What does bareback feels like?

[punk]

given that sexual activity commences at the same age and continues at the same level, and no of partners in much of the world, with the same sporadic or non use of condoms, you would expect to see the same level of hiv, in London, Rio or cape town, factor in the free movement of populations, this is not the case. Which would indicate that the cause of significantly higher rates in certain areas of the world, has a cause other than sexual activity. You would also have expected to have seen a global increase in hiv after the the world cup in south Africa,"a perfect storm" for spreading a sexual epidemic, but there has been no spike. I am not postulating any reason for the high level of aids in Africa, merely suggesting that sex seems the improbable reason.

eh it might have some thing to do with the black death, seems that the same virus that infected europe left an anti-body that has made it harder not impossible to become infected with hiv, for some of the population.

[willie loman]

I take your point, but I wouldn't want to be saddled with any chronic disease, fatal or no.  Antiretroviral drugs aren't like taking a couple of paracetomol for a headache. They can have some nasty side-effects and complications.  Plus you're signing up to a lifetime of regular blood tests and hospital appointments to get your CD4 counts and viral load monitored.  There are also other nasties like Hep B & Hep C (you can and should vaccinate against Hep B but it's still only 95% effective) which cause liver cancer and cirrhosis.

At the time of the big HIV campaigns, it WAS a death sentence, but we've actually made pretty damn good progress in treating it.  It didn't become widespread in US/EU heterosexual non-injecting drug users until after effective treatments were available, which is why you haven't seen mass fatalities in that population.
given the high percentage of bisexual men who frequent gay saunas etc, it should have appeared simultaneously in the heterosexual community, if cause of infection was vaginal intercourse??????

[willie loman]

eh it might have some thing to do with the black death, seems that the same virus that infected europe left an anti-body that has made it harder not impossible to become infected with hiv, for some of the population.

Gay men and drug users in Britain not to mention victims of contaminated blood transfusions, did not benefit from this immunity.

[Private Parts]

who said any thing about shagging monkeys.

Sorry Punk irony got the better of me
PP

[punk]

Gay men and drug users in Britain not to mention victims of contaminated blood transfusions, did not benefit from this immunity.

listen i not talking about sticking your cock up a blokes arse or direct blood transfusions.

External Link/Members Only

genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news

External Link/Members Only

[punk]

Sorry Punk irony got the better of me
PP

np, though saying that we seem to have become infected through the cutting of the great apes, which have a virus similar to hiv, but have a natural resistance

[Private Parts]

np, though saying that we seem to have become infected through the cutting of the great apes, which have a virus similar to hiv, but have a natural resistance

Hard work this is.
Not saying we can lay any claim to a divine knowledge though,
It's still a bit uphill
PP

[punk]

External Link/Members Only

and the problem is hiv has seven different sub types.

[punk]

Hard work this is.
Not saying we can lay any claim to a divine knowledge though,
It's still a bit uphill
PP

no divine knowledge they retro engineered the virus counting back the generations of mutation and bingo there was a match going back to the 18th century with the slimier great ape version.

[jcdmj12]

eh it might have some thing to do with the black death, seems that the same virus that infected europe left an anti-body that has made it harder not impossible to become infected with hiv, for some of the population.

Black death was  caused by Yersinia pestis which is a bacterium, HIV is a virus.  The antibodies required for immunty are very different.  Smallpox is a more likely candidate if anything. Unless people are wrong about the cause of Black Death, which is possible.

[k]

given that sexual activity commences at the same age and continues at the same level, and no of partners in much of the world, with the same sporadic or non use of condoms, you would expect to see the same level of hiv, in London, Rio or cape town, factor in the free movement of populations, this is not the case. Which would indicate that the cause of significantly higher rates in certain areas of the world, has a cause other than sexual activity. You would also have expected to have seen a global increase in hiv after the the world cup in south Africa,"a perfect storm" for spreading a sexual epidemic, but there has been no spike. I am not postulating any reason for the high level of aids in Africa, merely suggesting that sex seems the improbable reason.

Unlike some STI's where the infected person continues to be sexually active, and continues to infect people, I would hazard a guess that people who have HIV (1) do not have the same inclination to have sex, their body's priority is to stay alive, (2) are less desirable to partners due to their condition, and are therefore less likely to cause an epidemic.  Against this theory is the "incubation period" for HIV being much greater.  Really need to ask people who have experienced it the timeline involved and how they felt.

[tantric talents]

Everyone needs to make their own risk-reward evaluation. As a doctor, the only thing I would say if you do BB SP regularly gets tested every few months, while HIV is an outlier (someone somewhere does get infected in the UK everyday so don't think you immune to this), I would be very surprised if you didn't test positive for things like Chlamydia at least once a year especially in metropolitan areas like London.

During a regular check up, a senior gum clinic doctor once told me that basically the disease risks were practically the same doing owo as offering unprotected vaginal sex. It makes you wonder then why girls are so happy to do owo and even cim but freak out at even the prospect of offering BB!    (Apart from the obvious risk of pregnancy of course, but the pill is free and nowadays easily available to all women.)

[rolf32313]

During a regular check up, a senior gum clinic doctor once told me that basically the disease risks were practically the same doing owo as offering unprotected vaginal sex. It makes you wonder then why girls are so happy to do owo and even cim but freak out at even the prospect of offering BB!    (Apart from the obvious risk of pregnancy of course, but the pill is free and nowadays easily available to all women.)

You either misunderstood him, he was trying to scare you off OWO or you need to find better medical advice! I don't know which but the above statement is very wrong!

[JV547845]

senior gum clinic doctor once told me that basically the disease risks were practically the same doing owo as offering unprotected vaginal sex.

Well he was wrong

[tantric talents]

You either misunderstood him, he was trying to scare you off OWO or you need to find better medical advice! I don't know which but the above statement is very wrong!

So in your opinion which diseases are easily passed to a woman via owo and cim?

[JV547845]

given that sexual activity commences at the same age and continues at the same level, and no of partners in much of the world, with the same sporadic or non use of condoms,

Oh that that were the case. Efforts to promote condom use against the normal culture of BB in Africa continue despite you being full of shit. 

a cause other than sexual activity.

Incidentally they found a water born parasite common in africa that exposes the blood stream inside the uterus making women more susceptible to pick up HIV from BB. 
External Link/Members Only

This is not the whole story however.  Africa is not the same as London you twat.  Extreme poverty versus the NHS and a lot of afluence (albeit not for everyone). 

You would also have expected to have seen a global increase in hiv after the the world cup in south Africa,"a perfect storm" for spreading a sexual epidemic, but there has been no spike. I am not postulating any reason for the high level of aids in Africa, merely suggesting that sex seems the improbable reason.

I don't think those people who could afford tickets to the world cup all went sleeping around let alone punting in the some of the most dangerous cities on earth, let alone in the slums.

[rolf32313]

So in your opinion which diseases are easily passed to a woman via owo and cim?

Right I think I see the confusion from you follow up. Their is a theoretical higher risk to women from OWO/CIM who have bad/bleeding gums. I have never seen a study done to quantify the real risk (I think one would be hard to baseline) but theoretically their is an additional risk. I doubt it is the same of BBS but it depends on the state of the receivers mouth I guess and if their mouth is in such a condition WTF are you doing putting you dick in their!

It's common advice to escorts Don't brush your teeth an hour or so before you perform this. Brushing you teeth can cause cuts/tears which if you hold the cum in you mouth could act as an entry point (same as viginal/anal tears). Again it comes down to common sense. If you the sort of person who has bleeding gum all the time this puts you at a higher risk, much the same as if your a guy who has an open sore on his dick and goes in BB.
At the end of the day medicine is a practice and you will get many different opinions on the same problem. I wouldn't believe the outlier just because it's what you want to hear but it's your life.

[tantric talents]

Right I think I see the confusion from you follow up. Their is a theoretical higher risk to women from OWO/CIM who have bad/bleeding gums. I have never seen a study done to quantify the real risk (I think one would be hard to baseline) but theoretically their is an additional risk. I doubt it is the same of BBS but it depends on the state of the receivers mouth I guess and if their mouth is in such a condition WTF are you doing putting you dick in their!

It's common advice to escorts Don't brush your teeth an hour or so before you perform this. Brushing you teeth can cause cuts/tears which if you hold the cum in you mouth could act as an entry point (same as viginal/anal tears). Again it comes down to common sense. If you the sort of person who has bleeding gum all the time this puts you at a higher risk, much the same as if your a guy who has an open sore on his dick and goes in BB.
At the end of the day medicine is a practice and you will get many different opinions on the same problem. I wouldn't believe the outlier just because it's what you want to hear but it's your life.

Well it wasn't said because it was something I wanted to hear but I just googled the nhs site External Link/Members Only
and it says, quote:
"Oral sex is the stimulation of the genitals using the mouth and tongue. It is one of the ways that sexually transmitted infections (STIs) are most frequently passed on.

You can catch an STI if you have just one sexual partner. However, the more partners you have, the greater the risk of catching an infection.

STIs that are commonly caught through oral sex are:

    gonorrhoea
    genital herpes
    syphilis 

Infections that are less frequently passed on through oral sex include:

    chlamydia
    HIV
    hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C
    genital warts
    pubic lice "

Clearly this refers to cunnilingus too but nevertheless makes interesting reading.

[rolf32313]

Well it wasn't said because it was something I wanted to hear but I just googled the nhs site External Link/Members Only
and it says, quote:
"Oral sex is the stimulation of the genitals using the mouth and tongue. It is one of the ways that sexually transmitted infections (STIs) are most frequently passed on.

You can catch an STI if you have just one sexual partner. However, the more partners you have, the greater the risk of catching an infection.

STIs that are commonly caught through oral sex are:

    gonorrhoea
    genital herpes
    syphilis 

Infections that are less frequently passed on through oral sex include:

    chlamydia
    HIV
    hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C
    genital warts
    pubic lice "

Clearly this refers to cunnilingus too but nevertheless makes interesting reading.

Do you understand the concept or relative risk? Your point was OWO is no more risky than BB which 99.999% of the time is total BS.

I wonder if you are reading to much into the "It is one of the ways that sexually transmitted infections (STIs) are most frequently passed on." You need to dig deeper into this statement, what does it mean? Well of the people who catch these a high proportion claim it was the oral which gave it to them. Could it be that more people forgo the condom with oral than sex? Almost certainly. Let's take an example:
Lets say Dan has a STD and sees 2,000 women (1,000 OWO, 1,000 just sex). Lets say the relative risks are:
OWO 1:100
BBS  1:50
PS    1:1,000,000
90% of the time Dan uses a Condon for Sex but 0 for Oral.

So in our population 10 women report catching Dan's STD from giving Oral.
2 reports catching it from Sex (1000*0.1*0.02)

So our headline is "giving oral is a common way to catch Dan's STD" but yet we know BBS is a lot more risky than OWO despite 5 times less people catching it from Dan this way.


 

[tantric talents]

Well Rolf, I was never that great at statistics - more of a chemistry man - but your statement

"Lets say the relative risks are:
OWO 1:100
BBS  1:50
PS    1:1,000,000"      is totally assumed, no?
Where do you get those odds from? I can't find them anywhere?

[willie loman]

Oh that that were the case. Efforts to promote condom use against the normal culture of BB in Africa continue despite you being full of shit. 

Incidentally they found a water born parasite common in africa that exposes the blood stream inside the uterus making women more susceptible to pick up HIV from BB. 
External Link/Members Only

This is not the whole story however.  Africa is not the same as London you twat.  Extreme poverty versus the NHS and a lot of afluence (albeit not for everyone). 
I don't think those people who could afford tickets to the world cup all went sleeping around let alone punting in the some of the most dangerous cities on earth, let alone in the slums.

You still have not provided any evidence that Africans are more promiscuous than the british, the british have led the world for years for teenage pregnancies,and condom use in Britain is sporadic at best. Other advanced countries are no better for condom use, in Russia abortion rates are extremely high for this reason. Telling Africans that its their sexual recklessness that causes aids, is plain daft,  given that their behaviour is no different sexually than ours. There is a delicious irony that a man on a forum dedicated to paying for sex with prostitutes should accuse Africans of being promiscuous,,,,,

[wristjob]

Well Rolf, I was never that great at statistics - more of a chemistry man - but your statement

"Lets say the relative risks are:
OWO 1:100
BBS  1:50
PS    1:1,000,000"      is totally assumed, no?
Where do you get those odds from? I can't find them anywhere?

I read them as examples to demonstrate the point. Perhaps this might be easier. If I see X number of prostitutes a year and usually have OWO, only ever have covered sex - 100% of anything I might catch would be from oral. Just because it happens more doesn't mean it's higher risk.


I posted a link to HIV transmission rates on P4

External Link/Members Only

Insertive penile-vaginal intercourse*   0.01–0.38%
Insertive oral intercourse*§   0–0.005%

So BBS is about 80 times as risky as OWO from the man's perspective. Much worse for a woman because firstly the transmission rates are higher but also a chance the man is bi (which makes him more likely to have HIV whereas lesbian women aren't a higher risk)

.005% = 1/20,000 chance to catch it IF they have HIV at the absolute top end. Top end probably means you have cuts on your cock, she has bleeding gums, you have flu and syphilis which both compromise your immune system. Assuming none of the above you are probably closer to 0% risk

[JV547845]

You still have not provided any evidence that Africans are more promiscuous than the british,

I don't need every variable to be different between Africa and Edinburgh to disprove your point, just one.  In any case I didn't claim Africans were any more promiscuous, not that safe promiscuity is necessarily a bad thing.  I just said condom use is lower because people have a hell of a hard time promoting their use over there.  Also education is worse, access to fresh water is worse, general health levels are worse. 

The HIV virus didn't start off uniformly across the globe, it started off a lot higher in some places than in others (particularly uninfected populations).  The epidemiology doesn't lead to the same infection rate of a virus everywhere in the world unless it's particularly successful like the common cold. 

[Private Parts]

Poverty- Education (lack of)- Lifestyle
PP

[rolf32313]

Well Rolf, I was never that great at statistics - more of a chemistry man - but your statement

"Lets say the relative risks are:
OWO 1:100
BBS  1:50
PS    1:1,000,000"      is totally assumed, no?
Where do you get those odds from? I can't find them anywhere?

They are just examples to show the point. Let me try to make it even simpler with a super simple example.

The one of the most common cause of road death for a pedestrian is being hit by a car on a standard road. The UK has many different types of road Including Motorways, duel carriage way...

I don't think you need a PhD in Statistics Just common sense to agree the following in terms of risk involved in crossing said roads (highest first).
1: Motorway
2: Duel carriage way
3: standard road (one lane each way).

But yet if you look at the raw statistics you would see that in terms of number of deaths the opposite is true. I.e. very few people get run over crossing a motorway and thus draw the incorrect conclusion that it's safer to cross a motorway that an A-Road...

To get back to our original point, you cannot look at a statement like "the most common way to catch a STD is oral" and conclude that Oral is as high or higher risk that BB. You need to look at the underlying data I.e.:
1: Number of people who do Oral Vs Sex
2: Number of people who do OWO Vs BBS
3: How true was the data? I.e. people lie, "did you use a condom", "Oh yes doc",... I can see in you body language you are either lying or very worried about something on the floor...

The figure you want is:
If I as an escort have BBS with a HIV+ guy what is the probability I will catch it? Answer ~1:1000.
If I as an escort have OWO/CIM with a HIV+ guy what is the probability I will catch it? Answer we don't know but estimated to be very low. I don't know their has been a reported case of this even.

I don't think we need to labour this point anymore, if your still unsure and worried, pop along to your GP or local clinic (preferred) for a chat BUT ask the correct question not the one which will get you the answer you want to here. Ask "Is unprotected sex no more risky with a escort that OWO"

[Private Parts]

"I don't think you need a PhD ................................. and..............................

I don't think we need to labour this point anymore, if you're still unsure and worried, pop along to your GP or local clinic (preferred) for a chat BUT ask the correct question not the one which will get you the answer you want to hear. Ask "Is unprotected sex no more risky with a escort than OWO"
Quite
PP