Human Trafficking

[scutty brown]

My advice is report to Crimestoppers and/or the police anonymously, giving your real name COULD drag you into a heap of shit dependent on the police involved.

The risk of giving my real name is far too high for my liking. They are used to anonymous tip-offs so its hardly unusual.

My experience is that it didn't, but others experience may vary

[smiths]

My experience is that it didn't, but others experience may vary

Which is why I said dependent on the police involved, as I wouldn't know in advance what they will be like I wouldn't take the risk.

[niftyfiftydave]

Where did you get that rubbish from? The police aren't a bunch of mind readers.
As for reporting anonymously, if you report in good faith and can demonstrate that you got out as soon as you realised something was wrong then I believe you have little to worry about. The police desperately need help over trafficking and modern slavery issues and they're unlikely to punish those that give information - as long as you do it honestly and in good faith

I went direct because i don,t trust plod to act unless pushed, and it took some pushing before i got to meet them, understaffed, under paid and low morale for most of them.
Once i got that bit sorted i told them the full story, never was i made to feel wrong or under threat of arrest for the reasons mentioned. They took the time, well over 2 hours, to get the details correct. Listened when i told them they need to get this right first time or things could be bad for her.
I was called a while later from a local to her officer who was a complete prick, had no idea at all, i called those i spoke to and told them about the prick who could fuck things up, a senior officer then called and told me he had been taken off and reprimanded.

Despite my own mistrust of plod all i can say is in this case they were excellent, and i believe hate pimps as much as we do.

It all depends on you as a person how you deal with it, my mistrust and firm evidence from her made me want to get it right, get it done quickly and i ain,t afraid of dealing with plod, but do know to get anything done they need pushing. If crimestoppers is your way and you can live with that being enough for you it is better than nothing at all.

[snaitram99]

OK I'll try to put some flesh on the bones

Travel...

Sleeping...


Limited clothing...

Sometimes clothes are removed from a girls reach to prevent her escaping.......I've seen this with chinese girls where the only clothes in the flat were lace bodysuits

Money collection...

But remember - if you have the slightest suspicion, make the call

So did you when you saw this? What was the outcome?

[Doc Holliday]

My advice is report to Crimestoppers and/or the police anonymously, giving your real name COULD drag you into a heap of shit dependent on the police involved.

Yes I agree use Crimestoppers which is a system built around anonymity and it will definitely be 'in the system', but do not attempt to contact the police directly on an anonymous basis as not only could this jeopardise your anonymity but there is no guarantee it will be followed up passed on.

[smiths]

Yes I agree use Crimestoppers which is a system built around anonymity and it will definitely be 'in the system', but do not attempt to contact the police directly on an anonymous basis as not only could this jeopardise your anonymity but there is no guarantee it will be followed up passed on.

I imagine I would ring both Crimestoppers and the police anonymously from a phone box, what others do is up to them of course. However imagining what I would do and what I would actually do could be two different things, hopefully it will never be put to the test.

[Doc Holliday]

I imagine I would ring both Crimestoppers and the police anonymously from a phone box, what others do is up to them of course. However imagining what I would do and what I would actually do could be two different things, hopefully it will never be put to the test.

Sorry my post was badly worded. The main reason for using Crimestoppers is that it is guaranteed anonymous and works reasonably well. Your call content will be passed on to the relevant department and logged/collated with other similar information. If you phone 101 (anonymously or otherwise) it's a lottery what happens next?

[tesla]

I imagine I would ring ... from a phone box,

good luck finding one of them...

[smiths]

Sorry my post was badly worded. The main reason for using Crimestoppers is that it is guaranteed anonymous and works reasonably well. Your call content will be passed on to the relevant department and logged/collated with other similar information. If you phone 101 (anonymously or otherwise) it's a lottery what happens next?

You make an interesting point, I would view a trafficked/coerced/forced woman as being an emergency where speed of response could make a difference so I would call 999 which is free of course, 101 wasn't free when I used it once a couple of years ago. But I did read it is to be make free if it hasn't been already. I couldn't guarantee to have change on me and obviously wouldn't pay by card. So 999 would hopefully ensure the police take it seriously and get straight right round their.

[Doc Holliday]

You make an interesting point, I would view a trafficked/coerced/forced woman as being an emergency where speed of response could make a difference so I would call 999 which is free of course, 101 wasn't free when I used it once a couple of years ago. But I did read it is to be make free if it hasn't been already. I couldn't guarantee to have change on me and obviously wouldn't pay by card. So 999 would hopefully ensure the police take it seriously and get straight right round their.

Re calls to 101 External Link/Members Only

999 to the Police is an even bigger lottery  The key criteria is 'immediate', so yes if you can persuade them there is an immediate and present danger to someone then they may respond but that would then depend on what else is occurring. Don't phone on a Saturday night   

[niftyfiftydave]

Re calls to 101 External Link/Members Only

999 to the Police is an even bigger lottery  The key criteria is 'immediate', so yes if you can persuade them there is an immediate and present danger to someone then they may respond but that would then depend on what else is occurring. Don't phone on a Saturday night 

The Police in general are a fucking lottery, More interested in reactive policing, responding to emergency calls sometimes if the clown on the phone gives it priority.

Funding kept up by easy target motorists by camera and as i said Morale is very low for many reasons.

I was not prepared to play the lottery, insisted on giving info to an officer in person, make sure the info given was noted and kept them informed when i got some strange contact.

There are lots of reasons most can not do that, OH probably the big one, caused me some explaining with the estranged OH when a nosy git called her and told her plod had been in the house a long time. so she came round. Most are not as used to dealing with plod as i am, in lots of different ways lol, got a few high rankers in the family now retired.

[Thecunninglinguist]

Don't let me put anyone off reporting someone that they suspect to be victims of slavery but before giving your name, people should be aware that even if you are not required to make a statement, your name will be linked to the case and may become available to the court and potentially defence lawyers.
The law requires that all informants, no matter how insignificant, are centrally recorded on intelligence systems, along with their information. Courts can demand the information/informant details but in any case you are "in the system" and available to anyone with the correct authorisation forever.

[smiths]

Don't let me put anyone off reporting someone that they suspect to be victims of slavery but before giving your name, people should be aware that even if you are not required to make a statement, your name will be linked to the case and may become available to the court and potentially defence lawyers.
The law requires that all informants, no matter how insignificant, are centrally recorded on intelligence systems, along with their information. Courts can demand the information/informant details but in any case you are "in the system" and available to anyone with the correct authorisation forever.

That could happen which is a reason my advice is to make the call/s anonymously.

[smiths]

Re calls to 101 External Link/Members Only

999 to the Police is an even bigger lottery  The key criteria is 'immediate', so yes if you can persuade them there is an immediate and present danger to someone then they may respond but that would then depend on what else is occurring. Don't phone on a Saturday night 

As I said I would probably ring Crimestoppers and 999, its then in their hands.

[scutty brown]

So did you when you saw this? What was the outcome?

Yes, and the outcomes I understand were favourable.
I won't say more than that

[cotton]

Sadly thats not true
A high proportion of the foreign girls on both have been trafficked / forced / exploited in some way. VS now seems to be worse than AW since the verification changes a year or so ago, but both still are a problem.
To put it in context, this morning VS listed 208 escort profiles for Lancashire. If the pattern follows past checks, that will equate to around 50-60 trafficked or otherwise controlled women. It doesn't include the girls listed under "massage" or "adult contacts" which could easily add another 20. You could probably add another 20 from AW as well...........so you have 90-100 before you start listing the hidden girls you describe

Were these checks done by a credible authority , do you have a link to the report.
On the basis that "Human trafficking is modern-day slavery and involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act" it would be interesting to see what checks they made and just how they actually established that 50-60 out of 208 escort profiles were human trafficking victims in the sense given above , or 90-100 according to your higher estimate.

[scutty brown]

Were these checks done by a credible authority , do you have a link to the report.
On the basis that "Human trafficking is modern-day slavery and involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act" it would be interesting to see what checks they made and just how they actually established that 50-60 out of 208 escort profiles were human trafficking victims in the sense given above , or 90-100 according to your higher estimate.

It's simply not safe to say where that estimate came from

[smiths]

No one knows how many trafficked people there are into and around this country, and no one knows how many are trafficked for sex purposes to be forced to be WGs, and how many agree to being trafficked for example in the hope of a better life.

 Anyone or any body that says they do know is actually giving THEIR opinion based on whatever evidence they are going on, which may be convincing to some but not to others. The facts are convictions that occur of course and this is where this soft criminal justice system has it badly wrong in my book. In my opinion ALL convicted traffickers should be given mandatory life sentences.

[one eyed panda]

On a related subject, there has been some press recently about the Holbeck tolerance zone in Leeds.

Some of the proponents are having second thoughts after the law of unintended consequences came into operation with the area being flooded with Romanian girls being shipped in,  which in my book is strongly suggestive of trafficking. Police not wshing to get involved.

I cant find the article to link to but it was in the Guardian. And it was a good piece, not pinky drivel

[winkywanky]

On a related subject, there has been some press recently about the Holbeck tolerance zone in Leeds.

Some of the proponents are having second thoughts after the law of unintended consequences came into operation with the area being flooded with Romanian girls being shipped in,  which in my book is strongly suggestive of trafficking. Police not wshing to get involved.

I cant find the article to link to but it was in the Guardian. And it was a good piece, not pinky drivel

If there's that many then I should imagine a few are trafficked. But I wouldn't mind betting the vast majority are here of their own free will, with the knowledge of what will be expected of them. There are vast numbers of Romanian WGs in our country now, it's pretty well inconceivable that people at home don't know what's going on with girls that go to the UK. You don't get cherry-picked in a Romanian strip joint or brothel to come and pick fruit in Blighty.

It's quite possibly got to the stage now where Romanian schoolgirls discuss coming to the UK to be a WG, with their Careers Advisers.

[JRWK]

The Thai massage parlours in Southport I've visited in the past ( Post Office Ave and Ban Chiang) have all had the same girls working there month after month (one even had a UK passport), so have always assumed they were legal and doing this voluntarily.

Since moving to Liverpool Chinese parlours, tho the girl who appears to manage the place (Kelly at Sakura and Coco at Pink Peony) the other girls seem to be there a week or so. 

How can you tell they aren't being trafficked?

[houseboot]

The Thai massage parlours in Southport I've visited in the past ( Post Office Ave and Ban Chiang) have all had the same girls working there month after month (one even had a UK passport), so have always assumed they were legal and doing this voluntarily.

Since moving to Liverpool Chinese parlours, tho the girl who appears to manage the place (Kelly at Sakura and Coco at Pink Peony) the other girls seem to be there a week or so. 

How can you tell they aren't being trafficked?

See Scutty's post here:-

www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=254245.msg2595785#msg2595785

[scutty brown]

The Thai massage parlours in Southport I've visited in the past ( Post Office Ave and Ban Chiang) have all had the same girls working there month after month (one even had a UK passport), so have always assumed they were legal and doing this voluntarily.

Since moving to Liverpool Chinese parlours, tho the girl who appears to manage the place (Kelly at Sakura and Coco at Pink Peony) the other girls seem to be there a week or so. 

How can you tell they aren't being trafficked?

Its very hard.
The problem is that Chinese women are often complicit in their own exploitation - take the Morecambe cockle pickers, they paid a fortune to be smuggled into the country in containers only to end up as debt-bonded slaves. Language problems, the need to service the debt, and fear of the smugglers stopped them complaining
Chinese women tend to come in via various routes:
smuggled in via container
on tourist / student visas (on which its illegal for them to work)
illegal via Ireland (Irish visas are easier to get than UK ones)
Many of them, especially the older ones seem to be here willingly, but the reality is that often they're paying off a debt-bond - and know that complaining isn't safe. What you've got to ask yourself when you meet a Chinese girl is "how the fuck did she get here"?
Its unrealistic to expect an uneducated girl with no English language from Zhejiang, or Guangong, or Sichuan to have raised the cash to have flown into the UK, and then organised herself to get to a serviced flat in Blackpool, Preston, Leeds or wherever............The truth is someone is organising and financing them and inevitably that organisation and finance comes from chinese organised crime.
By definition the girls are working illegally (unless they have UK residence status through marriage or parents) and are scared of telling anyone the truth. They're between a rock and a hard place: getting caught, chucked out and still having to service the debt -or carry on working, suffer the abuse and brutality of the minders and hope it comes to an end.
Often though the girls are tricked into sex work..........they get a paid flight to the UK on the belief they'll be working in a restaurant, only to find that "noodle bar girl" has a hidden meaning. They arrive, in debt, and have to fuck to survive.
Or you'll get cases like the one I've reported before: a girl flies legitimately into Heathrow on what she thinks is a holiday but the girl she's supposed to meet isn't there. Instead she gets befriended by a pimps agent who offers her a bed and a tour of London. Next day she ends up at an illegal gambling den, doesn't understand the exchange rate, is helped rack up a debt of thousands..........day after she forced to start repaying her debt by working in brothels around the country.
In short its damned hard to tell at times............all you can say for sure is that the older the girl is, then the less likely she is to be forced. Also in Liverpool (which is what you asked about) at least some of the girls are actually British - remember there has been a Chinese population there since the 1700's. However even then there's a good chance the finance comes from Triad-type gangs.

[cotton]

In india , the hookers they export to the middle east are generally all established hookers , this dosnt necessarily mean they are old as they start young. Stories of girls being lured to travel huge distances on the promise of working in noodle bars is likely largely urban myth , in the huge majority of cases, girls , wherever they come from , are already habituated into a life of servile prostitution and the organisations that organise it and travelling abroad is just another employment opportunity. the reason why workers take on debts to travel and work abroad is because of the opportunity to earn more money abroad, obviously they are required to pay off their debts.
Obviously where a girl is genuinely kept as a slave and forced to work under duress then that is wrong and should be prevented.

[scutty brown]

In india , the hookers they export to the middle east are generally all established hookers , this dosnt necessarily mean they are old as they start young. Stories of girls being lured to travel huge distances on the promise of working in noodle bars is likely largely urban myth , in the huge majority of cases, girls , wherever they come from , are already habituated into a life of servile prostitution and the organisations that organise it and travelling abroad is just another employment opportunity. the reason why workers take on debts to travel and work abroad is because of the opportunity to earn more money abroad, obviously they are required to pay off their debts.
Obviously where a girl is genuinely kept as a slave and forced to work under duress then that is wrong and should be prevented.

In my experience its not urban myth.......I'm aware of cases reported which have been proven. Sorry, can't post the details

[jesse4585]

We used to talk about this in the Labour Party. When it was just smart people present, the view was that sex trafficking had been massively exaggerated by extreme feminists.
External Link/Members Only

Sadly things seems to have changed this last 10 years,  I'd now mostly agree with Scutty's take.  I hope punters who support the right wing parties tell their MPs even they want tax & spend, at least for the police.   As to get trafficking under control, police need more money,  not just more public spirited punters giving them intel.

[scutty brown]

We used to talk about this in the Labour Party. When it was just smart people present, the view was that sex trafficking had been massively exaggerated by extreme feminists.
External Link/Members Only

Sadly things seems to have changed this last 10 years,  I'd now mostly agree with Scutty's take.  I hope punters who support the right wing parties tell their MPs even they want tax & spend, at least for the police.   As to get trafficking under control, police need more money,  not just more public spirited punters giving them intel.

Thats a valid point........in parts of the country the police are forced to make choices over what to prioritise, for instance modern slavery / trafficking? or county lines-type drug networks? Its a real dilemma

[niftyfiftydave]

In india , the hookers they export to the middle east are generally all established hookers , this dosnt necessarily mean they are old as they start young. Stories of girls being lured to travel huge distances on the promise of working in noodle bars is likely largely urban myth , in the huge majority of cases, girls , wherever they come from , are already habituated into a life of servile prostitution and the organisations that organise it and travelling abroad is just another employment opportunity. the reason why workers take on debts to travel and work abroad is because of the opportunity to earn more money abroad, obviously they are required to pay off their debts.
Obviously where a girl is genuinely kept as a slave and forced to work under duress then that is wrong and should be prevented.

Not urban myth at all and not always large distance involved. The Lure of London can be enough to trap someone from another part of the country as i can testify.

These people use and abuse others from their own country in our country for financial gain in any way they can. Until someone in power admits we have a country full of people from places where life is cheap and Corruption, fraud, murder and greed is a way of life and finds a way to start dealing with it the stabbings and shootings will continue and the problem we are discussing will get worse.

[tynetunnel]

Personally for the reasons given here, especially by our knowledgeable friend Scutty Brown, i always avoid Chinese girls. It’s almost a certainty that they are controlled or trafficked in some way, hence the rotations that seem to occur with them being moved every week.

It surely follows then that any punter who frequents these Chinese massage parlours/prossies is likely to be partly to responsible for the continuing plight of these unfortunate women, and enriching Chinese gangs in the process.... 

[snaitram99]

Personally for the reasons given here, especially by our knowledgeable friend Scutty Brown, i always avoid Chinese girls. It’s almost a certainty that they are controlled or trafficked in some way, hence the rotations that seem to occur with them being moved every week.

It surely follows then that any punter who frequents these Chinese massage parlours/Sex Workers is likely to be partly to responsible for the continuing plight of these unfortunate women, and enriching Chinese gangs in the process.... 

I'm finding it hard to understand, given Scutty's posts on trafficking, especially of Chinese girls, how he himself has numerous reviews of Chinese girls he has seen, many of them Positive. 

[scutty brown]

Personally for the reasons given here, especially by our knowledgeable friend Scutty Brown, i always avoid Chinese girls. It’s almost a certainty that they are controlled or trafficked in some way, hence the rotations that seem to occur with them being moved every week.

It surely follows then that any punter who frequents these Chinese massage parlours/Sex Workers is likely to be partly to responsible for the continuing plight of these unfortunate women, and enriching Chinese gangs in the process.... 

The same considerations apply to most foreign sex worker groups in the UK.
The current Brazilian influx is the result of existing organised crime groups realising that Romanian girls are increasingly being stopped at immigration -and Brexit is likely to block them completely. The Albanian gangs are highly adaptable at changing their supply lines for drugs, they're just doing the same with girls.
Romanian (many/most Romanians aren't really Romanian), Hungarian, Bulgarian, Russian..................all are easy targets for trafficking groups. In the northwest we have regional variations: Romanians in Blackburn, Russians in Liverpool (usually hidden and only offered in private clubs), Poles in Preston (nearly all beholden to one female pimp), a few Hungarians in Burnley who are linked to Warrington and the East Midlands.......I could go on for ages plotting the links. The simple fact is you have to be wary of all foreign sex workers.
Maybe the only exceptions are Thais - most of them who I know here in the northwest are in the UK as the result of failed catalogue bride marriages

[scutty brown]

I'm finding it hard to understand, given Scutty's posts on trafficking, especially of Chinese girls, how he himself has numerous reviews of Chinese girls he has seen, many of them Positive. 

Interesting question which I'm not going to answer for personal safety reasons

[niftyfiftydave]

Personally for the reasons given here, especially by our knowledgeable friend Scutty Brown, i always avoid Chinese girls. It’s almost a certainty that they are controlled or trafficked in some way, hence the rotations that seem to occur with them being moved every week.

It surely follows then that any punter who frequents these Chinese massage parlours/Sex Workers is likely to be partly to responsible for the continuing plight of these unfortunate women, and enriching Chinese gangs in the process.... 

+1, most sensible post i have seen for some time. Never have been near the Chinese places, not into massage at all,  and joining here it was easy to work out what goes on, like you say keeping them moving should ring alarm bells.

Very happy to help someone selling their arse to better their lives, build a house back home, help elderly parents or kids, even a student but not my thing, filling the boots of anyone else while fucking that arse is not something any of us should entertain though to many on here and loads who are not that is considered an occupational hazard.

[maxxblue]

I'm finding it hard to understand, given Scutty's posts on trafficking, especially of Chinese girls, how he himself has numerous reviews of Chinese girls he has seen, many of them Positive. 

 

[TheOracle]

So bit of a dark subject and I appreciate if it's not something anyone wants to discuss/it's not appropriate for the site. But one thing that worries me and makes me second guess doing any punting is the thought that these girls have been trafficked here. A lot of the Romanian/Polish girls that get reviewed as being "not interested"/"didn't make any effort" here, it really sounds like they don't want to escort. Which begs the question, why are they doing it? And is this 100% their choice?

Aside from going to well reviewed British women, are there any other ways to make sure you're not helping out the seedy underworld of the escorting industry?

I ask because a lot of the EE girls really fit into my interests, but I don't want to fund the slave trade.

There's a big difference between a bad performer and someone who's trafficked, but the best thing is to just walk away if you get bad feelings at the beginning of the punt. I don't think it's that easy to land on someone trafficked if you go through AW or agencies, whereas it's very easy to just find someone who just doesn't like the job or are bad at it anyway, and you'll save yourself.

The one case in the past 10 years where I got concerned trafficking might be involved was with a girl who ended up being seen by multiple people afterwards so I was probably wrong.

[Krambo99]

Very interesting (and disturbing) thread.

I've only been visiting escorts for a couple of months now, so I'm hardly an expert, but HT is something I've wondered about. I've seen maybe a dozen girls (in Dundee). Only two of them I'm pretty sure are fully independent - one a Romanian student, the other a Brazilian who went on the game after losing her legit job. The other have mainly been East European (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.). I also saw a couple of East Asian girls.

The thought of any of these girls have been coerced into sex work makes me sick. I have no problem calling Crimestoppers (though I'm not sure what you do exactly). BUT how can I - an average Joe - know if these girls have been trafficked or not? It's not like they show obvious signs. At least not what I would call obvious. I do keep an eye out for things like physical abuse (bruising, etc), drug use (although that seems more prominent among UK nationals), men being present or answering phone calls, girls who appear scared. Beyond that? What can one do, really?

If I ask it's not like they're going to just tell me. I'm not trying to shift responsibility, well maybe a smidgen, because the very thought upsets me. I just worry about false accusations that would embarrass these working girls and ruin their business. A lot of the girls talk about moving around, but independent girls tour all the time and leave their suitcases out in the open, use cheap rented accommodation. Also being disinterested or quiet proves nothing. It could be a sign of something sinister or it could be a girl who's simply not in the mood.

Not every WG has to be good at her job. Some are friendly and chatty, some not. Some speak good English, some not. Some offer you a drink, some don't. Some shower after a meeting, some wipe. Some check their phones during a visit, some don't. What does it all mean? The checklist approach doesn't work because everyone is different. But these well-meaning websites make it sound like it's all too obvious and you're either an idiot or a callous bastard for not doing your duty.

Has anyone here encountered a non-UK girl who was quiet and spoke little English and then called Crimestoppers because of it? If so, what happened in the end? Has anyone here had success (for want of a better term) in reporting trafficking? I could give Crimestoppers addresses, sure, but without clear evidence don't know if I should? The fallout could be painful for the innocent (including any unfortunate customers present at the time). Obviously I won't be the only customer to these places, so does that mean every other customer is ignoring the obvious or doesn't care? Or maybe they're overly cautious like me and sit doing nothing until someone else does?

All of the girls I've visited have been from either Adult Work or Viva Street - very popular and visible websites which I assumed would be safe to use. How naive am I? Which begs the question if trafficked girls are being sold on these websites out in the open (our local rag even did a piece on the availability of escorts on VS last month!) how on earth can the authorities NOT know what's going on? A couple of texts gets me a location. Can't the police do this if they suspect trafficking? Should we be in a situation where they have to rely on punters to do their jobs for them? Building a case against traffickers may be tricky - and I don't know all that entails - but finding and rescuing the girls would be incredibly easy. So why doesn't it happen? And that's partly what makes me think I'm over-reacting or over-thinking things. Could the police possibly let these girls suffer if all they had to do to save them was click on a website?

If the situation is as bad as suggested, one of these days someone will slip up, and I'll see the evidence of criminality and have to make the call. I sincerely hope that day never comes. I plan to quit escorting when I hit 40 later in the year - it was only ever supposed to be a phase, a fun lifetime experience sort of thing - but I don't want to be left with bad memories of sex with young women who had no other choice. I always treat these escorts with due respect, but I don't suppose that's enough, is it?

My idea to improve the escort world would be to legalise brothels. Properly managed (yet discreet) buildings where girls and their clients can do business safely. The girls would pay taxes (which benefits society as a whole) and have to be registered as UK residents (which filters out trafficking victims). Health checks would be frequent and mandatory. Security would be available 24/7 on the front desk. Now this wouldn't STOP illegal prostitution but it would be BIG difference. It amuses me that - at least where I'm from - there's a big push to open shooting galleries so junkies can access free heroin, yet the same liberals baulk at the idea of two consenting adults engaging in a natural act for money. Drugs good. Sex bad. Got it!

[winkywanky]

Very interesting (and disturbing) thread.

I've only been visiting escorts for a couple of months now, so I'm hardly an expert, but HT is something I've wondered about. I've seen maybe a dozen girls (in Dundee). Only two of them I'm pretty sure are fully independent - one a Romanian student, the other a Brazilian who went on the game after losing her legit job. The other have mainly been East European (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, etc.). I also saw a couple of East Asian girls.

The thought of any of these girls have been coerced into sex work makes me sick. I have no problem calling Crimestoppers (though I'm not sure what you do exactly). BUT how can I - an average Joe - know if these girls have been trafficked or not? It's not like they show obvious signs. At least not what I would call obvious. I do keep an eye out for things like physical abuse (bruising, etc), drug use (although that seems more prominent among UK nationals), men being present or answering phone calls, girls who appear scared. Beyond that? What can one do, really?

If I ask it's not like they're going to just tell me. I'm not trying to shift responsibility, well maybe a smidgen, because the very thought upsets me. I just worry about false accusations that would embarrass these working girls and ruin their business. A lot of the girls talk about moving around, but independent girls tour all the time and leave their suitcases out in the open, use cheap rented accommodation. Also being disinterested or quiet proves nothing. It could be a sign of something sinister or it could be a girl who's simply not in the mood.

Not every WG has to be good at her job. Some are friendly and chatty, some not. Some speak good English, some not. Some offer you a drink, some don't. Some shower after a meeting, some wipe. Some check their phones during a visit, some don't. What does it all mean? The checklist approach doesn't work because everyone is different. But these well-meaning websites make it sound like it's all too obvious and you're either an idiot or a callous bastard for not doing your duty.

Has anyone here encountered a non-UK girl who was quiet and spoke little English and then called Crimestoppers because of it? If so, what happened in the end? Has anyone here had success (for want of a better term) in reporting trafficking? I could give Crimestoppers addresses, sure, but without clear evidence don't know if I should? The fallout could be painful for the innocent (including any unfortunate customers present at the time). Obviously I won't be the only customer to these places, so does that mean every other customer is ignoring the obvious or doesn't care? Or maybe they're overly cautious like me and sit doing nothing until someone else does?

All of the girls I've visited have been from either Adult Work or Viva Street - very popular and visible websites which I assumed would be safe to use. How naive am I? Which begs the question if trafficked girls are being sold on these websites out in the open (our local rag even did a piece on the availability of escorts on VS last month!) how on earth can the authorities NOT know what's going on? A couple of texts gets me a location. Can't the police do this if they suspect trafficking? Should we be in a situation where they have to rely on punters to do their jobs for them? Building a case against traffickers may be tricky - and I don't know all that entails - but finding and rescuing the girls would be incredibly easy. So why doesn't it happen? And that's partly what makes me think I'm over-reacting or over-thinking things. Could the police possibly let these girls suffer if all they had to do to save them was click on a website?

If the situation is as bad as suggested, one of these days someone will slip up, and I'll see the evidence of criminality and have to make the call. I sincerely hope that day never comes. I plan to quit escorting when I hit 40 later in the year - it was only ever supposed to be a phase, a fun lifetime experience sort of thing - but I don't want to be left with bad memories of sex with young women who had no other choice. I always treat these escorts with due respect, but I don't suppose that's enough, is it?

My idea to improve the escort world would be to legalise brothels. Properly managed (yet discreet) buildings where girls and their clients can do business safely. The girls would pay taxes (which benefits society as a whole) and have to be registered as UK residents (which filters out trafficking victims). Health checks would be frequent and mandatory. Security would be available 24/7 on the front desk. Now this wouldn't STOP illegal prostitution but it would be BIG difference. It amuses me that - at least where I'm from - there's a big push to open shooting galleries so junkies can access free heroin, yet the same liberals baulk at the idea of two consenting adults engaging in a natural act for money. Drugs good. Sex bad. Got it!

Good analogy about the legal free heroin and legal brothels.

The reason for the difference is that with one, society sees the addict as a victim to be helped (and to undermine the illegal supply), with the other the girl is seen as a victim (and allowing them to sell sex perpetuates the 'abuse') and more importantly, the punter is seen as an abuser. It's still socially unacceptable to pay for sex. But if only the pragmatism which is being shown towards heroin abuse were to be extended to prostitution, it would undoubtedly reduced trafficking.

As for Crimestoppers, number is easily obtainable and storable in your phone and can be used for this, or anything else for that matter. I see trafficking as a slightly grey area: organised gangs bring girls across to the UK and can make a obscene amounts of dosh doing it. Some of those girls are tricked into it, have their passports taken away and are forced to work for peanuts before that've 'paid for their passage' (£1000s). Others are here willingly to make money by selling their bodies, and have chosen this organised 'pathway' to facilitate it. I see the first as 'wrong', the second as a personal choice. The distinction bewteen the two is probably very hard to prove.

Either way, it would be great to be able to prosecute the scumbag pimps who bring them here and manage them, and actually have a proper immigration system which sets off alarm bells when they try to get back in the UK on future occasions.

[Krambo99]

I'm sure drug addiction sucks. But I don't see addicts as victims. Victims don't choose their fate. Addicts do. Unless they've been forced for whatever reason to take drugs. But that's another matter. Conversely not all escorts are victims. Many choose what they do and these are the ones we should legitimise. The actual victims should be filtered out and given the help they need. But the status quo makes that impossible. So the two are lumped in together: no one gets what they want or need and the punter is always the bad guy. It amazes me how far we've come as a society (same sex marriage, etc) but still haven't gotten our heads around accepting prostitution as a natural way of life. We've only been doing it for thousands of years! It's the one holdover from a puritanical age that just won't go away.

[jesse4585]

...
I just worry about false accusations that would embarrass these working girls and ruin their business. A lot of the girls talk about moving around, but independent girls tour all the time and leave their suitcases out in the open, use cheap rented accommodation. Also being disinterested or quiet proves nothing. It could be a sign of something sinister or it could be a girl who's simply not in the mood.
...
The fallout could be painful for the innocent (including any unfortunate customers present at the time). Obviously I won't be the only customer to these places, so does that mean every other customer is ignoring the obvious or doesn't care? Or maybe they're overly cautious like me and sit doing nothing until someone else does? ...

I think you're right to be cautious, a lot of the time calling the cops on little evidence is likely to do more harm than good.  The exception would be if there was some reason to think the lass is being held in captivity. If ever I encountered someone like that, I'd maybe try to clarify with the girl, and if there was any doubt call the cops straight away, or maybe even take her out myself if I was in an especially reckless mood.

As far as I know though, it's extremely rare  for any of the places that advertise on AW or Viva to have girls who are held captive.  They may be victims of coercion, & only keeping a small share of what they make, but in a sense they are there willingly.

I don't mean this in a nasty way - everyones going to make some wrong assumptions when they first start paying attention to this sort of topic. It's great you obviously care so much,and your post was very articulate.  But just about every other point you make shows you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this topic. For example...

...
Which begs the question if trafficked girls are being sold on these websites out in the open (our local rag even did a piece on the availability of escorts on VS last month!) how on earth can the authorities NOT know what's going on? A couple of texts gets me a location. Can't the police do this if they suspect trafficking? Should we be in a situation where they have to rely on punters to do their jobs for them? Building a case against traffickers may be tricky - and I don't know all that entails - but finding and rescuing the girls would be incredibly easy. So why doesn't it happen? And that's partly what makes me think I'm over-reacting or over-thinking things. Could the police possibly let these girls suffer if all they had to do to save them was click on a website? ...

This is wrong on a number of levels.  While the police would likely get  good results in some cases, they'd also find it challenging to identify victims.  As a randomn example, even when Romanian women are being forced to work in (arguably ) even more unpleasant conditions & often being outright raped, they'll still reluctant report it to the authorities, as enduring it is better than being sent home:
External Link/Members Only

2ndly, the authorities just don't care  about these things as much as they used to. Some individuals in authority do, but even they have financial pressure that constrains what they can do to help.  This last ten years all sorts of suffering is tolerated in UK alone that wouldn't have been before  - increases in people suffering long term hunger,  thousands of suicides due to the harshness of the benefit system, and all sorts  of worker exploitation.

3rdly, even if a "click on a website" was all it took to identify victims of trafficking & the police could then easily extract the woman, there's a lot more to saving her than that.  She needs some means to have a good life.  What sometimes happens with trafficking victims these days is that they get held in near prison like conditions in immigration centres and then deported. Sometimes a charity will give them some nice clothes & a few hundred euros to take back with them,  but it's far from certain they're gong to have a good life back in the tough economic conditions of their own country.

If you're concerned about innocent women (& men) suffering then IMO the best thing you can do is campaign for a more generous society, with less harsh benefits, and more public sector jobs so that is less easy for nasty employers to exploit low skilled & vulnerable people.  Personally I do this with the Labour party, though its possible to push for more compassion from within the Tories or other right wing parties too.

If you just want to avoid the risk of you yourself contributing to the suffering of trafficked women, then the thing to do might be to ensure you only book women through reputable agencies or otherwise only visits AW lasses who have a number of reviews confirming they seem independent.  I guess that might men travelling to Edinburgh or Glasgow for your punts.

[winkywanky]

I'm sure drug addiction sucks. But I don't see addicts as victims. Victims don't choose their fate. Addicts do. Unless they've been forced for whatever reason to take drugs. But that's another matter. Conversely not all escorts are victims. Many choose what they do and these are the ones we should legitimise. The actual victims should be filtered out and given the help they need. But the status quo makes that impossible. So the two are lumped in together: no one gets what they want or need and the punter is always the bad guy. It amazes me how far we've come as a society (same sex marriage, etc) but still haven't gotten our heads around accepting prostitution as a natural way of life. We've only been doing it for thousands of years! It's the one holdover from a puritanical age that just won't go away.

That's not necessarily how I see them, my point was that society is seeing them that way, hence the free heroin programmes.

I guess whether people think they're victims or not, the pragmatic view would be that if it actually works in getting them off junk, then it's worth doing.

[Krambo99]

The exception would be if there was some reason to think the lass is being held in captivity. If ever I encountered someone like that, I'd maybe try to clarify with the girl, and if there was any doubt call the cops straight away, or maybe even take her out myself if I was in an especially reckless mood.

Yes. If I saw evident signs of bullying or violence I would ask her if she needed help. Even if it was just to make that anonymous call later.

I don't mean this in a nasty way - everyones going to make some wrong assumptions when they first start paying attention to this sort of topic. It's great you obviously care so much,and your post was very articulate.  But just about every other point you make shows you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this topic. For example...

Well, at least you're polite. Which is a bit of a rarity around here. I freely admit I'm somewhat naive with regards to the realities of trafficking simply because it's never been on my radar. But from what you say it sounds like even reporting suspicions would be a waste of time. Unless you have concrete proof (i.e. a girl who's willing to talk) the police either won't be interested or unable to mount any sort of case. And then what happens to them after that? What a depressing fucking thread!

If you're concerned about innocent women (& men) suffering then IMO the best thing you can do is campaign for a more generous society, with less harsh benefits, and more public sector jobs so that is less easy for nasty employers to exploit low skilled & vulnerable people.  Personally I do this with the Labour party, though its possible to push for more compassion from within the Tories or other right wing parties too.

We should ALL be concerned... but as much as I admire your efforts, I didn't see the Labour party legalising brothels during their tenure or making trafficking a campaign issue. Maybe in future with your help. Regardless of political leanings it doesn't seem to be a vote winning issue. Maybe if they put an EU immigration spin on it?

[jesse4585]

What a depressing fucking thread!

True. I rarely get depressed about this sort of thing though as long as I feel I'm doing my bit to try and make things better.  Whether it's campaigning on the wider issues, or donating to the anti trafficking orgs, or whatever else one thinks would help. And not forgetting to take time out to have fun.

But from what you say it sounds like even reporting suspicions would be a waste of time.

I didn't mean to suggest that, just that in borderline cases I don't think you should feel bad about being cautious, I was agreeing with you that it could easilly do more harm than good.  Im not wise enough to know where exactly to draw the line.  In some cases reporitng to the police even when no captivity or violence is involved doubtless had good outcomes.

I didn't see the Labour party legalising brothels during their tenure or making trafficking a campaign issue. Maybe in future with your help.

I'll try but its unlikely to be me that makes a difference as at best I'm a small-medium fish in the huge Labour pond. This might seem a pedantic point, but virtually no one campaigning on this wants full Legalisation. The fear is many WGs would then be exploited by the worst sort of capitalists.  The aim is for Decriminalisation, which in practical terms is very similar to what you seem to have in mind with your idea. When  Labour was last in,  our greatest champion of decrim,  John Mcdonnell, was in the political wilderness. Now he's the single most influential person in the party when it comes to setting policy.

Which is not to say Labour would definitely decriminalise if we win the next election. We have our share of extreme feminists who seek to take things in the other direction with the Nordic model.  What happens depends largely on how successful sex worker rights activists & campaigning WGs themselves are in telling their side of the story and getting the case for decrim high up on the agenda.

[Jonestown]

I seem to recall it was the last Labour government whilst in power that introduced the disastrous strict liability legislation, so I wouldn't hold you breath waiting for the next Labour government to improve things.

But, lets get back to the prime purpose of this forum and leave the party politicals for when and if the Other Topics section is reintroduced, eh ?

[LLPunting]

The Police have plenty of knowledge about what's going on and how the gangs operate.  They may not make obvious moves if there's no safe way of protecting the SPs relatives under threat.  That said you should feel free of conscience to report any suspicious set-up where the girl(s) evidence signs of coercion.  IF it turns out they're willing women then the cops will likely let them ply their trade provided they aren't making a nuisance of themselves as a brothel.  Cops, when left to do the policing, are reasonable and only after the pimps and traffickers who are committing the associated crimes that we all abhor.  It's only when we get hysterical, popularists chasing headlines and personal advancement that we get indescriminate action that threatens the girls more so than their controllers.

[David50]

I have always wondered how the foreign girls actually find out about the parlours . It is always on my mind  that they are brought over here against their will . Which is why I would never go to a parlour.

[Hotdogboy88]

I went direct because i don,t trust plod to act unless pushed, and it took some pushing before i got to meet them, understaffed, under paid and low morale for most of them.
Once i got that bit sorted i told them the full story, never was i made to feel wrong or under threat of arrest for the reasons mentioned. They took the time, well over 2 hours, to get the details correct. Listened when i told them they need to get this right first time or things could be bad for her.
I was called a while later from a local to her officer who was a complete prick, had no idea at all, i called those i spoke to and told them about the prick who could fuck things up, a senior officer then called and told me he had been taken off and reprimanded.

Despite my own mistrust of plod all i can say is in this case they were excellent, and i believe hate pimps as much as we do.

It all depends on you as a person how you deal with it, my mistrust and firm evidence from her made me want to get it right, get it done quickly and i ain,t afraid of dealing with plod, but do know to get anything done they need pushing. If crimestoppers is your way and you can live with that being enough for you it is better than nothing at all.

I feel this is the best course of action in my experience tried crimestoppers first nothing came of it, so in subsequent times I’ve gone directly to the police and only got a lack of interest once. All but once they already had tabs on the addresses just needed some help to gather information and who better than us punters.

Understand that some people prefer to be anonymous as they have worries, but for me the welfare or they’d men/women are more important.

[scutty brown]

The Police have plenty of knowledge about what's going on and how the gangs operate.  They may not make obvious moves if there's no safe way of protecting the SPs relatives under threat.  That said you should feel free of conscience to report any suspicious set-up where the girl(s) evidence signs of coercion.  IF it turns out they're willing women then the cops will likely let them ply their trade provided they aren't making a nuisance of themselves as a brothel.  Cops, when left to do the policing, are reasonable and only after the pimps and traffickers who are committing the associated crimes that we all abhor.  It's only when we get hysterical, popularists chasing headlines and personal advancement that we get indescriminate action that threatens the girls more so than their controllers.

You're making some assumptions there which are wrong.
The police in the main DON'T have much knowledge of whats going on. Unless they are fed information, they are blind. Yes they can check AW and VS and review the adverts in their respective areas, but that doesn't give any details of addresses, or which girls are at risk. That kind of info can only come from informants: worried neighbours or concerned punters. Punters have the insight and knowledge required to pick up on where vulnerable girls are working, no-one else does.
Also the suggestion they understand how the gangs work is a bit hopeful...............
It seems that theres a national task force who look at people smuggling on a macroscale, looking at international smuggling routes. Local police look at the local girls. But there seems to be no-one tasked with actually tracking the gangs within country as they move around and associate. Joined up investigation across county boundaries seems to be too difficult: its the same issue as causes problems investigating the county lines drugs gangs

[LLPunting]

You're making some assumptions there which are wrong.
The police in the main DON'T have much knowledge of whats going on. Unless they are fed information, they are blind. Yes they can check AW and VS and review the adverts in their respective areas, but that doesn't give any details of addresses, or which girls are at risk. That kind of info can only come from informants: worried neighbours or concerned punters. Punters have the insight and knowledge required to pick up on where vulnerable girls are working, no-one else does.
Also the suggestion they understand how the gangs work is a bit hopeful...............
It seems that theres a national task force who look at people smuggling on a macroscale, looking at international smuggling routes. Local police look at the local girls. But there seems to be no-one tasked with actually tracking the gangs within country as they move around and associate. Joined up investigation across county boundaries seems to be too difficult: its the same issue as causes problems investigating the county lines drugs gangs

Thanks for the extra insight, the detail is disappointingly unsurprising however they understand enough to know they can't just blunder in, I wasn't suggesting that they knew the working conditions in any/every location but they would have an inkling of who's operating on their patch (gangs rather than soldiers' names) and how those ops are supported.  Whether they have the resources, political will or information to investigate further is sadly victim to their overall constraint on resource and priority (before we even consider if CPS can/will make something of it).  Also unsurprising that the horribly variable ability of the investigators may well jeopardize investigations that might be greenlit.
Totally agree that were they allowed to engage with punters in a suitably discrete, trusting and encouraging manner they could get a far more realtime appreciation of the situation at the coalface but they know they'd only likely nab the ground troops.   

How are you sure there's no-one bridging the gap between local vice and national task force?  That's a pretty obvious glaring gap if it were there.  Then again this is just one part of the puzzle of combating (international) organised crime, adding in all the politicking about priorities (drugs, counterfeiting, grand theft, fraud, money-laundering, etc.) a paraylsis of prosecution at higher level seems inevitable.  All the less possible once Brexit happens if we don't maintain or increase police and security cooperation with the EU.

[Bristol Bloke]

The same considerations apply to most foreign sex worker groups in the UK.
The current Brazilian influx is the result of existing organised crime groups realising that Romanian girls are increasingly being stopped at immigration -and Brexit is likely to block them completely. The Albanian gangs are highly adaptable at changing their supply lines for drugs, they're just doing the same with girls.
Romanian (many/most Romanians aren't really Romanian), Hungarian, Bulgarian, Russian..................all are easy targets for trafficking groups. In the northwest we have regional variations: Romanians in Blackburn, Russians in Liverpool (usually hidden and only offered in private clubs), Poles in Preston (nearly all beholden to one female pimp), a few Hungarians in Burnley who are linked to Warrington and the East Midlands.......I could go on for ages plotting the links. The simple fact is you have to be wary of all foreign sex workers.
Maybe the only exceptions are Thais - most of them who I know here in the northwest are in the UK as the result of failed catalogue bride marriages

I don't know where you get that from. All the Romanians I have ever seen spoke Romanian. And I know this because I can speak Romanian. Pretty much the only other country they could have come from is Moldova and they have a totally different accent.

[Bristol Bloke]

I don't know about this parlour thing. We know where the parlours are and what goes on there. You can imagine that the police do. If the girls were there against their will, why aren't there any raids?