Police attitudes towards prostitution.

[Rochdull lad]

External Link/Members Only

This rather long article is in today's "Observer" and contains some interesting comments by high-ranking police officers, both nationally and locally in Redbridge, on the way that the law makes the situation for WGs more complicated.

[willbred]

Just reading it as I write this. Very interesting what's going on in Soho, more of a land grab than a clean up / protection of the women by the looks of it

[smiths]

Just reading it as I write this. Very interesting what's going on in Soho, more of a land grab than a clean up / protection of the women by the looks of it

Yes thats definately the case in Soho, Soho Estates have big plans for re-developing the area and the council are seemingly behind them and get the police to carry out the raids to "clean the area up" as they all see it.

[carlisle78]

After an autumn of police raids and "anti" media bullshit - there seems to be a backlash now and we are seeing more positive articles like this one.

[punk]

who killed her a punter?or boyfriend?

[smiths]

External Link/Members Only

This rather long article is in today's "Observer" and contains some interesting comments by high-ranking police officers, both nationally and locally in Redbridge, on the way that the law makes the situation for WGs more complicated.

Thanks for the link. I have mentioned Armitt on here before, good to see he continues to have a realistic view about prostitution, i hope he maintains it even if Labour and Harridan get back in in 2015.

So not one case of trafficking in Soho despite an 18 month operation that no doubt cost a lot of money.

I am not convinced by the stats given at the end of the article, i would like to know where they came from.

[smiths]

After an autumn of police raids and "anti" media bullshit - there seems to be a backlash now and we are seeing more positive articles like this one.

I hope your right and this continues, we have just over a year until the general election so the more truth we get rather than the usual guesses and agendas by femi-nazis and much of the media the better. And weaker Harridans position will be if Labour get back in to get her crusade of criminalising all punters through.

[punk]

i hope labour dont get in 

[LL]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

[Dani]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

This is the normal spouted rubbish.  Ok the poverty part maybe as some women cannot earn enough any other way but the abusive childhood theory has been spouted so many times but it is normally the HHs of this country that spout it as the majority of people who are abused tend to shy away from sex (obviously not everyone as some do think it defines them in some way).  I know a lot of prossies and not one of them has come from an abusive childhood and most have had nice middle class upbringing with nothing to cause mental distress apart from lifes normal dramas that everyone goes through.

Obviously there will be some who have been abused, just like their will be doctors, nurses, police officers and factory workers who have also had abusive childhoods.  Its just another "oh these poor women need rescuing" story that is always thrown out just because they cannot understand why else we would choose to do this job and assume we were all abused and know no different

[punk]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

that bad?

[myothernameis]

Seemingly Police Scotland are cracking down on escorts using hotels for incalls, could even extend to apartments, maybe because of the commonwealth games, and they don't want escorts in Glasgow

Most or all hotels in Scotland are being asked to put on extra security, anyone who is not a guest, should be challenged, who are they here to see

The police are also introducing a escort hotlink link for the hotels to report concerns, ie suspect an escort has booked into the hotel

It looks like hotels wont have any choice but to take part in this scheme

[smiths]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

As i posted i am not convinced about those stats but of course its a generalisation anyway to say it applies to all or many WGs. No one knows how many it does apply to.

[vorian]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

I take all these articles with a pinch of salt,  the piece has an agenda even if it is subconscious.  Statistics can be manipulated to prove or disprove an argument and raw data regarding sex workers is notoriously difficult to reliably source. Given enough time I could source and write a piece giving a completely opposite conclusion backed up with statistics as well. I punt with a totally clear conscience.

[Curious6705]

I read the article and it's quite upsetting really.  Especially the stats at the end about prostitutes wanting to escape poverty, typically having come from an abusive childhood, etc, etc.  Kind of makes me think twice about being a punter (this together with what I experienced on Friday night).

Like others I regard the stats at the end as unreliable. And easily manipulated - for example - taking up a job to escape poverty? That could be said about almost any occupation. The vast majority of people, if they don't have a job, are poor.

[smiths]

I take all these articles with a pinch of salt,  the piece has an agenda even if it is subconscious.  Statistics can be manipulated to prove or disprove an argument and raw data regarding sex workers is notoriously difficult to reliably source. Given enough time I could source and write a piece giving a completely opposite conclusion backed up with statistics as well. I punt with a totally clear conscience.

Good post.

[smiths]

Like others I regard the stats at the end as unreliable. And easily manipulated - for example - taking up a job to escape poverty? That could be said about almost any occupation. The vast majority of people, if they don't have a job, are poor.

Good post.

[Curious6705]

Good post.

Thanks. 

[punk]

unreliable may be but no one has produced data otherwise.

[carlisle78]

Seemingly Police Scotland are cracking down on escorts using hotels for incalls, could even extend to apartments, maybe because of the commonwealth games, and they don't want escorts in Glasgow

I heard this too. But is it specifically aimed at escorts or just as a response to the influx of people expected for the games. Are they just wanting to reduce risk of thefts from hotels.....

[latecomer]

Sadly the usual left-wing rubbish that you'd expect to hear.  The title of the article starts - were the police to blame?  I've always noted that the people most vocal in criticising our police are always the ones who'd be very happy to have their presence if they were in danger!

[punk]

Sadly the usual left-wing rubbish that you'd expect to hear.  The title of the article starts - were the police to blame?  I've always noted that the people most vocal in criticising our police are always the ones who'd be very happy to have their presence if they were in danger!

its easy to say its a load of crap,but where is the data to back this up?

[SirFrank]

Many politicians the police and some pressure groups (eg mumsnet) I'm sure have the best of intentions but they really are misguided and many of the crackdowns are IMO counter productive. I used to work with a Dr who spent much of his professional career trying to get boxing banned. I tried to have a grown up chat with him one day. He made some excellent medical reasons as to why boxing should be banned. Sadly he failed to comprehend that making boxing illegal will simply drive it underground, with the associated risks. I'm sure you know where I'm going here.

It would be nice to have a grown up informed discussion about punting but I don't think any politician really wants to do that. I've never had a put where I've had any impression that the girl wasn't there in her own free will. If I felt otherwise I'd walk in a flash.

[smiths]

Many politicians the police and some pressure groups (eg mumsnet) I'm sure have the best of intentions but they really are misguided and many of the crackdowns are IMO counter productive. I used to work with a Dr who spent much of his professional career trying to get boxing banned. I tried to have a grown up chat with him one day. He made some excellent medical reasons as to why boxing should be banned. Sadly he failed to comprehend that making boxing illegal will simply drive it underground, with the associated risks. I'm sure you know where I'm going here.

It would be nice to have a grown up informed discussion about punting but I don't think any politician really wants to do that. I've never had a put where I've had any impression that the girl wasn't there in her own free will. If I felt otherwise I'd walk in a flash.

And people like Harriet Harridan and Julie Bindel have the worst of intentions in my view, the belief that THEY can and should impose their world views and beliefs on ALL the rest of us. They find prostitution distasteful so want to criminalise all punters. These women are fully aware prostitution cant be stopped, they know it will be driven further underground if their crusade succeeds making it more dangerous for the women they already view as victims. So i assume such WGs are just acceptable collateral damage to them, knowing as they no doubt do that such women will still stay WGs as its a good earner to them.

Basic common sense spoken by Armitt is a real breath of fresh air, clearly at present at least he is a realist, i hope he stays that way or isnt got rid of for expressing his views. Unlike Kevin Hyland, a copper who agrees with Harridans views that all WGs are victims Armitt can see its not a black and white issue that can be generalised down to all WGs being victims.

[LL]

that bad?

Yes, I've been thinking about the girl I walked away from on Friday night.  Brand new profile, I took a risk.  I get there and meet with a girl who I suspected might be forced/coerced into doing it so I walk away.  I write about it here and the next day her profile disappears.  You commented on the thread that you would have called the police.

Never mind the stats I referred to in the article the OP posted and whether they're true or not.  Never mind what Dani says about how all of her prossie mates are normal and didn't have a bad childhood (no offence intended).  Never mind looking for articles that contradict this one.  The fact is that if you punt for long enough you will see a nasty side of this business and I have seen it with my own eyes on several occasions.  Evidence of exploitation, violence, and general unpleasantness beneath the façade of a punt.

[Falstaff]

External Link/Members Only

This rather long article is in today's "Observer" and contains some interesting comments by high-ranking police officers, both nationally and locally in Redbridge, on the way that the law makes the situation for WGs more complicated.

Good article, subject to the stats at the end - pleased to see plod talking common sense

[overhead]

And people like Harriet Harridan and Julie Bindel have the worst of intentions in my view, the belief that THEY can and should impose their world views and beliefs on ALL the rest of us. They find prostitution distasteful so want to criminalise all punters.

I don't get this criminalise the punter policy. It's like going after handlers of stolen goods and letting the thieves and burglers take what they want unchecked. Or letting smugglers and drug dealers do what they want and nicking only the addicts.

It's the prostitutes that create the business in the first place, plus they make the money of course. If they didn't make it available it wouldn't exist. It's the politically correct world gone mad yet again.

Obviously best not to criminalise anyone if they are not actually doing any harm, but what they are doing now is even more daft.

[punk]

Yes, I've been thinking about the girl I walked away from on Friday night.  Brand new profile, I took a risk.  I get there and meet with a girl who I suspected might be forced/coerced into doing it so I walk away.  I write about it here and the next day her profile disappears.  You commented on the thread that you would have called the police.

Never mind the stats I referred to in the article the OP posted and whether they're true or not.  Never mind what Dani says about how all of her prossie mates are normal and didn't have a bad childhood (no offence intended).  Never mind looking for articles that contradict this one.  The fact is that if you punt for long enough you will see a nasty side of this business and I have seen it with my own eyes on several occasions.  Evidence of exploitation, violence, and general unpleasantness beneath the façade of a punt.

yes i remember i did comment on it, just did not sink in how bad it was for you.Commenting on what you have said i agree totally, there is a real nastiness to punting and a lot of punters by human nature choose to ignore that.
getting to know some of the WG'S,Some of the things you find out not good.

[smiths]

I don't get this criminalise the punter policy. It's like going after handlers of stolen goods and letting the thieves and burglers take what they want unchecked. Or letting smugglers and drug dealers do what they want and nicking only the addicts.

It's the prostitutes that create the business in the first place, plus they make the money of course. If they didn't make it available it wouldn't exist. It's the politically correct world gone mad yet again.

Obviously best not to criminalise anyone if they are not actually doing any harm, but what they are doing now is even more daft.

Harridans warped thinking is ALL punters are exploiting WGs who are ALL victims so to her it those that exploit that should be criminalised not those that are being exploited.

[punk]

I don't get this criminalise the punter policy. It's like going after handlers of stolen goods and letting the thieves and burglers take what they want unchecked. Or letting smugglers and drug dealers do what they want and nicking only the addicts.

It's the prostitutes that create the business in the first place, plus they make the money of course. If they didn't make it available it wouldn't exist. It's the politically correct world gone mad yet again.

Obviously best not to criminalise anyone if they are not actually doing any harm, but what they are doing now is even more daft.

because they see all women as being the victim of male sexual exploitation and aggression.

[ulander]

Yes, I've been thinking about the girl I walked away from on Friday night.  Brand new profile, I took a risk.  I get there and meet with a girl who I suspected might be forced/coerced into doing it so I walk away.  I write about it here and the next day her profile disappears.  You commented on the thread that you would have called the police.

Never mind the stats I referred to in the article the OP posted and whether they're true or not.  Never mind what Dani says about how all of her prossie mates are normal and didn't have a bad childhood (no offence intended).  Never mind looking for articles that contradict this one.  The fact is that if you punt for long enough you will see a nasty side of this business and I have seen it with my own eyes on several occasions.  Evidence of exploitation, violence, and general unpleasantness beneath the façade of a punt.

Presumably your point is that legislation of some kind is needed to deter punters.  If that is really what you think, it seems hypocritical of you to continue punting and, indeed, to continue on this forum - which, after all, exists to encourage and assist punters.

[LL]

Presumably your point is that legislation of some kind is needed to deter punters.  If that is really what you think, it seems hypocritical of you to continue punting and, indeed, to continue on this forum - which, after all, exists to encourage and assist punters.

You presume wrong.  I'm in favour of deterring pimps and other exploiters in the sex trade.  That means longer prison terms (life for the worst human traffickers in my opinion).  I'm in favour of protecting the girls - allowing them to work together, if desired, for safety in numbers.  I don't wish to be deterred and besides I know that deterring punters does not stop prostitution.  I have lived in a country that follows this policy of prosecuting punters so I have seen first hand that it does not work and made things worse for many of the women.

So this forum "exists to encourage and assist punters".  Does it?  Where does it say that?

UKPunting is a free and independent punting site ran solely in the interests of punters.

That's our charter.  All of the members here are free to make up their own mind without encouragement, from me, you or anybody else.  I.e. we are not children.  I like to share my experiences here and talk about punting - the side that I get enjoyment from, and at times the bad side of it (as you will read about from other members as well, not just from me).  If that discourages you then that's your problem.
I will punt or not punt as I choose, as will I stay a member here for as long as I choose (notwithstanding factors outside of my control  ).  I am a contributing member here.  Who are you?

[Dani]

The fact is that if you punt for long enough you will see a nasty side of this business and I have seen it with my own eyes on several occasions.  Evidence of exploitation, violence, and general unpleasantness beneath the façade of a punt.

Of curse there is and there always will be whilst we are not given the same freedom and protection that normal people who work get.  Whilst we have to use false names and are too scared to work with someone else for safety reasons.  The more they try to criminalise or reduce prostitution the more of this we will see.  The better way to deal with it would be to regulate and license prossies.  Then they can criminalise the punting with an unlicensed prossie.  Those trafficked here illegally wont get a license due to having no visa.  with proper checks it will be easy to see who is working through choice and who isn't.  It will just make it harder for pimps if licenses were brought in and women had to pay a set amount every six months and attend an interview with someone trained in abuse (hence the fee to cover it) they would find it quite easy to spot those who are not in this job through choice and refuse them a license.
I would happily pay whatever they chose to charge to bring in proper licenses like they have in some countries, where it is removed if you don't have regular GUM checks or if you fail the evaluation.

It wont completely get rid of it as not all pimps advertise prossies some are just kept in their own little group and only people from that area can visit but it will stop a lot of it.  After all a pimp is no good if his stable of girls cannot get a license.  To me this seems the most sensible way to go. 
They managed to do it with the security industry and that got rid of everyone with a criminal record working as door staff and they charge a hefty fee for the exam and license

[vorian]

Of curse there is and there always will be whilst we are not given the same freedom and protection that normal people who work get.  Whilst we have to use false names and are too scared to work with someone else for safety reasons.  The more they try to criminalise or reduce prostitution the more of this we will see.  The better way to deal with it would be to regulate and license prossies.  Then they can criminalise the punting with an unlicensed prossie.  Those trafficked here illegally wont get a license due to having no visa.  with proper checks it will be easy to see who is working through choice and who isn't.  It will just make it harder for pimps if licenses were brought in and women had to pay a set amount every six months and attend an interview with someone trained in abuse (hence the fee to cover it) they would find it quite easy to spot those who are not in this job through choice and refuse them a license.
I would happily pay whatever they chose to charge to bring in proper licenses like they have in some countries, where it is removed if you don't have regular GUM checks or if you fail the evaluation.

It wont completely get rid of it as not all pimps advertise prossies some are just kept in their own little group and only people from that area can visit but it will stop a lot of it.  After all a pimp is no good if his stable of girls cannot get a license.  To me this seems the most sensible way to go. 
They managed to do it with the security industry and that got rid of everyone with a criminal record working as door staff and they charge a hefty fee for the exam and license

Dani you are popping out some top posts tonight. I agree with you regarding regulation of course many questions would still need to be answered. I was involved in the pre and post regulated security and also trained door staff. It did massively improve that industry for all involved.

[LL]

Of curse there is and there always will be whilst we are not given the same freedom and protection that normal people who work get.  Whilst we have to use false names and are too scared to work with someone else for safety reasons.  The more they try to criminalise or reduce prostitution the more of this we will see.  The better way to deal with it would be to regulate and license prossies.  Then they can criminalise the punting with an unlicensed prossie.  Those trafficked here illegally wont get a license due to having no visa.  with proper checks it will be easy to see who is working through choice and who isn't.  It will just make it harder for pimps if licenses were brought in and women had to pay a set amount every six months and attend an interview with someone trained in abuse (hence the fee to cover it) they would find it quite easy to spot those who are not in this job through choice and refuse them a license.
I would happily pay whatever they chose to charge to bring in proper licenses like they have in some countries, where it is removed if you don't have regular GUM checks or if you fail the evaluation.

It wont completely get rid of it as not all pimps advertise prossies some are just kept in their own little group and only people from that area can visit but it will stop a lot of it.  After all a pimp is no good if his stable of girls cannot get a license.  To me this seems the most sensible way to go. 
They managed to do it with the security industry and that got rid of everyone with a criminal record working as door staff and they charge a hefty fee for the exam and license

I thought you were just here to promote yourself like all the other prossies on the forum (sorry).  That was actually really interesting to read your point of view (a different perspective from any of us punters).  You have some great ideas.  I hope someday if the government ever does decide to change their policies on prostitution, that they would consult somebody like you as an expert on the topic - a sex-work tsar.

[Dani]

I thought you were just here to promote yourself like all the other prossies on the forum (sorry).

Quite the opposite and I would actively refer someone to another girl if they wanted to book me as I did it once and it changed how I posted for a while.  I prefer to not see guys from here so I can happily post my views honestly without having to pander to anyone

[Strawberry]

Quite the opposite and I would actively refer someone to another girl if they wanted to book me as I did it once and it changed how I posted for a while.  I prefer to not see guys from here so I can happily post my views honestly without having to pander to anyone

A few years ago a member here (now banned) gave me a lot of grief because I wouldn't support him when he was being unearthed as a troll and being a right twat on the forum. He thought that because he'd made an enquiry about a dinner date, and thus was supposedly going to spend "hundreds" of pounds on me that this meant I was somehow obligated to him. Received some downright nasty emails from after he was banned for his posts - which was all his own doing.

Re Policing, refreshing to see. There's nastiness and criminal elements on both sides of the activity, and the grey area it's kept in maintains this element. Unfortunately it's easy to pick on the customers, or even the prossies but the solutions and laws never seem to improve safety and well being, and have little if any follow through. It doesn't have to be complicated.

[punk]

A few years ago a member here (now banned) gave me a lot of grief because I wouldn't support him when he was being unearthed as a troll and being a right twat on the forum. He thought that because he'd made an enquiry about a dinner date, and thus was supposedly going to spend "hundreds" of pounds on me that this meant I was somehow obligated to him. Received some downright nasty emails from after he was banned for his posts - which was all his own doing.

Re Policing, refreshing to see. There's nastiness and criminal elements on both sides of the activity, and the grey area it's kept in maintains this element. Unfortunately it's easy to pick on the customers, or even the prossies but the solutions and laws never seem to improve safety and well being, and have little if any follow through. It doesn't have to be complicated.

i hope you got out an injunction on him, unfortunately some clients think they own the escort once a possible £££ trans action has been talked about. on another point What are the solutions  than?

[Strawberry]

i hope you got out an injunction on him, unfortunately some clients think they own the escort once a possible £££ trans action has been talked about. on another point What are the solutions  than?

He didn't get that far, I blocked his emails no injunction required.

Solutions are make the law clearer, stop confusing matters with so many grey areas, make it clear prostitution is legal(a lot of people still think it's illegal which makes punters and prossies vulnerable), a register or some way of checking prossies are legit, safe and not forced, clamp down on the traffickers and dealers - which goes for all industries because it's not all sex stuff. Stop trying to divert the issue onto clients, because it's way wide of the mark but I guess it's easy to scape goat the 'nasty abusive' men who visit us, majority are not.

[punk]

He didn't get that far, I blocked his emails no injunction required.

Solutions are make the law clearer, stop confusing matters with so many grey areas, make it clear prostitution is legal(a lot of people still think it's illegal which makes punters and prossies vulnerable), a register or some way of checking prossies are legit, safe and not forced, clamp down on the traffickers and dealers - which goes for all industries because it's not all sex stuff. Stop trying to divert the issue onto clients, because it's way wide of the mark but I guess it's easy to scape goat the 'nasty abusive' men who visit us, majority are not.

thank god for that 

What about the german way of doing things? special zones or brothels,government owned?I believe, they think cut off the   
demand by criminalising the clients and end of problem.

[Strawberry]

thank god for that 

What about the german way of doing things? special zones or brothels,government owned?I believe, they think cut off the   
demand by criminalising the clients and end of problem.

Cut off the demand means prossies out of business, then they face the stigma and barriers of trying to exit and get into other employment. Demand doesn't get cut it just gets harder, punters could be blackmailed or robbed, genuine prossies are left with higher proportion of clients who don't care about the law which could imply they'd not be beyond committing other crimes.

Problem I'd see with zones is discretion, ghettoisation. Not everyone wants to visit the same type of set up, and it could become clinical for some.

[punk]

Cut off the demand means prossies out of business, then they face the stigma and barriers of trying to exit and get into other employment. Demand doesn't get cut it just gets harder, punters could be blackmailed or robbed, genuine prossies are left with higher proportion of clients who don't care about the law which could imply they'd not be beyond committing other crimes.

Problem I'd see with zones is discretion, ghettoisation. Not everyone wants to visit the same type of set up, and it could become clinical for some.

i understand what you are saying, punters can get blackmailed now look what happened to 1 member on here, getting setup and robbed also goes on both for the punter and escort.lets be honest its not ideal, now with discretion,its not too bad if you are on your own and depends on how many blokes a WG sees per day, but look what happens when there are 1+ women in a residential area, not long before most of the street knows and the complaints start.
About a WG finding other employment, you most likely correct but that falls into the hands of those who want it stop, their answer would be these women are so exploited that it sucks them into an industry where they cannot get out.

i now feel that a lot of women love the money and cannot find an alternate career.

[smiths]

i understand what you are saying, punters can get blackmailed now look what happened to 1 member on here, getting setup and robbed also goes on both for the punter and escort.lets be honest its not ideal, now with discretion,its not too bad if you are on your own and depends on how many blokes a WG sees per day, but look what happens when there are 1+ women in a residential area, not long before most of the street knows and the complaints start.
About a WG finding other employment, you most likely correct but that falls into the hands of those who want it stop, their answer would be these women are so exploited that it sucks them into an industry where they cannot get out.

i now feel that a lot of women love the money and cannot find an alternate career.

You say that but some brothels have been in the same premises in residential areas for years so if the neighbours did call the police the police didnt close the brothel down.

[punk]

You say that but some brothels have been in the same premises in residential areas for years so if the neighbours did call the police the police didnt close the brothel down.

back handers, thats why that place in leyton survived for so long.