How Many More Wind Farms do we Need?

[lostandfound]

You made a generic statement that heavy industry cannot run on electricity, to which Davie replied with the example of aluminium.  It is you who keeps going on about steel.

Yes - I made that general statement, and in general terms I believe it to be true. It is often given as an example of the benefits of a hydrogen economy.

And I gave the example of Thyssen Krupp switching to hydrogen as a direct replacement for coal in steel production.

So I've been going on about steel, and in reply Davie has been going on about aluminium.

[petermisc]

Current demand 33.1GW and wind producing 10.74GW which is almost a third of the demand, what a difference a day makes 

As I pointed out, there are already many days when our whole load is obtained from non-carbon sources.  Hydro, solar, etc. plus the interconnects - not just wind.  I see no point whatsoever in building more and more wind farms just to replace the supply from these other green energy sources.

[daviemac]

Not to rain on Nissan's parade and exciting plans for a new lithium battery, but the type of battery used in pacemakers at the mo is ... lithium?!

It's exciting that they plan to pilot the tech in 2024 and product launch in 2028 - but it sounds kind of similar to Quantumscape, except QS already has a pilot plant in operation and hopes to go into production in 2024 / 25

Bit of a difference between a pacemaker and a car. If they can develop a lithium battery suitable for use in a car it would be a game changer for how long they would last.

Just curious do you know how long pacemaker batteries last. 

[lillythesavage]

Bit of a difference between a pacemaker and a car. If they can develop a lithium battery suitable for use in a car it would be a game changer for how long they would last.

Just curious do you know how long pacemaker batteries last.

Just asked my mate, his is checked twice a year, but has been in 6 years, and expected another 4 or 5 years. 

[lostandfound]

So
As I pointed out, there are already many days when our whole load is obtained from non-carbon sources.  Hydro, solar, etc. plus the interconnects - not just wind.  I see no point whatsoever in building more and more wind farms just to replace the supply from these other green energy sources.

In general terms, the extra wind power is not to replace other renewables but rather to replace gas, and to take advantage of 40% of Europe's wind energy being within UK territory, building on the UK's already world leading expertise in wind power.

In general terms ( ) the UK runs a balance of payments deficit and UK energy imports are around 50% larger than that overall deficit.

So becoming an energy exporter will cancel that balance of payments deficit, and turn it into a surplus.

[petermisc]

The OP complained that there is not effective storage for electrical energy from wind farms. Watts also alleges that a lot of batteries are needed. I replied, as I have before on similar threads - that the solution is to store the energy as hydrogen. From the point of view of energy storage hydrogen is viable in heavy industry in many cases where electrical energy stored in batteries is not. And hydrogen can also directly replace fossil fuels.

I had already mentioned hydrogen in my OP, with the comment that doubling capacity from diddly-squat to double diddly-squat is not going to help much.  Roughly speaking, if wind power were to make up a significant proportion of our load, without fossil or nuclear backup, we would need hydrogen to be able to supply the same load for a significant period - at least a week. Realistically, that is never going to happen.  And the government has recognised that, by going for nuclear as the main backup source.  Hydrogen is never going to be more than a bit-part player.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

On a smaller scale power source and relevant in a way, I was watching CBS new a couple of nights ago 

Tokyo — Nissan is working with NASA on a new type of battery for electric vehicles that promises to charge more quickly and be lighter yet safe, the Japanese automaker said Friday.
    The all-solid-state battery will replace the lithium-ion battery now in use for a 2028 product launch and a pilot plant launch in 2024, according to Nissan.
     The battery would be stable enough to be used in pacemakers, Nissan said. When finished, it will be about half the size of the current battery and fully charge in 15 minutes instead of a few hours.

                  For more information~ External Link/Members Only

Anyone asked if the distribution grid could cope with that amount of POWER to be delivered in such a short time;?..

It can't, it relies on Intermittent or diversity supply!.

Let me explain that. Take sunday lunchtime, most everyones cooker is on BUT they arent all pulling power at the same instant, some will be warmed up and just turning the oven on for a short time in order to maintain the tempereture, others will still be warming up the chances of them all pulling power at the same instant is neglible. Saw this in practie a while ago was with a loal UK power nets bloke on a large housing estate around 1 PM looking at the amp meters in the sub-station was very surprised to find the average power per phase , three of them, was just 70 Amps!

They were fused ay 300 amps each, the fuses will cope with short duration overloads.

Now your 15 min battery put too many of them on demand pulling the power they require at the same instant;?...

Plus the existing domestic load..... 

[lostandfound]

I had already mentioned hydrogen in my OP, with the comment that doubling capacity from diddly-squat to double diddly-squat is not going to help much.  Roughly speaking, if wind power were to make up a significant proportion of our load, without fossil or nuclear backup, we would need hydrogen to be able to supply the same load for a significant period - at least a week. Realistically, that is never going to happen.  And the government has recognised that, by going for nuclear as the main backup source.  Hydrogen is never going to be more than a bit-part player.

I think I posted links earlier to two large hydrogen projects in Glasgow, and the North East.

Still small beer compared to overall demand for power. But hydrogen electrolysers and fuel cells are at the very beginning of their cost reduction curve.

Hydrogen is at the centre of huge plans for energy across the world, and given, as I said UK massive wind energy resource, and world class skills, it's an open goal waiting for the UK.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Current demand 33.1GW and wind producing 10.74GW which is almost a third of the demand, what a difference a day makes 

External Link/Members Only

You may not remember a while ago pre Pandemic that the peak demand was around 50 to 55 GW its only lower as we arent as busy as what we once were pandemic times etc!.

Yes the wind is very fickle, thats why its a "She" isnt it;).

"Shes a blowin up a gale Captain"...

[daviemac]

Just asked my mate, his is checked twice a year, but has been in 6 years, and expected another 4 or 5 years. 

Mine's only checked once a year, though they did miss it one year due to covid. When last checked it has been in 7 years and expect another 6 so 13 years in total. If they can upscale that sort of reliability into cars then it's going to massively increase the range between charges.

Obviously the load on a pacemaker is nothing compared to a car but the more the range can be increased the better.

Just another plus point for the NHS, if I have any concerns at all about my pacemaker I have the direct number for the Cardiac Rhythm Management Unit and if need be they would get me in same day which they have done twice in the past.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Mine's only checked once a year, though they did miss it one year due to covid. When last checked it has been in 7 years and expect another 6 so 13 years in total. If they can upscale that sort of reliability into cars then it's going to massively increase the range between charges.

Obviously the load on a pacemaker is nothing compared to a car but the more the range can be increased the better.

Just another plus point for the NHS, if I have any concerns at all about my pacemaker I have the direct number for the Cardiac Rhythm Management Unit and if need be they would get me in same day which they have done twice in the past.

Umm .. pardon the ask are you ever worried that the old ticker might give up the ghost on an exceptionally good demanding punt?..

[lillythesavage]

Mine's only checked once a year, though they did miss it one year due to covid. When last checked it has been in 7 years and expect another 6 so 13 years in total. If they can upscale that sort of reliability into cars then it's going to massively increase the range between charges.

Obviously the load on a pacemaker is nothing compared to a car but the more the range can be increased the better.

Just another plus point for the NHS, if I have any concerns at all about my pacemaker I have the direct number for the Cardiac Rhythm Management Unit and if need be they would get me in same day which they have done twice in the past.

Since the pandemic it went from yearly in person to twice yearly remotely, he has a gadget and has to be in bed at a certain time for them to check it, so he told me.

[daviemac]

Umm .. pardon the ask are you ever worried that the old ticker might give up the ghost on an exceptionally good demanding punt?..

No not at all, never felt fitter to be honest, well I say that I mean as fit as I can be having COPD as well. As it is I run out of breath before there's any risk to my heart, which is why my punts are more of a gently GFE than a full on shagging for ages. Anyway nowt wrong with cowgirl for the penetration part.   

[daviemac]

Since the pandemic it went from yearly in person to twice yearly remotely, he has a gadget and has to be in bed at a certain time for them to check it, so he told me.

When I go it's connected to a laptop by bluetooth and they run various tests to make sure it's working correctly. It makes me feel very strange and dizzy while they're testing it which I suppose shows the difference it actually makes.

Haven't heard of them doing it remotely from home, I did think of asking if there was an app i could use to up it a bit to give me more energy while punting but thought I'd better not. 

[lillythesavage]

When I go it's connected to a laptop by bluetooth and they run various tests to make sure it's working correctly. It makes me feel very strange and dizzy while they're testing it which I suppose shows the difference it actually makes.

Haven't heard of them doing it remotely from home, I did think of asking if there was an app i could use to up it a bit to give me more energy while punting but thought I'd better not. 

I am sure car gurus could give you a re map  .

If they do it by bluetooth surely they could do yours at home?  Only a matter of getting the signal to the right place surely.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I am sure car gurus could give you a re map  .

If they do it by bluetooth surely they could do yours at home?  Only a matter of getting the signal to the right place surely.

Sod that!, suppose the DATA gets corupted and or you loose the line connection?, and it gets stuck on a couple of hundred beats per min?.

Best done under clinical conditions:)

[lillythesavage]

Sod that!, suppose the DATA gets corupted and or you loose the line connection?, and it gets stuck on a couple of hundred beats per min?.

Best done under clinical conditions:)

It was tongue in cheek 

[daviemac]

I am sure car gurus could give you a re map  .

If they do it by bluetooth surely they could do yours at home?  Only a matter of getting the signal to the right place surely.

They quite possibly could but to be honest getting it checked in hospital is no hardship, it's yet another example of the faultless service I've had from the NHS. The hospital is only 2 miles from my house and the first 20 minutes parking is free and more often than not I'm back in the carpark all sorted before I have to pay. 

[lillythesavage]

They quite possibly could but to be honest getting it checked in hospital is no hardship, it's yet another example of the faultless service I've had from the NHS. The hospital is only 2 miles from my house and the first 20 minutes parking is free and more often than not I'm back in the carpark all sorted before I have to pay.

Yep, they are not given enough credit, nobody cares until they perceive they are getting bad service, a good GP makes all the difference though. Often the poor service starts from there.

[daviemac]

Yep, they are not given enough credit, nobody cares until they perceive they are getting bad service, a good GP makes all the difference though. Often the poor service starts from there.

have to say I'm very lucky with my GP practice as well. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the NHS 111 call handler recognising the vague description of my symptoms as something serious, she had paramedics on my doorstep in 10 minutes and 30 minutes after that I was lying in the high dependency ward of the heart department. 

[lillythesavage]

have to say I'm very lucky with my GP practice as well. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the NHS 111 call handler recognising the vague description of my symptoms as something serious, she had paramedics on my doorstep in 10 minutes and 30 minutes after that I was lying in the high dependency ward of the heart department.

Never had anything that bad thankfully, but niggling things only getting sorted by changing GP. If you get a good one and do not sit on your arse waiting for something to happen the NHS works very well. You just have to push sometimes or you go on a list and get forgotten 

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Bit back on track the wind is close on 13 GW now!

[Gordon Bennett]

It irks me that despite having a vast offshore windfarm blighting my seaview, our area has a comparatively high standing charge in our bills. Far higher than those NIMBY cunts in Surrey who object to a single pylon or cable within 50 miles of their gaff.
It seems to me that these standing charges ought to reduce significantly in any region that's embracing the new infrastructure that's needed to address the nation's future energy needs. Conversely, regions that resist the infrastructure (but still want to suck in the energy produced elsewhere) should get stung with a punitive standing charge.

BBC News - Big regional divide on some energy bill charges
External Link/Members Only

[GingerNuts]

It irks me that despite having a vast offshore windfarm blighting my seaview, our area has a comparatively high standing charge in our bills. Far higher than those NIMBY cunts in Surrey who object to a single pylon or cable within 50 miles of their gaff.
It seems to me that these standing charges ought to reduce significantly in any region that's embracing the new infrastructure that's needed to address the nation's future energy needs. Conversely, regions that resist the infrastructure (but still want to suck in the energy produced elsewhere) should get stung with a punitive standing charge.

BBC News - Big regional divide on some energy bill charges
External Link/Members Only

You're repeating yourself and it's still not a new idea.

One thing that struck me during ongoing hoo-ha about rocketing energy prices was how the Standing Charge element of our bills varies across the UK.

This makes me think that going forwards it would be possible to "reward" regions or communities that embrace say, windfarms or fracking with a lower standing charge. Conversely, NIMBY-minded areas that object to a single pylon anywhere within their vision should be hammered via the standing charge.

Not a new idea. It's already happening in some areas and expansion is being considered.

External Link/Members Only

[chrishornx]

Erm - I was talking only about steel production, it was you who introduced aluminium production by comparison!

erm no you were not talking only about steel production