Seventeen arrested in human trafficking raids in London

[winkywanky]

Stop there..... the laws not how you feel it should be it's how it is.

The law concerning trafficking is far reaching and simply driving a pro$$ie around the country to work is classed as trafficking, it's based on the movement of the pro$$ie, even if she's travelling of her own free will.

Like many modern laws they are written in a far reaching manner which make it far more difficult for the criminals legal team to wangle him / her out of any charges 

I know the law isn't always how I feel it should be. And if what you say is true then I think the law is an ass in this instance. Or at least it gives the wrong impression to the public at large. Certainly in terms of the way trafficking is portrayed in the media, it gives the impression of poor, helpless girls being forced to be sex workers against their will.

But perhaps that's a fault with our media?

I think the vast majority of foreign WGs in this country are effectively economic migrants, but simply earning far more than they could ever hope to do by picking fruit or working in Starbucks.

If everything about the girl's sex working here is with her full and knowing consent - and it's still regarded as trafficking - then it would appear the law is treating it like running a mobile brothel.

[James999]

I think the law is an ass in this instance. Or at least it gives the wrong impression to the public at large. Certainly in terms of the way trafficking is portrayed in the media, it gives the impression of poor, helpless girls being forced to be sex workers against their will.

Why's the law an ass, it covers that as well, it just avoids the defence "she was willing and consented to travel" 

[James999]

I think the vast majority of foreign WGs in this country are effectively economic migrants, but simply earning far more than they could ever hope to do by picking fruit or working in Starbucks.

Probably true, but that doesn't make good headlines in the media 

[puntingpumping1920]

You make fair points about legalising things and enabling verification.

But is it really fair to say that girls who have come to the UK willingly and knowingly to be sex workers are really 'trafficked'? I don't know the actual wording of the laws around this, but for me, trafficking is when a girl is got here on our shores under false pretences, and then pretty well railroaded into sex work. If a girl does it willingly, surely she has selected the pimp as her 'agent', however foolish that may be, and notwithstanding any other laws that the lowlife will probably break during or after that process?

 
According to the law
 
It is irrelevant whether the victim consents to the travel 

[winkywanky]

Well if you're correct about any kind of movement of the girl being faciltated by someone else in pursuit of her sex work being actual trafficking, then the media need to stop being so fluffy about it and portray it for what it is. It's economic migration, albeit outlawed because it involves sex work.

I think the vast majority of people would think of/consider trafficking as being coercive. They (and I) would obviously be wrong.

[winkywanky]

 
According to the law
 
It is irrelevant whether the victim consents to the travel

Like I say, I was unaware of this. I should know more about it, being a member on here. And I wouldn't mind betting anyone not involved in punting would think the same.

[winkywanky]

Probably true, but that doesn't make good headlines in the media 

That's a given.

[winkywanky]

Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of course, however it says this:

Sex trafficking is human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, including sexual slavery.[1] A victim is forced, in one of a variety of ways, into a situation of dependency on their trafficker(s) and then used by said trafficker(s) to give sexual services to customers.[2] There are three types of activities defined as sex trafficking crimes: acquisition, transportation and exploitation;[1] this includes child sex tourism (CST), domestic minor sex trafficking (DMST) or other kinds of commercial sexual exploitation of children, and prostitution.[2] Sex trafficking is one of the biggest criminal businesses in the world.

In 2012 the International Labour Organization, reported 20.9 million people were subjected to forced labour, and 22% (4.5 million) who are victims of forced sexual exploitation.[3] The same organization reported in 2016 that of the estimated 25 million persons in forced labor, 5 million were victims of sexual exploitation.[4][5] However, due to the covertness of sex trafficking, obtaining accurate, reliable statistics is difficult for researchers.[6] The global commercial profits for sexual slavery are estimated to be $99B according to this same source.[7] In 2005, the figure was given as $9B for the total human trafficking industry.[8][9]

Most victims find themselves in coercive or abusive situations from which escape is both difficult and dangerous. Locations where this practice occurs span the globe and reflect an intricate web between nations, making it very difficult to construct viable solutions to this human rights problem.

[James999]

Well if you're correct about any kind of movement of the girl being faciltated by someone else in pursuit of her sex work being actual trafficking, then the media need to stop being so fluffy about it and portray it for what it is. It's economic migration, albeit outlawed because it involves sex work.

I think the vast majority of people would think of/consider trafficking as being coercive. They (and I) would obviously be wrong.

You seem to be missing the point, the law is written that way to avoid the prosecution having to prove the "victim" was forcedm thus making prosecutions of pimps / traffickers more successful, otherwise Sergei would simply force the girls to say they consented (or he'd kill their families back home) and he's potentially off the trafficking charge.

You seem to be calling the law an ass when you don't understand it, far from being an ass it's quite clever, but then it's fair to assume the legislation was drafted and finalised by minds superior to yours and mine 

[puntingpumping1920]

Not really, how many nail bars and tanning salons are fronts for criminality, they could do the same with brothels getting someone else to front them.

 
If legalized, punters would be able to see all brothels who are currently licensed to operate in Britain.
 

[James999]

If legalized, punters would be able to see all brothels who are currently licensed to operate in Britain.

Which would likely only have the old washed up pro$$ies working in them as the others wouldn't want to have to declare income / pay tax or fuck up their benefits, oh and pay a percentage to the pimp 

Imagine Sally Sucker currently..... £150 for a fuck... No overheads and £150 to spend on Coke / canabis / drink / shoes etc No tax, no benefits impacted and work from council house.

Sally Sucker works in Brothel, Paid £150, Pimp takes £70 Tax and N I £35 petrol to / from Brothel £5 and she gets £40 and it fucks up her benefits

[Itsnotshy]

 
It doesn't solve the problem, but it allows the customer to know which brothels are run by trafficking gangs
 
There needs to be laws that require that prostitutes undergo regular health checks for sexually transmitted diseases too

If Brothels were legal, permanent and not transitory, and registered the police would be able to check regularly, sit and talk to the girls, and find out if any problems exist.
But this is not likely as it would require the State to acknowledge that people like to do yukky things outside of 'stable' relationships.
And that a penis placed inside a vagina, without love being involved, does not neccesarily permanently damage a woman's mental health.

[puntingpumping1920]

Wikipedia is not the be all and end all of course, however it says this:

 
That's wikipedia's definition. 
 
Modern Slavery Act 2015
 
Check (2)
 
External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

The bit about 'situation of dependency on their traffickers' is the clincher I guess.

Be it merely providing everything the girl needs to be the cash cow, from providing transport and logistics, writing the AW profile, or ensuring the girl only has contact with others within the group, to 'I look after your passport for safe-keeping' or 'looking after her money and keeping the books'.

I guess the latter examples would qualify as slavery, ie little or no realistic chance of escape.

The former examples above would explain why some of the girls are seemingly at a loss and/or upset when their 'boyfriend' who they consider has been 'looking after them' is arrested and then jailed.

[winkywanky]

You seem to be missing the point, the law is written that way to avoid the prosecution having to prove the "victim" was forcedm thus making prosecutions of pimps / traffickers more successful, otherwise Sergei would simply force the girls to say they consented (or he'd kill their families back home) and he's potentially off the trafficking charge.

You seem to be calling the law an ass when you don't understand it, far from being an ass it's quite clever, but then it's fair to assume the legislation was drafted and finalised by minds superior to yours and mine 

I take your point.

But as we all know, legislation is frequently drafted which needs to be amended over something which should've been thought of in the first place, and has been subsequently circumvented by 'normal/devious members of the public'.

Perhaps in this instance they actually made the legislation do what they intended it to do.

[winkywanky]

 
That's wikipedia's definition. 
 
Modern Slavery Act 2015
 
Check (2)
 
External Link/Members Only

Well reading that, it all seems to hinge upon whether the girl (V) is 'exploited' and/or 'controlled'.

It provides no definition/examples of either of those terms. Although perhaps this is stated elsewhere in other, existing legislation?

[scutty brown]

You seem to be missing the point, the law is written that way to avoid the prosecution having to prove the "victim" was forcedm thus making prosecutions of pimps / traffickers more successful, otherwise Sergei would simply force the girls to say they consented (or he'd kill their families back home) and he's potentially off the trafficking charge.

You seem to be calling the law an ass when you don't understand it, far from being an ass it's quite clever, but then it's fair to assume the legislation was drafted and finalised by minds superior to yours and mine 

Exactly. For instance Lancs police have had several successful "victimless" prosecutions where the girls refused to give evidence, yet the crims were found guilty and imprisoned.
You've got two problems if you have to prove the victim was forced:
1) hidden threats against the girl or family
2) a heck of a lot of girls are effectively brainwashed into thinking they're in a relationship with the pimp and then get coerced into working, without even realising they're being deceived. Think how many women live in dysfunctional abusive relationships but refuse to leave because they're "in love".......for many sex work is just the next step along the process of being abused without realising its happening

[puntingpumping1920]

Well if you're correct about any kind of movement of the girl being faciltated by someone else in pursuit of her sex work being actual trafficking, then the media need to stop being so fluffy about it and portray it for what it is. It's economic migration, albeit outlawed because it involves sex work.

I think the vast majority of people would think of/consider trafficking as being coercive. They (and I) would obviously be wrong.

 
Most are willinging trafficked
 
It's the working conditions that are the problem:
 
Violence or threats of violence by the Pimp         
Restriction of movement 
Threats against the escort's family
Debt bondage
Withholding of wages
Excessive working hours being imposed by the pimp
Hazardous working conditions being imposed by the pimp
Poor accommodation provided by the pimp
 
Some brothels have been given the green light by police as long as sex workers are safe

[winkywanky]

Yes, it's clear that many obvious brothels are tolerated by the police (even though technically illegal), so long as there are no complaints by the public, and I guess no suspicions that girls are being worked against their will...or indeed, 'trafficked'!

[puntingpumping1920]

Well reading that, it all seems to hinge upon whether the girl (V) is 'exploited' and/or 'controlled'.

It provides no definition/examples of either of those terms. Although perhaps this is stated elsewhere in other, existing legislation?

 
There is no definitive definition of a trafficked victim
 
They are defining features of a trafficked victim

[winkywanky]

 
Most are willinging trafficked
 
It's the working conditions that are the problem:
 
Violence or threats of violence by the Pimp         
Restriction of movement 
Threats against the escort's family
Debt bondage
Withholding of wages
Excessive working hours being imposed by the pimp
Hazardous working conditions being imposed by the pimp
Poor accommodation provided by the pimp
 

I guess the above points you raise (and no doubt some others) would fall under the categories of 'exploited' or 'controlled' for the purposes of the anti-trafficking law.

[winkywanky]

For argument's sake, if there were a really nice pimp (yes, I know  ) who made no threats of violence, didn't restrict a girl's movement, didn't make threats to her family, always gave the girl her cut at the end of every day, didn't impose excessive working hours or hazardous working conditions, and provided nice, safe hotels for the girl to work in (and didn't do all the other nasty shit that pimps normally do)...in other words looked after his girl.

I guess he would still fall foul of the anti-trafficking laws.

(And on a side-note, I wish we could have compulsory ID cards in this country, linked to the new electronic passport channels at all our ports and airports. Once these fuckers were convicted and served whatever sentence handed down (as well as all the other foreign criminal dross we let in), they could be much more effectively kept out of the country. No, it wouldn't be totally resisitant to fraud, but it's surely be a start).

[king tarzan]

... and let's hope that means just what it says; not that they're let out after only 10 years or so.

Sadly in the UK we have a pussycat criminal justice system..🐱🐱🐱🐱.....

[puntingpumping1920]

Reform in this area is long overdue.
 
Unregulated industry exists in the shadows, making prostitutes vulnerable and those who are already in a vulnerable position, even more so.
 
A couple of headlines/ public pressure and the government may possibly make it illegal to purchase sexual services for money
 
The scale these organized criminals operate at that possibly could happen

[winkywanky]

Perhaps there should be legalised and properly regulated brothels in the UK, tax and NI paid and the girls looked after. It would generate a LOT of revenue for the taxman, ie country. Like some other European countries. It'd be a bit more grown-up rather than sweeping it under the carpet in our usual sexually-repressed British way, and would probably get rid of a lot of the crime around sex working.

Of course we'd never convince he likes of Harriet Harman of course  .

[S.X. MacHine]

Legalise brothels. Problem solved.

Well, yes and no. Juergen Rudloff, owner of several mega brothels in Germany is serving five years because he resorted to Romanian pimps to supply girls when he couldn’t recruit enough legitimately.
Small brothels, New Zealand style, might, on the other hand, be the answer. Girls work voluntarily there, but in a protective environment.

[puntingpumping1920]

Well, yes and no. Juergen Rudloff, owner of several mega brothels in Germany is serving five years because he resorted to Romanian pimps to supply girls when he couldn’t recruit enough legitimately.
Small brothels, New Zealand style, might, on the other hand, be the answer. Girls work voluntarily there, but in a protective environment.

 
Legalizing and the regulation of brothels in Germany made it easier for him to get caught
 
Sex workers must register with local authorities in Germany
 
Legalizing and regulating the industry will not eliminate the illegal prostitution market
 

[winkywanky]

Surely it will reduce it, and expose it more? And make that easier to police than currently is the case?

[tantric talents]

Surely it will reduce it, and expose it more? And make that easier to police than currently is the case?

+1
However I can never imagine anything like the German mega brothels opening and being accepted here!

[winkywanky]

+1
However I can never imagine anything like the German mega brothels opening and being accepted here!

Agreed, and we don't particulary go for lederhosen, latex, googirls and Oompah bands like ze Germans do.

We'd just find our own very British 'cottage industry' way of doing it.

[puntingpumping1920]

Surely it will reduce it, and expose it more? And make that easier to police than currently is the case?

 
Yup, it creates transparency
 

[winkywanky]

And a lot of the girls who want to get into that type of work (and don't have the wherewithal to work from home, because they're not from these shores) would gravitate to the brothels because they know they'd be looked after properly. They would even know that before they considered leaving home to come to the UK. They could even have a job lined up before they left.

It would marginalise the illegal side of things.

Anyway, onto the next topic...what do we all reckon on Brexit then?   

[tantric talents]

Anyway, onto the next topic...what do we all reckon on Brexit then?   

Well if we were to apply Boris’ “Australian points based system” to potential brothel girls......
Will it not require all testers to go down under?   

[winkywanky]

Quite happy to go down under, especially if there's a 'golden nectar' shower on offer   

[Doc Holliday]

Gents, this is the usual discussion around the law that you would expect on a punting forum when considering prostitution and criminality. Whilst it is always interesting, it is somewhat academic.
The reality and bigger picture is that the 'oldest profession' has always been a key component of something which has also been around a long time ... organised crime.

The Laws of a particular country, and those who enforce those laws, whilst sometimes winning battles have never won the war. They likely never will?

Organised crime survives and prospers because it is just that .... organised. Its pyramid structure makes it difficult to take out the top tiers and if you do then another pyramid just takes over.

It forever evolves and since the breakup of the USSR the west has now has to deal with the Romanian 'pyramids' .. a particularly nasty sector which thrives on the poverty of its native country. The massive growth of internet prostitution has helped them greatly.

We are end users of a market which crime will always be part of and which, depressingly, history tells us that is unlikely to change.

[tantric talents]

Quite happy to go down under, especially if there's a 'golden nectar' shower on offer   

Well that could foster some resentment amongst girls with a more limited likes list 

[winkywanky]

Gents, this is the usual discussion around the law that you would expect on a punting forum when considering prostitution and criminality. Whilst it is always interesting, it is somewhat academic.
The reality and bigger picture is that the 'oldest profession' has always been a key component of something which has also been around a long time ... organised crime.

The Laws of a particular country, and those who enforce those laws, whilst sometimes winning battles have never won the war. They likely never will?

Organised crime survives and prospers because it is just that .... organised. Its pyramid structure makes it difficult to take out the top tiers and if you do then another pyramid just takes over.

It forever evolves and since the breakup of the USSR the west has now has to deal with the Romanian 'pyramids' .. a particularly nasty sector which thrives on the poverty of its native country. The massive growth of internet prostitution has helped them greatly.

We are end users of a market which crime will always be part of and which, depressingly, history tells us that is unlikely to change.

Doc, that is all, sadly, very true.

However, even poor young girls in Romania (and elsewhere) have access to the internet. If we suddenly had an attack of coming over all 'liberal' and legalised brothels, there would actually be a way of allowing this type of girl to travel on her own, with the real prospect of work at the other end.

[winkywanky]

Well that could foster some resentment amongst girls with a more limited likes list 

B'dum Tsch! 

Actually, I couldn't give a Castlemaine XXXX   

[winkywanky]

It's a funny thing, I'm actually quite a prude when it comes to drug abuse, and I tend not to think legalising them would be a good idea. There'll always be plenty of idiots willing to kill themselves in this way by completely overdoing it, and then it might be argued that the state facilitated it.

But with selling sex, you can't really die of having too much of it. You might be deemed to have become addicted to it, and lost your house as a result, but you didn't actually die from it. In that respect it's no worse than gambling.

Women want to sell sex, men want to buy it. So long as everyone's a grown-up about it, no-one gets hurt, especially if the state allows a way of doing it safely?

[tantric talents]

But with (selling) sex, you can't really die of having too much of it.

Well that may mot be quite true as the Taoist sages recommend a limited amount of ejaculation especially in later years.
It may be no coincidence that the French colloquially refer to male orgasm as La petite mort.....

[winkywanky]

You're taking this waaaay too seriously!

I suppose if you live a life of complete celibacy you'll live to 150. But you'll be dying of boredom for the last 100yrs of that.

[Bond]

Maybe I'm living in a cocoon because for the last few years I've only seen girls who are positively reviewed on here, and because I punt very sporadically, but I honestly don't think that trafficking is that prevalent in prostitution in this country. And I almost exclusively only see EE girls (Polish mainly).

[Doc Holliday]

However, even poor young girls in Romania (and elsewhere) have access to the internet. If we suddenly had an attack of coming over all 'liberal' and legalised brothels, there would actually be a way of allowing this type of girl to travel on her own, with the real prospect of work at the other end.

But theoretically they could already do that if they wished and indeed some do? Prostitution is legal here and that includes working in a brothel. Its just those running the brothel that are acting illegally.
Language is a problem though as I think less than 40% speak any English at all?

As others have said in Germany where brothels are legal it hasn't stopped human sex trafficking. In fact I seem to recall reading that as the brothels have become more and more regulated it has actually made more of it go underground.

My point was that selling sex has always been a valuable commodity for organised crime and no matter how much the authorities in various countries tinker with it on the ground, that is unlikely to change.

The added current problem is the existence of a large pool of attractive young women from poor EE countries which can be tapped into by criminals with a particularly cruel mentality.

[winkywanky]

But theoretically they could already do that if they wished and indeed some do? Prostitution is legal here and that includes working in a brothel. Its just those running the brothel that are acting illegally.
Language is a problem though as I think less than 40% speak any English at all?

As others have said in Germany where brothels are legal it hasn't stopped human sex trafficking. In fact I seem to recall reading that as the brothels have become more and more regulated it has actually made more of it go underground.

My point was that selling sex has always been a valuable commodity for organised crime and no matter how much the authorities in various countries tinker with it on the ground, that is unlikely to change.

The added current problem is the existence of a large pool of attractive young women from poor EE countries which can be tapped into by criminals with a particularly cruel mentality.

Yes, organised crime will always be (at the least) in the background of prostitution. I can't help thinking the more that 'the game' is brought out into the open though, the less influence organised crime will have.

As for young EE girls of 18-22 coming here to work in the sex industry, I suppose the very savvy ones could make a go of it on their own - but I think many of them would fall by the wayside even if they attempted it - coming into the orbit of pimps or perhaps an organised network would be a big possibility. If they actually had a known job to go to, with accommodation etc planned out for them, they'd be much less likely to fall into the wrong hands.

[proxima22]

Trafficking for sex is covered by the following laws:

Modern Slavery Act 2015
External Link/Members Only

Sexual Offences Act 2003
External Link/Members Only

I've read through the relevant sections and it looks to me like the legal definition of human trafficking for sex hinges on the use of force or the commiting of sexual exploitation crimes under the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

Some key points to consider are that for a crime to have taken place, someone (eg a pimp) has to have forced, caused or incited a person into prostitution or controlled the activities of that person to facilitate personal gain.

So while it is true that consent to travel is irrelevant to the definition of human trafficking, there has to be someone else controlling, directing or inciting the person for it to be a crime under the Sexual Offences Act and therefore to count as trafficking for sexual exploitation.

So, an SP has not been trafficked if they came to the UK legally through free movement within the EU or by getting a work, study or tourist visa.

They have not been trafficked if they arrange their own illegal entry to the UK and then freely chose to engage in prostitution. Another person can be involved as long as they do not incite, control or force the person.

They have not been trafficked if they freely arrange to travel around the UK to provide sexual services, again as long as they are not being coerced.

I would look at the situation in the same way as any other employment. People may enter the UK from another country to do a job, they may travel around the UK as part of that job and the employer may manage some aspects of that work BUT they have freely chosen to do that work and are free to stop and resign at any point.

I've seen a lot of SPs from other countries who sometimes work in other cities on some kind of rotation. They often leave to visit their home countries for a few weeks and then return. They are women apparently fully in charge of their own decisions, they chose what they will or won't do and who they will or won't see. They are confident, relaxed and in control. It is regularly apparent how much they enjoy the work they do, I am often welcomed with genuine smiles and affection and SPs take an active role in sex, often leading and getting genuine sexual enjoyment from what is happening. I am firmly convinced that this kind of mutual enjoyment is impossible to fake. No amount of pretence can mask someone who is not enjoying what they're doing or has been forced to do it.

I would advise, rather than obsessing over whether someone went to another town to work for a few weeks or spends their whole time touring the country, pay attention to whether the person is happy to be with you and enjoys themself. If they are reluctant, look miserable, seem detached from what is going on or are clearly faking enjoyment then you have reason to be concerned.