Is our benefits system broken?

[sir wanksalot]

It's in all the mainstream media today about a group of Bulgarians living in the UK who swindled over £54 million in dodgy Universal Credit claims.

It's not even 9:00am and it's already put me in a bad mood.

Why does our system allow scammers to screw the country so easily? I am sure that they are just the tip of the iceberg

[mr.bluesky]

It's in all the mainstream media today about a group of Bulgarians living in the UK who swindled over £54 million in dodgy Universal Credit claims.

It's not even 9:00am and it's already put me in a bad mood.

Why does our system allow scammers to screw the country so easily? I am sure that they are just the tip of the iceberg

Like you say, it's probably the tip of the iceberg. You can bet they're not the only ones doing it. I would say it's not the benefits system thats broken it's the whole country that's broken

[radioman33]

Seems like the whole country is broken,trans children,shoplifting,immigrants it’s never ending

[RandomGuy99]

Seems like the whole country is broken,trans children,shoplifting,immigrants it’s never ending

I agree. The whole country or perhaps the whole world needs a big kick up the arse.

[Bunbury]

the whole world needs a big kick up the arse.

The upcoming nuclear WW3 will make sure of that

[badsin]

Apparently 5 Bulgarian s defrauded benefits to the tune of £54 million pounds. How is that even possible, they must be bloody good crooks: External Link/Members Only

The country is ruined. I blame Blair and every PM since.

[akauya]

It's been in all the mainstream media for the last few years about a group of External Link/Members Only (BILLION not million) of taxpayers' money in dodgy cronyism contracts claims.

The pandemic allowed cronyism and corruption on a scale not seen before in the UK... ever!

External Link/Members Only

Water companies areExternal Link/Members Only, whilst making record profits, and the corrupt tories sit by and let it happen.

I could go on and it's not even lunchtime and it's already put me in a bad mood.

Why does our system allow scammers to screw the country so easily? I am sure that they are just the tip of the iceberg 

[badsin]

It continues because there are no consequences.
Tory & labour are two cheek's of the same arse in my mind. There's no viable third option.
Up the revolution??

[Doc Holliday]

Inevitably and unavoidably with this topic, we are straying into politics guys 

Yes everything is broken. I have never known a period of my life where I have felt so depressed about the state of this nation.

DWP is very broken.

[akauya]

Inevitably and unavoidably with this topic, we are straying into politics guys 

Oops... my apologies to the mods. I'll shut up. 

[advent2016]

Don't get depressed
Go and get a massage, BJ, Sex  and you will feel much better even if it's short lived.

I've found not consuming gossip media, tabloid newspapers and advert fuelled news helps me be more positive.

[Doc Holliday]

I've found not consuming gossip media, tabloid newspapers and advert fuelled news helps me be more positive.

I don't especially, it's based on my personal daily life experiences and more especially of those around me 

[sir wanksalot]

It continues because there are no consequences.
Tory & labour are two cheek's of the same arse in my mind. There's no viable third option.
Up the revolution??

I totally fucking agree with you there my friend.

What I don't understand is how much money could be clawed back from a more robust system and stronger enforcement. It baffles me why this isn't done. Are they afraid of losing votes??

[Stevelondon]

Not mentioning politics at all.
It is depressing to see the state of this country and how everything and I mean everything. Has gone downhill over the last few decades.
You only have to drive on our roads to see how ridiculous things have got. Why….. weave around the pot holes.
You only need stand in shops to see shoplifters at work. Why…… because there is no criminal action taken against them.
You only need stand on the coast and watch the inflatables coming in. Why……. Because they are not full of women and children in need of safe haven. They are full of blokes seeking free cash handouts from an easy touch.


We pay out in this country to those who don’t need it. A ministers secretary got hundreds of thousands in compensation when her typists elbow damaged her life. Yet the people of Grenfell are still waiting.
Blocks of flats covered in material that burns so it’s a fire hazard. People living in those flats get no help from a government that passed safety regulations saying developers could use that material. Cladding.

Manufactured in a country who could sell it. But whose own building regulations prevented it being used on properties built there.

You couldn’t make it up.

I was in Singapore not so long ago.
People don’t cross the road when the red man shows.
People don’t litter.
People don’t shoplift cos they get thrown in prison if they did.

But here………….
I give up.

[finn5555]

The whole country is fucked, we have been rolling over and having our tummy tickled for far to long now.

The benefits system is just one example of broken Britain.

[RadioKid]

This isn't the an issue with the Benefit System. This is an issue with an organised gang exploiting the system and commiting Fraud on an extreme Scale.

The Benefit is there to support Families and offer safeguarding and welfare to those who need it.

The issue is lack of regulation and poor Courts. There are countless criminals going unpunished - and No, this is not limited to "Immigrants" as we see this narrative pushed again by Tabloids. Lack of Police and poor Justice System has created a free-for-all. This mess doesn't affect those in the House of Lords and in Westminster. Nor does a broken NHS system.

We, as a people, need to start holding the proper people accountable.

[myothernameis]

It's the same with the Romanian beggars, who beg in multiple towns and cities, and I put them into four categories, which you can see in most city centre

1. The young females   2. The old grandmother.   3. The dumb and deaf mute male   4. The Busker male

But recently and local to me, three Romanian females along with two males, entered a supermarket, where there is a coinstar machine.   The three females had one bucket each, full with coins, and someone recognized them for what they do, and kept quite for the time being

After watching them cash the coins in, there stash came to around £800, which the cashed in for notes, now the person made the security aware of this, and requested the police be called, due to the money laundering act

So all though they left the shop, with there cash, cctv is being used to track them down, and deal with them

[george r]

Let's hope  the 5 get decent time  inside

[puntingking]

It's in all the mainstream media today about a group of Bulgarians living in the UK who swindled over £54 million in dodgy Universal Credit claims.

It's not even 9:00am and it's already put me in a bad mood.

Why does our system allow scammers to screw the country so easily? I am sure that they are just the tip of the iceberg

That does not indicate that the benefit system is broken, it means that our immigration system is broken.

[FLYING BLUE]

You couldn’t make it up.

I was in Singapore not so long ago.
People don’t cross the road when the red man shows.
People don’t litter.
People don’t shoplift cos they get thrown in prison if they did.

But here………….
I give up.

THIS - 100%

[petermisc]

If you make the benefits system so rigorous that it is impossible to defraud, then you will inherently also make it next to impossible for genuine claimants to get through.  There has to be a balance.  What is better, a couple of fraudsters getting away with it, or hundreds of families going starving and being turned out of their homes because the benefits system is taking forever to process their claims to make sure that none of them are fraudulent?  If you accept that there has to be a balance, then you have to accept that there will be some fraud.

With every such case, there is the inevitable hoo-ha about people getting away with fraud.  Personally, I look at it in a positive light - they got caught. I wish there were more such cases being reported.

[puntingking]

I was in Singapore not so long ago.
People don’t cross the road when the red man shows.
People don’t litter.
People don’t shoplift cos they get thrown in prison if they did.

But here………….
I give up.

 I cant stand people that litter. Foreigners litter because they don't care about what our country looks like. British people litter because they have no pride in their country. I don't litter because I have morals.  Even if I acceintidently dropped something and the wind is blowing it I have to chase it to put it in the bin if its a plastic bag or something.

[petermisc]

I was in Singapore not so long ago.
People don’t cross the road when the red man shows.
People don’t litter.
People don’t shoplift cos they get thrown in prison if they did.

But here………….
I give up.

I was in Germany a few years ago, and when I attempted to cross when the red man was lit, despite their being no traffic in sight, I got a telling off from a fellow pedestrian for not following the rules.  In my view, it was that mentality of instinctively doing what you are told without question that got Germany into the last world war.

Personally, I prefer being in a country where people dare to question what they are told, rather than blindly following the rules come what may. 

[sir wanksalot]

This isn't the an issue with the Benefit System. This is an issue with an organised gang exploiting the system and commiting Fraud on an extreme Scale.

The Benefit is there to support Families and offer safeguarding and welfare to those who need it.

The issue is lack of regulation and poor Courts. There are countless criminals going unpunished - and No, this is not limited to "Immigrants" as we see this narrative pushed again by Tabloids. Lack of Police and poor Justice System has created a free-for-all. This mess doesn't affect those in the House of Lords and in Westminster. Nor does a broken NHS system.

We, as a people, need to start holding the proper people accountable.

But that is actually my point. We have a benefits system that can be exploited to such an extent.

There seems to be a sub culture out there of criminals and frauds who know what they need to do to cheat the system. Ok-we can blame the criminals all day long but criminals will be criminals.

The point I was trying to make was why do we have a system that allows this in the first place? Does nobody do thorough checks?

This is definitely not a political point I am making as it's been going on for years. 

[sir wanksalot]

It's the same with the Romanian beggars, who beg in multiple towns and cities, and I put them into four categories, which you can see in most city centre

1. The young females   2. The old grandmother.   3. The dumb and deaf mute male   4. The Busker male

But recently and local to me, three Romanian females along with two males, entered a supermarket, where there is a coinstar machine.   The three females had one bucket each, full with coins, and someone recognized them for what they do, and kept quite for the time being

After watching them cash the coins in, there stash came to around £800, which the cashed in for notes, now the person made the security aware of this, and requested the police be called, due to the money laundering act

So all though they left the shop, with there cash, cctv is being used to track them down, and deal with them

I'm quite amazed by this. Where I live we have traffic street beggars, all UK nationals and all look like they are crack heads. I'm pretty sure they operate in gangs too.

The police do nothing about it. They even stop next to them when the traffic lights are on red 

[sir wanksalot]

If you make the benefits system so rigorous that it is impossible to defraud, then you will inherently also make it next to impossible for genuine claimants to get through.  There has to be a balance.  What is better, a couple of fraudsters getting away with it, or hundreds of families going starving and being turned out of their homes because the benefits system is taking forever to process their claims to make sure that none of them are fraudulent?  If you accept that there has to be a balance, then you have to accept that there will be some fraud.

With every such case, there is the inevitable hoo-ha about people getting away with fraud.  Personally, I look at it in a positive light - they got caught. I wish there were more such cases being reported.

I'm sorry but I think that is a gross misrepresentation of how things are.

The Bulgarian gang were mentioned because they got caught. There will be many others, maybe at a similar scale, who haven't been caught yet.

And why would it make it impossible for genuine claimants to get benefits? I don't know what the verification/security system is for claiming benefits but passport, NI card, whatever-even if you're genuine you shouldn't have a problem in proving who you really are

[ulstersubbie]

The benefits system (as originally intended a lifetime ago), was meant to provide short term assistance for those who became unemployed (excluding the genuinely ill), who then hopefully would become employed again at some point. That sensible idea jumped ship a long time ago, as most British people know.

The Bulgarian scammers, Nigerian scammers, our homegrown scammers, nobody cares and so it will continue unabated. As a nation we lost the plot years ago, politically, economically and every other f***king ally!

[Bonker]

Yes everything is broken. I have never known a period of my life where I have felt so depressed about the state of this nation.

You should go and see a doctor about it. Or try to. Then get fobbed off with platitudes and anti-depressants.

Then you'll really know what depression is.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I think very few have seen what real clinical deprsession is, one ex of mine ended up in a hospital she just shuffled around with a pale ashen face mainly staring at the floor in the end she took her own life poor soul:((

[Doc Holliday]

You should go and see a doctor about it. Or try to. Then get fobbed off with platitudes and anti-depressants.

Then you'll really know what depression is.

I think very few have seen what real clinical deprsession is, one ex of mine ended up in a hospital she just shuffled around with a pale ashen face mainly staring at the floor in the end she took her own life poor soul:((

I said I felt depressed by it all, not that I was suffering from clinical depression. The state of our healthcare system is at the top of my list of depressing subjects and mental health provision figures highly as a sub category within it

[sir wanksalot]

I said I felt depressed by it all, not that I was suffering from clinical depression. The state of our healthcare system is at the top of my list of depressing subjects and mental health provision figures highly as a sub category within it

For what it's worth I understood what you meant.

They were ready to have you locked up and drug you weren't they?

[willie loman]

its really the fraud investigators that are not up to speed, they are fine at catching the single mother working on the sly, enough are caught "pour decourager les autres", but the major crooks need more attention.

[PepeMAGA]

I think a lot of the issues we're seeing now are still echoes from the lockdown and I don't mean that in some political way. Regardless of what people thought of the lockdowns, the reality is they happened.
Things like road maintenance was left, people changed their reality around work , job centres changed.... And everyone went a bit crazy as well.

[sir wanksalot]

its really the fraud investigators that are not up to speed, they are fine at catching the single mother working on the sly, enough are caught "pour decourager les autres", but the major crooks need more attention.

I'd agree with that. I find that applies to most types of law enforcement here

[DastardlyDick]

The Bulgarian scammers, Nigerian scammers, our homegrown scammers, nobody cares and so it will continue unabated.

While not defending these scumbags, to them, this is their job - as with any jib, the better you are at, the more you earn. Until we pay a decent amount to Fraud Investigators, we're not going to get people of the same calibre to stop them, but do we, as a society, want to pay the extra Taxes that will be needed to do that?

[Stevelondon]

I was in Germany a few years ago, and when I attempted to cross when the red man was lit, despite their being no traffic in sight, I got a telling off from a fellow pedestrian for not following the rules.  In my view, it was that mentality of instinctively doing what you are told without question that got Germany into the last world war.

Personally, I prefer being in a country where people dare to question what they are told, rather than blindly following the rules come what may.

Quite right.


Let’s all cross the road whenever we feel like it. In fact let’s teach our children not to take any notice of the red man green man shall we.
While we are on about it. I’m going out right now to fly tip and park my car wherever I fancy. Yellow lines or not.
😂😂😂

Whatever you do. Don’t mention the war. !!!

[petermisc]

Quite right.
Let’s all cross the road whenever we feel like it. In fact let’s teach our children not to take any notice of the red man green man shall we.
While we are on about it. I’m going out right now to fly tip and park my car wherever I fancy. Yellow lines or not.
😂😂😂
Whatever you do. Don’t mention the war. !!!

There is a difference between questioning whether a particular regulation is appropriate in a particular situation, and blanket disregard of any regulation that doesn't suit you.  That there are so many who cannot appreciate the difference is one of the main problems with this country IMHO.

[puntingking]

our benefit system was again on the news today -
External Link/Members Only

External Link/Members Only

Disabled rights campaigners are up in arms and disability charities are issuing warnings of how bad these changes would impact genuine disabled people.
Have disability rights taken a back seat and are we on the verge of outdoing the progress we have made as a country for equality and fairness?   


It is troublesome of the thought that PIP could be changed to vouchers. Disabled people are humans beings.

your thoughts?
 
some people think this is a storm in a teacup and won't actually take off. 

[sir wanksalot]

our benefit system was again on the news today -
External Link/Members Only

External Link/Members Only

Disabled rights campaigners are up in arms and disability charities are issuing warnings of how bad these changes would impact genuine disabled people.
Have disability rights taken a back seat and are we on the verge of outdoing the progress we have made as a country for equality and fairness?   


It is troublesome of the thought that PIP could be changed to vouchers. Disabled people are humans beings.

your thoughts?
 
some people think this is a storm in a teacup and won't actually take off. 

I'm unclear as to that article. Is it not saying that people with "mild mental disorders" would be given vouchers instead of cash payments?

I happen to agree with the general gist of the concept that we are over labelling, what in many cases, is simply normal life anxieties.

[puntingking]

I'm unclear as to that article. Is it not saying that people with "mild mental disorders" would be given vouchers instead of cash payments?

I happen to agree with the general gist of the concept that we are over labelling, what in many cases, is simply normal life anxieties.

I thought it was going to be rolled out (after the consultation) to everyone on personal independence payment.

I would agree that for mild mental heath problems that what is proposed could work.

But my concern is if this is rolled out more broadly. My concern is for severe disability such as disability conditions that severely impact your daily life or a lifelong medical condition or a progressive condition.

[Munter84]

One of the unintended downsides of the (very welcome) progress that's been made destigmatising mental health, is that a hell of a lot of people now qualify - unsurprising maybe when so many of the criteria are subjective and self-reported.

ADHD UK gives a figure of 3-5% of the population having ADHD (it's more common among children, some of whom grow out of it), or 2.6 million people in the UK.
ONS similarly gives a statistic of 16% of the population having moderate to severe depression.
The National Autistic Society gives a figure of 1% of the population, or over 700,000.

Without becoming some kind of welfare state, there is no way the country can support that kind of proportion of the population opting out of work, claiming benefits, and utilising NHS resources. I don't know what the solution is, but undoubtedly there'll be some broad-strokes measures put in place that manage to both deny genuine people help and allow scroungers to play the system.

[puntingking]

One of the unintended downsides of the (very welcome) progress that's been made destigmatising mental health, is that a hell of a lot of people now qualify - unsurprising maybe when so many of the criteria are subjective and self-reported.

ADHD UK gives a figure of 3-5% of the population having ADHD (it's more common among children, some of whom grow out of it), or 2.6 million people in the UK.
ONS similarly gives a statistic of 16% of the population having moderate to severe depression.
The National Autistic Society gives a figure of 1% of the population, or over 700,000.

Without becoming some kind of welfare state, there is no way the country can support that kind of proportion of the population opting out of work, claiming benefits, and utilising NHS resources. I don't know what the solution is, but undoubtedly there'll be some broad-strokes measures put in place that manage to both deny genuine people help and allow scroungers to play the system.

I don't understand how people in power operate. They can't or shouldn't punish geniune disabled people for the few who are not genuine.

That be like saying - I am going to ban fast food because some people overeat and become fat.
or - all parents must undergo a parent course before having their own kids just because some parents are useless being parents.

[RadioKid]

I don't understand how people in power operate. They can't or shouldn't punish geniune disabled people for the few who are not genuine.

That be like saying - I am going to ban fast food because some people overeat and become fat.
or - all parents must undergo a parent course before having their own kids just because some parents are useless being parents.

The current PM, Sunak, is a multi millionaire.

His wife is also a massive multi millionaire.

These people don't lice in crime ridden, pot-hole filled neighbourhoods whilst working multiple jobs that barely cpcer their bill and food.

[jackdaw]

I don't understand how people in power operate. They can't or shouldn't punish geniune disabled people for the few who are not genuine.

That be like saying - I am going to ban fast food because some people overeat and become fat.
or - all parents must undergo a parent course before having their own kids just because some parents are useless being parents.

I honestly doubt whether any significant number of politicians, even Tories, are motivated by wanting to punish genuine claimants.

Opposition politics is relatively easy. It’s when you get in power and actually have to solve real life problems with the resources available to you, that you realise how difficult it is to really improve things overall.

The problem isn’t a “few” bogus claims, it’s the very high number of people that are economically inactive, that are net takers from the overall system rather than net donors. That number has to be reduced somehow, and it is a real problem that Labour will need to grapple with.

I actually agree with you on one basic point…”punishing” people won’t work, the solution should be about helping people via giving them better skills, increasing number of attractive jobs, restoring the confidence and mental well being of people whose mental health is poor.

[petermisc]

I actually agree with you on one basic point…”punishing” people won’t work, the solution should be about helping people via giving them better skills, increasing number of attractive jobs, restoring the confidence and mental well being of people whose mental health is poor.

Totally agree with you about trying to force people into work.

I recall one of those "back in time" type programmes awhile back, that looked at the 1940s.  It put someone through the experience of claiming dole.  Back then, the attitude was firm but fair - a lot of time and effort was put into supporting people back into work, but with the caveat that if you didn't cooperate, you would lose your dole.  Nowadays that support no longer seems to be there, I suspect because the job centres no longer have the numbers of staff that would be needed to achieve it.

The aim should be to first solve the health issues, and then to offer the support needed.  But unfortunately that would cost too much - it is cheaper and easier to just wave the big stick and blame a large swathe of the population for being workshy.

[puntingking]

Totally agree with you about trying to force people into work.

I recall one of those "back in time" type programmes awhile back, that looked at the 1940s.  It put someone through the experience of claiming dole.  Back then, the attitude was firm but fair - a lot of time and effort was put into supporting people back into work, but with the caveat that if you didn't cooperate, you would lose your dole.  Nowadays that support no longer seems to be there, I suspect because the job centres no longer have the numbers of staff that would be needed to achieve it.

The aim should be to first solve the health issues, and then to offer the support needed.  But unfortunately that would cost too much - it is cheaper and easier to just wave the big stick and blame a large swathe of the population for being workshy.Th

am i mistaken - they are talking about long term disability and disability benefits in general. they was not talking about those you are able to go to work

In the near future more people will be suffering from a long term condition due to diet, lifestyle, living longer and long waiting list in NHS.

how to fix this? - no VAT on healthy foods such as fruits and veg, get the NHS waiting list down and prioritise patients based on needs and circumstances, give the working class 50% of gym memberships to encourage exercising or get the boris bikes scheme in every town and city in the country. My proposals that I mentioned would work but no political party will do these things as the effects will take longer to filter through. But Long and lasting changes will only work with Long term projects.  Also, these proposals wont create a punishing mentality which will ensure more people act on these scheme because this gives the freedom for the public to do which will also benefit hugely from better mental health.

[jackdaw]

am i mistaken - they are talking about long term disability and disability benefits in general. they was not talking about those you are able to go to work

In the near future more people will be suffering from a long term condition due to diet, lifestyle, living longer and long waiting list in NHS.

how to fix this? - no VAT on healthy foods such as fruits and veg, get the NHS waiting list down and prioritise patients based on needs and circumstances, give the working class 50% of gym memberships to encourage exercising or get the boris bikes scheme in every town and city in the country. My proposals that I mentioned would work but no political party will do these things as the effects will take longer to filter through. But Long and lasting changes will only work with Long term projects.  Also, these proposals wont create a punishing mentality which will ensure more people act on these scheme because this gives the freedom for the public to do which will also benefit hugely from better mental health.

Jeez, you posting about healthy lifestyles almost makes me feel nostalgic for the past, something I swore as a young man I’d never do.

When I first started working think my employer alone had 4 cricket teams, half a dozen football teams, table tennis sides, tennis sides, etc, etc. Nowadays don’t think a single local employer fields any football or cricket sides, and far fewer people take part in sport as opposed to watch it on tv.

Oh…and town had just created a big sports and swimming complex, which in money terms would obviously never pay, but which the local council declared “would be worthwhile because of the health benefits”.

[cunnyhunt]

how to fix this? - no VAT on healthy foods such as fruits and veg

Do you have VAT on these in the UK? I did not think you did

[jackdaw]

Do you have VAT on these in the UK? I did not think you did

Think it’s zero rated as opposed to exempt. (It seems like a past life when  I last filled in a VAT return. From memory zero rated is even better than exempt…because, like exempt, it means no VAT is charged on the output goods, but in addition it’s allowed to be offset against input tax.)

[daviemac]

how to fix this? - no VAT on healthy foods such as fruits and veg,

Fruit, veg, cereals, nuts, pulses, raw meat and fish are among the 'healthy' foods that are zero rated for VAT. Though hauliers do charge VAT on delivery charges for carrying them.