Smart Meters

[timsussex]

sounds like we need an update to  Flanders and Swann the gasman cometh

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[tintin100]

That was what happened to me, he checked all my gas appliances.  Said my installation didn't meet current standards, so the gas supply would have to be disconnected.  I refused to let him, so he called out the gas company.

I learnt from the gas company fitters that these meter changers are paid per visit, whether they actually install a meter or not.  So they will find any excuse not to fit one, so they can get away as quick as possible.  And they only have the training and tools to change meters, they can't do anything else, like disconnect an appliance that does not meet current standards.  In my case, when the gas fires were installed, they only needed an openable window in the room, now the requirements stipulate a permanent ventilator.

My recommendation to anyone thinking of getting a smart meter is to make very sure that your gas installation meets current standards. 

Agree, they took 3 visits before they completed the job, first visit, he wasn't trained to change the meter tails to 100 amps, 2nd visit, the fuse is asbestos and he wasn't trained and I complained bitterly and got a £60 credit for wasting my time and was successful on the 3rd visit.
My smart meters took 3 visits from meter changers, two visits from the gas board, and one visit from the electricity board.  Never again.

Agree, they took 3 visits to complete the job, 1st visit he wasn't trained to replace the meter tails to 100 Amps, 2nd visit he wasn't trained to removed the asbestos fuse and I complained bitterly and got a £60 credit and it was completed on the 3rd visit, this was SSE.

[petermisc]

Agree, they took 3 visits to complete the job, 1st visit he wasn't trained to replace the meter tails to 100 Amps, 2nd visit he wasn't trained to removed the asbestos fuse and I complained bitterly and got a £60 credit and it was completed on the 3rd visit, this was SSE.

In my case the first installer decided he couldn't touch the fuse ("asbestos") or gas valve ("too stiff"), said he would arrange for them to be changed.  Gas engineers said nothing wrong with the valve, which was only a few years old, but they changed it anyway.  After several weeks, I phoned the electricity company to ask when they were coming - they knew nothing about it, but arranged for their engineers to come and change the fuse.  And that was only the first attempt at changing the meter.  In the end, my smart meters cost me about 5 days off work.

[tynetunnel]

I like my smart meters. I was aware that Smets1 would go dumb on a change of supplier so I refused the many offers of an install until Smets2 was a certainty. I didn’t want to be having to consider losing smart features if I change supplier. Now I can see when kids/wife have left stuff on unnecessarily, keep an eye on usage, and never have to provide my own readings.

I mean it’s not ‘life changing’ or anything, but I find it useful 

[spiralnotebook]

At a meeting at one of the major water suppliers given by the revenue section I was gobsmacked when we were told they liked to refer to water meters as their ‘cash registers’. In fact thinking about it off the top of my head for example say your electric supplier would potentially know from your telemetry what time you get up, go to bed, peak tv viewing hours, eating habits, best time for advertising etc. Not to mention the ability to instantly turn it off or switch tariffs at the press of a button peeps.

[Fac51]

Bollox to Smart Meters ! I've changed energy supplier 3 times in the last 3 years, and won't have a SM until I legally have to

IMHO - they are just another way of companies harvesting lots of info on you & your family....

[JontyR]

Well after this thread I did decide to arrange to have a smart meter fitted. I've had it for a while now and it's been quite an eye opening experience as to the impact of the various appliances around the house.

Basically everything to heat something up - be it food, the air or (to a lesser extent) water - costs shed loads. Everything else is a really minimal drain. The impact on a rise in cost hasn't been forthcoming, my metered usage has gone down. I don't think my behaviours have changed particularly but I do wonder about the accuracy of my previous 'dumb' meter.

[Horseman]

Well after this thread I did decide to arrange to have a smart meter fitted. I've had it for a while now and it's been quite an eye opening experience as to the impact of the various appliances around the house.

Basically everything to heat something up - be it food, the air or (to a lesser extent) water - costs shed loads. Everything else is a really minimal drain. The impact on a rise in cost hasn't been forthcoming, my metered usage has gone down. I don't think my behaviours have changed particularly but I do wonder about the accuracy of my previous 'dumb' meter.

A lot more dumb meters are found to clock slower rather than faster. But its not impossible that you were over paying before. Its one of those things that you'll probably never know now. It is fact however that the majority of dumb meters are not 100% accurate, but are usually within allowed tolerances.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who don't understand the basics of "heating stuff costs loads of money" I've lost track of the number of people going bat shit insane at us because their costs have sky rocketed only for it to come out they've had a hot tub installed. They never seem to grasp the concept that a hot tub costs shit loads to run!

[Gordon Bennett]

Well after this thread I did decide to arrange to have a smart meter fitted. I've had it for a while now and it's been quite an eye opening experience as to the impact of the various appliances around the house.

Basically everything to heat something up - be it food, the air or (to a lesser extent) water - costs shed loads. Everything else is a really minimal drain. The impact on a rise in cost hasn't been forthcoming, my metered usage has gone down. I don't think my behaviours have changed particularly but I do wonder about the accuracy of my previous 'dumb' meter.

It does amaze me how many folks don't seem to have any concept of how many Watts their appliances use. It would take just one lesson at school to teach kids about this but there seems to be more appetite to teach them about how their nasty great grandparents kept slaves.
I remember a lady at work years ago comparing electric bills with me and not understanding why hers were triple mine despite similar households. I mentioned oven hob, iron and stuff but when we go to washing she admitted putting a full load on a hot wash AND dry cycle every day.and that was the difference....she was spending £50+ per month drying washing whilst mine was drying for free on  washing line. It shouldn't really take a smart meter to wake people up but I suppose it helps.

[Horseman]

It does amaze me how many folks don't seem to have any concept of how many Watts their appliances use. It would take just one lesson at school to teach kids about this but there seems to be more appetite to teach them about how their nasty great grandparents kept slaves.
I remember a lady at work years ago comparing electric bills with me and not understanding why hers were triple mine despite similar households. I mentioned oven hob, iron and stuff but when we go to washing she admitted putting a full load on a hot wash AND dry cycle every day.and that was the difference....she was spending £50+ per month drying washing whilst mine was drying for free on  washing line. It shouldn't really take a smart meter to wake people up but I suppose it helps.

Totally agree with that. My ex always wanted a tumble dryer and I always said no. They're good for that once in a blue moon occasion when you have to dry clothes quickly for some reason but people just use them for every load.

The whole "smart meters will save you money" campaign is based on it allowing people to realise whats costing them so much money on their bills. As a pure statement of fact, its a lie. But the reality is so many people realising that boiling a full kettle of water for one cup of tea is actually money down the drain for example.

[winkywanky]

I've recently changed energy suppiers to get  a cheaper fixed deal for the year ahead, and going from my old supplier (EDF) I find that my smart meter is actually now dumb, it won't work with my new supplier. Not the end of the world, but annoying. I need a SMETS2 now apparently (another example of an ill-thought out govt regulator 'breakthrough' which almost immediately becomes useless  ). Perhaps more frustrating is that despite several email offers from my new supplier to have one fitted, every time I click on the link I get An Error Has Occurred  . No matter, reading my own meter once amonth is no biggie.

I digress...yes, a smart meter will tell you where your energy is going when you look at it. This fast becomes quite boring though, and I'm a relatively careful turn it off if you're not using it type of person anyway, so not much to be gained for me. And yes, with the exception of your microwave oven (which is incredibly efficient at what it does), everything you heat up costs a lot.

In that vein, one thing which definitely is worth doing is to change all your lightbulbs to the latest LED versions (make sure you're aware of colour temperature). Your lighting bill will go down by around 90% immediately. And my old incandescent (and halogen) spare stock in the cupboard under the stairs? Stuck 'em on eBay to recycle them, there are still people who want them. Bless.

Going off-thread, something else you definitely should consider: do you have a modern gas boiler? Something very worth doing is to make it smart. Fitted as standard, a modern condensing boiler is pretty efficient in itself. However, you'll know that when you set your room thermostat to the desired temperature, your boiler will fire itself up and run hot to make your radiators hot, until the temperature rises to make the stat click 'off'. All well and good you think. Well actually, no. Not only is your boiler not running at its most efficient when going flat out, the temperature will overshoot a little before the stat turns off. Then the room temperature will undershoot a little before triggering the boiler to run flat out again. Rinse and repeat.

What you want is to make your boiler modulate. This basically means that it will normally run a little cooler (and more efficiently), run warm rather than hot water through your radiators, and as a result be able to keep a much more consistent heat in your house without yo-yoing up and down and over and undershooting. What would also be really nice is to have a system which learnt your/familial habits throughout the year, to actually anticipate necessary usage (but of course also be immediately overrideable should you so wish). And then what would make the whole thing even more consistent (and cheaper to run) is if your boiler 'knew' the heating characteristics of the fabric of your house, and also the outside temperature to assist that. And wouldn't it be great if you could control all this from your phone, so for instance you could turn on your heating after being turned down low for the duration of a holiday, with a couple of finger presses in an App while you wait in the departure lounge of some sunny clime.

I've just fitted such a system myself, and looking at my gas usage for last year I reckon I'll make a pretty good saving. Hive and Tado make such systems, although I plumped for a boiler brand-specific system for my Vaillant boiler. Had it since May, and it worked perfectly for the last two weeks of that cold spell we had. After those two weeks it had 'learnt' my house, and will continue learning into the future. My kit comprised:

Wireless roomstat >> Bluetooth connection >> Control Hub >> WiFi connection to Vaillant server.

The Control Hub sits in the vicinity of the boiler and has a two-conductor wired connection to the eBus terminals on the boiler (you put a U-link in the two terminals where the old wired stat connected).

Various sytems will work differently, and you must research it properly for yourself if having a go. But if in doubt, get a man in. My system cost £160 and I'm very happy with it so far and looking forward to reduced gas usage as well as better temperature control in the house.

[Horseman]

Bollox to Smart Meters ! I've changed energy supplier 3 times in the last 3 years, and won't have a SM until I legally have to

IMHO - they are just another way of companies harvesting lots of info on you & your family....

Interesting take - what information exactly do you think a company can harvest about you via a SM?

[winkywanky]

Interesting take - what information exactly do you think a company can harvest about you via a SM?

If you turn your heating off for two hours a day, once a week, then it's a fair bet you have a punting habit.

[Horseman]

If you turn your heating off for two hours a day, once a week, then it's a fair bet you have a punting habit.

That's why I leave my heating on - not only will no one know but I have a toasty house to come home to 

[PunterNumber69]

Interesting take - what information exactly do you think a company can harvest about you via a SM?

They get 24 readings a day, so based on your energy consumption they know:

- what time you get up
- what time you go to bed
- if you're WFH
- if you're away on holiday
- if you have an electric car
- what major appliances you have and when you use them
- approximately how many people are in your household
- what time you made a cuppa

[winkywanky]

If China get hold of that information (as they undoubtedly will) then I'm not quite sure what damage that could cause? (I'm not saying it wouldn't by the way).

[Ali Katt]

They get 24 readings a day, so based on your energy consumption they know:

- what time you get up
- what time you go to bed
- if you're WFH
- if you're away on holiday
- if you have an electric car
- what major appliances you have and when you use them
- approximately how many people are in your household
- what time you made a cuppa

As mentioned a page back about it cutting out when renewable energy is used I would worry more about them cutting it off if they deem you using too much and there are legitimate reasons beyond nefarious cannabis growing: sunbed, jacuzzi, electric car, home server, in a band, make YouTube videos. I would think about whether they do absolute bullshit like cutting it off at certain points in the day so "you" can save money.

[Horseman]

They get 24 readings a day, so based on your energy consumption they know:

- what time you get up
- what time you go to bed
- if you're WFH
- if you're away on holiday
- if you have an electric car
- what major appliances you have and when you use them
- approximately how many people are in your household
- what time you made a cuppa

You are of course aware that you have the option how often they get a read? Can be as little as once a month if that's what you want......

Sorry you're really stretching with some of those.

Plus with many of those things they couldn't know that purely from readings. The smart meter doesn't have the information on what appliances you're using.......unless you switch to smart appliances and all that entails but that's a different subject.

I mean there's not really any way for them to see what time I go to bed or get up. Is my heating set to come on 1 hour, or 2 before I wake up so my house is warm for me? Or do I put it on when I get up so as not to waste money? Is it set to heat the house before I get home from work or am I not worried about that? Is it just set on a thermostat so anytime my house dips below a certain temp it kicks in? Could be on and off all day.

Is that gas usage in the evening my cooker or my heating?

Is my high usage due to being a family of 6 or because I'm working from home all day everyday making endless cups of coffee?

There's far easier ways of finding out most of the information you're worried about without "hacking" into the smart meter information. And what you could find out would require more work to verify.

But each to their own. I've honestly never bothered to get a SM fitted in any property I live in. Though admittedly not because I'm worried about my information being hacked.

And as Wink Wanky stated - what exactly would anyone do with any of that information anyway? Except the holiday one. Bu then theres other ways people can see a house is currently unoccupied.

[PunterNumber69]

You are of course aware that you have the option how often they get a read? Can be as little as once a month if that's what you want......

Sorry you're really stretching with some of those.

Plus with many of those things they couldn't know that purely from readings. The smart meter doesn't have the information on what appliances you're using.......unless you switch to smart appliances and all that entails but that's a different subject.

I mean there's not really any way for them to see what time I go to bed or get up. Is my heating set to come on 1 hour, or 2 before I wake up so my house is warm for me? Or do I put it on when I get up so as not to waste money? Is it set to heat the house before I get home from work or am I not worried about that? Is it just set on a thermostat so anytime my house dips below a certain temp it kicks in? Could be on and off all day.

Is that gas usage in the evening my cooker or my heating?

Is my high usage due to being a family of 6 or because I'm working from home all day everyday making endless cups of coffee?

There's far easier ways of finding out most of the information you're worried about without "hacking" into the smart meter information. And what you could find out would require more work to verify.

But each to their own. I've honestly never bothered to get a SM fitted in any property I live in. Though admittedly not because I'm worried about my information being hacked.

And as Wink Wanky stated - what exactly would anyone do with any of that information anyway? Except the holiday one. Bu then theres other ways people can see a house is currently unoccupied.

Different types of appliance consume different amounts of energy over different periods of time e.g kettles, ovens, tumble dryers, so they can tell when one of these appliances is on. They can even tell if your appliance is an old one. They can also tell if your house had cavity wall insulation as it will heat up and cool down differently (retain heat longer) from houses without cavity wall insulation.

They can tell when you get up and go to bed by your energy consumption dropping to a consistent low level for a number of hours and then increasing from a particular time in the morning and then can see spikes over an hour when you've used the kettle/coffee maker or the hob to heat something.

The concern isn't about someone hacking into your SM. The concern is about people with access to the systems which hold the meter reads that have been sent by all the meter reads misusing the data. The concern is valid, but handled through encryption of the data and limited access to the data.

When you have access to data from different premises with different occupancy and usage then they can figure out the size of your household.  It won't be 100% accurate but it will still allow a high level categorisation.

This is just something to be aware of. I still think SMs are useful and I have one as I get more accurate usage figures and bills without me having to make an effort by submitting meter reads.

[JontyR]

It does amaze me how many folks don't seem to have any concept of how many Watts their appliances use.

To be fair growing up and in properties to now I've always had gas. I'm amazed at how energy efficient so many of my other devices are, it's more the stark nature of the comparison than the amounts that are startling.

[Horseman]

Different types of appliance consume different amounts of energy over different periods of time e.g kettles, ovens, tumble dryers, so they can tell when one of these appliances is on. They can even tell if your appliance is an old one. They can also tell if your house had cavity wall insulation as it will heat up and cool down differently (retain heat longer) from houses without cavity wall insulation.

They can tell when you get up and go to bed by your energy consumption dropping to a consistent low level for a number of hours and then increasing from a particular time in the morning and then can see spikes over an hour when you've used the kettle/coffee maker or the hob to heat something.

The concern isn't about someone hacking into your SM. The concern is about people with access to the systems which hold the meter reads that have been sent by all the meter reads misusing the data. The concern is valid, but handled through encryption of the data and limited access to the data.

When you have access to data from different premises with different occupancy and usage then they can figure out the size of your household.  It won't be 100% accurate but it will still allow a high level categorisation.

This is just something to be aware of. I still think SMs are useful and I have one as I get more accurate usage figures and bills without me having to make an effort by submitting meter reads.

But how old/efficient is the kettle? Or the washing machine? Or any other appliance Seriously you're stretching if you think smart meter data can be used to accurately confirm any of what you claim.

Smart meters can not confirm whether you have cavity wall insulation or not. All they measure is the amount of electricity/gas i consume. I might have my boiler going all day because its ancient and inefficient. I might have it going all day because I have poor insulation. Or old windows. Or keep my doors open to air my house. Or because I like my house to be super hot. I might not use my boiler much because I never bathe/shower and have an oil heater I use.

How on earth do you think a smart meter can tell I'm using an old or new appliance? It might be brand new but stupidly cheap and not very good. Or it might be ancient but super reliable.

Did I boil my kettle 3 times in the morning or use my toaster or hobbs to boil an egg?

Honestly it baffles me how people can think a machine that literally records what electricity/gas is pulled through it can be used to gather so much information.

One last thought - how much does your energy usage spike when you get up?

I don't turn any lights on (no need its light outside) I boil the kettle once for a cup of coffee. I don't watch TV in the morning. So my spike for the 1st hour is 1 boiled kettle....barely a blip in the grand scheme of things. Of course if I'm home all day then that kettle is going to be boiled more and there will be a shower at some point....hardly a way to pinpoint exactly when I get up though.

And of course I could opt for monthly reads anyway which makes this information exactly the same as if using a dumb meter.

[PunterNumber69]

But how old/efficient is the kettle? Or the washing machine? Or any other appliance Seriously you're stretching if you think smart meter data can be used to accurately confirm any of what you claim.

Smart meters can not confirm whether you have cavity wall insulation or not. All they measure is the amount of electricity/gas i consume. I might have my boiler going all day because its ancient and inefficient. I might have it going all day because I have poor insulation. Or old windows. Or keep my doors open to air my house. Or because I like my house to be super hot. I might not use my boiler much because I never bathe/shower and have an oil heater I use.

How on earth do you think a smart meter can tell I'm using an old or new appliance? It might be brand new but stupidly cheap and not very good. Or it might be ancient but super reliable.

Did I boil my kettle 3 times in the morning or use my toaster or hobbs to boil an egg?

Honestly it baffles me how people can think a machine that literally records what electricity/gas is pulled through it can be used to gather so much information.

One last thought - how much does your energy usage spike when you get up?

I don't turn any lights on (no need its light outside) I boil the kettle once for a cup of coffee. I don't watch TV in the morning. So my spike for the 1st hour is 1 boiled kettle....barely a blip in the grand scheme of things. Of course if I'm home all day then that kettle is going to be boiled more and there will be a shower at some point....hardly a way to pinpoint exactly when I get up though.

And of course I could opt for monthly reads anyway which makes this information exactly the same as if using a dumb meter.

Possibly because I know someone in the energy industry and they have used smart meter data to determine exactly the things I listed. If you have some customers with other smart home tech like a smart boiler or thermostat you can see how long their property takes to reach a specific temperature and when their heating turns off. Combine this info with other data like info about the types of houses in the area then you can identify trends and similarities between different types of property.

You can determine how old an appliance is because the older ones use more energy to do a task e.g. your tumble dryer may need to be on for longer and it make have a heating element of 5 KW, so can see when it gets turned on and off as the energy consumption will go up by this amount for an hour or so and then back down again.

When you get up you might use an electric razor, extractor fan in bathroom, lights in the winter, open the fridge door, use the toaster, use a hair dryer to dry your hair, stop charging your phone, use an electric power shower - they all cause changes from the low consumption when you were in bed.

It's about combining data from multiple sources to give you a view of energy consumption, appliance info and info on the energy efficiency of properties in different areas and of different ages.

The data will also be used to understand the load required on the National Grid at different times of the day and how this changes over time with the introduction of electric cars and smart appliances such as washing machines and tumble dryers with timers which allow you to run them in the early morning and time of use tariiffs which encourage people to shift their energy consumption to times when it is cheaper to use.

Why do you think they ask if they can take intervals reads every hour or half hour?

[MilleMiglia]

I had one fitted a few months back, after having had letters about them for quite some time. It has proved useful as a reminder that I've left something on, such as the immersion heater. Electricity usage is also accurately recorded - no more estimated bills, or having to get meter readings.

   

[Blackpool Rock]

Can't remember the last time anyone physically read either of my meters despite it being law that it needs doing every couple of years (I think).

I just send them my readings by e-mail every quarter.

My usage is really low compared to other people but I only put heating and lights etc on when I need to, perhaps a benefit of being a single bloke whereas i've lived with women who bang on about environmental issues then put the heating on rather than a jumper etc but also open the window at the same time as they want Fresh Air FFS 

I've had people phone me saying they can save me money and then don't believe me when I tell them what my monthly direct debit is claiming I must be wrong 

[Horseman]

Possibly because I know someone in the energy industry and they have used smart meter data to determine exactly the things I listed. If you have some customers with other smart home tech like a smart boiler or thermostat you can see how long their property takes to reach a specific temperature and when their heating turns off. Combine this info with other data like info about the types of houses in the area then you can identify trends and similarities between different types of property.

You can determine how old an appliance is because the older ones use more energy to do a task e.g. your tumble dryer may need to be on for longer and it make have a heating element of 5 KW, so can see when it gets turned on and off as the energy consumption will go up by this amount for an hour or so and then back down again.

When you get up you might use an electric razor, extractor fan in bathroom, lights in the winter, open the fridge door, use the toaster, use a hair dryer to dry your hair, stop charging your phone, use an electric power shower - they all cause changes from the low consumption when you were in bed.

It's about combining data from multiple sources to give you a view of energy consumption, appliance info and info on the energy efficiency of properties in different areas and of different ages.

The data will also be used to understand the load required on the National Grid at different times of the day and how this changes over time with the introduction of electric cars and smart appliances such as washing machines and tumble dryers with timers which allow you to run them in the early morning and time of use tariiffs which encourage people to shift their energy consumption to times when it is cheaper to use.

Why do you think they ask if they can take intervals reads every hour or half hour?

I do work in the energy industry, note thats ME and not a friend.

Smart meters can not gather that information you are suggesting, at best you can make an educated guess. They literally record usage. Now things are in the works to change that. Smart appliances and being able to program appliances to come on at "off peak" times. Its all very interesting though I have more questions than answers on a lot of it (questions that people who are in the loop developing these things have not even answered to my satisfaction but they're clever people and I'm sure know way more than I do). I'm moderately concerned with the idea of everyone's energy prices becoming flexible based on current nationwide usage but we'll see how that works before I condemn the idea entirely.

Little test for you - go to any energy companies website and start the sign up as a new customer. At the part where they want to give a quote say you don't have usage details and go through the whole "how many rooms, how many people live here etc." questionnaire that will then use that information to estimate your bills on averages.

Now be marvelled at the accuracy.......or be part of the approximately 95% of people that don't fall into that "average" usage bracket because the data used to work out that average is not particularly great (admittedly at this point its because people don't know the answer to things like how well insulated is your property half the time)

The preference is 30 minute reads - for much the reason you suggested. To allow the industry as a whole to better determine when the national spikes are and where the greatest load requirements are throughout the day.

Your friend has at best made some educated guess - I've done similar. Ultimately though he's blowing smoke up your ass and pretending he has more information than he does. All I can tell is that someone has used X amount of electricity and Y amount of gas in a 30 minute window (or 1 hour window, or 1 day window or 1 month window, depends on what the customer has opted for)

Now using that information I could guess that all someone has done is boil a kettle and left his TV on standby. Or of course I can look at several reads in succession and guess that someone has had their tumble dryer running...or maybe they sat in their hot tub? Or maybe there's more people living there than I'm guessing and that good ole kettle has been doing over time?

There are times that the guesses are more likely. Ah yes this person has an electric car based on that over night usage. Of course the fact that that person has a car charging station fitted may have given that game away already.

TLDR: Your friend can not determine any of that with any degree of accuracy based on meter reads. Which is literally the only information he has. You certainly can't determine whether a house is insulated or not without a lot more information to work with. All you can do is guess work.

[Horseman]

Can't remember the last time anyone physically read either of my meters despite it being law that it needs doing every couple of years (I think).

I just send them my readings by e-mail every quarter.

My usage is really low compared to other people but I only put heating and lights etc on when I need to, perhaps a benefit of being a single bloke whereas i've lived with women who bang on about environmental issues then put the heating on rather than a jumper etc but also open the window at the same time as they want Fresh Air FFS 

I've had people phone me saying they can save me money and then don't believe me when I tell them what my monthly direct debit is claiming I must be wrong 

I believe the law is "attempt" to read the meter. IE a meter reader knocks on your door, no ones home so thats the attempt. And something in the back of my head is saying you're right and its every 2 years. But I'm not 100% certain.

They should just ask for you annual usage figures (found on your bills) Then they can tell you if they really can save you money or not. Anyone saying they can save you money when all they do is take you DD amounts is lying.
 

[PunterNumber69]

TLDR: Your friend can not determine any of that with any degree of accuracy based on meter reads. Which is literally the only information he has. You certainly can't determine whether a house is insulated or not without a lot more information to work with. All you can do is guess work.

Yes, it's all educated guesses. It always will be unless you're standing next to the customer when they do something.  Even it's only correct in 60% of cases it will be better than nothing and they can use it to target you for marketing of new products and services.

British Gas used to have a facility on their website to allow you to compare your energy consumption with the consumption for similar customers in the area.  To use it you had to provide info on how many TVs, people, washing machines, etc. you had. They almost made it a game. By doing so they captured data about their customers and their properties.  If you add your interval smart meter reads to that data then you can do more.

[JamesKW]

Why do you need a smart reader,it doesnt do anything except make their life easier,the less things scammers can use to hack into your house the better.

[PunterNumber69]

Why do you need a smart reader,it doesnt do anything except make their life easier,the less things scammers can use to hack into your house the better.

You can't hack into a house via a smart meter.

All they could do is potentially disconnect your energy supply by doing a remote disconnect.  The meter itself isn't connected to anything else in your house.

[JamesKW]

You can't hack into a house via a smart meter.

All they could do is potentially disconnect your energy supply by doing a remote disconnect.  The meter itself isn't connected to anything else in your house.

External Link/Members Only

If its connected to wifi you can use it to hack into anything,have you not heard of hacking through inaminate objects.

[PunterNumber69]

External Link/Members Only

If its connected to wifi you can use it to hack into anything,have you not heard of hacking through inaminate objects.

But it's not connected to wi-fi.

The meter uses a mobile network connection to talk to its system and the in home display uses a network which is separate from your wi-fi.

[Horseman]

Yes, it's all educated guesses. It always will be unless you're standing next to the customer when they do something.  Even it's only correct in 60% of cases it will be better than nothing and they can use it to target you for marketing of new products and services.

British Gas used to have a facility on their website to allow you to compare your energy consumption with the consumption for similar customers in the area.  To use it you had to provide info on how many TVs, people, washing machines, etc. you had. They almost made it a game. By doing so they captured data about their customers and their properties.  If you add your interval smart meter reads to that data then you can do more.

Just like to point out - BG asked you to provide the information they didn't get it from your energy usage. To even suggest it would be right 60% of the time is overly optimistic. You'd be surprised at the number of times I've uttered the phrase "No I can't tell you what you're using, I'm not in your house. You need to give me that information if you want me to look into your usage....." People are often surprised that I can only tell them how much energy they've used and not on what exactly they've used it on.

You are 100% right about using SM's to hack into someone's house.......though again future developments suggest that smart meters will eventually be connected to smart appliances. Hopefully still some time away for that to be anywhere near the norm though!

[Gordon Bennett]

They get 24 readings a day, so based on your energy consumption they know:

- what time you get up
- what time you go to bed
- if you're WFH
- if you're away on holiday
- if you have an electric car
- what major appliances you have and when you use them
- approximately how many people are in your household
- what time you made a cuppa

Maybe that info will help them identify demand on a microlevel and fine tune their generating and input to the network to make it more efficient with less waste?

[PunterNumber69]

Maybe that info will help them identify demand on a microlevel and fine tune their generating and input to the network to make it more efficient with less waste?

Yes, that is part of it. Usually generation plants get told to generate a certain amount of electricity at different times of the day. If they fail to deliver it then they get fined. If electric cars take off and people start charging them overnight, then there will be a big change in the load profiles they use for estimating the generation requirements, so they need more accurate usage figures for different parts of the grid. The UK needs a lot of new generation capacity as coal power stations shutdown. New nuclear ones take a long time to build and at the moment they're seen as the cleanest way of meeting the electricty needs of the country.

[george r]

Had one for a while ,it saves me reading the meters but doesn't save any money

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Yes, that is part of it. Usually generation plants get told to generate a certain amount of electricity at different times of the day. If they fail to deliver it then they get fined. If electric cars take off and people start charging them overnight, then there will be a big change in the load profiles they use for estimating the generation requirements, so they need more accurate usage figures for different parts of the grid. The UK needs a lot of new generation capacity as coal power stations shutdown. New nuclear ones take a long time to build and at the moment they're seen as the cleanest way of meeting the electricty needs of the country.

Absolutly!, more wind mills means more back up an thats Gas, more carbon its all bollicks. We're still using Coal when the wind is low and demand high..

What we need is new modular nuclear. Rolls Royce are pushing for it but the Indians or Chinese will get them first and flog them to us as usual..

Usefull site

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[Blackpool Rock]

Absolutly!, more wind mills means more back up an thats Gas, more carbon its all bollicks. We're still using Coal when the wind is low and demand high..

What we need is new modular nuclear. Rolls Royce are pushing for it but the Indians or Chinese will get them first and flog them to us as usual..

Usefull site

External Link/Members Only

Think you said similar on another thread, could have been about electric cars 

Good to see you have changed you mind about wind though being the primary source therefore needing back up when required however the spin you put on it is misleading.
It implies that we are producing more carbon by having to have gas as a back up to wind whereas the previous situation was to have little or no wind and for all of that to come from fossil fuels which would have permanently been producing more carbon.

As for coal we only used coal for about 1% of electric last year and have gone for months at a time without using it

As on the other thread you have decided to ignore the future option of capturing the excess energy produced by wind & solar etc to store hydrogen which can then be used as fuel when the wind isn't blowing enough.

Nuclear may be carbon free when producing but you also neglect to consider the decommissioning aspect

This is useful for a snapshot of what's being used to generate electric live
 External Link/Members Only

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This article has an interesting comment about nuclear too, so much for being more reliable than the wind 
Finally nuclear had a year to forgot, output down 11% YoY to 50.3 TWh as statutory and unplanned outages took their toll.

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[PunterNumber69]

Absolutly!, more wind mills means more back up an thats Gas, more carbon its all bollicks. We're still using Coal when the wind is low and demand high..

What we need is new modular nuclear. Rolls Royce are pushing for it but the Indians or Chinese will get them first and flog them to us as usual..

Usefull site

External Link/Members Only

I've read about the work Rolls Royce are doing. I'm not entirely sure that I want lots of small nuclear reactors lying around the place.  I think it takes a lot of experience to be properly managing and operating them, so getting enough people with experience will be difficult. It's an interesting idea though.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Good to see you have changed you mind about wind though being the primary source therefore needing back up when required however the spin you put on it is misleading.
It implies that we are producing more carbon by having to have gas as a back up to wind whereas the previous situation was to have little or no wind and for all of that to come from fossil fuels which would have permanently been producing more carbon.

Well lets think this thru.

So we increase our reliance on wind and renewables. OK now what as has happened most of the last month the wind has been in the doldrums so when the wind is low then the gas compensates by rising.

So build ever more renewables and when they dont produce, what are you going the use to back that up with?, say we have a 30 GW Wind capacity and thats down to say a few GW like what does happen so what are you going to do the replace that with build ever more Gas fired plant?. Burn more Carbon?

I very much doubt that if we covered every bloody square mile of the UK and what 12 miles out?, would it generate enough even if we converted a supposed surpus to Hydrogen?.

And do bear in mind that if we're doing away with Gas boilers for home heating where is that energy to come from?.
Let alone charging electric cars..

We do oddley enough have a bit more Nuclear capacity in the 2 GW French interconnector as most all of the French power is Nuclear and quite a bit of Hydro;!...

Have a look at this site from time to time, and you'll see the the UK is a relativly rather windy place, the rest of lower europe is not so wind driven..

External Link/Members Only

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I've read about the work Rolls Royce are doing. I'm not entirely sure that I want lots of small nuclear reactors lying around the place.  I think it takes a lot of experience to be properly managing and operating them, so getting enough people with experience will be difficult. It's an interesting idea though.

Well other countries are doing the same as what Rolls are proposeing. I rather expect they will devlop it and sell it back to us;(.

Nuclear isn't as bad as what we perceive it to be..

[PunterNumber69]

Well other countries are doing the same as what Rolls are proposeing. I rather expect they will devlop it and sell it back to us;(.

Nuclear isn't as bad as what we perceive it to be..

Aren't they taking the tech they use for nuclear submarine reactors and creating mini power stations for a town or similar?

[Blackpool Rock]

Good to see you have changed you mind about wind though being the primary source therefore needing back up when required however the spin you put on it is misleading.
It implies that we are producing more carbon by having to have gas as a back up to wind whereas the previous situation was to have little or no wind and for all of that to come from fossil fuels which would have permanently been producing more carbon.

Well lets think this thru.

So we increase our reliance on wind and renewables. OK now what as has happened most of the last month the wind has been in the doldrums so when the wind is low then the gas compensates by rising.

So build ever more renewables and when they dont produce, what are you going the use to back that up with?, say we have a 30 GW Wind capacity and thats down to say a few GW like what does happen so what are you going to do the replace that with build ever more Gas fired plant?. Burn more Carbon?

I very much doubt that if we covered every bloody square mile of the UK and what 12 miles out?, would it generate enough even if we converted a supposed surpus to Hydrogen?.

And do bear in mind that if we're doing away with Gas boilers for home heating where is that energy to come from?.
Let alone charging electric cars..

We do oddley enough have a bit more Nuclear capacity in the 2 GW French interconnector as most all of the French power is Nuclear and quite a bit of Hydro;!...

Have a look at this site from time to time, and you'll see the the UK is a relativly rather windy place, the rest of lower europe is not so wind driven..

External Link/Members Only

We've had all these discussions before though and yet again you are trotting out the same lines about how the wind doesn't blow all the time 

We all know the wind doesn't blow all the time and nobody is saying that it should be our only energy source however it is an increasingly important part of an overall energy strategy.
And yet again you conveniently ignore the option of storing hydrogen when there is excess wind / solar to use when there isn't enough, and this despite admitting the UK is a "Rather windy place"
I couldn't care less whether the rest of Europe is or not, they can make their own decisions on how to produce power, all i'm concerned about is that the UK is able to provide enough power for it's requirements and be self sufficient with perhaps an occasions requirement from Europe and in turn they also draw on us when we have excess wind power 

What I don't want is for us to be reliant on the likes of Putin should he decide to pull the plug or hike the price up 

[winkywanky]

Germany gets over half its gas from Russia.

One wonders whether Ms. Merkel would treat Putin's Russia with the amount of disdain they truly deserve, when they control the gas tap?

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Right then..

The wind then doesen't blow consistently enough to provide the power we require. We can't depend on installed capacity already, wind down = gas up and so it see-saws around more wind then more fossil to back that up and it seems to me that Wind won't provide the surplus power to convert to stored Hydrogen etc we need anyway.

And yes, relative to most all of Europe the UK and Eire, Bristish isles, are the windiest place in Europe but the wind is very inconsisntent.

Today right now Gridwatch says that the wind is "Wind 1.14GW (3.83%)" bugger all really. Solar is doing better some 5 GW but come sundown.. They are using some Coal right now to fill in

Still intresting reading of micro Nuclear power here, a variant of Modular Nuclear... Desite the batteries misomer..


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[Watts.E.Dunn]

Germany gets over half its gas from Russia.

One wonders whether Ms. Merkel would treat Putin's Russia with the amount of disdain they truly deserve, when they control the gas tap?

Course she won't, and what stupid Bint shut the countries Nuclear down under pressure form the greenie brigade etc?..

And them like us import from Nuke powered France!!..

[radioman33]

They won’t work with the new hydrogen boilers with the greeer future planned.Personally I wouldn’t get one as if I wanted to change supplier I would need to get a new meter as some not compatible.I have no problems reading my meter it’s  more accurate aswell.Its been a total waste of money the smart meter rollout.

[CoolTiger]

Hydrogen boilers could cause four times as many explosions as gas

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[petermisc]

Are they proposing carting hydrogen around in road tankers to everyone's house, when we have a perfectly good gas distribution network already in place?  Madness if they are, both from safety and environmental perspectives.

If they use the existing distribution network, they will surely have to "water-down" the calorific value of the hydrogen (by adding an inert gas) to something akin to the current gas supply - so surely it will be little more explosive?

[winkywanky]

Would they not have to make it denser to avoid leakage too?

[petermisc]

Would they not have to make it denser to avoid leakage too?

And add on the smell too, like they do with natural gas, so you can smell if there is a leak.  Coal gas had the smell ready built-in.