If you are caught in a raid, what happens and what to do?

[AnthG]

I know I am worrying un-needlessly but I have read this post of what occurs if you are involved in a raid and it has annoyed me enough to want to post it on the main forum and discuss it here

if you get caught in a brothel by police they confirm who you are first, so you have to show true ID, they check it, make you write a statement, how you made the appointment etc, what was discussed first, did you know you would get sex. They then check the girl's ID and the story, if it matches with yours they let you go as you haven't done anything illegal and you are classed as a witness. Saw this on a forum somewhere, can't find it now.

However, they ask the girl if she has been coerced, trafficked etc. if she says yes then you are in deep, deep do do. You will end up in court.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=45445.50

The first part says effectively 'if you are caught in a raid the police make you write a statement'. But then the second part says, 'if what you say matches the girl, then they let you go. But then the third part says "if they find the girl is trafficked, then you are in deep trouble".

Suggesting the police then use your own witness statement as evidence to prosecute you if either you say something and the girl says differently, or if the girl claims, or is working against her will and you didn't know it.

This is a scenario I do not like as you are volunteering info to then be used right back against you. Has anyone been in an actual raid and confirm that is correct? Has anyone who has been in a raid just turned around and said "you know what, I do not want to give you a statement, as I have done nothing wrong" and then been just let to go on their way. Or have they been arrested for saying that?

I googled this and this website came up

External Link/Members Only

Q539: Is there a legal requirement to give a witness statement to the police?
Whilst there is no legal requirement to give a witness statement to the police there is a moral duty on each of us to help the police with their enquiries.

The other thing I found on googling this was this website

External Link/Members Only

Where a solicitor (albeit based in the USA) listed 10 very good it seemed reasons to say nothing to the police when you are suspected of something. And if the police are suspecting you of a crime then they always say you have a right to remain silent.

My honest thoughts are if I am caught in a raid I would give them my name and address, but then say "I am sorry but I don't want to provide you with a statement as I have done nothing wrong here".

It seems the sensible thing to do, as I don't want to risk giving them info that could come back and bite me, and plus I do not want to offer them info that they could use against the girl or the agency. But the flipside of that is, I just have the feeling the police get awkward and aggressive.

[Jimmyredcab]

The odds of being present when the police raid a brothel are about the same as getting 5 numbers on the National Lottery.

If it did happen to me I would give my name and address but I would refuse to provide them with any other information, let them charge me -------------------- I have done nothing illegal.

You quote an American solicitor, prostitution is illegal in most of America.   

[AnthG]

You quote an American solicitor, prostitution is illegal in most of America.   

I quoted the american solicitor, but it wasn't on the subject of prostitution. It was on the general situation of should I ever say anything to the police.

And his advice was, without a solicitor there too advising you in advance. Don't ever do it and here is 10 reasons why not. Which seems very sensible info for the UK too.

[Jimmyredcab]

You said this ------------

" I just have the feeling the police get awkward and aggressive."

Yes, they may be pissed off because you refuse to help them ------------------- but the police don't beat you up for simply not helping them, despite what some on here might say.

Just be polite but firm -------------  " I prefer to not comment."

[steel14]

Is it same in America though that a court is allowed to draw inferences as to why you refused to answer questions. That's the point of the bit of the caution after you have the right to remain silent, I.e. It may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Basically a judge/jury would be more likely to think you guilty of something because if you are innocent why wouldn't you tell them?

[maxxblue]

I previously had similar concerns AnthG, but was reassured from commments on UKP.

I understand that Silverado has worked in legal services, and he commented:

1. My question is, if one is caught in a brothel/massage parlour in a police raid, what is the best strategy to adopt?

Your chances of being caught in a brothel raid are extremely  slim. As others have said, don’t be gobby with the police. They don’t like it. There’s a time and place for it. Being caught in a brothel wearing just a condom, probably isn’t the right time. Chances are that you’ll just be asked to get dressed and leave. Best to do that without any fuss. Don’t insist on a refund. Watch when you leave, in case the media are outside taking photos. If you’ve parked your car outside consider whether it’s actually a good idea to walk over to it. It may be best to leave it and come back later.

2. Do I have the right not to reveal my name?

The police may or may not take punters names. There are very few circumstances where it’s a criminal offence not to give your name etc. to the police. Being caught in a brothel raid isn’t one of them. There may be consequences though.

3. What would happen if I decided not to reveal my name?

If the police are told at the pre-raid briefing back at the station to make sure that they take names then they’re going to be very reluctant to let you go without doing so. That’s when they use the “Ways and Means Act”. They could start talking about coerced foreign girls. That may be of concern if you’re with a Romanian girl etc. They could say that you match the description of the brothel-owner and they need to eliminate you from their enquiries. There isn’t actually a Ways and Means Act. It just means that if the police want to do something very often they’ll find a way of doing it.

Personally I would give my details, because I doubt that anything would come of it. It’s not illegal to visit a brothel. It’s very easy for the CPS to prove that premises are a brothel. They don’t need punters as witnesses, and besides punters make very poor witnesses in brothel-keeping cases. Your details will get written down in the pocket-book, and that’ll probably be the end of it.

Former Labour MP Joe Ashton was caught up in a brothel raid in 1998 with a 21 year old Thai girl in Northampton. He refused to give his name, much to the frustration of the police. Eventually they let him go, but rather sneakily followed him to his car and got his registration number. These days I think they’d just threaten to arrest for suspicion of paying a girl subjected to force etc.

If you do give a false name (which I wouldn’t recommend) then you could be facing the more serious offence of obstructing a police officer in the execution of his duty.

4. If I decide not to reveal my name, do the police have the right to search me and find out my details from my wallet?

Generally, no. Not unless you’re arrested.

5. I had initally been concerned about being raided in a brothel without realising that it was a brothel, but now understand that this is not illegal for a punter - am I correct in thinking this?

Yes. That’s correct. It’s not illegal to visit a brothel or pay for sex. It’s illegal to pay or promise to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force (ie. force, threats, coercion or deception). I’ve yet to come across a single reported case of anyone actually having been convicted in the Magistrates court since the law came into force 4 years ago.

6. Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

Personally. I would never accept a caution for this offence. The CPS will be very reluctant to prosecute. The offence was clearly designed to deter punters and not to be used to prosecute them. In the unlikely event that it ever got that far, you’d be well advised though to seek specialist legal advice and not rely on what you read in a punting forum.

Hope this helps!

[bricky daz]

Dont get me started on the pi........police
they are public servants,they work for us
keep this mind set!are you seriously thinking you have to answer to some jumped up little prick in a clown suit,
consenting adults,remain silent,reading the meter,the list is endless,
dont even talk to them,the saying goes` he who makes the claim has the burden of proof `
let them fail at proving anything.
just a bunch of revenue collecters,thats all they are.

[Silverado]

if you get caught in a brothel by police they confirm who you are first, so you have to show true ID, they check it, make you write a statement, how you made the appointment etc, what was discussed first, did you know you would get sex. They then check the girl's ID and the story, if it matches with yours they let you go as you haven't done anything illegal and you are classed as a witness. Saw this on a forum somewhere, can't find it now.

However, they ask the girl if she has been coerced, trafficked etc. if she says yes then you are in deep, deep do do. You will end up in court.

I know I am worrying un-needlessly but I have read this post of what occurs if you are involved in a raid and it has annoyed me enough to want to post it on the main forum and discuss it here

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=45445.50

The first part says effectively 'if you are caught in a raid the police make you write a statement'. But then the second part says, 'if what you say matches the girl, then they let you go. But then the third part says "if they find the girl is trafficked, then you are in deep trouble".

Suggesting the police then use your own witness statement as evidence to prosecute you if either you say something and the girl says differently, or if the girl claims, or is working against her will and you didn't know it.

This is a scenario I do not like as you are volunteering info to then be used right back against you. Has anyone been in an actual raid and confirm that is correct? Has anyone who has been in a raid just turned around and said "you know what, I do not want to give you a statement, as I have done nothing wrong" and then been just let to go on their way. Or have they been arrested for saying that?

I googled this and this website came up

External Link/Members Only

The other thing I found on googling this was this website

External Link/Members Only

Where a solicitor (albeit based in the USA) listed 10 very good it seemed reasons to say nothing to the police when you are suspected of something. And if the police are suspecting you of a crime then they always say you have a right to remain silent.

My honest thoughts are if I am caught in a raid I would give them my name and address, but then say "I am sorry but I don't want to provide you with a statement as I have done nothing wrong here".

It seems the sensible thing to do, as I don't want to risk giving them info that could come back and bite me, and plus I do not want to offer them info that they could use against the girl or the agency. But the flipside of that is, I just have the feeling the police get awkward and aggressive.

The police don't generally take statements from punters, and you're not obliged to give one.  Punters do not make good witnesses. They usually have their own interests to protect. It really isn't difficult for the prosecution to prove that a place is a brothel. Evidence from test purchase officers together with evidence of girls in lingerie, adverts, cash, condoms and other paraphernalia usually found in brothels is quite sufficient.

It's not illegal to pay for sexual services in a brothel, unless the girl is under 18 or subject to exploitative conduct/ coercion. I haven't seen a single case reported in the media of anyone being convicted in the magistrates court since the new offence was introduced in April 2010.

This is what Lord McColl said in the House of Lords last month during a debate on the Modern Slavery Bill:

"In 2009 I supported the introduction of Section 14 of the Policing and Crime Act, which made it an offence to pay for sex with someone who is coerced. This might sound like the perfect solution but it has not worked in practice. Evidence of that was clear from those who contributed to an all-party parliamentary group inquiry, of which I was part, which ran from 2013 to 2014. We published our report in March this year and I encourage noble Lords to review its findings. The number of convictions under this offence has been very low. In 2012-13 there was not a single prosecution or conviction. This offence has not done what we hoped it would do."

Prior to July 2012 it wasn't even a recordable offence.

Staying silent/going "no comment" is a good starting point, but it shouldn't be a mantra to be blindly obeyed. A little bit of interaction with the police might in some circumstances be appropriate because you might not want to come across as being obstructive.

Generally though, the police aren't interested in punters.

[fisherofsouls]

For the more adventurous....

If you are sensible, and are carrying (as you should be):

1. No form or ID or card that can identify you personally (i.e. nothing in your wallet !)

2. An unregistered Oyster card or other pre-paid transport ticket to get you home

3. A PAYG mobile that:
(a) you bought for cash
(b) have only ever topped up with vouchers you bought for cash
(c) you have never once used to make or receive calls or texts from any number to which you can be personally linked
(d) you have never once used to access any internet service to which you can be personally linked
(e) you never switch on until you are least a mile from your home address

then you might get away with giving Police false details...

TBH though, it's hard to see how it could be worth the risk of committing such a serious offence unless you were pretty sure the girls was under 18 or coerced, and even then it could well end up being an aggravating factor when the judge comes to pass sentence...

If you do decide to gamble and give false info, you'd better hope you stood up your fake identity properly:

They say "Name ?" you answer "James Baker"
They say "DOB ?" you answer "3rd Jan 1978"
They say "Current address ?" you answer "Flat 99, 100 High St, London XXX XXX"

OK, so they carry on talking to you while another officer makes a phone call...

* When they ask, "how long have you lived at Flat 99, etc." and you say "err, err, about 4 years" and they do a quick check of the Electoral Roll and someone else's name entirely is on it and they say "why is that ?", what do you say ?

* When they ask "who can I call to confirm the details you have just provided", what do you say ?  That you are single, have no friends or family, no employer .... ?  Or give them a mate's number and keep your fingers crossed ?

* In this stressful situation, after 10 mins of sweating, will you be able to remember that DOB  ?

The point is, any copper with more than 5 minutes on the job will be assessing how you answer as well as what you answer...  if they're not happy, a reason will be found to detain you until they can confirm who you really are.  If that turns out to be someone other than who you claimed, then you're fucked...

[smiths]

I know I am worrying un-needlessly but I have read this post of what occurs if you are involved in a raid and it has annoyed me enough to want to post it on the main forum and discuss it here

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=45445.50

The first part says effectively 'if you are caught in a raid the police make you write a statement'. But then the second part says, 'if what you say matches the girl, then they let you go. But then the third part says "if they find the girl is trafficked, then you are in deep trouble".

Suggesting the police then use your own witness statement as evidence to prosecute you if either you say something and the girl says differently, or if the girl claims, or is working against her will and you didn't know it.

This is a scenario I do not like as you are volunteering info to then be used right back against you. Has anyone been in an actual raid and confirm that is correct? Has anyone who has been in a raid just turned around and said "you know what, I do not want to give you a statement, as I have done nothing wrong" and then been just let to go on their way. Or have they been arrested for saying that?

I googled this and this website came up

External Link/Members Only

The other thing I found on googling this was this website

External Link/Members Only

Where a solicitor (albeit based in the USA) listed 10 very good it seemed reasons to say nothing to the police when you are suspected of something. And if the police are suspecting you of a crime then they always say you have a right to remain silent.

My honest thoughts are if I am caught in a raid I would give them my name and address, but then say "I am sorry but I don't want to provide you with a statement as I have done nothing wrong here".

It seems the sensible thing to do, as I don't want to risk giving them info that could come back and bite me, and plus I do not want to offer them info that they could use against the girl or the agency. But the flipside of that is, I just have the feeling the police get awkward and aggressive.

Good advice has been posted on here before on this. Follow Silverados advice above is my advice. I wouldnt advise giving a false name as that is an offence.

I would give my name and address but refuse to say anything more until i spoke to a Solicitor would be what i would say. At that stage i wouldnt know if a WG or WGs had been coerced or were underage for certain so not saying anything would be the smart thing to do as i see it. As has been said a punter would be unlucky to get caught up in a raid, i havent in over 30 years of punting in brothels.

Its also the case a premises is a brothel if only 1 WG works out of it BUT on another day another WG works out of it, it doesnt need to be 2 WGs at the same time. Some Parlours have only 1 WG working per day but its still a brothel if the police have the evidence of different WGs working out of it. Only an Indie working totally alone at ALL times avoids the premises being a brothel though unless the WG owns the freehold she could well be breaking the terms of her mortgage, lease or tenancy.