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Author Topic: Don't kill cash - the campaign by GB News  (Read 5469 times)

Offline puntingking

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"We are calling on the Government to introduce legislation committing to protect the status of cash as legal tender and as a widely accepted means of payment in the UK until at least 2050."

Offline jackdaw

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"We are calling on the Government to introduce legislation committing to protect the status of cash as legal tender and as a widely accepted means of payment in the UK until at least 2050."

Suspect that they don’t realise just how limited “legal tender” is…doesn’t it just mean you can insist on paying a court fine using it? (i.e. It doesn’t mean any normal business has to accept payment that way.)

Offline catweazle

Suspect that they don’t realise just how limited “legal tender” is…doesn’t it just mean you can insist on paying a court fine using it? (i.e. It doesn’t mean any normal business has to accept payment that way.)

Definition  from the Bank of England: Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay.

Offline southcoastpunter

my understanding is that it refers to the way you can settle a debt - ie that the person or business you owe money to cannot refuse payment by anything that is "legal tender".

That does not mean anyone or any business has to agree to that method of payment in the first place providing it is before a "contract" to buy/sell   is formed.

my understanding is that it refers to the way you can settle a debt - ie that the person or business you owe money to cannot refuse payment by anything that is "legal tender".

That does not mean anyone or any business has to agree to that method of payment in the first place providing it is before a "contract" to buy/sell is formed.

edit - edit - catweazle beat me to it
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 08:23:39 am by southcoastpunter »

Offline puntingking



"Current Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales and are issued in the denominations of £5, £10, £20 and £50. Banknotes can always be redeemed at the Bank of England even if discontinued. To meet the legal definition of legal tender, the exact amount due must be tendered; no change can be demanded."

Wikipedia

Offline puntingking

my understanding is that it refers to the way you can settle a debt - ie that the person or business you owe money to cannot refuse payment by anything that is "legal tender".

That does not mean anyone or any business has to agree to that method of payment in the first place providing it is before a "contract" to buy/sell   is formed.

my understanding is that it refers to the way you can settle a debt - ie that the person or business you owe money to cannot refuse payment by anything that is "legal tender".

That does not mean anyone or any business has to agree to that method of payment in the first place providing it is before a "contract" to buy/sell is formed.

edit - edit - catweazle beat me to it

Which I think that is why there is a gb news campaign to change the law to make it so that businesses can't refuse what is legally legal tender.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 08:52:12 am by puntingking »

Offline Pillowtalk


This is from the Bank of England. The total value of notes and coins in circulation has increased rapidly over the past 20 years or so and has levelled off over the last couple.

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It seems to be that cash is far from dead.

Online RandomGuy99

They're not going to kill cash for at least 20 years.

Online bigden40

They're not going to kill cash for at least 20 years.

They’re going to have a bloody good try at it, and they really used Covid as a wedge issue to push us down this road - with many businesses becoming cashless during 2020 and 21, the contactless limit increased to £100, etc.

See also proposals for CBDC in UK and other western countries.

We should be concerned about this.  Not of the technology itself, but of the cunts that are pushing it and will use it as a power grab.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 11:03:28 am by bigden40 »

Online badsin

I prefer burger king to maccies, however BK went cashless at the drive through near me during the various lockdowns.....I haven't been since.
I don't want to leave a digital footprint of everything I spend my money on.

Offline myothernameis

..I haven't been since.
I don't want to leave a digital footprint of everything I spend my money on.

I have seen protest about digital id, which some places are already using.  Possibly in the next 12 months, the supermarkets will also accept digital id's, more so at self scans

In my work place the till we have are non-digital, and by the end of 2023, the till are being replaced with brand new digital operated tills, with touch screens

Online badsin

More important than my occasional fast food treat, how will we pay to punt in future?

Offline catweazle

Spent a weekend in London last year, and was surprised  at how much cashless activity  there was. Even pubs looked slightly offended if I proferred a banknote rather than a credit card.

Offline puntingking

More important than my occasional fast food treat, how will we pay to punt in future?

by 2040 you may pay with your hand via a chip. Or there may be a company where you have to insert your penis in one of the females hole (anal, virgina, mouth) to pay for wg services   :sarcastic:


Offline JontyR

Is this campaign all because Farage is too poor to continue using his posh bank account?

Offline puntingking

I prefer burger king to maccies, however BK went cashless at the drive through near me during the various lockdowns.....I haven't been since.
I don't want to leave a digital footprint of everything I spend my money on.

i agree.

Also with some famous faces having their bank account closing by the bank gives us another reason to avoid going completely cashless.

Offline puntingking

Is this campaign all because Farage is too poor to continue using his posh bank account?

i suppose there are two sides to this argument. The BBC side or the gb news side as both report a different version to Farage story.

Online badsin

Imagine having your opinion, that may differ to others..... And them being able to control if you can pay bills, or buy food from the supermarket.
Doesn't sound very good to me :thumbsdown:
« Last Edit: July 04, 2023, 03:11:57 pm by badsin »

Offline puntingking

I posted this in 2021 about the subject of physical cash (or the lack of use of it) -

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=300764.msg3146946#msg3146946

Offline PepeMAGA

The end objective is to have programmable digital currency.

Online badsin

The end objective is to have programmable digital currency.

To make sure you are squeezed for every last penny of tax.....oh and the control element previously mentioned.
Doesn't sound good to me

Offline PilotMan

i agree.

Also with some famous faces having their bank account closing by the bank gives us another reason to avoid going completely cashless.

This is all a load of BS, all you're really doing is putting money in the pockets of people who start these stories off. GB news is just an advertising web site, they need idiots to spread their stories.

Let's suppose that your bank account is closed;

How would you get cash from your gainful employment, or business, or wherever else you derive your day to day income? Employers aren't suddenly going to start paying people in cash, benefits won't be paid in cash. Nobody is going to pay you in cash.

Today I was asked by an SP if I wanted to pay cash or bank transfer. Customers want convenience, cash isn't that convenient.

You need to wake up and see who's pulling the wool over your eyes fella, you're just being duped to give air time to click bait.

Offline PepeMAGA

To make sure you are squeezed for every last penny of tax.....oh and the control element previously mentioned.
Doesn't sound good to me
yes particularly the latter.

Online bigden40

Is this campaign all because Farage is too poor to continue using his posh bank account?

No.  Plenty of people have been talking about this over the last few years.


Offline DastardlyDick

In theory, SPa will just have to get Card readers, they must be cheap enough as some Big Issue sellers in London have them now! However, going cashless may be what finally gets rid of prostitution, especially for those of us who are married and "playing away" - I wouldn't like to try explaining away a transaction from "Sinful Sindy" to my missus, if I had one   :scare:

Offline puntingking

In theory, SPa will just have to get Card readers, they must be cheap enough as some Big Issue sellers in London have them now! However, going cashless may be what finally gets rid of prostitution, especially for those of us who are married and "playing away" - I wouldn't like to try explaining away a transaction from "Sinful Sindy" to my missus, if I had one   :scare:

I would never pay in card for wgs.

Offline Munter84

"Legal Tender" is one of the most frequently abused and misunderstood concepts in daily life. People have understandably strong opinions about what the money in their wallet ought to do, but few bother to actually get their facts straight. Rather than paraphrasing I'll link directly to the BoE (notes) and Royal Mint (coins):

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External Link/Members Only

So, when an irate Scotsman comes south of the border and insists "but it's legal tender!" when trying to spend a Scots £50 note - no, it isn't legal tender in Engand. What's more, your nice colourful note isn't even legal tender in Scotland!

You sometimes read news stories of people maliciously complying with their creditors by paying hundreds or even thousands of pounds worth of debts in copper coins, often unceremoniously dumped on the floor for good measure. Guess what - the creditor doesn't have to accept that. Copper coins are only legal tender for debts up to 20p.

The deeper and more important point here is whether a person has a reasonably broad and assured means of receiving, storing and spending their money. I use predominantly use card for purchases (and predominantly contactless, at that) but both in principle and for practical purposes I'm strongly opposed to the idea of cash being made defunct. If card and bank transfer are digital money, then cash is "offline" or "analogue" money, and only a short sighted idiot makes no provision for the lights to go off and systems to go down. Even if cash only represents a tiny minority of transactions going forward, the facility for handling physical money will never not be essential.

Offline Munter84

Regarding banks being able to close peoples accounts on a whim. This has always sat uncomfortably with me, and hell, I used to work in a bank and frequently had to deliver the bad news to customers.

"Sorry, the bank has chosen to end the banking relationship with you and this is your two months' notice. You'll need to withdraw or transfer out all your money by this date, and set up your standing orders and direct debits with a different bank. I haven't been told the reason for this decision, and this isn't something that can be contested or reversed. The reason for the decision won't be divulged even if you put in an official complaint as it relates to our internal policies. You won't be able to reapply for banking services with us for at least the next six years, which is the minimum statutory period your information is held on file. Have a nice day"

And what's more if the customer expressed the frustration of being denied essential banking services that they needed to receive their salary or benefits, and pay for bills, rent and shopping, the official line was: our banking group does not run a monopoly. There are plenty of other banks you could apply to, hence we have no moral duty to keep your accounts open.

The obvious problem, in the age of credit agency reports, shared databases of Politically Exposed Persons, (and who knows what it being very efficiently and opaquely scraped from the internet by AI these days), is that being blacklisted from one bank often in effect means being blacklisted by all. Having access to banking is all but a prerequisite for participating in society, but while your employer, landlord and utility companies may all treat your presence and participation in the banking structure as a non-negotiable, to your bank, your participation is a privilege. A privilege that can be rescinded at any time, for any reason (and very often for no stated reason at all). Banks are private, for-profit entities. They can, and should be selective about who they do business with. But, it's very worrying when accounts can apparently be denied simply on the basis of appearing in the news for the "wrong" reasons, or holding legal but unpopular political opinions, or association (however tenuous) with another person. Without oversight, impartiality and accountability, the whole system starts looking a lot like a social credit system.

Without having given too much though to the practicalities or logistics, I suppose the solution could come in one of two forms. On the basis that participation in retail banking is a prerequistie for an individual to access many basic services in society (key among these being the ability to receive and spend money),
a) The onus of denying banking facilities could be inverted. Instead of the bank asing "Prove why should we accept you as a customer?", the question becomes "Do you have any valid reason to deny me an account?"
b) Allow commercial banks to be as selective as they like, but allow all individuals to have bare-bones, no-frills banking directly with the Bank of England, including a debit card and online banking. The Bank would have no option to deny or restrict an individual's access to these facilities except for provable fraudulent or criminal behaviour, for example.

Right, that's the world put to rights, time for a nap. :hi:

Offline catweazle

There are " basic  bank accounts", there for people who have poor credit histories, irregular  earnings etc.  They have all the facilities  of "ordinary" current accounts, except no overdraft availability.

Offline PilotMan

allow all individuals to have bare-bones, no-frills banking directly with the Bank of England, including a debit card and online banking. The Bank would have no option to deny or restrict an individual's access to these facilities except for provable fraudulent or criminal behaviour, for example.

That is a solution that the Govt could implement / oversee (perhaps in conjunction with a UK Bank and ring fenced) and possibly link it to a digital currency system.

No loans, no facilities, no frills, no fees, no interest received, DD's and standing orders are available. You just have to have a National Insurance Card or other UK ID and yet get an account.

Offline PilotMan

I would never pay in card for wgs.

Why would you ever need to, your employer will be paying you in cash, so you can use that, can't you?

Online sparkus

One Parliament cannot bind the next so no law can actually achieve this under the UK's current constitution.

Still, as a bit of graffiti goes, it's good.

Offline puntingking

One Parliament cannot bind the next so no law can actually achieve this under the UK's current constitution.

Still, as a bit of graffiti goes, it's good.

i suppose you can make it difficult for the next parliament to overturn the law.

one example is that when making a law to protect cash they can have a notice within the law which reads "can only be overturn if 99% of all mps are in favour of overturning the law" ;)

Offline PilotMan

i suppose you can make it difficult for the next parliament to overturn the law.

one example is that when making a law to protect cash they can have a notice within the law which reads "can only be overturn if 99% of all mps are in favour of overturning the law" ;)

I think you'll find that isn't legal.

Offline mr.bluesky

On a slightly different topic but in some ways the same thing is the news that the rail network wants to close ticket offices at stations to save money, in other words you would only be able to buy a ticket online or through a phone app. A lot of old people won't have access to buying tickets for cash at a ticket office if they go through with this if they can't go online or own a smartphone. A stupid decision obviously an idea though up by some overpaid young executive who thinks 100% of the population is techno savvy  :angry:
I very rarely use  a train but if I did I just want to be able to rock up to the ticket office on the day and be able to buy a ticket for cash.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 06:02:09 am by mr.bluesky »

Online badsin

Without cash, you don't need cash office, or administration. You also don't need secuity company's to collect/drop off money.
Buying tickets online, decreases the amount of staff you need, therefore salaries won't need to be paid, no, and no pensions for a company to be committed to.
There's also no income tax paid, and no money spent in the economy as there are fewer employees.

Offline PumpDump

I have seen protest about digital id, which some places are already using.  Possibly in the next 12 months, the supermarkets will also accept digital id's, more so at self scans

In my work place the till we have are non-digital, and by the end of 2023, the till are being replaced with brand new digital operated tills, with touch screens

They have put the self-service tills all my local shops, Tesco, Co-op, Sainsburys. I make a point of going to the one and only cashier but lately there is never a cashier, he/she is always on the floor stacking the shelves. It's a deliberate ploy to get everyone using the tills.

Offline PumpDump

Without cash, you don't need cash office, or administration. You also don't need secuity company's to collect/drop off money.
Buying tickets online, decreases the amount of staff you need, therefore salaries won't need to be paid, no, and no pensions for a company to be committed to.
There's also no income tax paid, and no money spent in the economy as there are fewer employees.

And what happens all these employees? They end up unemployed and on benefits, which we have to pay for, our taxes increase as a result. So all this innovation and "progress" ends up costing the taxpayer more. Basically these greedy companies are making more and more profits they don't need to take more and more money out of our pockets which we need.


Offline PumpDump

On a slightly different topic but in some ways the same thing is the news that the rail network wants to close ticket offices at stations to save money, in other words you would only be able to buy a ticket online or through a phone app. A lot of old people won't have access to buying tickets for cash at a ticket office if they go through with this if they can't go online or own a smartphone. A stupid decision obviously an idea though up by some overpaid young executive who thinks 100% of the population is techno savvy  :angry:
I very rarely use  a train but if I did I just want to be able to rock up to the ticket office on the day and be able to buy a ticket for cash.

Unfortunately I could see this coming for a long time. I use train every day and the people in the ticket office have nothing to do, sitting on their phones all day. Customers voted with their feet and prefer using ticket machines and buying online.

Offline lostandfound

Thanks to inflation wages have increased, itself putting up prices, as the boss of the retailer AO pointed out recently.

If we want to tame inflation and for prices to be lower than otherwise we need productivity improvements and fewer people doing jobs that are no longer required. This will probably be opposed at every step by unions and others, but ultimately you cannot stand in the way of progress - even if you regard it as "regress".

Offline puntingking

Unfortunately I could see this coming for a long time. I use train every day and the people in the ticket office have nothing to do, sitting on their phones all day. Customers voted with their feet and prefer using ticket machines and buying online.

I am quite young and I would prefer to use ticket offices.

I still make some mistakes with Technology .
Also speaking to a real person I can be sure I am going to the right place. Also I enjoy talking to people.

How lonely we will all get if everything is done through Technology.  Some people who have no family may like the interaction.

Also parents teach their kids how to speak to people through customer service workers. "Say please,  say thank you"

It is a road to disaster if everything is Technology.  Also what if one day it breaks down.


Offline mr.bluesky

I am quite young and I would prefer to use ticket offices.

I still make some mistakes with Technology .
Also speaking to a real person I can be sure I am going to the right place. Also I enjoy talking to people.

How lonely we will all get if everything is done through Technology.  Some people who have no family may like the interaction.

Also parents teach their kids how to speak to people through customer service workers. "Say please,  say thank you"

It is a road to disaster if everything is Technology.  Also what if one day it breaks down.

100% agree 👍  you may need information from the ticket clerk too about the journey.
Took my elderly Aunt to her building society to sort out a problem the other day. Young girl behind the counter suggested the problem could be sorted out online, My Auntie is in her late 80's, I told the young lady she doesn't own a computer and if she did she wouldn't know how to use one ffs . Like you say we are getting too used to doing too much through Technology and not offering an alternative service  :dash:
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 11:15:05 am by mr.bluesky »

Offline PilotMan

Without cash, you don't need cash office, or administration. You also don't need secuity company's to collect/drop off money.
Buying tickets online, decreases the amount of staff you need, therefore salaries won't need to be paid, no, and no pensions for a company to be committed to.
There's also no income tax paid, and no money spent in the economy as there are fewer employees.

If the company does not pay employees they make more profit, we're all agreed on that, right?

Corporation tax is paid on every penny of profit, there's no personal allowance to take in to account.

So the tax paid to the revenue is actually higher.

The additional profits lead to higher dividends, these dividends feed in to the economy via pension funds and individual shareholders.

Economics 101  :hi:

Offline PilotMan


It is a road to disaster if everything is Technology.  Also what if one day it breaks down.

I'm pretty sure that these arguments were aired when "horseless carriages" were coming out.

You can't halt progress, you have to embrace it or die like a dinosaur.

Offline PilotMan

Thanks to inflation wages have increased, itself putting up prices, as the boss of the retailer AO pointed out recently.

If we want to tame inflation and for prices to be lower than otherwise we need productivity improvements and fewer people doing jobs that are no longer required. This will probably be opposed at every step by unions and others, but ultimately you cannot stand in the way of progress - even if you regard it as "regress".

Exactly.

Keeping out of date practices to "artificially" employ people kills an economy, the sooner people realise this and learn new skills, the better of we all are.

Individuals need to take responsibility for their personal value and contribution, not blame the system, employers, the government etc.

I'm my experience people don't take personal responsibility for where they end up in life, it's always someone else's fault.

Offline mr.bluesky

Exactly.

Keeping out of date practices to "artificially" employ people kills an economy, the sooner people realise this and learn new skills, the better of we all are.

Individuals need to take responsibility for their personal value and contribution, not blame the system, employers, the government etc.

I'm my experience people don't take personal responsibility for where they end up in life, it's always someone else's fault.

Off course you have to move with the times but not everybody gets the same opportunities in life. * Your reply is one I would expect from a Conservative mp. I just hope your not in a job that gets replaced by "technology "
Perhaps over 60's should be given free laptops, Internet connection and computer lessons to keep up with the times so they can cope  :unknown:
* I think it's called the "sod you jack I'm allright" syndrome
« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 01:34:38 pm by mr.bluesky »

Offline PumpDump

Exactly.

Keeping out of date practices to "artificially" employ people kills an economy, the sooner people realise this and learn new skills, the better of we all are.

Individuals need to take responsibility for their personal value and contribution, not blame the system, employers, the government etc.

I'm my experience people don't take personal responsibility for where they end up in life, it's always someone else's fault.

I'd say SOME people don't take personal responsibility, but there are many people who are dealt very bad cards in life. You can't assume everyone had the same opportunities you or I had.

Offline puntingking

Off course you have to move with the times but not everybody gets the same opportunities in life. * Your reply is one I would expect from a Conservative mp. I just hope your not in a job that gets replaced by "technology "
Perhaps over 60's should be given free laptops, Internet connection and computer lessons to keep up with the times so they can cope  :unknown:
* I think it's called the "sod you jack I'm allright" syndrome

most people would embrace technology as technology can do wonders and enrich our lives. But when people say "you cant stop progress" if by they mean technology replacing jobs, removing physical cash and AI technology apps that can give exam answers to students then that is not progress at all.

Offline catweazle

Ofcom apparently  investigating to see if the campaign  infringes the no overtly political actions requirements for broadcasters  ( but also carefully pointing out that the merits or otherwise of the campaign are not part of the review)