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Author Topic: Uh Oh - Tomorrow's Independent  (Read 5302 times)


SirFrank

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I couldn't give a flying fuck about twitter or Facebook. No wonder the country is going to fucking shit

Offline howardtom1990

it's not about twitter...

it's the front of tomorrow's Independent newspaper banging on about punting equating to 'violence against women'.

SirFrank

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My point is I fucking hate twitter so much I'd rather stick fucking pins in my eyes than even check the link. I'm not having a go at you by the way I just FUCKING HATE twitter. What a complete load of fucking shit. Filled up with vacuous celebrities who don't have an unpublished thought.

If you can be bothered to give me the gist of it or copy and paste I'll take a read but hell will freeze over before I read anything of twitter. Did I tell you I hate it? Even talking about it makes me want to puke
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:27:50 pm by SirFrank »

Festisio

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I will read the article tomorrow to see what it's about - hopefully nothing more than some think-tank bollocks or idle speculation from one upstart MP.

I don't see how they can target punters without making prossying illegal.

They've already made laws to handle solliciting and curb-crawling - but how can they come after the more traditional punting that we do without also going after prossies.

vorian

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I don't want to dismiss the issue as I appreciate that everyone punts differently.  I can't see how the law could ever be enforced without a massive increase in police resources.  For example I drove to a well to do middle class housing estate today,  entered a very nice house where there was just one wg gave her the money had a great time then I left and went home happy. No fuss, no problem.  So unless the police were bugging the house I can't see how either one of us could ever be charged as their is no proof anything happend.  :unknown:

LockCock+TwoSmokinPussies

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I wouldn't take much notice, MP's say this all the time to make it look like they're actually doing something, more than likely he's been prompted by people in his constituency to come out with this, it'll be forgotten about in a couple of days. Policing and enforcing the laws in this kind of business would take a LOT of many hours anyway and what with the police cuts and all that would be impossible.

Offline Corus Boy


My point is I fucking hate twitter so much I'd rather stick fucking pins in my eyes than even check the link. I'm not having a go at you by the way I just FUCKING HATE twitter. What a complete load of fucking shit. Filled up with vacuous celebrities who don't have an unpublished thought.

If you can be bothered to give me the gist of it or copy and paste I'll take a read but hell will freeze over before I read anything of twitter. Did I tell you I hate it? Even talking about it makes me want to puke


Here you go Frank, a link directly to the article;

External Link/Members Only

k

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Let's say that the legislators get their way in the future.  Will this mean that the police will have the ability to trawl through historical events that were legal at the time, and haul men in on the basis that they will now be treated as suspects, on the basis that leopards don't change their spots that easily?

Offline Horizontal pleasures

I don't want to dismiss the issue as I appreciate that everyone punts differently.  I can't see how the law could ever be enforced without a massive increase in police resources.  For example I drove to a well to do middle class housing estate today,  entered a very nice house where there was just one wg gave her the money had a great time then I left and went home happy. No fuss, no problem.  So unless the police were bugging the house I can't see how either one of us could ever be charged as their is no proof anything happend.  :unknown:

Just what we need: a well to do middle class housing estate today,
I look forward to reading your review.

Barry Shipton

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Dangerous time just before and after an election - stupid legislation gets rushed through as a crowd pleaser.

This is one issue where members on here an Saafe can be in total agreement - stupidest thing ever, doesn't stop it (you're not telling me there are no WGs in the US and Scandinavia) just drives it further underground and makes it more dangerous for both sides.

Never mind writing about an old boiler pretending to be 21 and her pimp waiting to rob you, you could have six hairy arsed coppers behind the door and the prospect of no family or job once convicted! Great vote winner!

Online Strawberry

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Let's say that the legislators get their way in the future.  Will this mean that the police will have the ability to trawl through historical events that were legal at the time, and haul men in on the basis that they will now be treated as suspects, on the basis that leopards don't change their spots that easily?

I very much doubt they'll go trailing round chasing up men who've paid for sex in the past, it would be a huge waste of resources and cause a lot of issues - but like saying oh let's go round up everyone who's ever possessed drugs. Not going to happen. The police are often aware of most drug dealers, stolen goods traders that sort of thing. They just don't have the resources nor interest.

In the first ten years of the swedish model there were just under 3500 convictions according to an article I read at the weekend. That's approximately one per day.

I am offended by the suggesting that as a prostitute I become an automatic victim and also offended for (men) clients who are being told they are all committing an act of violence. It implies I am complicit and I'd never be complicit in anyone trying to hurt me.

If you have time to do some googling there's some interesting stuff from both sides about the Swedish model, how it's seen to have worked for those supporting it, how it's not worked for some sex workers.

Just had a glance at the Indie article and thank goodness they balanced the article out.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:45:27 am by Strawberry »

Offline Thepacifist

I see Mps now want to ban the purchasing of sex, ie: blame the punters and let the girls go free. If they scare off the men, then they scare off the custom for the women.

Offline J_H

Even by the asinine standards of British (i.e. Enlgand and Wales plus Scotland) Law this seems to violate a very obvious principle: the Independent implies that the proposal would make it illegal to buy sex (punter), but not illegal for someone (WG) to freely and openly entice me to break that law?
By this logic I could openly exhort you to commit murder (gays, blacks, punters, anybody I'm prejudiced against) but not be breaking the law.
In a word, p1sh!

Online Strawberry

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Ah but as 'victims' of demand we don't know what's good for us. :wackogirl:

Offline myothernameis

I see Mps now want to ban the purchasing of sex, ie: blame the punters and let the girls go free. If they scare off the men, then they scare off the custom for the women.

MPs want to ban the purchase of sex, but I bet some of them will still want to buy sex for them selfs; will they get arrested not likely

Maybe the prostitutes should release the mps names, especially if there going to vote with there gov and party

Offline Corus Boy

I'm sure that law would infringe my Human Rights  :D

Offline myothernameis

Even by the asinine standards of British (i.e. Enlgand and Wales plus Scotland) Law this seems to violate a very obvious principle: the Independent implies that the proposal would make it illegal to buy sex (punter), but not illegal for someone (WG) to freely and openly entice me to break that law?
By this logic I could openly exhort you to commit murder (gays, blacks, punters, anybody I'm prejudiced against) but not be breaking the law.
In a word, p1sh!

If it became law, how do the girls get round it, I would see them no longer offering sexual services, but providing an escort for the day; your now paying for her time

vorian

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If it became law, how do the girls get round it, I would see them no longer offering sexual services, but providing an escort for the day; your now paying for her time

And behind closed doors who knows what's going on. Silly system like the US where the prossies have to do things like ask the punter for ID to make sure they are not being entrapped by the police. If this law does come in nothing will change apart from more red tape. Which I suppose is what a Government do best.

Offline CBPaul

If it became law, how do the girls get round it, I would see them no longer offering sexual services, but providing an escort for the day; your now paying for her time

Effectively what many do now. Plenty of indie websites have the same disclaimer about paying for time and anything else that happens is coincidental.

Offline CBPaul

Oh dear, here we go again. You can tell we'll have a general election next year, another load of policies that nobody is going to criticize as doing so would mean condoning the activities. 

Yet again we can see that these people really do not have a clue, yet again we are presented with the usual polarised view of prostitution being trafficked Europeans and strung out street girls, the latter making entire neighbourhoods no-go areas when you include the kerb crawlers, pimps and drug dealers. I'm surprised that they don't mention grooming.

Some of these things should be stamped out but even if the resources were committed to doing so they wouldn't know what to do with them.

Jason

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Laws are made in order to protect each citizen’s rights against third parties violating them. As such in many cases morality and laws go hand in hand. However laws and morality should part ways when the action returns to the participant(s) and is the result of personal choice or mutual consent between participants. In such cases what is moral is subjective to the individual. For some people eating meat is immoral, for others anal sex is immoral, for others being homo or bi-sexual is immoral, for others having a fetish is immoral, for others abortion is immoral, for others committing suicide is immoral, for others being prostitute is immoral, for others punting is immoral, etc, etc.

There are already laws against coerced prostitution and trafficking which protect women from exploitation by third parties. Making punting illegal has nothing to do with women protection but with imposing individual morality beliefs to the lives of others. Much like vegetarians attempting to make all of us vegetarians by law…
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 02:16:53 pm by Jason »

jcdmj12

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Drugs have been illegal for a long time with much tougher penalties, and that's never stopped anyone I know.

Sweden is a totalarian socialist state. Socialists love taking your money off you and using it to tell you what you should and shouldn't be doing.    I doubt the Tories and Lib dems would vote this one through.  Labour happily would though.  Hopefully they won't get a chance to in 2015.

willbred

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If ...god help us, any looney party in this country passed such a law, surely the "Dallas Buyers Club" rules could be invoked...you pay £100, whatever, for a ticket and get sex for free

It's never gonna happen...where would MP's get sex...at home???????

vorian

  • Guest
Drugs have been illegal for a long time with much tougher penalties, and that's never stopped anyone I know.

Sweden is a totalarian socialist state. Socialists love taking your money off you and using it to tell you what you should and shouldn't be doing.    I doubt the Tories and Lib dems would vote this one through.  Labour happily would though.  Hopefully they won't get a chance to in 2015.

I think they would all vote for it, a yes vote is an easy winner with the media and the general public, doesn't matter what the truth is, the sex industry does not have a real voice as far a lobbying goes. It will be just another law on the books without the desire or resources to enforce it in reality.

jcdmj12

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I think they would all vote for it, a yes vote is an easy winner with the media and the general public, doesn't matter what the truth is, the sex industry does not have a real voice as far a lobbying goes. It will be just another law on the books without the desire or resources to enforce it in reality.

Possibly, possibly not. If you look at the voting history, Tories have no great will to deal with this.  They'd rather use parliamentary time to privatise as much as possible.    :D The last changes were brought in by the Harman et al in the Labour   government, and she'd love to finish the job if she gets into power again.

As you say though, laws are thankfully useless without enforcement.  Sweden has actually got their police enforcing the law, certainly where street prostitution is involved.  Meanwhile, they have the highest rape incidence in Europe, but they're not doing much about that because that would involve getting to grips with their "Muslim problem".   

Their policy seems to be penalising Swedish men for 'sexually exploiting' immigrant women, but doing nothing about immigrant men raping Swedish women and children.  :wacko:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 04:33:50 pm by jcdmj12 »

Offline YouOnlyLiveOnce

In the recent EU vote on this, it was encouraging to see that even though Honeyball's resolution passed, British MEP's voted 2 to 1 against it (7 for, 15 against - though there were a lot of abstentions).

So I don't see it happening here anytime soon.

vorian

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In the recent EU vote on this, it was encouraging to see that even though Honeyball's resolution passed, British MEP's voted 2 to 1 against it (7 for, 15 against - though there were a lot of abstentions).

So I don't see it happening here anytime soon.

Wonder what the party breakdown was, haven't we got a BNP and a UKIP MEP.  :unknown:

Offline J_H

Ah but as 'victims' of demand we don't know what's good for us. :wackogirl:
Ha ha! I'd like to be victimised to the tune of £100 an hour (or whatever the going rate is!).

Offline Taggart

I'm not happy that the story drags in the usual old and well-worn cliches - drugs, trafficking and streetwalkers.

Neither does it cover the fact that many escorts make a good living through being a sex worker - by choice.  Seems to run in parallel with what that bitch McTaggart was always demanding. It's the usual political sledgehammer being used to crack a small nut, in this case as a crude tool to tackle street prostitution, and probably parlour use too. Yet how can it deal with hotel and apartment escorting activities?

As for the future if it ever became law, given the emerging information about how GCHQ and others have been spying and intercepting emails, what's to stop monitoring of sites like this and AW, then tracing users via IP addresses? We've already the situation where if you change ISP provider, you have to opt in for 18+ services.

Will it in the future be illegal to make arrangements to 'meet' someone who may be an accountant, therapist or whatever, and the pair of you just decide to have sex?  Will hotels vet clients more carefully?

Too much Big Brother potential here.  The real concern is that the amount of polictical time and effort could well be disproportionate to the extent of the problem, which as we know, has never been as large and widespread as they'd have has us believe. What it does do is distract us from issues that have a far greater priority.



jcdmj12

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As with all these things, more legislation certainly isn't what's required. Street Prostitution is already illegal for buyers, and it still goes on.

Looking through the Voting record, virtually no UK MEPs voted for it, all of those were Lab or Lib Dem. Anyway, I can't see Cameron's mates/backers in the City being too chuffed if he allows one of their favourite pastimes to be outlawed.   :D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:17:29 pm by jcdmj12 »

SirFrank

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Here you go Frank, a link directly to the article;

External Link/Members Only

Thanks mate duly read. Someone in work said to me last week 'it's all over Facebook'. I can't recall what it was now but I still remember my response - I said how fucking old are you? 13?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 07:26:39 pm by SirFrank »

vorian

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I'm not happy that the story drags in the usual old and well-worn cliches - drugs, trafficking and streetwalkers.

Neither does it cover the fact that many escorts make a good living through being a sex worker - by choice.  Seems to run in parallel with what that bitch McTaggart was always demanding. It's the usual political sledgehammer being used to crack a small nut, in this case as a crude tool to tackle street prostitution, and probably parlour use too. Yet how can it deal with hotel and apartment escorting activities?

As for the future if it ever became law, given the emerging information about how GCHQ and others have been spying and intercepting emails, what's to stop monitoring of sites like this and AW, then tracing users via IP addresses? We've already the situation where if you change ISP provider, you have to opt in for 18+ services.

Will it in the future be illegal to make arrangements to 'meet' someone who may be an accountant, therapist or whatever, and the pair of you just decide to have sex?  Will hotels vet clients more carefully?

Too much Big Brother potential here.  The real concern is that the amount of political time and effort could well be disproportionate to the extent of the problem, which as we know, has never been as large and widespread as they'd have has us believe. What it does do is distract us from issues that have a far greater priority.

I understand where your coming from, but I can't see time and resources being spent on trapping the indie punter. Yes they will and have focused on the street walker it is visible and in most peoples ignorant believe the face of prostitution in the UK. They might even go after the parlours more than they do currently (Although the law allows this to a degree already) again because the average voter may have heard about brothels. However the Indie scene is virtually unknown to Joe and Jane Blogs, how many people in the modern age know what their neighbours do, how many care, sad in some ways.

Hence politically nothing would be gained by going after this type of prossie or punter. The only area they might and I do mean might focus on is the party scene as there are relatively few country wide and a coordinated approach would make a difference, the headlines would be titillating enough for the red tops as well.

Offline YouOnlyLiveOnce


vorian

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External Link/Members Only

I see Nic Griffin and Nigel Farage both abstained, don't rock the boat lads, you need all those floating voters.

Twats  :crazy:

Offline Daffodil

As with all these things, more legislation certainly isn't what's required. Street Prostitution is already illegal for buyers, and it still goes on.

Looking through the Voting record, virtually no UK MEPs voted for it, all of those were Lab or Lib Dem. Anyway, I can't see Cameron's mates/backers in the City being too chuffed if he allows one of their favourite pastimes to be outlawed.   :D

I've never liked this sort of argument. For certain things, drugs being a prime example, people say that because something still goes on it proves the law/legislation doesn't work.

Well murder still happens, does that mean there's no point having a law that punishes murderers?
Rape still happens, should we stop punishing rapists?

Yes, street prostitution still exists, but I believe at a much lower rate than it did before legislation. Now there are other reasons for that (advent of the internet and adultwork for example), but I believe legislation against it and improved methods of detection have played a large role.

k

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It is my view that there is a large element of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) about the elements of English Law which the average citizen is ignorant of, usually because they are afraid to ask (asking something, in their minds means they are planning to do something which they feel would act as a tip-off of illegal activity).  The internet and forums such as this have improved that understanding.  I'm talking here about topics that often crop up on UKP, for example, "am I breaking the law if I pay a woman for sex?"  It is not in the best interests of lawyers to give straight answers to questions such as this, and the police would prefer there to be FUD rather than draw a line and say: this side of the line you are within the law, that side you are not.  By reason of FUD, people will shy away from things that are legal, and in doing so this makes the police' job easier.

JB1969

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External Link/Members Only

At the bottom of the page...

Rhoda grant tried to put forward the same proposal in Holyrood last year it did not even enter the building. 

Rochdull lad

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Possibly, possibly not. If you look at the voting history, Tories have no great will to deal with this.  They'd rather use parliamentary time to privatise as much as possible.    :D The last changes were brought in by the Harman et al in the Labour   government, and she'd love to finish the job if she gets into power again.


She might love to finish the job; but will she get the chance?

I doubt it for two reasons: they stubborn way she reacted to the link between the NCCL & the PIE nearly 40 years ago means that, while Ed Miliband may feel he has to say supportive stuff now, her influence in the Labour Party will surely diminish; and lots of commentators are predicting another coalition after next year's General Election.  If Labour are the largest party in such a coalition, they'll have to drop some of their policies and I think this would be one of them.

jcdmj12

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I've never liked this sort of argument. For certain things, drugs being a prime example, people say that because something still goes on it proves the law/legislation doesn't work.

Well murder still happens, does that mean there's no point having a law that punishes murderers?
Rape still happens, should we stop punishing rapists?

Yes, street prostitution still exists, but I believe at a much lower rate than it did before legislation. Now there are other reasons for that (advent of the internet and adultwork for example), but I believe legislation against it and improved methods of detection have played a large role.

That wasn't really my point... I was more pointing out that they don't really enforce the laws they do have with much vigor.  For example, if they really wanted to get rid of RLDs totally, they could put constant heavey police patrols on all of them. Of course, they don't, because that would cost a fortune and they have other things to do with their resources.

To answer what you've written though, I think that's an overly simplistic response.   Any law is an instrument to try to create the society that those in power want to see.    Like any intervention, it will have side effects and will be more or less effective in achieving its intended goal.

To take your example of the law around crimes of violence.  I don't think you'd find much dissent that a society where people aren't at liberty to attack one other is a good thing.  There also aren't many side-effects it outlawing murder.  Outlawing it doesn't create a black market, or encourage more killing.

Drugs, on the other hand, are a very different matter.  Most people who take illegal drugs are willing participants.  Banning them creates a black market, encourages criminality and increases harm.  The law isn't particularly effective in stopping their supply, so the argument that outlawing them is effective in protecting people is a weak one.   It's become increasingly clear that those who argue for continued prohibition do so on moral grounds, dressed up in the clothes of harm reduction.

Those who are arguing for a ban on prostitution are doing the same. They want to live in a society where it's illegal, and they're making all sorts of 'protecting the helpless' excuses to cover that fact up.  That's why rational counter argument is ineffective.   They're like religious zealots. They see in black and white, and can't entertain the idea that somebody may voluntarily sell sex for money.



« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 02:11:35 pm by jcdmj12 »