Punters and the police

[Tim Slim]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

There are AW service provider adverts which are relatively old show frequent log-ins, but have 0 feedback. Do the old bill ever try to catch punters out by placing fake AW adverts?

[mrfishyfoo]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

There are AW service provider adverts which are relatively old show frequent log-ins, but have 0 feedback. Do the old bill ever try to catch punters out by placing fake AW adverts?

Punting with an escort is not illegal so no crime has taken place.

[munterhunter]

Mr FF is right it's not illegal to use an escort or wg unless she is underage or being coerced in which case ignorance of her situation is not a defence.  The police used to put under covers wpcs on the street to catch kerb crawlers a few years ago.  I used to live close to the red light district in Nottingham.  You'd know when they were out because the real street girls used to scarper. Another favourite trick was to have 2 cops in a car with L plates driving round not a well thought out plan to catch kerb crawlers.. who does driving lessons at 11pm? These days I think they police red light areas by using cctv cameras. As for honey traps don't think they bother.

[scutty brown]

there was a Vivastreet advert a few months back which was answered by a Lancs police voicemail system.
Make of that what you will...

[sonic999]

there was a Vivastreet advert a few months back which was answered by a Lancs police voicemail system.
Make of that what you will...

Not the sharpest knives in the cutlery drawer then.

[cueball]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

There are AW service provider adverts which are relatively old show frequent log-ins, but have 0 feedback. Do the old bill ever try to catch punters out by placing fake AW adverts?

I once had a prossie dress up as a wpc.... She kept the hat on all the way through the punt 

Does that help? 

[Punter121212]

I actually struggled with this during a discussion a while back, my safe position was this:

Basically a prostitute is a girl who sells sex for money, an escort is a girl who sells her time and companionship for money.

Its illegal to buy sex from a prostitute so don't do it. 

Its not illegal to buy time and companionship from an escort. 

Of-course most of us punters are fucking irresistible to the ladies so if something of a sexual nature does occurs during such a meeting well thats just a bonus, if you are lucky enough to experience such an event and feel the need to brag then by all means logon to the forum because were always ready to listen. 

For policing they can and do commit resources into limiting what they call 'off street prostitution', here they just need to prove that the punter is committed to paying money to receive a service of a sexual nature. Its not necessary for that service to have been provided or for the money to change hands.

[OldAdmin]

I recommend you read up on UK law: External Link/Members Only

It is NOT illegal to pay for sex in England/Wales/Scotland, as long as the prossies is not under-18, not trafficked, etc. (more above).
It is illegal in Northern Ireland.

"Time and companionship" is rubbish from the USA, it's dismissed by their courts. Would a wife believe "time and companionship" if her husband saw an escort? Neither would the courts.

[Punter121212]

I recommend you read up on UK law: External Link/Members Only

It is NOT illegal to pay for sex in England/Wales/Scotland, as long as the prossies is not under-18, not trafficked, etc. (more above).
It is illegal in Northern Ireland.

"Time and companionship" is rubbish from the USA, it's dismissed by their courts. Would a wife believe "time and companionship" if her husband saw an escort? Neither would the courts.

Yes, Id still play it safe though because the legislation is left open to interpretation.

The legislation im referring to makes it  'an offence to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc''.

Baring in mind that one of the reasons the legislation was introduced was to 'suppress demand for sexual services'  i remain suspicious as to the limitations of the 'etc' bit at the end and to be honest... id rather not be the one to test it.

Time and companionship is a load of rubbish I agree, the point is you never state that your purchasing anything more than that, give them nothing to work with and the CPS will not take it to court in the first place.

[daviemac]

Yes, Id still play it safe though because the legislation is left open to interpretation.

The legislation im referring to makes it  'an offence to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc''.

Baring in mind that one of the reasons the legislation was introduced was to 'suppress demand for sexual services'  i remain suspicious as to the limitations of the 'etc' bit at the end and to be honest... id rather not be the one to test it.

Time and companionship is a load of rubbish I agree, the point is you never state that your purchasing anything more that, give them nothing to work with and the CPS will not take it to court.

It's not open to any interpretation if the prossie is a willing participant no laws have been broken.   Perhaps punting isn't really for you if you're that paranoid.    .   

[scutty brown]

the problem in all this is that the "an offence to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc'' is a strict liability fault: if its determined the girl is underage / forced / trafficked then the punter is guilty: there's no permitted defence. And trafficking is the grey area: a pimp driving even a willing girl to a new location is by definition trafficking her. And if your phone number is on her/their phone then you have a potential problem
In several of the recent Lancashire cases the girls were willingly trafficked and refused to testify, but the pimps were still jailed. The police didn't go after the punters in those cases, but they are now

[daviemac]

the problem in all this is that the "an offence to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc'' is a strict liability fault: if its determined the girl is underage / forced / trafficked then the punter is guilty: there's no permitted defence. And trafficking is the grey area: a pimp driving even a willing girl to a new location is by definition trafficking her. And if your phone number is on her/their phone then you have a potential problem
In several of the recent Lancashire cases the girls were willingly trafficked and refused to testify, but the pimps were still jailed. The police didn't go after the punters in those cases, but they are now

That's not strictly true, to be guilty of trafficking within the UK the trafficking has to result in an offence under part 1 of the sexual offences act, so prossies being driven around willingly would not result in an offence.

If girls are brought into the country for the purpose of prostitution then they could be classes as trafficked and the offence is committed at the point of entry, any pimps involved and they could be charged with controlling prostitutes for gain. 

At the end of the day stay away from the likes of Romanians (who are most likely to be trafficked) and stick to well reviewed prossies all should be OK.

[Stalinator]

It's not open to any interpretation if the prossie is a willing participant no laws have been broken.   Perhaps punting isn't really for you if you're that paranoid.    .

+1000

If you can't enjoy punting without always looking over your shoulder it is not the hobby for you.

[scutty brown]

That's not strictly true, to be guilty of trafficking within the UK the trafficking has to result in an offence under part 1 of the sexual offences act, so prossies being driven around willingly would not result in an offence.

theres new catch-all legislation, which is what is now being used: Section 2 Modern Slavery Act 2015
External Link/Members Only

"Arranging or facilitating the travel of another person with a view to exploitation - Section 2 Modern Slavery Act 2015

    A person commits an offence if the person arranges or facilitates the travel of another person (V) with a view to V being exploited.
    It is irrelevant whether the victim consents to the travel (whether V is an adult or child).
    A person may in particular arrange or facilitate V's travel by recruiting V, transporting or transferring V, harbouring or receiving V, or transferring or exchanging control over V.
    A person arranges or a person arranges or facilitates V's travel with a view to V being exploited only if
        the person intends to exploit V in any part of the world during or after travel; or
        the person knows or ought to know that another person is likely to exploit V in any part of the world during or after travel.
    Travel is defined as:
        Arriving in, or entering, any country
        Departing from any country, or
        Travelling within any country.
    A person who is a United Kingdom (UK) national commits an offence regardless of where the arranging or facilitating takes place, or where the travel takes place.
    A person who is not a UK national commits an offence if any part of the arranging or facilitating takes place in the UK, or the travel consists of arrival or entry into, departure from, or travel within the UK.

Section 3 defines the meaning of exploitation for the purposes of section 2. A person is exploited only if one or more of the following apply:

    Slavery servitude and forced or compulsory labour, where a person is the victim of an offence under section 1 Modern Slavery Act 2015 (see Slavery, Servitude, Forced and Compulsory Labour below).
    Sexual exploitation, which involves the commission of an offence under
        Section 1(1)(a) of the Protection of Children's Act 1978 (indecent photographs of children), or
        Part 1 Sexual Offences Act 2003
    which would involve the commission of such an offence if it were done in England and Wales."

theres more, but those are the key parts

[daviemac]

That all relates to the person concerned being exploited. If a girl knowingly and willingly engages in prostitution, doesn't solicit in public and as long as no others gain from her prostitution then no offences have been committed.

If she's willingly brought into the country then coerced into prostitution with pimps taking money, she's then being exploited and offences are committed.   

[mrhappypants]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

There are AW service provider adverts which are relatively old show frequent log-ins, but have 0 feedback. Do the old bill ever try to catch punters out by placing fake AW adverts?

Yep particularly on the look out for the 0 review fantasists I hear.  National press coverage, gang fucked up the arse by dozens of burly PC's, long custodial sentence served as a hardened con's fuck-boy, rented out on the wing for a couple of snout a go.   Nasty.

Happy punting.

[scutty brown]

That all relates to the person concerned being exploited. If a girl knowingly and willingly engages in prostitution, doesn't solicit in public and as long as no others gain from her prostitution then no offences have been committed.

If she's willingly brought into the country then coerced into prostitution with pimps taking money, she's then being exploited and offences are committed.   

But just about all EE girls have a courier / pimp / sergei / gopher, and as long as they're around the trafficking charges will stick - even if the girl voluntarily entered the country for prostitution. In cases when the girls on her own she's being handed over to Immigration and getting kicked out of the country, basically for breaching work regulations - unless she also has a real job (like working a till in Sainsbury's)

[Punter121212]

I recently had a punt with a great girl, very willing great service.

I knew from the start that there was someone else in the flat and I was 99% sure it was a bloke. At the time I had no idea what their relationship status was and to be honest I didn't care, the girl had great reviews on here so I had no concerns.

If however it had of transpired that the bloke in the other room was in some way controlling her either physically (through threats either towards her or people she knows) or emotionally (deceptive relationship, blackmail, guilt, debt) then under the current UK law I could have been prosecuted for engaging with someone whose been subjected to force.

Unfortunately this covers quite a large percentage of the girls in this business (its sad but its true) so as I've said previously, once you take into account all the unknowns its always best to revert to the good old defense of 'buying someones time and companionship' and if anything else occurs, well that's just a bonus (its bollocks but its the best we've got). That puts the burden of proof onto the CPS to show that you were intentionally paying for sex, if they cannot prove intent the chances of it going to court are slim. If on the other hand you say you were paying for sex because under English Law its legal, however you didnt know at the time that the girl was under any type of force, the police will take it all the way and your names going to be in the papers. 

With that said, its always good to see different points of view on key issues such as this, especially when there not aligned with my own.

Am I a little bit paranoid.. definitely.
Over cautious... fuck yes.
A dedicated punter... thats me! 

 

[Thecunninglinguist]

The thread revolves basically "Am l likely to be prosecuted for punting". The premise that the police would prosecute you is entirely false. The police may make out a case for prosection but it is always the Crown Prosecution Service who decide on charges and whether or not to prosecute. There are national guidelines on prosecution but each area has it's own priorities and these and where the evidence bar is set can differ considerably. It can be down to the local head of the CPS or just how much bottle/interest individual solicitors have.

[daviemac]

But just about all EE girls have a courier / pimp / sergei / gopher, and as long as they're around the trafficking charges will stick - even if the girl voluntarily entered the country for prostitution. In cases when the girls on her own she's being handed over to Immigration and getting kicked out of the country, basically for breaching work regulations - unless she also has a real job (like working a till in Sainsbury's)

That's very true that's why I said this earlier -

At the end of the day stay away from the likes of Romanians (who are most likely to be trafficked) and stick to well reviewed prossies all should be OK.

[daviemac]

The thread revolves basically "Am l likely to be prosecuted for punting". The premise that the police would prosecute you is entirely false. The police may make out a case for prosection but it is always the Crown Prosecution Service who decide on charges and whether or not to prosecute. There are national guidelines on prosecution but each area has it's own priorities and these and where the evidence bar is set can differ considerably. It can be down to the local head of the CPS or just how much bottle/interest individual solicitors have.

Nobody has said it's the police who prosecute we all know they just arrest and gather evidence and the CPS do the prosecuting. The OP's question was about the police setting 'honey traps' in order to gather that evidence.

[stonebow1]

In any case the police have far better things to do, in it's current state the punting industry is causing relatively few problems within UK society. As long as punters aren't being overtly blase about what's going on they should be absolutely fine.

It's literally impossible to stop prostitution so if you drive the industry further underground the police just end up creating far bigger problems.

[daviemac]

In any case the police have far better things to do, in it's current state the punting industry is causing relatively few problems within UK society. As long as punters aren't being overtly blase about what's going on they should be absolutely fine.

It's literally impossible to stop prostitution so if you drive the industry further underground the police just end up creating far bigger problems.

Seemed to have found time to do this with the Romanian gangs.  - 
External Link/Members Only

[poseidon]

Long time AW profiles with 0 feedback are more likely to be PG scammers / webcammers. The police aren't interested in honeytrapping punters and if they did, they wouldn't likely have much of a conviction rate as they'd have to prove the "prostitute" is a real woman who is being coerced/forced into it. An undercover cop does not qualify as a human trafficking victim.

The police are mostly cracking down on brothels, pimps, and street prostitution (both the prostitutes and kerb crawlers). If you're seeing genuine AW escorts or going to legitimate walk-ups/parlours then you will be fine.

Also sex buying has recently been made illegal in Scotland but I think it will take some time (if ever) before punters can get prossecuted. Again, punters would have to be caught and evidence presented to show they were paying for sex.

[Marmalade]

They're more interested in headlines and being able to confiscate earnings, a large proportion of which they keep.

Recently ... their arrested a prossie's elderly cleaning lady in Bournemouth 

Hidden Image/Members Only
Hidden Image/Members Only

[Marmalade]

Also sex buying has recently been made illegal in Scotland but I think it will take some time (if ever) before punters can get prossecuted. Again, punters would have to be caught and evidence presented to show they were paying for sex.

Are you sure? I must have missed it. They presented a bill (again). No indication that it has been passed into law that I know of ...

[Shynuthorny69]

Just started watching a series on BBC 3 about the UKs only legalised (currently) red light district where curb crawling is completely legal its called sex drugs and murder and you can find it on their YouTube channel... It's interesting stuff although the girls are all addicted to crack and smack are are pretty much all rough as fuck... Street escorts have never appealed to me... Curb crawling, running a brothel or working in a brothel or pimping are all still criminal offences, paying for sex with an escort however is completely legal as long as it doesn't involve approaching women on the street through a car window

[bigmanbigman]

They're more interested in headlines and being able to confiscate earnings, a large proportion of which they keep.

Recently ... their arrested a prossie's elderly cleaning lady in Bournemouth 

Hidden Image/Members Only
Hidden Image/Members Only

plod at his best .

[Shynuthorny69]

Correct lol bills, statutes and acts are not lawful only legal and only as such when you agree to be bound to them by the old bill... Never acknowledge that you understand them... Law only covers loss or harm to another person or a breach of the peace... Anything outside is legal and therefore a load of rubbish and not lawful

[Jimmyredcab]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

What would they charge them with. ???????????????????????

I have known them to use policewomen in red light areas to trap kerb crawlers -----------because that is illegal. 

[daviemac]

Correct lol bills, statutes and acts are not lawful only legal and only as such when you agree to be bound to them by the old bill... Never acknowledge that you understand them... Law only covers loss or harm to another person or a breach of the peace... Anything outside is legal and therefore a load of rubbish and not lawful

Is it just me who doesn't understand this. can someone please explain what it means.    

[scutty brown]

Is it just me who doesn't understand this. can someone please explain what it means.   

I don't understand either, and Google hasn't developed a gibberish translator yet

[maxxblue]

Are you sure? I must have missed it. They presented a bill (again). No indication that it has been passed into law that I know of ...

I wonder if he has Scotland and Northern Ireland mixed up?

[smiths]

Have the police ever been known to honey trap punters?

There are AW service provider adverts which are relatively old show frequent log-ins, but have 0 feedback. Do the old bill ever try to catch punters out by placing fake AW adverts?

Yes for kerb crawling punters who ARE breaking the law. They wont be honey trapping punters booking WGs off A/W as they ARENT breaking the law, unless its proved a WG was underage and/or being coerced. An ANY WG could be being coerced for all I would know as fact as I am not privy to their personal lifes.

[smiths]

Is it just me who doesn't understand this. can someone please explain what it means.   

I cant, as its a lot of jibberish.

[Shynuthorny69]

It means that under the English law, you can only be prosecuted lawfully for causing harm or loss to another person or for breach of the peace, anything else ie any legal act is null and void and unless you give consent.. ie when plod says you are under arrest for something not within the above, they'll always ask if you understand and if you say YES you have consented to be bound via verbal contract to said bullshit statute or act and therefore render yourself liable to prosecution... I know not everyone can get their head round it but most police don't even know the law it seems and carry out illegal stop and searches/arrests everyday... 

[maxxblue]

Just started watching a series on BBC 3 about the UKs only legalised (currently) red light district where curb crawling is completely legal its called sex drugs and murder and you can find it on their YouTube channel... It's interesting stuff although the girls are all addicted to crack and smack are are pretty much all rough as fuck... Street escorts have never appealed to me... Curb crawling, running a brothel or working in a brothel or pimping are all still criminal offences, paying for sex with an escort however is completely legal as long as it doesn't involve approaching women on the street through a car window

My understanding is that it there are no legalised red light districts in the UK. The Holbeck scheme in Leeds is an agreement between various agencies to allow the police to tolerate it between certain hours. This is akin to the decision by some police forces not to prosecute people found with small quantities of cannabis for personal use - like the Holbeck scheme, it is not the same as legalising.

[maxxblue]

It means that under the English law, you can only be prosecuted lawfully for causing harm or loss to another person or for breach of the peace, anything else ie any legal act is null and void and unless you give consent.. ie when plod says you are under arrest for something not within the above, they'll always ask if you understand and if you say YES you have consented to be bound via verbal contract to said bullshit statute or act and therefore render yourself liable to prosecution... I know not everyone can get their head round it but most police don't even know the law it seems and carry out illegal stop and searches/arrests everyday...

Do you have any links to back up what you say, shynuthorny?

[scutty brown]

It means that under the English law, you can only be prosecuted lawfully for causing harm or loss to another person or for breach of the peace, anything else ie any legal act is null and void and unless you give consent.. ie when plod says you are under arrest for something not within the above, they'll always ask if you understand and if you say YES you have consented to be bound via verbal contract to said bullshit statute or act and therefore render yourself liable to prosecution... I know not everyone can get their head round it but most police don't even know the law it seems and carry out illegal stop and searches/arrests everyday...

as an argument thats bollox

[Shynuthorny69]

Nope it's just English law I'm afraid look into it

[scutty brown]

Nope it's just English law I'm afraid look into it

OK, tell us where to look

[daviemac]

It means that under the English law, you can only be prosecuted lawfully for causing harm or loss to another person or for breach of the peace, anything else ie any legal act is null and void and unless you give consent.. ie when plod says you are under arrest for something not within the above, they'll always ask if you understand and if you say YES you have consented to be bound via verbal contract to said bullshit statute or act and therefore render yourself liable to prosecution... I know not everyone can get their head round it but most police don't even know the law it seems and carry out illegal stop and searches/arrests everyday...

Have you been drinking      Of course you can't be arrested for doing something that's not illegal.   

You can be arrested if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you have committed a criminal act. Also if you're arrested and cautioned for a particular offence, even if no charges are brought it will show on an enhanced CRB check listed as NFA. 

By cautioned I mean 'you're being arrested on suspicion of xxxx you're not obliged to say anything etc'   

[Shynuthorny69]

You can be arrested but they have to show reasonable grounds, I have been stopped both on foot and in the car before, both times they've asked for my name and address to which I've replied "am I obliged to answer that?" to which they always reply no, to which I always ask "am I being detained then" to which they always reply no so I always reply "see you later then" and go about my day they don'tike that people know their rights when it come to dealing with the police, they can't actually do anything with you if they can't ascertain who you are, you can also press charges the other way if they abuse their so called power, they seem to forget that they are public servants who are employed solely to protect the general public and nothing else...

External Link/Members Only

What you don't seem to understand, maybe I didn't word it correctly, statutes and acts only carry the weight of the law if you consent to be bound by them...

[daviemac]

You can be arrested but they have to show reasonable grounds, I have been stopped both on foot and in the car before, both times they've asked for my name and address to which I've replied "am I obliged to answer that?" to which they always reply no, to which I always ask "am I being detained then" to which they always reply no so I always reply "see you later then" and go about my day they don'tike that people know their rights when it come to dealing with the police, they can't actually do anything with you if they can't ascertain who you are, you can also press charges the other way if they abuse their so called power, they seem to forget that they are public servants who are employed solely to protect the general public and nothing else...

External Link/Members Only

What you don't seem to understand, maybe I didn't word it correctly, statutes and acts only carry the weight of the law if you consent to be bound by them...

What you don't understand is if they suspect you of something illegal they will arrest you, if they don't suspect you of anything illegal they won't. If you are arrested you have to give your name if you're not arrested you don't.   If you are arrested it shows on a CRB check.   

But I'll just leave you to muddle about in you own little world.     

[scutty brown]

What you don't seem to understand, maybe I didn't word it correctly, statutes and acts only carry the weight of the law if you consent to be bound by them...

that is fundamentally untrue

[Shynuthorny69]

If you've broken the law you can be arrested if you've done nothing wrong then don't even give them the time of day you don't even need to acknowledge them

[Third Man]

Long time AW profiles with 0 feedback are more likely to be PG scammers / webcammers. The police aren't interested in honeytrapping punters and if they did, they wouldn't likely have much of a conviction rate as they'd have to prove the "prostitute" is a real woman who is being coerced/forced into it. An undercover cop does not qualify as a human trafficking victim.

The police are mostly cracking down on brothels, pimps, and street prostitution (both the prostitutes and kerb crawlers). If you're seeing genuine AW escorts or going to legitimate walk-ups/parlours then you will be fine.

Also sex buying has recently been made illegal in Scotland but I think it will take some time (if ever) before punters can get prossecuted. Again, punters would have to be caught and evidence presented to show they were paying for sex.

last paragraph is wrong about Scotland, it has not been made illegal in Scotland. It was mentioned at the snp conference but that's all. that was just a motion put forward by this feminist bint and a religious clown but that vote meant nothing at the time

[poseidon]

Are you sure? I must have missed it. They presented a bill (again). No indication that it has been passed into law that I know of ...

I stand corrected. To be fair, it was something I read it on SAAFE a couple of months ago and perhaps didn't realise it hadn't actually passed into law.

External Link/Members Only

Good thing is, SNP losing a lot of seats this election means criminialising sex buying is far less likely.

[bigmanbigman]

If you have the money for a top lawyer ,£500 plus hour they can swing most things if not best to not wind them up.
As poster say crb check could loose you your job or make it impossible to get one

[King Kenny]

It means that under the English law, you can only be prosecuted lawfully for causing harm or loss to another person or for breach of the peace, anything else ie any legal act is null and void and unless you give consent.. ie when plod says you are under arrest for something not within the above, they'll always ask if you understand and if you say YES you have consented to be bound via verbal contract to said bullshit statute or act and therefore render yourself liable to prosecution... I know not everyone can get their head round it but most police don't even know the law it seems and carry out illegal stop and searches/arrests everyday...

My bullshit detector's just exploded.