Men support groups (Mental health)

[Payyourwaymate]

Ok, so I made a comment about the lack of support for men in general not too long ago and decided to have a browse online as to what is actually around.

Here are some links to some men support groups that I found that claim to allow a safe space for men to talk about their issues. I have not looked into this in depth so not too sure what they are really about but it may be useful to some.

External Link/Members Only

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External Link/Members Only

So it turns out that there are already groups around, but it's not really out there unless you look for it. The links I have put in are based around the whole of the UK, some are based only in London. That's all I could find under a short period of time.  If others know of anything that could help anyone in need please free feel to add on resources, whether that could be essays, videos, groups or anything really.

[mace-window]

 

It seems like in today's society, men's mental health is ignored. But glad you made this post.

[mace-window]

P.S.

Do you know any men support groups in the North West???

[Payyourwaymate]

P.S.

Do you know any men support groups in the North West???

No I don't, I went on a quick search to find what was around and the initial links were all I could find. I think one of the links may cover North West as some were based across the whole UK.

[Payyourwaymate]

Some videos addressing mens mental health topics.

Male identity crisis

External Link/Members Only

Discussion about mens mental health

External Link/Members Only

Older men mental health video

External Link/Members Only

Why mens mental health issues increasing video

External Link/Members Only

[Payyourwaymate]

Suffering in Silence: The Emotional Abuse of Men | Dr. Timothy Golden | TEDxWallaWallaUniversity

External Link/Members Only

[Payyourwaymate]

What Representing Men in Divorce Taught Me About Fatherhood | Marilyn York | TEDxUniversityofNevada

External Link/Members Only

[Payyourwaymate]

External Link/Members Only

Brief synopsis

Harry Browne believed that a person's happiness is the highest goal he/she can achieve in life. Freedom comes from living your life as you see fit. Happiness and freedom are attainable even if others remain unfree, and it's never too late to change your life.Harry Browne believed that a person’s happiness is the highest goal he/she can achieve in life. Freedom comes from living your life as you see fit. Happiness and freedom are attainable even if others remain unfree, and it’s never too late to change your life.
"If you’re not free now, it might be because you’ve been preoccupied with people or institutions that have restrained your freedom. I don’t expect you to stop worrying about them, merely because I suggest that you do. I do hope to show you, though, that those people and institutions are relatively powerless to stop you - once you decide how you will achieve your freedom. There are things you can do to be free, and if you turn your attention to those things, no one will stand in your way. But when you become preoccupied with those who are blocking you, you overlook the many alternatives you could use to bypass them. The freedom you seek is already available to you, but it has gone unnoticed.”
This book identifies life’s traps - unconscious thinking and habits that prevent people from being free - and explains in a language even a young person can understand how to escape these traps. It helps you navigate through life while being true to your beliefs while obtaining self-reliance, peace, freedom, prosperity, and happiness.
Many who have read or listened to this book believe it’s invaluable and should be required for every young person, so they can learn how to be free before others start to rule their life. Some believe it should be a required course in every high school, college, and university. Others believe every adult should try it. Still others claim it’s a must for all who seek freedom.
This audiobook is educational and motivational, and even if you disagree with Browne’s philosophy, his logical and consistent thinking can lead you to inner discovery and profound perspectives. How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World is a book for personal liberty - one that can put you on a path to a freer and happier life.

The link I have posted is not to the audiobook but a PDF read only version. I have read this book myself years ago and can say it's quite a good read. Might be helpful to some.

[cotton]

I always remember being shocked when Gary Speed committed suicide , like a good guy supposedly in a good place in life and then kaboom , v sad.

[Blackpool Rock]

It seems like in today's society, men's mental health is ignored. But glad you made this post.

I've always thought that Men's physical health has also been largely ignored, while it is improving take for instance prostate cancer which is the biggest cause of cancer in men where 1 in 8 men will actually get it at some point in their life but it never used to even get a mention.

Compare that to breast cancer which has continually been top of the agenda for as long as I can remember, i'm not saying that breast cancer isn't important as it clearly is and i'm glad serious effort has been made to tackle it but can you imagine if prostate cancer has been tackled in the same way while breast cancer wasn't hardly mentioned 

[wombat42]

A third of domestic abuse is on men. Men are twice as likely as women to get murdered. Men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Men usually die younger than women.

I am not generally a fan of his but I admire Tory MP Philip Davies rights for men stance. External Link/Members Only He put down an amendment to make the recent domestic abuse bill gender neutral but it got defeated.

Domestic abuse and domestic violence is horrendous but it is completely wrong to look at it as just men abusing women. There are plenty of battleaxes around. The stigma for trying to get support as a man being abused by his wife is huge. The support for abused women is inadequate but even worse for abused men.

[Chorley]

A third of domestic abuse is on men. Men are twice as likely as women to get murdered. Men are more likely to commit suicide than women. Men usually die younger than women.

I am not generally a fan of his but I admire Tory MP Philip Davies rights for men stance. External Link/Members Only He put down an amendment to make the recent domestic abuse bill gender neutral but it got defeated.

Domestic abuse and domestic violence is horrendous but it is completely wrong to look at it as just men abusing women. There are plenty of battleaxes around.

Exactly this.One of my ex colleagues was abused for years by his ex wife.
She was petite 5' 1' and looked like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. He was 6'1', 16 stone hard as nails ex soldier.

"Who do you think people will believe" he always used to say. He eventually walked after 10 years and lost his everything from the divorce. Thankfully he met a nice woman and is very happy again. 

[hungrypunt]

P.S.

Do you know any men support groups in the North West???

Minds matter used be a good place to start.

Most local councils have outreach groups too if any good

[sanchez]

Great thread. Thanks for posting. 

The NHS even has some free audio guide to help.

External Link/Members Only

At work they have a big focus on mindfulness, being aware of you mental health and wellbeing so that you can manage it via meditation, cognitive therapy and other tools to help eliminate bouts of depression and anxiety. Meditation as a tool has helped me immensely in my life as has leading a healthy lifestyle, getting good sleep, physical exercise etc.

Something else I stumbled upon during my research was a company that offers therapy session online and over the phone throughout Covid and lockdown. It may be of benefit to someone:

External Link/Members Only

[badsin]

Good thread, and thank you to the OP for starting.

An issue that's easily ignored or swept under the carpet, for all the machismo reasons. I've been to three funerals of school friends within the past 2 years, all male, all suicides. Terrible loss for their families.
Anybody feeling down, please look into the links above, and asking for help is not weakness

[Chorley]

Good thread, and thank you to the OP for starting.

An issue that's easily ignored or swept under the carpet, for all the machismo reasons. I've been to three funerals of school friends within the past 2 years, all male, all suicides. Terrible loss for their families.
Anybody feeling down, please look into the links above, and asking for help is not weakness

A bloke I went to school with recently took his own life following the breakdown of his marriage.
The guy was a bloody diamond and universally loved. I don't think I've ever seen so many people attend a funeral. What a  waste.   

[wombat42]

As I said on a previous thread there is a complete lack of somewhere you can safely vent or even better receive advice from a trustworthy person. Going to the beach today and in the cafes you would think that everyone was having fun and the time of their lives. But for everyone there are private tragedies they keep to themselves.

[mace-window]

Minds matter used be a good place to start.

Most local councils have outreach groups too if any good

Thanks hungerPunt.

[mace-window]

Just be careful of which mental health advise/Doctor you listen to. Some will just give you strong anti depression meds without talking to you which some meds can fuck with your personality and head. And in the USA the American Psychological Association has released guidelines for working with men and boys which is basically against masculinity and hence will drug you up showing any signs of it.

Links:
What’s Under the Hood of APA’s Guidelines for Boys and Men - External Link/Members Only
APA’s War on Masculinity - External Link/Members Only

[sparkus]

It was my impression from all the tube ads and social media hashtags etc. that there was a big push now for men to 'speak up' about mental health and it 'being OK to not be OK'.  Even Sadiq Khan says it is.

There was also the statistic that 3/4 of suicides are men and in particular younger men.

Of course, hashtags can't replace a mental health service within the NHS that has been cut down to virtually nil.

[sparkus]

Just be careful of which mental health advise/Doctor you listen to. Some will just give you strong anti depression meds without talking to you which some meds can fuck with your personality and head. And in the USA the American Psychological Association has released guidelines for working with men and boys which is basically against masculinity and hence will drug you up showing any signs of it.

Links:
What’s Under the Hood of APA’s Guidelines for Boys and Men - External Link/Members Only
APA’s War on Masculinity - External Link/Members Only

Believe it or not, in the mid-late 90s there was a fad of feigning depression to get Prozac off GPs (very easy) in the belief it buffeted ecstasy use and comedowns (which sucked ass).  I was even approached several times in estate pubs by desperate druggies offering it as they said it combined with booze was a hallucinogen.

My sole recollection of the drug was just not caring about anything (essay deadlines, what people thought, you name it) and my dick was like a pencil.

[wombat42]

Just be careful of which mental health advise/Doctor you listen to. Some will just give you strong anti depression meds without talking to you which some meds can fuck with your personality and head. And in the USA the American Psychological Association has released guidelines for working with men and boys which is basically against masculinity and hence will drug you up showing any signs of it.

Links:
What’s Under the Hood of APA’s Guidelines for Boys and Men - External Link/Members Only
APA’s War on Masculinity - External Link/Members Only

Anti-depressants are useless for most ppl and they can be difficult to come off. Talking therapy likely to be better but long waiting lists. As I said before there is a serious lack of trustworthy ppl you can vent your problems to or get advice from.

[The Owl]

Anti-depressants are useless for most ppl and they can be difficult to come off. Talking therapy likely to be better but long waiting lists. As I said before there is a serious lack of trustworthy ppl you can vent your problems to or get advice from.

Although the science behind anti-depressants is still not completely in agreement and there is certain belief that they may have a placebo effect rather than a real effect on low mood, anxiety and depression they shouldn't be discounted.

If the cause of your depression is related to a situation that is temporary then anti-depressants may be perfect to get you through that tough time. So loosing your job, a death in the family or having to go off sick due to an operation will all sort themselves out once you get a new job,  go through the mourning process or recover from the op.

What anti-depressants can't do is fix long term issues such as abuse learnt behaviours that are counter productive your happiness or traumatic experiences that you can't move on from because you're stuck. In these cases you'll need far more than chemicals zapping your brain.

[Pedalwall]

Minds matter used be a good place to start.

Most local councils have outreach groups too if any good

Check out Men's Health Forum (External Link/Members Only) both for information as well as groups across England.

[Marmalade]

Mindfulness is useful but I think that methods of learning to love and value oneself and then focusing on extending that positivity to others is more effective as it firstly creates a good awareness but the focus on others takes away the self-centred absorption which turns depression into a downward spiral.  There’s some good cognitive psychology techniques on this.

On the other hand, getting out and shagging different women can help tremendously. (If you’re maybe interested I posted more details on this in the post-ejaculation pick-me-up thread or whatever it was called.)

[mace-window]

Mindfulness is useful but I think that methods of learning to love and value oneself and then focusing on extending that positivity to others is more effective as it firstly creates a good awareness but the focus on others takes away the self-centred absorption which turns depression into a downward spiral.  There’s some good cognitive psychology techniques on this.

On the other hand, getting out and shagging different women can help tremendously. (If you’re maybe interested I posted more details on this in the post-ejaculation pick-me-up thread or whatever it was called.)

If only it was that easy during this Lockdown. As you mentioned getting out, getting fit and doing some excise is great to your mental health.

[winkywanky]

I've always thought that Men's physical health has also been largely ignored, while it is improving take for instance prostate cancer which is the biggest cause of cancer in men where 1 in 8 men will actually get it at some point in their life but it never used to even get a mention.

Compare that to breast cancer which has continually been top of the agenda for as long as I can remember, i'm not saying that breast cancer isn't important as it clearly is and i'm glad serious effort has been made to tackle it but can you imagine if prostate cancer has been tackled in the same way while breast cancer wasn't hardly mentioned 

This.

Every man over 50 should be offered an annual prostate exam at his GP surgery.

The sad fact is that women make much more of a noise about what pisses them off, than men do. I think a few on here may agree with that 

The latest pile of crap is that women must feel free to tell everyone about their 'menstrual issues'  . You can say what you like dear, but I may not be listening. Period poverty. Really? 

What about older guys wetting themselves because their prostate is the size of a tennis ball? Am I going to get Y-Fronts on the NHS? Not interested? Nah, didn't think you would be  .

By the way, despite my cynicism, Blackpool, I totally agree women should have effective and freely-available screening for breast cancer. But my cynicism is borne of the fact that men are being left behind and ignored, in all kinds of ways.

As a man, feeling like you're been left out and yes, unloved, is doing no good whatsoever for the high suicide rate in men.

So Payyourwaymate, many thanks for starting this thread  .

[Marmalade]

If only it was that easy during this Lockdown. As you mentioned getting out, getting fit and doing some excise is great to your mental health.

Doubtless explains that a number of forum members are doing some extensive planning. Of course it depends on whether it’s expression of acute need or whether generally wondering about it. I suppose UKP May offer “moral support” for some people and for others just a reminder that the candy shop is shut.

Sink, swim, find a bridge, we can’t just wish pandemics away. Go with the flow or swim against the tide. Different strokes for different folks. You can’t always change circumstances, only your attitude towards them. It’s good that there’s all these online services, government commitments and so on but not everyone who is depressed will even have the desire to use them, or else will find problems (real or imagined).

Most people who are depressed eventually climb out of it. Most of those on antidepressants stay on them far too long. The first thing is to get to a safe place in your head to think about it.
Do you want to die?
Are you planning to die?
Have you worked out how to do it?
Ok.
Are there any other options?

[Payyourwaymate]

An interesting video where a woman tried to live as a man for 18 months. Seemed like she ended up having mental health issues by the end of the trial period due to harbouring dual identities and experiencing the pain as living as a man being unable to emotionally express themselves in the time period. By the end of it she appreciated being a woman more.

2006 Self Made Man: Norah Vincent chooses Female Privilege over Male Privilege

External Link/Members Only

Youtube vid link

External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

An interesting video where a woman tried to live as a man for 18 months. Seemed like she ended up having mental health issues by the end of the trial period due to harbouring dual identities and experiencing the pain as living as a man being unable to emotionally express themselves in the time period. By the end of it she appreciated being a woman more.

2006 Self Made Man: Norah Vincent chooses Female Privilege over Male Privilege

External Link/Members Only

Youtube vid link

External Link/Members Only

Wow.

Very interesting.

I guess in a way she couldn't pull it off perfectly, and experience exactly what a man would, because despite her best efforts she came across as an effeminate guy or possibly gay. That will have modified guys' responses to her somewhat. But she certainly seems to have gleaned enough of the 'guy experience' to have a very good idea.

[mace-window]

An interesting video where a woman tried to live as a man for 18 months. Seemed like she ended up having mental health issues by the end of the trial period due to harbouring dual identities and experiencing the pain as living as a man being unable to emotionally express themselves in the time period. By the end of it she appreciated being a woman more.

2006 Self Made Man: Norah Vincent chooses Female Privilege over Male Privilege

External Link/Members Only

Youtube vid link

External Link/Members Only

I remember this video ages ago. Kind of prove our point to feminist that most men don't have it easy at all.

[Payyourwaymate]

A commentary video where women transition into trans men and discover how isolating living as a man is.

Female-to-Male Trans Gain Male Privilege and it Sucks

External Link/Members Only


The original article which is being commented on.

External Link/Members Only

[Payyourwaymate]

Mindfulness and mental health

External Link/Members Only.

External Link/Members Only

All it takes is 10 mindful minutes | Andy Puddicombe

External Link/Members Only

How mindfulness changes the emotional life of our brains | Richard J. Davidson | TEDxSanFrancisco

External Link/Members Only


Self-Transformation Through Mindfulness | Dr. David Vago | TEDxNashville

External Link/Members Only

Master Shi Heng Yi – 5 hindrances to self-mastery | Shi Heng YI | TEDxVitosha

External Link/Members Only

[Sigmund Freud]

 

[Payyourwaymate]

Japan: The Age Of Social Withdrawal

External Link/Members Only

"As the coronavirus pandemic plunged the world into lockdown, for many in Japan the social isolation that was imposed was nothing out of the ordinary. Why have so many in Japan become socially withdrawn - even before the pandemic?"

I think this is relevant as the video focuses mainly on men. I feel this issue of men and in particular young men becoming socially withdrawn from society is not just prevelant in Japan but everywhere in the modern world. A lot of these men seem to be misunderstood and not many people really care to help either with their differing perspectives on how society is or how to take part in it. An interesting watch.

[sparkus]

Japan: The Age Of Social Withdrawal

External Link/Members Only

"As the coronavirus pandemic plunged the world into lockdown, for many in Japan the social isolation that was imposed was nothing out of the ordinary. Why have so many in Japan become socially withdrawn - even before the pandemic?"

I think this is relevant as the video focuses mainly on men. I feel this issue of men and in particular young men becoming socially withdrawn from society is not just prevelant in Japan but everywhere in the modern world. A lot of these men seem to be misunderstood and not many people really care to help either with their differing perspectives on how society is or how to take part in it. An interesting watch.

I think that could only exist in a country as affluent as Japan.  Imagine telling your parents you were going to not only continue living under their roof in your 30s but also depend on them economically

Also in Asian societies with pressure to not only conform but also get high grades, dropping out is probably a better option than suicide (which many take).

[Payyourwaymate]

I think that could only exist in a country as affluent as Japan.  Imagine telling your parents you were going to not only continue living under their roof in your 30s but also depend on them economically

Also in Asian societies with pressure to not only conform but also get high grades, dropping out is probably a better option than suicide (which many take).

Yes I do agree to an extent with the pressure being higher in such environments. I do also think that many young men and men in general in other places may be feeling at risk of the same thing aswell. Over in the west the young men may be looked at just being depressed or having mental health issues with no real exposure to their situation, in japan they are called Hikikomoris. With some men however who are like this but they are also frustrated that they do not have sex along with it, they get referred to as "incels" just being angry at not having sex. However, they happen to share the same problems aswell with dealing with society but they vent out a lot of their anger on women.

Do you know of Jordan Peterson? He gained a popular almost cult like following of young men for him trying to help them address their issues in how to deal with life and coping in society. As for how practical they are, not too sure. His lectures on psychology and philosophy were interesting though. I'll see if I can find some material.

[Payyourwaymate]

‘I used to be an incel’

In the darkest corners of the internet, a subculture associated with hating women and mass killings is growing. One man tells how he almost got sucked in .

External Link/Members Only

Posting this for those who do not know what I meant in the previous post when referring to "incels".

[Payyourwaymate]

001 Maps of Meaning: 1 Monsters of Our Own Making

External Link/Members Only

002 Maps of Meaning: 2 Contending with Chaos (TVO)

External Link/Members Only

003 Maps of Meaning: 3 Becoming Like Gods (TVO)

External Link/Members Only

004 Maps of Meaning: 4 Games People Must Play (TVO)

External Link/Members Only

005 Maps of Meaning: 5 Grappling with Fear (TVO)

External Link/Members Only

These are some of his old material (lectures) I could find right off the bat. His old material when he was not politically involved with anything was a lot more interesting than his more recent material.

[mace-window]

‘I used to be an incel’

In the darkest corners of the internet, a subculture associated with hating women and mass killings is growing. One man tells how he almost got sucked in .

External Link/Members Only

Posting this for those who do not know what I meant in the previous post when referring to "incels".

No offense Payyourwaymate but BBC and the like normally paint incels in a bad light. I not a incel myself but I do know that most incels aren't mass killers or all have totally hatred of women. From what I seen is bunch guys who have given up hope to getting in a loving relationship with women because they think if you don't have the look of a chad, have the right chin length or jaw line, your not a white guy (Just be white - JBW), have money or got some kind of status then you will never have a loving relationship with a young Stacy. That and they think you can't do anything to improve in your looks or position in life. Telling them to join a gym, dress better or with me just telling them that women is not end all in life and will only be meet with a replay of "your coping bro".

So basically everything about incels is looks and their need for a loving relationship. 

This video on Oreo man (a popular black incel youtuber) basically does a better job of describing the incel movement. But the video is kind of funny (and some parts very sad) with Oreo man describing how he will sell his soul to the devil  .

The Story of Oreo Man | The INCEL Who Wants to Sell His Soul:https://youtu.be/39Yffhpqoew

I will say, incels will have some great points about today's male to female relationships and sometimes you can't do anything to get a loving relationship with a woman, but again they are other things in life you could make you happy and yes improving you position in life can help with attracting ladies.   

But it's funny that western mainstream media and the public will be more concerned with the few incel killers (which they are few incels that hate woman and go killing women) and basically shit on these guys without getting them the right help but they won't talk about the incel men who kill themselves which I can guess they is a good amount of incel men killing themselves. Heck one incel set himself to fire as he wanted to literately go out with a bag and go out painfully to end his suffering.

But will check BBC article out regardless. May get pleasantly surprised.

[sparkus]

No offense Payyourwaymate but BBC and the like normally paint incels in a bad light. I not a incel myself but I do know that most incels aren't mass killers or all have totally hatred of women. From what I seen is bunch guys who have given up hope to getting in a loving relationship with women because they think if you don't have the look of a chad, have the right chin length or jaw line, your not a white guy (Just be white - JBW), have money or got some kind of status then you will never have a loving relationship with a young Stacy. That and they think you can't do anything to improve in your looks or position in life. Telling them to join a gym, dress better or with me just telling them that women is not end all in life and will only be meet with a replay of "your coping bro".

So basically everything about incels is looks and their need for a loving relationship. 

This video on Oreo man (a popular black incel youtuber) basically does a better job of describing the incel movement. But the video is kind of funny (and some parts very sad) with Oreo man describing how he will sell his soul to the devil  .

The Story of Oreo Man | The INCEL Who Wants to Sell His Soul:https://youtu.be/39Yffhpqoew

I will say, incels will have some great points about today's male to female relationships and sometimes you can't do anything to get a loving relationship with a woman, but again they are other things in life you could make you happy and yes improving you position in life can help with attracting ladies.   

But it's funny that western mainstream media and the public will be more concerned with the few incel killers (which they are few incels that hate woman and go killing women) and basically shit on these guys without getting them the right help but they won't talk about the incel men who kill themselves which I can guess they is a good amount of incel men killing themselves. Heck one incel set himself to fire as he wanted to literately go out with a bag and go out painfully to end his suffering.

But will check BBC article out regardless. May get pleasantly surprised.

Apparently 'Oreo Man', when he's not engaged in acts of self-loathing, thinks he's entitled to have any black woman of his choice on the basis they're, erm, black.

And people wonder why NBA policies exist

[Kev40ish]

Apparently 'Oreo Man', when he's not engaged in acts of self-loathing, thinks he's entitled to have any black woman of his choice on the basis they're, erm, black.

And people wonder why NBA policies exist

I tend to agree he seems to think he is entitled, but the reality is you can see why no-one would want to be with him..

Sad to say you get what you deserve

[mace-window]

I tend to agree he seems to think he is entitled, but the reality is you can see why no-one would want to be with him..

Sad to say you get what you deserve

That's the thing. He needs to lose weight, get better dress sense and get a better look on life. Or forget about black women if they "actually" don't want you and go for another race of women that treat you better. Or better yet focus on yourself and forget about women for the time being. Women aren't number 1 most important thing in life.

[sparkus]

That's the thing. He needs to lose weight, get better dress sense and get a better look on life. Or forget about black women if they "actually" don't want you and go for another race of women that treat you better. Or better yet focus on yourself and forget about women for the time being. Women aren't number 1 most important thing in life.

I know guys who are roughly comparable in the looks and dress stakes to him who have settled down with decent enough women.  It's pure self pity for an audience, nothing else but.

[Marmalade]

I know guys who are roughly comparable in the looks and dress stakes to him who have settled down with decent enough women.  It's pure self pity for an audience, nothing else but.

I think we’ve all had that sickening feeling of seeing a hot babe in a steady relationship with some guy who looks way below her market value. Sometimes he’s rich. Often times he just knows how to fill the emotional need that she has. 

[sparkus]

I think we’ve all had that sickening feeling of seeing a hot babe in a steady relationship with some guy who looks way below her market value. Sometimes he’s rich. Often times he just knows how to fill the emotional need that she has.

I didn't say 'hot', just 'decent enough'.
I do know guys who are perpetually single as the only women they'd consider being with are 'hot', which just isn't going to happen.
So I guess when Oreo Man fumes about all the black women he's not getting, he just means the 'hot' ones

[mace-window]

I know guys who are roughly comparable in the looks and dress stakes to him who have settled down with decent enough women.  It's pure self pity for an audience, nothing else but.

I agree. But I think some of those guys standards are to high. It like they behave like typical fat positive female thinking they deserve 6 ft tall model who has 5% body fat and muscles. But they never do the work to get attraction of such people or settle with someone is not as attractive but decent enough in looks compared to those models. 

As for Oreo man having a pity party for views, I don't know. If he wanted more views and a audience, he would keep his first channel rather than deleting channels and making new ones every so often.

[Marmalade]

Is this a ‘two-sides-of-the-fence’ issue? I must confess I can feel generous to any man who says he can’t get a woman, and even someone who says he can’t get the sort of woman of his choice. But I sense a bit of intolerance in myself towards someone who labels himself an ‘incel’  — to my mind it shrieks of victimhood. To me the answer is simple: if you can’t get one another way, then pay money, same as anyone else!

[Payyourwaymate]

No offense Payyourwaymate but BBC and the like normally paint incels in a bad light. I not a incel myself but I do know that most incels aren't mass killers or all have totally hatred of women. From what I seen is bunch guys who have given up hope to getting in a loving relationship with women because they think if you don't have the look of a chad, have the right chin length or jaw line, your not a white guy (Just be white - JBW), have money or got some kind of status then you will never have a loving relationship with a young Stacy. That and they think you can't do anything to improve in your looks or position in life. Telling them to join a gym, dress better or with me just telling them that women is not end all in life and will only be meet with a replay of "your coping bro".

So basically everything about incels is looks and their need for a loving relationship. 

This video on Oreo man (a popular black incel youtuber) basically does a better job of describing the incel movement. But the video is kind of funny (and some parts very sad) with Oreo man describing how he will sell his soul to the devil  .

The Story of Oreo Man | The INCEL Who Wants to Sell His Soul:https://youtu.be/39Yffhpqoew

I will say, incels will have some great points about today's male to female relationships and sometimes you can't do anything to get a loving relationship with a woman, but again they are other things in life you could make you happy and yes improving you position in life can help with attracting ladies.   

But it's funny that western mainstream media and the public will be more concerned with the few incel killers (which they are few incels that hate woman and go killing women) and basically shit on these guys without getting them the right help but they won't talk about the incel men who kill themselves which I can guess they is a good amount of incel men killing themselves. Heck one incel set himself to fire as he wanted to literately go out with a bag and go out painfully to end his suffering.

But will check BBC article out regardless. May get pleasantly surprised.

I see, thanks for that. You are right I watched the video and looked at other sources and you are 100% right. This oreo man guy though, he said if he was in jail he would tell the next man to fuck him and slit his throat. He also said he wants satan to bless him with a bad bitch and success Fucking hell LOL. His mental health was awful though how could he expect to make progress when he had no faith in himself. He refused any type of encouragement, he was doing this for 11 years. 11 years is a long time to hate yourself, I'm surprised he did not kill himself.

You know what I remember years ago I went on an incel forum out of curiosity and there was a guy who tried to approach 1000 women and he documented it. Failed everytime, did not get one number. His mental health throughout the thread deteriorated till he got banned. I can only wonder how many young men are like this now.

The thing is though, I think people in general have a sixth sense for telling people who are desperate; I think women can detect desperate men quite quickly, so when these men base everything about their existence on women and feel they have nothing if they can't get girls and become desperate it's easy to tell, you can see it in their behaviour and they get rejected. It then becomes a vicious cycle until the man eventually breaks or becomes entirely bitter. There is no place for these men to find support to get them out of such a perspective, they just join up with other like minded individuals and bemoan their situation which I do understand. The "dating market" for young men in the west outside of University and College is fucked lol both sides have too much expectations but young men have to run uphill to even get to the start point that women are at.

I'm not sure what the solution would be to be honest. I think it will just get worse. Perhaps stoicism may help these men.   

[Payyourwaymate]

On the note of stoicism. Here is a quick wiki description on what it is.

Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual's ethical and moral well-being: "Virtue consists in a will that is in agreement with Nature." This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; "to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy," and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all men alike are products of nature".

I would recommend reading Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (Roman Emperor from 161 to 180 AD) "Meditations". Great read for understanding the process of how to contemplate situations, ones self and dealing with life. Even though written 1000s of years ago is still relevant in dealing with personal emotions and well being in trials and tribulations.