the public should build and provide infrastructure for rail, water and power companies and give these assets to corporations that capitalise the profits and socialise the losses. That is just bad business and I am surprised many "capitalists" have no issues with it. At the same time, these benefits are not passed on to the average user but shareholders. Other countries also benefit from our inability to manage our assets well.

17. I have no issues with Private Schools (Public Schools), went to them myself but I'm very concerned about the networks formed by the rich and powerful. These prevent regular people from having the same opportunities even if they have the same talents.

18. I also believe history plays a role in the society we have today. Kids from working class backgrounds and poorer backgrounds don't have access to the same opportunities and we need to bridge that gap or we will continue to have problems as a society.

19. I'm not selfish and believe we can all succeed together and society is better when everyone has an opportunity to be something.

20. Finally, I'm a great believer in Science

[sparkus]

Political views and personal preferences are not in harness. It is perfectly possible to believe in personal freedom in matters sexual but not be left-wing. When young I was very friendly with a former member of the Communist party's central committee, but I never followed his views. What impressed me about him was that he was living with a 19 year old when in his late fifties. I have done work for both political parties here and one in the U.S. All involved were chiefly interested in themselves. The "drugs war" is an mad American invention along the same lines as Prohibition. When our previously sane policy of prescribing for addicts was replaced by the present one my partner at the time, a retired working girl and former addict, predicted that crime would take over, and it has. On the matter of immigration, we are a nation of immigrants. Johnson is of immigrant stock. The only impressive member of his cabinet, Rishi, is. But then so is the unpleasant but well-fit Patel. On the other hand Oliver Dowden, the idiot who let the Cheltenham Festival go ahead is of British stock. Why we need a Culture Secretary God knows. 150 years ago when we had the most powerful Empire in the world Palmerston ran the whole shebang with a few dozen people.

If you want more accurate figures of the number of civil servants it took to run the Empire then perhaps look here but a "few dozen" is very wide of the mark: External Link/Members Only

As for having a Culture Secretary, being Prime Minister means being a party leader and that means promising jobs to other MPs when running for the top job and when trying to keep it, by law the UK Cabinet can't number more than 22 paid posts but you can create more jobs round the table outside of the main ones of Chancellor, Home Sec, Foreign Sec etc. by keeping as many functions as separate as possible.  Also, Culture Sec (a Blair era invention if I am not wrong?) is an entry-level post to the Cabinet like International Development or Work and Pensions as you can't expect to be made Foreign Secretary as your first job (oh, unless you're Boris).

If you go on holiday you will often see signs for Ministry of Education and Culture or somesuch on schools, because only the French keep it as a separate thing (and trust me that government is full of weird ministries).  Boris had his chance to take an axe to all of this to reduce spending but he chickened out because he knew he needed to dish out big jobs to get Brexit through.

[Spencer Fobby]

I do not believe in boxing my views into 'left wing/right wing' categories.

I believe in logic tempered by compassion and compassion tempered by logic.  I question all authority.  I believe that we all should be free to behave the way we like, but I would hope that generally we follow the golden rule and 'do as you would be done by'.

Each day I find myself shaking my head at the mainstream media... but I distrust 'alternative views' in many cases. 

I believe in the essential goodness of the human soul and that most people would do good most of the time.  But I am constantly challenged in this belief by the small minded, selfish, nasty and judgemental things I read/hear/witness... 

It is part of human nature to hold conflicting views and to live in a state of contradictory opinions. 

I try not to judge and I do not accept the right of other to judge me.  Forgiveness is more important than punishment.

I do not value human life above nature. 

Today I find myself thinking about the great benefits to the ecology from this lockdown.  But I do not want to live in a world where the freedom to travel is restricted. 

[King Nuts]

I do not value human life above nature. 

I pretty much concur with all of your post, apart from the above bit.

Nature, unfortunately for us, doesn't give a flying fuck about human life. Take your pants and socks off and walk around in nature for half an hour, and you'll realise this soon enough.

I respect nature (and we've got to look after the planet yadda yadda) but I don't like getting it on me.

[joe diddley]

Tony Benn and more recently Chris Williamson went from centre-left to hard left, but that may have been finger in the wind in the case of the latter.  Ditto that for most Labour MPs who fancied promotion/wanted to keep their seat probably

I know someone who's ex-forces, says when he signed up he was wide-eyed Queen and country type, but several tours overseas plus the rigours of war showed him how the world really was and now he's to the left of Stalin.

That's what happened to my dad after the second world war. He was a tough Scottish army NCO who drove through northern Europe in a tank but saw enough shit during WW2 and the aftermath to make him think a lot needed changing.

[hornyguylondon]

9. I don't really care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, it is none of my business.

All very admirable but I hope this won't affect contributions to homemoviestube.com 

[Ali Katt]

I try to think I listen to issues and form an opinion even though my politics is left wing. My parents are both left wing and were strong pillars of their communities even after my mums passing.

1. I'm not a fan of paying significant amounts of tax whilst corporations avoid it and get subsidised by the tax payer. I do not agree with inheritance taxes and do not think people should have to pay higher taxes at higher bands (I.e. 50% of their income).

2. I believe we should have a robust welfare state to help people who fall on bad times.

3. I believe every human being has rights and should have access to free healthcare and education.

4. I do not believe able bodied people should not work

5. I support the death penalty for rapists and paedos

6. I do not believe a single penny of tax payer money should be used to bail out companies who do not pay their correct share of taxes here and use tax havens.

7. I do not think we should have homeless people in one of the richest countries in the world.

8. I do not believe the govt should waste money chasing around people who use recreational drugs. However if they commit crimes to feed their habit, throw the book at them.

9. I don't really care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, it is none of my business.

10. I don't hate foreigners/immigrants/people different from me. I also treat people as individuals and do not blame large groups of people for the crimes of a minority.

11. I believe men and women should be paid equally when doing the same job.

12. Caring about those who are left behind is a strength not a weakness and the notion that people on the left of the politcal spectrum are bleeding hearts is just daft. Decent human beings should care about others.

13. War and conflict should be last resorts as bombs rarely work long term. Some of the best relationships we have these days have been as a result of development programmes and not bombs

14. I do not think the circumstances of your birth gives you special powers or privileges. If you are not ready to work and graft, the world will pass you by and I have little sympathy for people moaning about people taking their jobs.

15. I think a well functioning adult should have an open mind, listen  to arguments, assess them using facts (not opinions) and come to a conclusion.

16. I don't see why the public should build and provide infrastructure for rail, water and power companies and give these assets to corporations that capitalise the profits and socialise the losses. That is just bad business and I am surprised many "capitalists" have no issues with it. At the same time, these benefits are not passed on to the average user but shareholders. Other countries also benefit from our inability to manage our assets well.

17. I have no issues with Private Schools (Public Schools), went to them myself but I'm very concerned about the networks formed by the rich and powerful. These prevent regular people from having the same opportunities even if they have the same talents.

18. I also believe history plays a role in the society we have today. Kids from working class backgrounds and poorer backgrounds don't have access to the same opportunities and we need to bridge that gap or we will continue to have problems as a society.

19. I'm not selfish and believe we can all succeed together and society is better when everyone has an opportunity to be something.

20. Finally, I'm a great believer in Science

I agree with most of this.
1) I believe nobody should pay more than 20% tax with inheritance tax, tax on pensions and bedroom tax being scrapped.
2)I agree, but there should be limits currently someone is legally allowed to be unemployed for the rest of their lives and claim jobseekers allowance - there should be a cut-off point, maybe 2 years.
5)I would also add mass murder, child murder and terrorist bombings.
7) I agree. I have heard in Scotland they will rehouse people regardless of circumstances which seems like a good solution. However, the "professional beggars" i.e. people who beg and pretend to be homeless need fining and banning.
8)I half agree. Cannabis will be 100% legal within the next 10 years no doubt in my mind. I do think there should be restrictions and fines such as those that supply to under 18s, people that smoke cannabis in public places and people who smoke cannabis in the presence of children such as blowing smoke in a baby's face.
9)What if they are filming child porn?
11)They are. Men work longer hours and often prioritise work above other aspects like raising children. The gender pay gap is a myth.
16)Remember British Rail? Unfortunately our government is too incompetent. We have outsourced rubbish collection and there's still rubbish in the streets and overflowing bins.
17)Yes. There are scholarships, but they seem to be based more on box ticking so an Indian diplomat is more likely to go to Oxford uni than a working class boy.
18)I agree. We have a huge problems in schools with incompetent teachers and unruly children which prevents people from learning.
20)I agree to an extent, but science has become almost like a religion where it is becoming harder to dispute. The problem isn't with scientists, but rather people say on twitter who believe science to be absolute, it was science that the earth was considered flat at one point.

[Belgarion]

I agree with most of this.
1) I believe nobody should pay more than 20% tax with inheritance tax, tax on pensions and bedroom tax being scrapped.
2)I agree, but there should be limits currently someone is legally allowed to be unemployed for the rest of their lives and claim jobseekers allowance - there should be a cut-off point, maybe 2 years.
5)I would also add mass murder, child murder and terrorist bombings.
7) I agree. I have heard in Scotland they will rehouse people regardless of circumstances which seems like a good solution. However, the "professional beggars" i.e. people who beg and pretend to be homeless need fining and banning.
8)I half agree. Cannabis will be 100% legal within the next 10 years no doubt in my mind. I do think there should be restrictions and fines such as those that supply to under 18s, people that smoke cannabis in public places and people who smoke cannabis in the presence of children such as blowing smoke in a baby's face.
9)What if they are filming child porn?
11)They are. Men work longer hours and often prioritise work above other aspects like raising children. The gender pay gap is a myth.
16)Remember British Rail? Unfortunately our government is too incompetent. We have outsourced rubbish collection and there's still rubbish in the streets and overflowing bins.
17)Yes. There are scholarships, but they seem to be based more on box ticking so an Indian diplomat is more likely to go to Oxford uni than a working class boy.
18)I agree. We have a huge problems in schools with incompetent teachers and unruly children which prevents people from learning.
20)I agree to an extent, but science has become almost like a religion where it is becoming harder to dispute. The problem isn't with scientists, but rather people say on twitter who believe science to be absolute, it was science that the earth was considered flat at one point.

5) Yup, no issues with that, didn't put them as I assumed them as given

8) I would treat stuff like that using alcohol laws

9) Child Porn is against the law and that includes a minor

11) it isn't a myth

16) We are not getting value for money now and this isn't sustainable. We can learn from other nations and improve. Not every govt is useless

17) An Indian diplomat is going to pay more in fees but you are missing the point. People like Toby Young get into places at the expense of more talented kids. So we can bridge that gap and make the processes more transparent. That way, the diplomats and the Toby Youngs don't take the places of talented kids

20) The quest for balance in the media has contributed to this narrative. Even when science thought the earth was flat, people were still working on improving the science.

[Ali Katt]

5) Yup, no issues with that, didn't put them as I assumed them as given

8) I would treat stuff like that using alcohol laws

9) Child Porn is against the law and that includes a minor

11) it isn't a myth

16) We are not getting value for money now and this isn't sustainable. We can learn from other nations and improve. Not every govt is useless

17) An Indian diplomat is going to pay more in fees but you are missing the point. People like Toby Young get into places at the expense of more talented kids. So we can bridge that gap and make the processes more transparent. That way, the diplomats and the Toby Youngs don't take the places of talented kids

20) The quest for balance in the media has contributed to this narrative. Even when science thought the earth was flat, people were still working on improving the science.

Agree with most of this. With regards gender pay, it is illegal to pay less so we have rules in place.

With public transport in particular. I agree train fares especially are too expensive. I think it's down to a monopoly imagine if you had more lines and multiple companies competing then you would see offers which are much fairer rather than a few pounds off for booking a month in advance. I think there's a monopoly in other areas as well I think sky sports is too high for pubs.

[southcoastpunter]

. With regards gender pay, it is illegal to pay less so we have rules in place.

Like a lot of thinks it might be dependent upon your definition of the issue being discussed, in this case  "gender pay gap". There is little if any difference these days for men and women doing EXACTLY the same job - but the issue has widened to include "similar jobs" or "jobs of equal value" and even as a generalisation that overall, women receive less pay than men! And that is probably true but for so many reasons!

[Beamer]

I try to think I listen to issues and form an opinion even though my politics is left wing. My parents are both left wing and were strong pillars of their communities even after my mums passing.

1. I'm not a fan of paying significant amounts of tax whilst corporations avoid it and get subsidised by the tax payer. I do not agree with inheritance taxes and do not think people should have to pay higher taxes at higher bands (I.e. 50% of their income).
Agree
2. I believe we should have a robust welfare state to help people who fall on bad times. Agree

3. I believe every human being has rights and should have access to free healthcare and education. Agree but will take something like Covid19 to change establishment views

4. I do not believe able bodied people should not work definitely agree

5. I support the death penalty for rapists and paedos agreed

6. I do not believe a single penny of tax payer money should be used to bail out companies who do not pay their correct share of taxes here and use tax havens. definitely

7. I do not think we should have homeless people in one of the richest countries in the world.agreed

8. I do not believe the govt should waste money chasing around people who use recreational drugs. However if they commit crimes to feed their habit, throw the book at them. Not sure how you can differentiate

9. I don't really care what consenting adults do behind closed doors, it is none of my business. agreed

10. I don't hate foreigners/immigrants/people different from me. I also treat people as individuals and do not blame large groups of people for the crimes of a minority. agreed

11. I believe men and women should be paid equally when doing the same job. agreed

12. Caring about those who are left behind is a strength not a weakness and the notion that people on the left of the politcal spectrum are bleeding hearts is just daft. Decent human beings should care about others. problem is the ultra left have created a barrier to change otherwise they wouldn't have anything to campaign for

13. War and conflict should be last resorts as bombs rarely work long term. Some of the best relationships we have these days have been as a result of development programmes and not bombs  agreed but will take time

14. I do not think the circumstances of your birth gives you special powers or privileges. If you are not ready to work and graft, the world will pass you by and I have little sympathy for people moaning about people taking their jobs.agreed

15. I think a well functioning adult should have an open mind, listen  to arguments, assess them using facts (not opinions) and come to a conclusion. probably expecting too much

16. I don't see why the public should build and provide infrastructure for rail, water and power companies and give these assets to corporations that capitalise the profits and socialise the losses. That is just bad business and I am surprised many "capitalists" have no issues with it. At the same time, these benefits are not passed on to the average user but shareholders. Other countries also benefit from our inability to manage our assets well.we should nationalise them all and i have never voted "left" in my life

17. I have no issues with Private Schools (Public Schools), went to them myself but I'm very concerned about the networks formed by the rich and powerful. These prevent regular people from having the same opportunities even if they have the same talents. all should have the same management reporting

18. I also believe history plays a role in the society we have today. Kids from working class backgrounds and poorer backgrounds don't have access to the same opportunities and we need to bridge that gap or we will continue to have problems as a society. will take years and probably a pipe dream

19. I'm not selfish and believe we can all succeed together and society is better when everyone has an opportunity to be something. utopia !!

20. Finally, I'm a great believer in Science

thankfully we have Prof Chris

[King Nuts]

Agree with most of this. With regards gender pay, it is illegal to pay less so we have rules in place.

With public transport in particular. I agree train fares especially are too expensive. I think it's down to a monopoly imagine if you had more lines and multiple companies competing then you would see offers which are much fairer rather than a few pounds off for booking a month in advance. I think there's a monopoly in other areas as well I think sky sports is too high for pubs.

It's virtually impossible to get true competition on the railways. There are some routes where you have a choice of train company. London to Birmingham, Southampton to London and Newcastle/Sunderland to London are the only ones I am aware of.

As regards fares, they're structured to make it cheap for off peak leisure travellers and expensive for commuters and business types. I agree it's mostly a nonsense, and when a fare cost a tenner one day and sixty quid the next, you have to wonder where true value lies.

[Ali Katt]

It's virtually impossible to get true competition on the railways. There are some routes where you have a choice of train company. London to Birmingham, Southampton to London and Newcastle/Sunderland to London are the only ones I am aware of.

As regards fares, they're structured to make it cheap for off peak leisure travellers and expensive for commuters and business types. I agree it's mostly a nonsense, and when a fare cost a tenner one day and sixty quid the next, you have to wonder where true value lies.

It's a pipe dream or a tube dream, but having say every train company on the London route would obviously require extra tracks, but you would either get a fixed price or really competitive deals. If you go to the cinema for example tickets are pretty similar prices or bus companies running the same route in most cities have a fixed day price or near enough the same price. That said the 20p ticket in September was a great deal, just no trains to Manchester otherwise I would have seen a big titted escort.