What the fuck? Tell me I've been stupid (EAS)

[stampjones]

This isn't about your main point, but here goes: Just bear in mind (something I was oblivious to at the time) that the kids are living in that environment too.  Every little snipe, coldness, altercation between the parents will be noticed and will build up in their minds over the years and affect them badly.  So when you arrive at the time to take your leave "amicably", in or near your 60s, with two decades of hurt and loneliness weighing you down, you may even find the kids resent you for all they've been through.  It happens.  Sorry but that's life.  So despite someone suggesting you never take advice, I'd say on the contrary, get advice and consider acting on it carefully.  Good luck.

I can testify to the truth of that as well

[jimbobted]

Interesting story and a cut above some of the more usual EAS ones.

OP, it looks to me like you wanted a fairly transactional type relationship without paying for it. I don't mean that unkindly and I'm not suggesting you wanted something for nothing.

It's just that sending an email laying out your ideas on how the relationship should proceed is hardly likely to fill a potential partner with joy and probably isn't what they're looking for. Let's be honest, she would probably get paid for that sort of thing.

I'd agree with the voices of experience on here and suggest that she's 'treated you well' and is avoiding the pitfalls of unwanted advances. People may laugh but WGs are women and have the same boundaries as others. An unexpected snog after a friendly drink is viewed very differently in this age.

Yes transactional is how I'd describe it. I was going to keep paying her for bookings, and had suggested we enjoy some more social time together and if [real name] wanted to extend that then great, but no expectation if such.
I think you're right, the unexpected snog has not gone down well - either she thinks I've taken a huge liberty or she thinks I'm after some kind of romance. All I was after really was some food and drink once a week with a nice girl and a couple of bookings a month with her, wasn't expecting monogamy or to interfere at all in the rest of her life.
Was daft of my anyway, she's 20 years younger than me, absolutely stunning and gets offers all the time. Like she'd have gone with me!

[jimbobted]

So my guess is that she probably liked you and your company, and thought it would be cool to have a friend and fuck buddy, but then felt like it could develop into something more serious with strong feelings that she wouldn't be able to control, and she nipped it in the bud.

Fuck buddy is exactly one of the ways I put it to her.
She definitely wasn't trying to scam me, I'm a pauper compared to most of her clients!

Oh well, it was nice for the very brief time it was there!

Divorce. I don't know. I think the reality is I'd end up on my own in a shitty little flat with no cash, no kids and possibly worse off emotionally than I am now.
I've never felt so low, haven't slept properly for months. I'd just started getting some proper sleep as I had something to look forward to each week, but now I'm back to insomnia and feeling down.

I don't know what the answer is.

And I never went into punting to try and find emotional support. This situation just happened. Same as nobody goes into work expecting to shag the secretary and divorce the wife, but sometimes it happens.

[Brompton]

I second what others have said, that you would probably be better off pursuing a civvie and divorcing your wife, instead of trying to hang on for another 15 years.
Good luck!

Can only agree with this advice given by a1000punts OP

I stayed in what became a loveless, sexless marriage for decades way beyond my kids becoming adults, I did everything to try & get it back on track, you are young enough to find a civvie they will give back equally what you give, in my case I’m an old git now & live with regret.

I do though have a regular SP who I’ve had for years but didn’t see for a couple of years over Covid as she returned home but we again now meet, I know it would be easy for me to get involved deeper (well years ago) but I’ve kept myself in check.

I say that as for years I know a lot about her personal life & past which we discuss over a drink & her me, she even buys me birthday & Xmas presents & I was shocked when that first happened & I get for her (I’m sure I’ll get flak here but it is what it is) We have never ‘blurred the lines’ & years ago I thought about doing so but never did.

I’ve waffled on but yes some good advice here, don’t end up someone like me mate living with life’s regrets.

[Hobbit]

Being in a sexless marriage can still work for many people, particularly if you're able get sex elsewhere as this site demonstrates, but no sex and no affection is another thing altogether.
It seems that maybe you've been vulnerable and sensitive to the apparent affection, real or not, shown to you by this woman.

Time will allow you to recover, and so will carrying on punting.

However you're only in your 40s, and when the dust has settled you may need to ask yourself whether you can improve your relationship with your wife.
Maybe some counseling?

Only you know the answer to that......good luck!

Very wise my friend. I fully agree.

My advice to the OP would be that if you are married and have children then falling for a hooker would be a huge mistake and have a detrimental effect on the children who you chose to bring into this world, maintain, educate and nurture. It is statistically proven that children from single-parent marriages do not develop as well as children from a two-parent marriage.

Hookers are for sex and nothing else. You can use them for companionship but you will be playing with fire as some of them can be very manipulative and fool you into thinking that there is more available when there isn't. It's part of their job and some people call it the Girlfriend Experience.

Having no sex with your wife isn't a problem, many men have the same issue and if you cannot communicate with her to improve that department, then try to make the emotional and intellectual side of the relationship work, if not for you then for the children's sake. I am only assuming you have children and if you don't, then my advice is still valid!

Many of us on this forum have experienced EAS to some degree including myself. But always remember that Hookers are only for sex and NEVER trust them beyond a business transaction!

[big-al93]

Fuck buddy is exactly one of the ways I put it to her.
She definitely wasn't trying to scam me, I'm a pauper compared to most of her clients!

Oh well, it was nice for the very brief time it was there!

Divorce. I don't know. I think the reality is I'd end up on my own in a shitty little flat with no cash, no kids and possibly worse off emotionally than I am now.
I've never felt so low, haven't slept properly for months. I'd just started getting some proper sleep as I had something to look forward to each week, but now I'm back to insomnia and feeling down.

I don't know what the answer is.

And I never went into punting to try and find emotional support. This situation just happened. Same as nobody goes into work expecting to shag the secretary and divorce the wife, but sometimes it happens.

The reality is that yes, to start with the kids would likely stay with your wife and supporting them while renting a flat for yourself would initially be a bit shit, but I seriously doubt that you would be emotionally worse off than at present as you would be free to start rebuilding your life. And as alluded to by myself and others may well be the best thing for the kids, unless some counselling or whatever can seriously improve the relationship between you and your wife. And by that I am not talking about your sex life, but more affection and support for each other. Reading between the lines it sounds like she may feel unsupported with the kids and itis causing animosity in the relationship, so I'd suggest that might be the best place to start a conversation, by asking how you can support her better and then moving on to the rest of it. IMHO this would be best broached whilst the kids are out of the home, so maybe see if you can get someone to have them for the weekend, cook your wife a nice meal, take a deep breath and try to communicate.

Whatever the outcome is, and that'll depend on how bad it has got and how both of you feel, I doubt you'll be in a worse position than you are now, as you sound miserable in your current situation.

[big-al93]

Very wise my friend. I fully agree.

My advice to the OP would be that if you are married and have children then falling for a hooker would be a huge mistake and have a detrimental effect on the children who you chose to bring into this world, maintain, educate and nurture. It is statistically proven that children from single-parent marriages do not develop as well as children from a two-parent marriage.

I wouldn't fully agree with this statement, as it makes all 2 parent families sound equal. When the relationship is toxic it can often be a relief for the children when it is ended, and while I agree that a 2 parent household (being married or not is irrelevent imho) that is a happy healthy relationship is the ideal, there are vast differences between that and a toxic homelife. Unfortunatley often these relationships when they end, are still toxic and the children used as pawns, or one parent tries to turn the kids against the other. So OP, if you do end up deciding to split, try very hard to make it as amicable as possible.

[Problem Child]

more affection and support for each other. Reading between the lines it sounds like she may feel unsupported with the kids and itis causing animosity in the relationship, so I'd suggest that might be the best place to start a conversation, by asking how you can support her better and then moving on to the rest of it. IMHO this would be best broached whilst the kids are out of the home, so maybe see if you can get someone to have them for the weekend, cook your wife a nice meal, take a deep breath and try to communicate.

Whatever the outcome is, and that'll depend on how bad it has got and how both of you feel, I doubt you'll be in a worse position than you are now, as you sound miserable in your current situation.

I think this 👆 is excellent advice from Big al as obviously the most important thing here is giving your boys the best possible environment that you can for their formative years.

Now just a wee thing from your op jbt and at the risk of stating the obvious (again!) and kicking a man when he’s down.. when someone (anyone) compliments you the correct answer is almost always to smile and say “thank you” 😁

[jimbobted]

I wouldn't fully agree with this statement, as it makes all 2 parent families sound equal. When the relationship is toxic it can often be a relief for the children when it is ended, and while I agree that a 2 parent household (being married or not is irrelevent imho) that is a happy healthy relationship is the ideal, there are vast differences between that and a toxic homelife. Unfortunatley often these relationships when they end, are still toxic and the children used as pawns, or one parent tries to turn the kids against the other. So OP, if you do end up deciding to split, try very hard to make it as amicable as possible.

Little chance of a split being amicable. I have tried to speak to my wife about "us" a couple of times recently. She just gets angry and starts shouting at me. Basically she's as unhappy as I am but she's perfect and everything is my fault and if I just sort myself out it would all be fine. Pointed out some of the horrible things she's done (eg on my 40th told me she hated me and wished she'd never met me) but she has excuses and reasons why those things are reasonable and, guess what, all my fault anyway!
If my elderly parents weren't still around to worry I'd probably be one of those blokes that just disappears one day and go start a new life far away, tough as that would be for me and my kids not seeing them again. I nearly told them last weekend I was thinking separation might be on the cards but didn't.

I don't think I've "fallen" for the girl in this case. But I was definitely looking forward to the potential of fuck buddy and social time with a lovely girl who shares a lot of the same sexual interests as me. I'm really annoyed with myself for having blown it so carelessly as I really think it would have helped me chill about my home life, which in turn would probably have helped that improve over time. I don't even know why I snogged her, I was preparing for the usual peck on the cheek. Fucking stupid.

Well I shall just have to dust myself off. But it has made me realise I can't keep ignoring the shitty marriage. I'm not sure I actually fancy my wife anymore, which means I don't think I'll be able to muster the effort to save it, especially as she has made crystal clear she won't be doing likewise.

[Hobbit]

I wouldn't fully agree with this statement, as it makes all 2 parent families sound equal. When the relationship is toxic it can often be a relief for the children when it is ended, and while I agree that a 2 parent household (being married or not is irrelevent imho) that is a happy healthy relationship is the ideal, there are vast differences between that and a toxic homelife. Unfortunatley often these relationships when they end, are still toxic and the children used as pawns, or one parent tries to turn the kids against the other. So OP, if you do end up deciding to split, try very hard to make it as amicable as possible.

If parents are that toxic, then they should not be having children. Yes, I agree it can be a temporary relief for the kids but the point is and was that if you have children then you have to try to make the marriage work. That means, not arguing in front of them and bringing them up as healthy as possible. Showing them love and affection and giving them the right education needed.

If 2 people are being toxic as you say, and are arguing and being manipulative then they are not trying to make the marriage work for the children. Do you see my point?

[Hobbit]

Little chance of a split being amicable. I have tried to speak to my wife about "us" a couple of times recently. She just gets angry and starts shouting at me. Basically she's as unhappy as I am but she's perfect and everything is my fault and if I just sort myself out it would all be fine. Pointed out some of the horrible things she's done (eg on my 40th told me she hated me and wished she'd never met me) but she has excuses and reasons why those things are reasonable and, guess what, all my fault anyway!
If my elderly parents weren't still around to worry I'd probably be one of those blokes that just disappears one day and go start a new life far away, tough as that would be for me and my kids not seeing them again. I nearly told them last weekend I was thinking separation might be on the cards but didn't.

I don't think I've "fallen" for the girl in this case. But I was definitely looking forward to the potential of fuck buddy and social time with a lovely girl who shares a lot of the same sexual interests as me. I'm really annoyed with myself for having blown it so carelessly as I really think it would have helped me chill about my home life, which in turn would probably have helped that improve over time. I don't even know why I snogged her, I was preparing for the usual peck on the cheek. Fucking stupid.

Well I shall just have to dust myself off. But it has made me realise I can't keep ignoring the shitty marriage. I'm not sure I actually fancy my wife anymore, which means I don't think I'll be able to muster the effort to save it, especially as she has made crystal clear she won't be doing likewise.

You are thinking with your dick dude. Even if it worked out with this hooker and you ran off together then it would only be a temporary relief and not the solution to your problems. It's a bit like how an alcoholic has a drink and finds some relief from the pain and difficulties in life. But in between the drinking, the pain keeps screaming out which he can't avoid.

Your wife sounds like one of those entitled, ungrateful women and if you are willing to talk then perhaps you should make it clear to her that if she doesn't talk with you and try to make this work then you will leave. Sometimes women need a bit of a reality check!

Explain to her that you are only staying with her for the children's sake and that you want to make this work. Now, obviously, if you don't want to and you want to leave then make sure you think about it carefully. There is no peace with hookers and you can never trust them in that, I would never trust a woman that has a huge body count. There is always the risk that she could leave you for another man.

[big-al93]

If parents are that toxic, then they should not be having children. Yes, I agree it can be a temporary relief for the kids but the point is and was that if you have children then you have to try to make the marriage work. That means, not arguing in front of them and bringing them up as healthy as possible. Showing them love and affection and giving them the right education needed.

If 2 people are being toxic as you say, and are arguing and being manipulative then they are not trying to make the marriage work for the children. Do you see my point?

I see what you are saying, I just don't happen to agree with what I consider a very outdated view, even when 2 parents are trying not to argue in front of children and only have the best intentions for them, children do pick up on the tensions and often feel that they have to pick a side.

I agree that if a relationship is toxic, then the idea of kids is stupid, but often relationships change after children come along, financial pressures are greater, one partner may get resentful of having to do the lions share of the parenting or whatever.

IMHO your "point" had very little to do with the OP and his situation.

No matter what, the OP is stuck in an affectionless relationship, and the more he tells us the more toxic I believe it to be. My advice and it is only my view, is that it is better for the children to show them that not all relationships are like that and if they are in one, that they can do something about it rather than feeling trapped for 20 years or so. To me the OP's original problem is not really the problem, neither is the lack of sex in the marriage, as long as they loved and cared about each other a sexless marriage could be made to work. However the relationship being described (and i fully realise that we are only hearing the OP's pov) is almost certainly going to get worse without some sort of professional help and is bound to affect the children as they grow (I'm assuming they are quite young from the mention of 15 years until they leave home, but these days that could mean the eldest is 20+)

[Doc Holliday]

Interesting story and a cut above some of the more usual EAS ones.

OP, it looks to me like you wanted a fairly transactional type relationship without paying for it. I don't mean that unkindly and I'm not suggesting you wanted something for nothing.

It's just that sending an email laying out your ideas on how the relationship should proceed is hardly likely to fill a potential partner with joy and probably isn't what they're looking for. Let's be honest, she would probably get paid for that sort of thing.

I'd agree with the voices of experience on here and suggest that she's 'treated you well' and is avoiding the pitfalls of unwanted advances. People may laugh but WGs are women and have the same boundaries as others. An unexpected snog after a friendly drink is viewed very differently in this age.

This ^

Fuck buddy is exactly one of the ways I put it to her.

Therein lies a problem. You cannot really have it multiple ways.  A FB is where there is just a mutual sexual attraction, but no emotional one and even minimal social interaction as 'friends'. There must be no financial arrangement involved at all and it mostly needs to be driven by her.

Alternatively you could look at becoming friends, getting to know each other better and seeing what develops. Ideally there should be no sex involved at first and indeed and you must not see her for paid bookings. Should a relationship progress then any sex must not involve payment.

It seems your plan/proposals ( which should have been discussed in person not detailed in an email) attempt to cover too many options? You also appear to have been the driving force? It is often preferable with SP's if this is driven by her or at the very least mutual.

Having agreed to go on a date to get to know each other, then instead of giving her a farewell 'peck' you decided to snog her which was not the plan. You accept this was wrong and I agree it may well have tipped the balance.

My main point is that your proposal was flawed, because whatever type of relationship was being explored the SP/punter financial one, MUST be removed from the equation.

EDIT the above advice is based on my personal experience.

[Strawberry]

This jumps out to me;

It's a shame as I started to view her as an opportunity for both physical and a little bit of emotional therapy.

[hullad]

Take the punting out of it and look at as a relationship, this happens every day relationships end and in most cases by one or the other involved. I was in a loveless relationship for over 25 years, I never considered leaving her as she was apart from sex great. She passed away last year and I am not in the market for a long term relationship, I miss her and always will.

. I see a very good escort and have done for around eight years, I know everything about her and vice versa. I like the lass we have been out socially, but I know it's a business relationship and so does she. I have no intentions of altering the way it is. I visit and sometimes it's gone an hour or two over time, she has never asked for payment. I know she likes me as I do her as a person and pushing the boundaries can and would spoil what we have now.

Never regret what you had, celebrate you had it

[jimbobted]

This jumps out to me;

It's a shame as I started to view her as an opportunity for both physical and a little bit of emotional therapy.

Yeah.
Food and drink social time. And bedroom fun paid for or on a fuck buddy basis.
Can't remember the last time I just sat enjoying a drink or a meal and friendly chat with a girl. On the rare occasion my wife and I go out we either sit in silence or she bangs on about what a terrible husband I am.

The SP is a lovely girl, and quite part time with her escorting (low volume, high value bookings) and hence was more than happy to enjoy some social time with me.

I do think there was a genuine connection there but I've blown it by behaving inappropriately for a moment, and either thinks I'm a dick or after more than she can offer. She's totally within her rights to ghost me.

I don't think I'll make the mistake of inviting a girl for social time again, no matter what the temptation (most would say no anyway).

[Doc Holliday]

@OP we’re in danger of analysis paralysis here

Great expression  ... and always apt for these EAS threads. Also you cannot analyse accurately with only one side of the story.

The high level of detail means JBT is identifiable should she be reading it. I assume he has thought of that?

[Doc Holliday]

Food and drink social time. And bedroom fun paid for or on a fuck buddy basis.

That's my point. It is one or the other. If you hope to mix it (paid and unpaid) it simply won't work.

[PilotMan]

Explain to her that you are only staying with her for the children's sake and that you want to make this work

⬆Don't do this, she will forever hold it against you. ⬆

If you're going to stay, you have to commit 100%, no justification, no explanation, you stay, you give 100% - even if she doesn't and even if she continues to give you shit. Be the best version of you, you're doing it for YOU, you're not doing it for her, not for your kids.

You don't need your wife's validation, or anyone else's, you do it, be the best you, and it will have a profound impact on your whole life. You will feel way better about yourself as soon as you do this with total commitment. Your kids will notice it, your wife will notice it, you will feel strong and powerful.

Your wife is hurting, so she's lashing out, it's her lashing about about herself.

Don't punish her, that will come back with her hating you.

She may come around, she may not, but that doesn't mean you should stop being the best version of you, every day.

Flip the situation

If she suddenly became extremely nice to you, continually, without hesitation, and always edified you to everyone, especially your kids ------ how would it make you feel, would it have any effect on you?

[Big_Al]

Some great advice and insight on this thread. Thanks to all for the interesting points. Many ring true at home for me but not all. Am in a sexless marriage but we have intimacy and enjoy each other’s company so there’s something to build on. I feel for the OP as it sounds like things are pretty tough and toxic. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[pythondan]

From what the OP has said his marriage seems to be effectively over and neither party is getting much out of it.

Breaking up can be very difficult particularly if the female is not able to support herself financially as the male can come out with little and may to pay ongoing spousal support indefinitely even when the female shacks up with a new bloke. However painful though in many circumstances it is the right choice. I have seen three male work colleagues go through this over the past few years and it has been tough for them but they all seem to now be happier. I don't think any of them got stiffed with spousal support though.

One of them has met a lovely woman who he in a serious relationship with but they don't have any plans to live together and seem to have a whale of a time on those weekends where both sets of kids are with former partners and they can do what they like. He is as happy as anyone I know but did have two very dark years during the split and subsequent divorce. Not everyone will have such a good outcome but it is certainly possible.

The OPs yearning for contact and affection is understandable but an escort is never going to provide it on the part time basis he was hoping for.

[Brompton]

The OPs yearning for contact and affection is understandable but an escort is never going to provide it on the part time basis he was hoping for.

Your last paragraph above I think sums it up, we all (perhaps I can’t & shouldn’t speak for all) I am sure want the same, I posted earlier in the thread my issues in the past but to this day of course I miss the sex but I also miss the spontaneous bits like the restaurants, cinema, just sitting with a drink talking & laughing about nothing in particular & yes when that drifts away however hard you try to revive it then it’s a huge loss.

Jeez I’m making this a Mills & Boon novel now 

Anyway OP you are not alone as you will see from the thread with a lot of us who have been in or are currently in ‘the same boat’ with marriage or long term relationship issues.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

JBT, ever thought of a trail seperation to see how you may feel after that maybe?..

[tp69]

From her side: You've offered her a relationship in which you're not available. Having thought it through, perhaps she sees how fraught it is and that there's no particularly good outcome for anyone. She's effectively giving herself to a married man and it'll become incredibly complicated. I would imagine she'll respond if you give her time, rather than ghosting you, so give her some time.

From your side: Starting a relationship with an SP while married to another is absolutely bonkers and cannot end well. Either 1) work on your marriage together, 2) agree to live together for the kids while being open to other physical relationships, or 3) separate.

I feel for you, but you can't cover the first problem by making it more complicated and unfair to the incoming participant. You need to resolve the marriage first. Being on your own with less money, but happy, is a better outcome than being miserable, but first figure out whether your marriage is indeed over. Good luck.

[Thephoenix]

JBT, ever thought of a trail seperation to see how you may feel after that maybe?..

I think that's a good option, but only if you both agree, and it's a good way for both participants to take stock and consider their options.
It's also an opportunity to give each other space and time, with an option to consider some counseling away from the fraught home environment.

It's worth a try and can work with some goodwill on both sides.
Even if you don't opt for formal counseling, Relate has lot's of useful guidance online and in print.
In time and with some honest introspection it's possible to rediscover what originally attracted you both, and how you can better meet each other's needs and expectations.

Sometimes an old pair of slippers can be better than a pair of expensive trainers, but as you're still quite young it's a difficult decision for you to make.....Good luck!

[willie loman]

you were really in too much of a hurry, next time, try a slow burn, but to be brutal, when there is a 20 year age gap your really have to bring something to the table, usually money , status etc.

[jimbobted]

From her side: You've offered her a relationship in which you're not available. Having thought it through, perhaps she sees how fraught it is and that there's no particularly good outcome for anyone. She's effectively giving herself to a married man and it'll become incredibly complicated. I would imagine she'll respond if you give her time, rather than ghosting you, so give her some time.

From your side: Starting a relationship with an SP while married to another is absolutely bonkers and cannot end well. Either 1) work on your marriage together, 2) agree to live together for the kids while being open to other physical relationships, or 3) separate.

I feel for you, but you can't cover the first problem by making it more complicated and unfair to the incoming participant. You need to resolve the marriage first. Being on your own with less money, but happy, is a better outcome than being miserable, but first figure out whether your marriage is indeed over. Good luck.

A fair summary, though I never asked for her to give herself to me - quite happy for her to escort and fuck other guys in her private life. Just seemed an opportunity for us to have some fun together when we both happen to be in town and at a loose end.
I think kissing her the way I did probably confused that intent. I don't blame her for running away.

On your second paragraph, I'm veering to option 3. I don't think there's any hope for the marriage, it's been fucked for years so there seems little point in dragging it out further.

[RandomGuy99]

A fair summary, though I never asked for her to give herself to me - quite happy for her to escort and fuck other guys in her private life. Just seemed an opportunity for us to have some fun together when we both happen to be in town and at a loose end.
I think kissing her the way I did probably confused that intent. I don't blame her for running away.

On your second paragraph, I'm veering to option 3. I don't think there's any hope for the marriage, it's been fucked for years so there seems little point in dragging it out further.

Stop thinking about it.

Move on.

Find new SPs.

[Doc Holliday]

you were really in too much of a hurry, next time, try a slow burn, but to be brutal, when there is a 20 year age gap your really have to bring something to the table, usually money , status etc.

I must have missed that bit? JBT said he is mid forties. If she is mid twenties then I would agree it is a potential obstacle, though not insurmountable without money and status.

[Brompton]

I must have missed that bit? JBT said he is mid forties. If she is mid twenties then I would agree it is a potential obstacle, though not insurmountable without money and status.

I missed it too.

If she is half his age I know through my own experience back in the day you do question “What the hell am I doing?” “Why is she interested in me?” etc etc

You know long term there isn’t a future in it but as I was told at the time “live in the moment” but if you’re in deep (pardon the pun) when the wheels come off the heartache that follows you question if it was all worth it, sorry OP as other UKP members have indicated ‘move on’ but equally easier said than done in the short term, good luck 

[willie loman]

I must have missed that bit? JBT said he is mid forties. If she is mid twenties then I would agree it is a potential obstacle, though not insurmountable without money and status.

working girls are often in the job, due to poor partner choice in the past, and many of them are determined not to make that mistake again, ive yet to meet a girl who when playing with her barbie dolls, said when barbie grows up, she will marry a poor guy, and live in a council house without any furniture.

[jimbobted]

I must have missed that bit? JBT said he is mid forties. If she is mid twenties then I would agree it is a potential obstacle, though not insurmountable without money and status.

Yes, nearly 20 year age gap. But she has a thing for older men and again, was after fuck buddy not life's partner. She seemed down for that but clearly snogging her outside of a bedroom sent the wrong message.
A very careless moment from me which has consequences that will take me some time to recover from. She was really great fun in and out of the bedroom, and seemed to genuinely enjoy all we did together. A nice personality to while away some time with. I really do feel I've had a taste of what could have been a very fun casual partner and have fucked it up for myself. She really was a wet dream come true for me and driving her away through a moment's stupidity is a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow it I must.

[Brompton]

Yes, nearly 20 year age gap. But she has a thing for older men and again, was after fuck buddy not life's partner. She seemed down for that but clearly snogging her outside of a bedroom sent the wrong message.
A very careless moment from me which has consequences that will take me some time to recover from. She was really great fun in and out of the bedroom, and seemed to genuinely enjoy all we did together. A nice personality to while away some time with. I really do feel I've had a taste of what could have been a very fun casual partner and have fucked it up for myself. She really was a wet dream come true for me and driving her away through a moment's stupidity is a bitter pill to swallow, but swallow it I must.

Can’t see that kiss/snog made her walk away in light of what you outlined in your original post but then again what do I know about women? From my experience over the years I know very little 

[a1000punts]

Can’t see that kiss/snog made her walk away in light of what you outlined in your original post but then again what do I know about women? From my experience over the years I know very little 

I agree with this. They had kissed and fucked and held hands.

OP, it's best you don't beat yourself up too much about the snog, there's a good chance it wouldn't have made any difference if you hadn't done that.
She probably just had a change of heart and decided it was best for her not to develop feelings for anyone, while doing the job she's doing.

[Doc Holliday]

Yes, nearly 20 year age gap. But she has a thing for older men and again, was after fuck buddy not life's partner.

If you feel she was interested in a FB arrangement, then I repeat what I said earlier .. did she offer to meet you for sex with absolutely no payment involved?

[Doc Holliday]

working girls are often in the job, due to poor partner choice in the past, and many of them are determined not to make that mistake again,

I agree that is often true.

ive yet to meet a girl who when playing with her barbie dolls, said when barbie grows up, she will marry a poor guy, and live in a council house without any furniture.

Aspirations indeed .. only the best for Barbie, yet many do end up in that situation and some of those share the 'council house' with their chosen 'Ken' that they still love very much.

[jimbobted]

If you feel she was interested in a FB arrangement, then I repeat what I said earlier .. did she offer to meet you for sex with absolutely no payment involved?

Yes. She wanted to shoot some content with me, and had a very specific fantasy she wanted fulfilling.
What I'd proposed was if I booked [SP name] that was a normal booking, paid. If [real name] and I had some social time and she decided to offer more great, but no expectation. And if [real name] recruited me for a shoot or her fantasy, no payment. She was down for that.

In fact during one of our meetings she suggested something for next time. I laughingly said "You'll have to pay ME for that!". And she looked me right in the eye and said "Yeah, OK then".

[jimbobted]

Can’t see that kiss/snog made her walk away in light of what you outlined in your original post but then again what do I know about women? From my experience over the years I know very little 

That's what I thought, and part of me still thinks.
But I also know fuck all about women.

The only thing I can think is perhaps she thought the snog outside of the bedroom indicated a romantic hankering rather than casual sex arrangement. She definitely wasn't up for romance, and nor was I but can see how she may have got that impression and run a mile.

[Doc Holliday]

Yes. She wanted to shoot some content with me, and had a very specific fantasy she wanted fulfilling.
What I'd proposed was if I booked [SP name] that was a normal booking, paid. If [real name] and I had some social time and she decided to offer more great, but no expectation. And if [real name] recruited me for a shoot or her fantasy, no payment. She was down for that.

In fact during one of our meetings she suggested something for next time. I laughingly said "You'll have to pay ME for that!". And she looked me right in the eye and said "Yeah, OK then".

Apologies I am perhaps not being clear enough. What you are describing is still a financial arrangement. Some SPs will offer extras (including time) or discounts or even free sessions (such as the photoshoot you mention).

If however you really push all her sexual buttons and she wants to meet you for that reason ie as a fuck buddy, then the only way you can be sure this is genuine is if she refuses all fees all the time.. and that does happen.

[Brompton]

That's what I thought, and part of me still thinks.
But I also know fuck all about women.

The only thing I can think is perhaps she thought the snog outside of the bedroom indicated a romantic hankering rather than casual sex arrangement. She definitely wasn't up for romance, and nor was I but can see how she may have got that impression and run a mile.

You stated about the cocktails, arm in arm, hand in hand when out alongside the laughter etc it does smack of some romance & there is nothing wrong with that. I’m sure many of us need that, for the many years I was married I would have given anything to have got that attention from my wife, the simple things if you will.

I said earlier in the post I see a regular, well as regular as I can afford maybe 4-5 times a year if that’s a regular?  Again as I said I’ve deliberately kept within what I think are the ‘guidelines’ which is difficult at times when after ‘the deed’ I sometimes get the offer to stay & lie & chat with a drink or get asked if I’m not in a hurry she’ll cook & yes I get a hell of a buzz especially as I’ll also get an occasional text in between visits asking how I am etc but for all I know she may well do that with many guys when she needs more business.

Relationships are a minefield at the best of times but when we pay for attention & they deliver that & more it plays tricks with your brain, not so sure as they say that mens brains are always in their trousers.

 

 

[jimbobted]

Apologies I am perhaps not being clear enough. What you are describing is still a financial arrangement. Some SPs will offer extras (including time) or discounts or even free sessions (such as the photoshoot you mention).

If however you really push all her sexual buttons and she wants to meet you for that reason ie as a fuck buddy, then the only way you can be sure this is genuine is if she refuses all fees all the time.. and that does happen.

Well, that is what I was angling for and I think where we were headed had things not come to an abrupt halt for whatever reason.
She told me over WA after a meeting late last year, unprompted, that I'd really turned her on. A few days later she complimented me again in a similar manner.
Whilst planning our latest meet, she again was saying how much she gets turned on by me and loved the build up to our last meeting (I met her at the station and we travelled to the venue together) knowing what we were going to get up to etc. I didn't really believe her as I didn't think she'd even orgasmed during a meet.
During our last meet she came at least 3 times and squirted all over the place. Was definitely genuine as she's never faked an orgasm with me so I don't know why she'd suddenly start doing so, the squirt is hard to fake and I could feel her pussy spasming as well as her face flushing etc. She commented after she is hard to make come and doesn't usually orgasm at all, and was surprised she'd had cum multiple times.

During our social meet she mentioned again how much she enjoyed the sex. That's when she asked if I'd fulfill some fantasies for her, shoot the porn etc.

So yes, I believe I pushed those buttons for her and yes I believe free casual sex in return for a bit of wining and dining was on the cards. She's a low volume very high fee girl with a group of regular clients such that she hasn't made any bookings through AW for months. So giving me some for free because she likes me and likes the way I fuck her works have zero impact upon her earnings.

But I'll never know for sure.

[jimbobted]

You stated about the cocktails, arm in arm, hand in hand when out alongside the laughter etc it does smack of some romance & there is nothing wrong with that. I’m sure many of us need that, for the many years I was married I would have given anything to have got that attention from my wife, the simple things if you will.

I said earlier in the post I see a regular, well as regular as I can afford maybe 4-5 times a year if that’s a regular?  Again as I said I’ve deliberately kept within what I think are the ‘guidelines’ which is difficult at times when after ‘the deed’ I sometimes get the offer to stay & lie & chat with a drink or get asked if I’m not in a hurry she’ll cook & yes I get a hell of a buzz especially as I’ll also get an occasional text in between visits asking how I am etc but for all I know she may well do that with many guys when she needs more business.

Relationships are a minefield at the best of times but when we pay for attention & they deliver that & more it plays tricks with your brain, not so sure as they say that mens brains are always in their trousers.

 

Yeah it's tricky. Especially when the girl (as this one does) delivers a perfect GFE anyway. It's easy to not really know what's real and what's make-believe anymore when you start seeing each other socially.
I mean at the time the snog didn't feel inappropriate due to all the hand holding etc which was all instigated by her. She said "I wasn't expecting that", I replied "Neither was I", we locked lips again for a couple of seconds and then said goodbye.
I can't imagine she'd have kissed me again if she'd been horrified, but who knows.
Maybe she just thought better of it later. Which is absolutely fine but if she'd just said "You know what, I can't do this after all" would at least have let me know where I stand, but I know things aren't always as neat and easy at that.

She's a nice girl and I wish her well. It's time for me to move on so I'm going to try not to wonder about it any further, or think about the great sex I could have enjoyed.

The only other thing is we videod our last meeting on her gopros, I was promised the footage but haven't seen it. Obviously I'd like a copy of it or for it to be destroyed but that ain't gonna happe now. More fool me, should have copied the SD card there and then. I have some clips I took on my phone but may delete them so I can't torture myself 

[tp69]

I highly doubt the kiss made any difference, other than making her realise she's likely to develop feelings for someone who is married with kids and who sees WG's. I'm sure that combination would scare many women away.

You could always message her and tell her you realise you were expecting too much and that if she wants to keep it purely transactional you're happy to do so.

Then, perhaps once you resolve your personal situation things could develop beyond that if you both are interested.

[jimbobted]

You could always message her and tell her you realise you were expecting too much and that if she wants to keep it purely transactional you're happy to do so.

Well I could, but she isn't reading messages from me so I'd be talking to a void  . For all I know she has our WhatsApp conversation archived and muted so won't even see that I've sent her anything.

[tp69]

Well I could, but she isn't reading messages from me so I'd be talking to a void  . For all I know she has our WhatsApp conversation archived and muted so won't even see that I've sent her anything.

You can text too. If she's archived you then it's over. Strange reaction versus just telling you straight how she feels.

[jimbobted]

You can text too. If she's archived you then it's over. Strange reaction versus just telling you straight how she feels.

Yep, but that's women for you 
Unless it's some comedy of errors where she's accidentally archived me and is sat wondering why the hell I haven't been in touch 
I could text her. But meh, life's too short. I'll take the hint and fuck off.

[alabama1]

Yep, but that's women for you 
Unless it's some comedy of errors where she's accidentally archived me and is sat wondering why the hell I haven't been in touch 
I could text her. But meh, life's too short. I'll take the hint and fuck off.

Reading through your posts, i am very surprised that you haven't, or have you ?

[tp69]

Yep, but that's women for you 
Unless it's some comedy of errors where she's accidentally archived me and is sat wondering why the hell I haven't been in touch 
I could text her. But meh, life's too short. I'll take the hint and fuck off.

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

'Hi X. You haven't replied to my Whatsapp. I understand if you're unsure and don't want the complication. We can keep it business if you prefer as I need to sort my own situation out before taking on something else. If you'd rather not see me at all then I understand that too. YourName'

That gives her the opportunity to respond and you get the closure you need and can stop wondering.

[magnetico]

She wanted to shoot some content with me,

You don't get it, shooting content isn't free sex

[RandomGuy99]

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

'Hi X. You haven't replied to my Whatsapp. I understand if you're unsure and don't want the complication. We can keep it business if you prefer as I need to sort my own situation out before taking on something else. If you'd rather not see me at all then I understand that too. YourName'

That gives her the opportunity to respond and you get the closure you need and can stop wondering.

Once you blur the lines you can't unblur them. Move on.