Is punting safe in 2015?

[pervlens]

It would be a great shame if I can't some of the girls I've got to know over the last few months, I'm still fairly new to the world of punting, only starting in June last year.

I've been reading some of the coverage over the Northern Island and wider in the ROI. As well as the legislation being put through our own parliament this year (modern slavery bill) all aimed at criminalising paying for sex.

Do you think 2015 could be the year that will make it illegal? Would it stop you?

[west8]

Do you think 2015 could be the year that will make it illegal?
Would it stop you?

1. No. Illegal or not is irrelevant anyway. It will never be stopped.
2. No.

[pervlens]

That is my feeling on it too.

I meant to add to my original post a link to the Northern Ireland news (External Link/Members Only) and point out in NI the penalty could be up to one year in prison.

[iPad3]

The sad fact, in my veiw, is making it illegal will

A - make no difference

B - simply drive it underground making the whole thing riskier for girls and punters alike.

Why on earth the fuckwits than run this country can't see the Aussies have it cracked is beyond me, furthermore think of the revenue boost the economy would get if the tax thing was sorted out!!

[smiths]

It would be a great shame if I can't some of the girls I've got to know over the last few months, I'm still fairly new to the world of punting, only starting in June last year.

I've been reading some of the coverage over the Northern Island and wider in the ROI. As well as the legislation being put through our own parliament this year (modern slavery bill) all aimed at criminalising paying for sex.

Do you think 2015 could be the year that will make it illegal? Would it stop you?

Whatever 2015 wont be the year as it takes time and support to get such a bill through. IMO only if Labour with Harriet Harridan get an overall majority would punting become illegal IF she can garner enough support.

It might stop me punting in brothels, it wont as I view it at present stop me punting with Indies. In the news today they were talking about ALL police forces having reduced budgets, to catch punters punting with Indies the police would need GREATLY increased budgets. So the police if the top cops in any given area agree could target brothels very easily but its very highly unlikely in my view that they would be interested in Indies punters.

Its also an absolute fact prostitution cannot be stopped, both brothels and the street scene, already wholly illegal proves that. As has been mentioned making it illegal would simply drive it further underground making it more dangerous for WGs and punters. That's the same WGs Harridan and her ilk purport to want to help, well it wont help them at all.

[cueball]

I don't think there will be any change in the law, it's impossible to police anyway.

You already see in aw ads that you're paying for her time, anything else that happens is between consenting adults.

The above statement will be a lot more widespread if there is a change in the law.

Stupid politicians trying to gain votes on subjects they have no intention of doing anything about, ring a bell?

[Steely Dan]

Agree.

But still very very bad.  What is the number? Let's say one in 50 of them has a screw loose.  You behave perfectly, but after the punt, instead of screaming at you, she calls the police and reports you.  The draft law specifically mentions she is not an accessory so she is not risking anything.  Her name will probably be kept secret.  So even lazy plod will at least have to try to find you.  She hands Ms Plod a photo of you (she has a screw loose, but knows how to work a hidden cam.)  Yikes, she and Sergai cant find you from that, but the old Bill can.  Knock on the door...

(and brothels are not wholly illegal.  The punter is not guilty of anything right now.)

And forget about outcalls.

[Malvolio]

I can't see any party trying to force this one through Parliament - there are more important things for the politicians to be worrying about.

However, if somehow being a punter was made illegal, I'd take a break from UK punting for six months to see how the dust settles - and book in a few punting trips to Germany.  As others have said, the police don't have the resources or the will to stop street prostitution / brothels at the moment, so how would they be able to police punters turning up to indies?

[smiths]

Agree.

But still very very bad.  What is the number? Let's say one in 50 of them has a screw loose.  You behave perfectly, but after the punt, instead of screaming at you, she calls the police and reports you.  The draft law specifically mentions she is not an accessory so she is not risking anything.  Her name will probably be kept secret.  So even lazy plod will at least have to try to find you.  She hands Ms Plod a photo of you (she has a screw loose, but knows how to work a hidden cam.)  Yikes, she and Sergai cant find you from that, but the old Bill can.  Knock on the door...

(and brothels are not wholly illegal.  The punter is not guilty of anything right now.)

And forget about outcalls.

Brothels themselves  ARE wholly illegal, yes both punters and WGs who don't help run them aren't breaking the law but my point was the police depending on the attitude of the top cops in any given area allow some to operate despite them being illegal, for many years in some cases, though could raid them at any time.

IMO what criminalising punting would do is put off some punters immediately who don't think the risk is worth it, they might have family and friends and a job, who of whom they know wouldn't accept them being nicked. And this would of course suit Harridan and her ilk perfectly.

Clearly a law the police can wheel out as suits them wouldn't be good for punters, and in areas of zero tolerance could be a huge problem. An increase in WGs or Sergei, Kevin, Petra or Karen (pimps) blackmailing punters could occur though.

[Steely Dan]

Just helping the new people Smiths.    Wholly illegal suggests something more than illegal.  A brothel is illegal.  A cocaine shop is illegal. In a brothel, only the owner and manager are breaking the law.  Not the punter, nor the girls.  In a crack shop, pretty much everyone is breaking some law.

Agree with your other comments.  It is very difficult to say what any of us would do if the law becomes shit.  Prostitution wont go away.  But it might change a lot.  The economist in me half thinks prices might drop, since demand goes down but supply is the same as now. But it depends.  Your brothel comment is spot on - why have they not gone away? Where are those Freakonomics authors when you need them?

[Blackpool Rock]

I can't see any party trying to force this one through Parliament - there are more important things for the politicians to be worrying about.

Yeah like whether they are going to get exposed for buggering boys 25 years ago 

[Blackpool Rock]

Brothels themselves  ARE wholly illegal, yes both punters and WGs who don't help run them aren't breaking the law but my point was the police depending on the attitude of the top cops in any given area allow some to operate despite them being illegal, for many years in some cases, though could raid them at any time.

Agreed and in my opinion these coppers know they aren't going to stop paying for sex in one way or another so it's better to get it off of the streets

[pervlens]

I don't think they will ever stop sex work and I know of the legal ambiguity the brothels operate with but Manchester Police seem to have adopted a sensible policy where they randomly 'pop in' to check on the girls every six/twelve months or so.

But it is possible, when you look over the support the modern slavery bill has in Parliament, it's not out of the question that certain reforms can be made to current sex laws.

I agree Police tend to widely accept that brothels/parlours and shared apartments are largely not a major issue and in fact that they are typically safer environments for working girls. That's my view too. If the law was to change, I would like it to change in a way that legalised the parlours completely.

As it stands the amendments are part of a private members bill, usually lots of clauses are stripped out over months of debate.

[pervlens]

Brothels themselves  ARE wholly illegal, yes both punters and WGs who don't help run them aren't breaking the law but my point was the police depending on the attitude of the top cops in any given area allow some to operate despite them being illegal, for many years in some cases, though could raid them at any time.

IMO what criminalising punting would do is put off some punters immediately who don't think the risk is worth it, they might have family and friends and a job, who of whom they know wouldn't accept them being nicked. And this would of course suit Harridan and her ilk perfectly.

Clearly a law the police can wheel out as suits them wouldn't be good for punters, and in areas of zero tolerance could be a huge problem. An increase in WGs or Sergei, Kevin, Petra or Karen (pimps) blackmailing punters could occur though.

Agreed and you raise the same concerns that popped in to my head whilst I was looking over the various articles.

In Manchester we have lots of parlours, some have been here for over twenty years. It is clear that Greater Manchester Police have chosen to adopt a policy of tolerance, even support. The law as it is encourages cooperation with the authorities because they know they may be at risk should they be deemed 'troublesome.'

I've been in a parlour in the last week where Police did one of their checks. They were in and out in less than fifteen minutes and didn't even talk to us punters.

[Max Pleasure]

Firstly the chances of a law criminalising punters will probably only happen if Labour win an overall majority, which is looking unlikely.  Then there would be credible opposition from those who want girls to work safely, and if it did happen I doubt enforcement would be any more effective than with the anti-hunting law.  Also, unlike arresting curb crawlers, evidence from punters who have seen indies would be hard to gather, and would not be a local priority unless the house was considered a brothel and causing a nuisance to neighbours.  I really don't think we need to worry.

[smiths]

Just helping the new people Smiths.    Wholly illegal suggests something more than illegal.  A brothel is illegal.  A cocaine shop is illegal. In a brothel, only the owner and manager are breaking the law.  Not the punter, nor the girls.  In a crack shop, pretty much everyone is breaking some law.

Agree with your other comments.  It is very difficult to say what any of us would do if the law becomes shit.  Prostitution wont go away.  But it might change a lot.  The economist in me half thinks prices might drop, since demand goes down but supply is the same as now. But it depends.  Your brothel comment is spot on - why have they not gone away? Where are those Freakonomics authors when you need them?

 Wholly illegal to me means its totally illegal which a brothel is. I was correct, a brothel IS wholly illegal. Even in a brothel a punter COULD be breaking the law without knowing he is by punting with a coerced woman, in theory that's a strict liability offence with the punter having to prove he didn't know, not as easy task to do to say the least. He MIGHT also punt with an underage girl and not be aware, as we know some 16-17 year olds can look and even act like adults. Its not been proven either of these two things are a widespread scenario though fortunately.

It seems from many posts on here over years that in some areas the police decide to let some brothels operate as they at least then know where the brothel is so the think or know its easier to police. Its also the case now that by letting a brothel operate the police can raid it under POCA when ready and attempt to seize the owners assets. Another reason I have read is without the brothel some WGs would become street WGs causing far more problems than working in a brothel for the police to have to deal with.

I am also puzzled by how RLDs still thrive in some areas. The police know the where, the when, the why and sometimes the who, some are covered by CCTV. If the police cant effectively police a RLD when it takes little work to nick punters and WGs if they choose to it tells me nicking punters punting with Indies is unlikely as that would take money and resources they haven't got and especially with the 5% cut mentioned to police budgets on the news today, if confirmed as fact.

[Jimmyredcab]

Do you think 2015 could be the year that will make it illegal? Would it stop you?

1). No, even if Labour win the election.

2). I will stop completely when I decide not when a Government tells me.   

[Jimmyredcab]

You already see in aw ads that you're paying for her time, anything else that happens is between consenting adults.

That would never stand up in a court of law, that is if it ever reached a court.   

[NIK]

It would be a great shame if I can't some of the girls I've got to know over the last few months, I'm still fairly new to the world of punting, only starting in June last year.

I've been reading some of the coverage over the Northern Island and wider in the ROI. As well as the legislation being put through our own parliament this year (modern slavery bill) all aimed at criminalising paying for sex.

Do you think 2015 could be the year that will make it illegal? Would it stop you?

Fucking hell! How many more times? 

[yorkshire123]

Fucking hell! How many more times? 

Let me be as bold to predict at least once every month   

[cueball]

Oh my god, never mind 2015, I'm worried about 2016 now (not to self, must start thread in new year if not been banned for taking shit)

[smiths]

Oh my god, never mind 2015, I'm worried about 2016 now (not to self, must start thread in new year if not been banned for taking shit)

I don't think taking shit is a banning offence, posting it could be though, not that you do post it in my view.

[cueball]

Ha ha, bloody hell my typing, taking shit, ha ha, I don't take it but I certainly talk it

[Diehard]

I must be missing something here.

Ok, so let's say labour win and ban paying for sexy making it illegal.

How exactly do they propose to stop hookers working in hotels? Put cameras up in every room in every hotel?

You see I already adopt a policy of seeing girls mainly in hotels. If it is a big hotel it is practically risk free be it from pimps or the police.

This proposed law is a waste of time. Visiting a parlour even at the moment is a massive risk. Forget the police there is always the prospect of being scammed and the pimp having a go.

Also, as was graphically illustrated in a West Midlands town a few years back where a brothel operated from a million pound house in a very upmarket area, even having a great safe at the time punt in a brothel is no guarantee that problems won't occur later on. In this instance, once the police shut it down they took all the cctv tapes and proceeded to contact every punter who had visited as most had parked their cars in the posh driveway!!!!! This because there was nowhere else to park nearby.

Me being paranoid got away with it as I actually parked my car about a mile away and waked to venue and covered my face up while walking up the drive. It one reason why I punt much more in winter as there is a valid excuse for collar up woolly hat on and scarf covering mouth!

My point is brothels have cameras at the entrance and that puts me off. A new law will make fuck all difference.

I would think what is more likely is that the inland revenue start targeting escorts advertising online a lot more which will have the effect harman wants in that punting will be less common due to a lack of decent girls as all the young english girls will disappear.

[charlie sheen]

I think that if Labour get in which seems likely (in some shape or form) then the Nordic type model will be proposed. Most of the top rank in Labour,  Harman, Yvette Cooper , Seema Malhotra, Jacqui Smith all fervently support this model. It will be proposed under anti trafficking legislation and I think it will be hard to vote against it.  For the past 3-4 years there have been people saying that it's never going to happen, but only last year Canada, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland voted for the law, so I don't think it's fear mongering at all. With Germany and Netherlands both having serious calls to rethink their laws -I would say the tide has definitely  turned.   

Much will depend on how the legislation is written. For example Canada has enacted their own law C-36. 
 
section 213(1.1)

It is an offence for anyone to communicate:-

“with any person — for the purpose of offering or
providing sexual services for consideration — in a public place, or in any place open to public view, that is or is next to a place where persons under the age of 18 can reasonably be expected to be
present.”

Would they consider places like aw/forums public? - Perhaps, it is unclear as details of the enforcement of the law in Canada have not really come through. The point is you don't have to be caught with your trousers down, just communicating with a service provider to obtain sexual services is a criminal offence.   

A lot of black and white thinking goes on when this topic is raised. The aim of the Nordic type models despite the rhetoric isn't to end prostitution (I'm sure they accept that this is impossible). The aim is to punish the purchaser (men) in the hope of reducing demand and money for services or at the very least make it much more uncomfortable and risky. The threat of having a criminal record or being on the sexual offences register would certainly put off many casual punters and that is what the aim is.

Obviously such legislation won't end prostitution, however I think that balance of power would switch much further over to the SP and prices would go up.  There would be a big conflict of interest if it's illegal for the punter to buy but not the SP to sell, because she will be less concerned about discretion and your privacy. If the authorities ask her for details of her clients , contacts she will sing to high heaven because she has committed no crime whatsoever, this is how it work in Sweden. Punters will have to think twice about complaining about poor service/ripp-offs if they are doing something illegal - she can just threaten to contact the police. Reviews and details will be much more scarce and less general information will be available so there will be more opportunities for scammers.

I think that we would get a market more like the USA  (which I think is pretty awful).  You won't be able to be sure of the scammers and ripp off merchants/ busts etc, so punters will just pay more for reliable providers who will put their rates up rates they and may start to ask for references and all that bollocks.

[char45]

If Labour get in with a small majority, or more likely supported by the SNP and whoever else, then they will try and probably succeed this time. Labour MPs are now party hacks without much experience outside of politics and university debating societies and this kind of measure, even though it is opposed by prostitutes representatives, is the kind of thing they like.

Rather than increasing prices though I think it will make them lower. It will deter casual punters and those with most to lose (i.e. ones with more money), however girls will still earn more from selling sex than the alternatives so will carry on. The same number of girls and fewer of the better off punters means lower prices and more power for the remaining punters to demand services, including risky ones.

Of course much depends on how it is enforced, the main change I think here is technology, facial recognition technology is now pretty good and the police are building a database of faces. If both punter and client are on that database and you can get a summons for visiting a prostitute as you do for a traffic offence then you would have a more extreme version of lower demand and same number of girls.

[Siadwel]

<SNIP>

............facial recognition technology is now pretty good and the police are building a database of faces. <SNIP>

They're welcome to mine 

On a more serious note, 502 male MP's to 148 female MP's. I've always believed that the majority of male MP's are out and about for a punt as much as we are, and they have an expense account too. So I really don't think anything will come of this (famous last words). Too many male MP's with too much to lose. For the same reason, I don't think prostitution will ever be legalised. Too many women with too many secrets.

[Aspen]

Why on earth the fuckwits than run this country can't see the Aussies have it cracked is beyond me,

Beware what you wish for.

Since it became widely legalised in Australia the cost of punting there has rocketed.