Trafficking

[Pennine Rover]

Should we report suspected trafficking to the police?  Is that a moral dilemma for punters?   How do you define it?
I saw recently in my area that a Romanian lady had been charged with modern slavery offences after a long investigation and will appear in a higher court in a few weeks. Surprisingly  she was given unconditional bail so she may have gone AWOL.  It probably accounts for the lack of Roms in the area in recent months.

We do have two Thai "houses" in the area where there is a rotation of usually two girls for a week. The girls seem to move round the country. As they have limited English you wonder how they travel. Presumably there is a pimp somewhere.  Are the girls going it willingly and are they in the UK legally?  Presumable the owner of the house who what is going on ans they are equipped with massage tables, lots of towels etc.
Should we report them?

[PilotMan]

If you're absolutely certain they're trafficked.

Rule 26:

Allegations of underaged /trafficked/forced sex workers
Contact law enforcement.

[daviemac]

Not sure why you need to ask this, if people involved in the paid sex scene don't give the police the heads up where they suspect trafficking how will the find out and put a stop to it.   

[Thecunninglinguist]

If you are worried about anonymity report by Crimestoppers.
 External Link/Members Only
Check the website on means of reporting without being further involved.

[scutty brown]

It's simple
The people who  have most contact with the girls and see the conditions they are working under are, collectively, us the punters.
We are the most likely to see when things are wrong. We are also the people who know where these girls are.
If we don't inform the police when we find something wrong, then no-one else will.

The police can't operate without information. We are the only people who have that information.

[scutty brown]

I presume the Romanian woman was Ana Stefan?
External Link/Members Only

I would have thought it highly likely that was only discovered by info from a punter

[jesse4585]

It's not only the morally right thing to do, it can be the safest thing to do for the punter, IMO.

Im not likely to ever see trafficked girls with the sort of punting I do, but if I did I'd be straight on the phone to the local police. I'd give my real name as it's risky not to, but I'd see that as a good thing. Would likely go in my favour if for example I later got identified as having seen trafficked girls in some other way.

Or as Thecunninglinguist says you can chose to report anonymously via crimestoppers, though IMO that way may be too slow.  I mean in the case where you find a clearly trafficked lass who is obviously in distress. I'd guess often there is a question as to whether the lass is trafficked or just working for a crew of her own choice. In such cases the crimestopper method may be best.

[Barclay Spank]

People can mean two different things when they use the word "trafficked". This is what the journalist Nick Davies wrote a while ago in the Guardian.

And, from the outset, that word was a problem. On a strict definition, eventually expressed in international law by the 2000 Palermo protocol, sex trafficking involves the use of force, fraud or coercion to transport an unwilling victim into sexual exploitation. This image of sex slavery soon provoked real public anxiety.

But a much looser definition, subsequently adopted by the UK's 2003 Sexual Offences Act, uses the word to describe the movement of all sex workers, including willing professionals who are simply travelling in search of a better income. This wider meaning has injected public debate with confusion and disproportionate anxiety.

External Link/Members Only

If a woman has been coerced or deceived into prostitution then we should report it to the police. If however she has chosen to come here because she can earn many times more than the garment factory she's been working in and she wants to save money to invest in her future then I wouldn't report it to the police. It's still illegal, but I would think of the welfare of the women.

[Doc Holliday]

If however she has chosen to come here because she can earn many times more than the garment factory she's been working in and she wants to save money to invest in her future then I wouldn't report it to the police. It's still illegal, but I would think of the welfare of the women.

Could you clarify the highlighted bit? 

[scutty brown]

People can mean two different things when they use the word "trafficked". This is what the journalist Nick Davies wrote a while ago in the Guardian.

And, from the outset, that word was a problem. On a strict definition, eventually expressed in international law by the 2000 Palermo protocol, sex trafficking involves the use of force, fraud or coercion to transport an unwilling victim into sexual exploitation. This image of sex slavery soon provoked real public anxiety.

But a much looser definition, subsequently adopted by the UK's 2003 Sexual Offences Act, uses the word to describe the movement of all sex workers, including willing professionals who are simply travelling in search of a better income. This wider meaning has injected public debate with confusion and disproportionate anxiety.

External Link/Members Only

If a woman has been coerced or deceived into prostitution then we should report it to the police. If however she has chosen to come here because she can earn many times more than the garment factory she's been working in and she wants to save money to invest in her future then I wouldn't report it to the police. It's still illegal, but I would think of the welfare of the women.

That's all wishywashy bollox and part of a deliberate attempt by certain groups to obfuscate reality.
The issue is simple, forget thinking about trafficking and instead think in terms of modern slavery.
Is the girl  forced, under duress, coerced, intimidated or otherwise at risk - either actually or potentially?
If yes, then call

[Barclay Spank]

Could you clarify the highlighted bit? 

Running a brothel is illegal. Recruiting women to work in the UK as prostitutes is illegal, even if they are willing. Overstaying a tourist or student visa might not be illegal but will result in deportation. Working as a prostitute while on a tourist or student visa would result in deportation. Investing profits back into the business can be money laundering.

[Barclay Spank]

... part of a deliberate attempt by certain groups to obfuscate reality.

You've got that bit right. When George W Bush came to power he put Christian Evangelicals in charge of the State Department. It serves their purposes to confuse voluntary and involuntary forms of prostitution and to say that all organised movement of women for the purposes of prostitution is trafficking. Some feminist groups went along with this as did the Blair government. Academics didn't, which is why they are hated by people like Julie Bindel.

Hidden Image/Members Only

[daviemac]

You've got that bit right. When George W Bush came to power he put Christian Evangelicals in charge of the State Department. It serves their purposes to confuse voluntary and involuntary forms of prostitution and to say that all organised movement of women for the purposes of prostitution is trafficking. Some feminist groups went along with this as did the Blair government. Academics didn't, which is why they are hated by people like Julie Bindel.

Hidden Image/Members Only

Firstly what has American politics got to do with this thread, apart from that why are you trying to complicate matters by posting misleading information.

The question in this thread is a very simple and straight forward one and only concerns the UK.

"Should we report instances where we suspect a girl may be trafficked or coerced", without doubt yes, the 'legal' definition of trafficked is irrelevant, if in doubt report.

If a report is made and the police visit and find a willing SP, happy in her work then no harm done, if they visit and find a trafficked escort then action can be taken.

I don't know about other areas but the NE have dedicated liaison officers who deal; with the sex industry and make welfare visits to know WG's premises.

[scutty brown]

Seems a good time to retread this

Trafficking / Slavery How-to-tell??

Significant Signs
There are a number of signs that are common across all types of exploitation.
Including, if a person:
*acts as if instructed by another, as though they are forced or coerced to carry out specific activities
*demonstrates signs of physical or psychological abuse, such as lacking self esteem, seeming anxious, bruising or untreated medical conditions
*seems to be bonded by debt or has money deducted from their salary
*has little or no contact with family or loved ones
*is distrustful of authorities
*has threats made against themselves or family members
*is not in possession of their own legal documents

Significant signs for individuals potentially selling sex:
*Is the person closely guarded?
*Does the person have any signs of physical abuse, such as cigarette burns or tattoos indicating ownership?
*Is the person allowed to keep the money they make? A trafficked sex worker will have restricted or no access to earnings
*Is there any evidence that the person has been forced, intimidated or coerced into providing sexual services?
*Does the person have an English vocabulary of only sexualised words?
*Are there any signs the person is experiencing emotional trauma as a result of the work they are doing?

Some of the above may be unclear or contradictory, below are explanatory notes dating from 2019

Travel
With EE or South American girls what you are looking for are girls with no obvious means of transport, who are moving location frequently. Usually a courier comes to pick them up with no prior notice and takes them to the next location. The girls usually won't know where they've been or when or where they're going. "Frequently" can mean anything between a couple of days to a couple of weeks. But don't assume static girls are OK, some teams will stay until the utility bills arrive and then jump ship every three or four months.
Chinese girls are less obvious, they're often sent out by train from London on 1-2 week shifts, sometimes unsupervised during the journey. They're held in check by the lack of language, threats to themselves and family, and debt bondage. And often they don't realise they're being exploited. Age comes into it as well -the ones at risk are mainly in the 18-28 age range.

Sleeping
This ones hard to pick up on.............sometimes there is a separate house acting as the pimps residence which the girls use for sleeping, sometimes complete with a training / breaking in room where the girls are intimidated, brainwashed raped and indoctrinated into the trade. You're most likely to find this where EE girls work from long-established houses, where the house remains in use but the girls change. Also where EE girls are hired out to parlours for the day: they get dropped off in the morning, collected next morning and the pimp pockets the price for renting her out.
However a lot of EE girls are handled differently: those in short-term lets or in hotels or serviced apartments will eat sleep and fuck in the same room.

Limited clothing
Most obvious in hotels or short term lets where the girl is living from a suitcase and may well have only the knickers she greets you in..........often what little clothing she has is totally impractical and is commonly thin £2 leggings and such like from the market. You can see what's strewn on the floor or in open suitcases
Sometimes clothes are removed from a girls reach to prevent her escaping.......I've seen this with chinese girls where the only clothes in the flat were lace bodysuits

Money collection
Sometimes there's a second person who grabs the money off you before the working girl has a chance to touch it.......indicates she's not trusted.

There are other signs as well
*does the girl look healthy, well fed?
*what's the decor of the building? Is it a shithole, does the bath and toilet work?
*is there any furniture in the house?
*how clean is the bedding?
*are there any toiletries in the bathroom? how many razors? how many men's razors?
*what's the state of the kitchen, is there any food in the house or is she living on pot noodles or beans supplied by the pimp?
*does she know what town she's in, or what the last town was, or the next one?
*what's her hygiene like?
*how does she appear mentally? depressed? sad? brainwashed?
*does she seem scared?

The online profiles give clues
*stolen photos
*repeated use of same location across profiles
*new/changing profiles
*multiple profiles for the same address
*explicit photos
*language style
*profile - does it fit a known pattern?
*is the girl out of place - could she realistically get here and set up in business unassisted

*Pose seems unusual or extreme; appears overly explicit.
*background is familiar
*Background looks like non-private residence (hotel, etc.)
*Facial expression of subject shows general or potential unease
*Use of stock photo(s)
*Low quality/resolution image(s)
*Age: subject appears to be between 18-24 years old
*Use of ‘s/he’ / ‘they’ / ‘we’ instead of ‘I’
*Same/similar text as other ads for different subjects
*Same contact number in different ads
*Poor grammar and misspellings in the text
*Current availability in multiple locations across the region
*References to being new: ‘new in town’ / ‘just arrived’ / ‘new 4 you’
*References to youth: ‘young and cute’ / ‘sweet’ / ‘fresh’ / ‘candy’
*Use of emojis, e.g. peach/cherries
*Little or no further information in Q&A section
*Specific services: bareback/anal/OWO
*Additional services at no extra price or very low price
*Services offered at an ‘All Inclusive’ price
*Low price for the local marketplace


None of these things on their own can conclusively prove anything, but as a mental checklist they help to give a feeling as to whether a girl is at risk.
But remember - if you have the slightest suspicion, make the call

[scutty brown]

You've got that bit right. When George W Bush came to power he put Christian Evangelicals in charge of the State Department. It serves their purposes to confuse voluntary and involuntary forms of prostitution and to say that all organised movement of women for the purposes of prostitution is trafficking. Some feminist groups went along with this as did the Blair government. Academics didn't, which is why they are hated by people like Julie Bindel.

Hidden Image/Members Only

No that isn't what I meant at all: don't try putting words in my mouth.
It's fuck all to do with Bush, and all to do with UK pro-decriminalisation advocates who deny trafficking is an issue.

[tynetunnel]

A timely reminder Scutty, thanks for this. It’s something we should all keep our eyes peeled for and our absolute duty to report anything we aren’t comfortable with. We are the eyes and ears of punting

[Barclay Spank]

Firstly what has American politics got to do with this thread, apart from that why are you trying to complicate matters by posting misleading information.

The question in this thread is a very simple and straight forward one and only concerns the UK.

We are talking about TRAFFICKING here which by its very nature is international. To understand what trafficking is and how to solve it you need to learn about things such as the Palermo Protocol. I recommend reading The Truth About Modern Slavery by Emily Kenway. Then you will see that it is not as simple and straightforward as you think it is.

scutty brown wrote "That's all wishywashy bollox and part of a deliberate attempt by certain groups to obfuscate reality." My reply - which you consider to be 'misleading information' - is that there are certain groups who attempt to obfuscate reality. They are not however the groups that scutty brown thinks they are. They are Evangelical Christians in the US and UK and Radical Feminists in the US and UK.

[scutty brown]

We are talking about TRAFFICKING here which by its very nature is international. To understand what trafficking is and how to solve it you need to learn about things such as the Palermo Protocol. I recommend reading The Truth About Modern Slavery by Emily Kenway. Then you will see that it is not as simple and straightforward as you think it is.

scutty brown wrote "That's all wishywashy bollox and part of a deliberate attempt by certain groups to obfuscate reality." My reply - which you consider to be 'misleading information' - is that there are certain groups who attempt to obfuscate reality. They are not however the groups that scutty brown thinks they are. They are Evangelical Christians in the US and UK and Radical Feminists in the US and UK.

FFS why do you insist on promulgating confusion?
Trafficking is just one symptom, just one of  many practices, that are part of modern slavery.
Slavery is the issue: understand that and all this  crap about defining trafficking becomes irrelevant

And no, you don't know who "I think they are" - again stop putting words in my mouth.
Actually part of the problem is idiots like you who dilute the message by pretending there's a false split between good trafficking and bad trafficking. It's simple: all trafficking causes exploitation,  exploitation breeds slavery. The girl may not even realise she's trapped, that's why it's so easy
There is no "good" trafficking, even if the girl is complicit

But as I said, the issue is SLAVERY

[daviemac]

We are talking about TRAFFICKING here which by its very nature is international. To understand what trafficking is and how to solve it you need to learn about things such as the Palermo Protocol. I recommend reading The Truth About Modern Slavery by Emily Kenway. Then you will see that it is not as simple and straightforward as you think it is.

scutty brown wrote "That's all wishywashy bollox and part of a deliberate attempt by certain groups to obfuscate reality." My reply - which you consider to be 'misleading information' - is that there are certain groups who attempt to obfuscate reality. They are not however the groups that scutty brown thinks they are. They are Evangelical Christians in the US and UK and Radical Feminists in the US and UK.

Yet another one who thinks he knows it all. It isn't JUST international, women are exploited and trafficked withing this country 

By the strict UK legal definition assisting a person to move from one place to another for the purpose of prostitution is trafficking, however why are you bringing religion and the USA into it.

If you really want to complicate matters then there is the matter of public interest regarding prosecutions to consider and that is one of the first things the CPS take into account.

I've linked to this several times but here it is again, the official CPS stance on prostitution in this country.   External Link/Members Only

The gist of this thread is simple, stop complicating matters, forget all about what is or isn't trafficking or coercion, if we suspect it report it and let the authorities decide the technicalities.

[Barclay Spank]

No that isn't what I meant at all: don't try putting words in my mouth.
It's fuck all to do with Bush, and all to do with UK pro-decriminalisation advocates who deny trafficking is an issue.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was saying that you are correct when you say that certain groups try to obfuscate reality, but you are wrong about who these groups are.

Those who believe in decriminalisation understand that there are many women from abroad who work here as prostitutes. They don't accept though that most of them are coerced or deceived. Most of them do it because they can get significantly more money than from anything else in their own countries, including prostitution. Often they save money to invest in their future. There are some women who are coerced or deceived but the legal system is not much help to them, just as it's not much help to people coerced into other forms of work.

[daviemac]

FFS why do you insist on promulgating confusion?

Maybe he's involved and wants to confuse matters, we have had dodgy pimps go under the radar on here in the past.   

[Barclay Spank]

FFS why do you insist on promulgating confusion?
Trafficking is just one symptom, just one of  many practices, that are part of modern slavery.
Slavery is the issue: understand that and all this  crap about defining trafficking becomes irrelevant

And no, you don't know who "I think they are" - again stop putting words in my mouth.
Actually part of the problem is idiots like you who dilute the message by pretending there's a false split between good trafficking and bad trafficking. It's simple: all trafficking causes exploitation,  exploitation breeds slavery. The girl may not even realise she's trapped, that's why it's so easy
There is no "good" trafficking, even if the girl is complicit

Now you are putting words into my mouth. I'm not 'pretending there's a false split between good trafficking and bad trafficking'. I'm saying that if there is no coercion or deception then it is not trafficking. This is the original definition of the word 'trafficking', still used in most parts of the world and by academics. In the US and UK though there are people whose agenda is to eliminate all prostitution and who want us all to believe that women who come here through choice are trafficked. They have changed the meaning of the word in an attempt to obfuscate.

[Barclay Spank]

Maybe he's involved and wants to confuse matters, we have had dodgy pimps go under the radar on here in the past.   

You are accusing me of being a 'dodgy pimp'. Do you think all of the people who share my opinions are dodgy pimps? There are an awful lot of us you know. Perhaps you think that the government of New Zealand are dodgy pimps? Perhaps you think that academics such as Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon and Professor Nic Mai are dodgy pimps?

[jesse4585]

I recommend reading The Truth About Modern Slavery by Emily Kenway.

I met Emily more than a decade back - she was doing work to improve working conditions for those in Amazon warehouses, back before that was fashionable.  Really good lass and I'd trust her to tease out the complexities of trafficking, which do include what you say.  (But also some Christistians & Feminists are very pro sex work, and like others are saying, while some may overstate trafficking for their agendas, pimps etc might do the opposite.)

But all that complexity is only important for those working in the area via politics or activism.

A punter just needs to know how to recognise the signs a lass is trafficked and how to report.  For once I agree with Scutty that the other input is just over complicating.

[scutty brown]

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was saying that you are correct when you say that certain groups try to obfuscate reality, but you are wrong about who these groups are.

Those who believe in decriminalisation understand that there are many women from abroad who work here as prostitutes. They don't accept though that most of them are coerced or deceived.

Who are you speaking for - them or yourself? Do YOU accept "that most of them are coerced or deceived"? If you don't then you are part of the problem.

Most of them do it because they can get significantly more money than from anything else in their own countries, including prostitution. Often they save money to invest in their future. There are some women who are coerced or deceived but the legal system is not much help to them, just as it's not much help to people coerced into other forms of work.

Quite a generalisation.
Women come for many reasons. Some obviously come initially willingly, but most rapidly  find themselves coerced and deceived. Few achieve earnings  anywhere near the promises. Most end up in dingy decaying popups working 24/7 for a pimp with a baseball bat

[daviemac]

You are accusing me of being a 'dodgy pimp'. Do you think all of the people who share my opinions are dodgy pimps? There are an awful lot of us you know. Perhaps you think that the government of New Zealand are dodgy pimps? Perhaps you think that academics such as Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon and Professor Nic Mai are dodgy pimps?

Did you miss the word MAYBE so not an accusation, you are the one who is complicating this very simple issue and yet again bringing other countries into it, is that to create further distraction.   

One question for you, do you think we should report cases where we suspect trafficking or coercion to the authorities.   

[Barclay Spank]

If a report is made and the police visit and find a willing SP, happy in her work then no harm done, if they visit and find a trafficked escort then action can be taken.

No harm done? The police will deport her. Doesn't matter if she's 'happy in her work'. She will have had her life ruined. She may try to get back into the country to resume her attempt to invest in her future back home.

Remember we're talking about trafficking here. We're not talking about your local brothel or escort agency.

[daviemac]

No harm done? The police will deport her. Doesn't matter if she's 'happy in her work'. She will have had her life ruined. She may try to get back into the country to resume her attempt to invest in her future back home.

Remember we're talking about trafficking here. We're not talking about your local brothel or escort agency.

The more you post the more it looks like you are involved, I said before women are trafficked and coerced within the UK and I mean British women.

They repatriate those who are here illegally and rightly so.

If she's happy in her work no one will suspect she's trafficked.   

Read this - External Link/Members Only - and educate yourself.

Seventeen men and one woman were convicted of nearly 100 offences, including rape, human trafficking, and conspiracy to incite prostitution and drug supply, between 2011 and 2014.

All British girls from within the UK.

[Barclay Spank]

Did you miss the word MAYBE so not an accusation, you are the one who is complicating this very simple issue and yet again bringing other countries into it, is that to create further distraction.   

One question for you, do you think we should report cases where we suspect trafficking or coercion to the authorities.   

What I believe is that there should be welfare officers who punters can report any concerns to. They should have the welfare of the sex workers as the most important thing. The police and the politicians who make the law don't have the welfare of sex workers as the most important thing. They just want to get rid of all prostitution and they don't care who they harm. They don't care if the women are willing or not willing. The welfare officer can pass information on to the police if they feel that it is really in the interests of the women themselves.

[daviemac]

What I believe is that there should be welfare officers who punters can report any concerns to. They should have the welfare of the sex workers as the most important thing. The police and the politicians who make the law don't have the welfare of sex workers as the most important thing. They just want to get rid of all prostitution and they don't care who they harm. They don't care if the women are willing or not willing. The welfare officer can pass information on to the police if they feel that it is really in the interests of the women themselves.

You are making a bigger mug of yourself with every post, stop digging mate.

External Link/Members Only

Quote -

You asked:
Does your Constabulary have a nominated officer or officers who acts as a single point of contact in relation to all crimes against sex workers (often called Sex Work Liaison Officers)?

I am able to disclose the located information to you as follows.

Yes
Different name – Dedicated Liaison Officers (DLO’S)
34
Police Officers – Constable

[scutty brown]

..........................I'm saying that if there is no coercion or deception then it is not trafficking.

Even if the action is illegal?
Even if the action is dangerous e.g. risk of drowning?
Even if the girl agrees to debt bondage to pay her way?

This is the original definition of the word 'trafficking', still used in most parts of the world and by academics. In the US and UK though there are people whose agenda is to eliminate all prostitution and who want us all to believe that women who come here through choice are trafficked. They have changed the meaning of the word in an attempt to obfuscate.

Actually one of the earliest uses was  probably the Mann Act, and the primary offence was simply driving a girl across state borders

[scutty brown]

No harm done? The police will deport her. Doesn't matter if she's 'happy in her work'. She will have had her life ruined. She may try to get back into the country to resume her attempt to invest in her future back home.

Remember we're talking about trafficking here. We're not talking about your local brothel or escort agency.

Just shows what little you know.
Welfare checks on girls are routine. If the girls are safe they're left alone

[daviemac]

What I believe is that there should be welfare officers who punters can report any concerns to. They should have the welfare of the sex workers as the most important thing. The police and the politicians who make the law don't have the welfare of sex workers as the most important thing. They just want to get rid of all prostitution and they don't care who they harm. They don't care if the women are willing or not willing. The welfare officer can pass information on to the police if they feel that it is really in the interests of the women themselves.

You are still avoiding the question and that convinces me even more that you are involved.

Do you think punters should report suspected trafficking or coercion to the authorities that are available at this time, be that to the police via 101, the police via online reporting or crimestoppers.   

[scutty brown]

I doubt if he's involved.
He's simply brainwashed himself by reading too much left-wing libertarian unthought pro-decriminalisation crap from rent-a-pen academics who sucker up to the cliterati of feminazis who have too much embedded in the belief of prostitution as a form of female emancipation to allow trafficking to be seen as a problem.

[daviemac]

I doubt if he's involved.
He's simply brainwashed himself by reading too much left-wing libertarian unthought pro-decriminalisation crap from rent-a-pen academics who sucker up to the cliterati of feminazis who have too much embedded in the belief of prostitution as a form of female emancipation to allow trafficking to be seen as a problem.

Maybe not, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . . .  and he won't commit to answering the very simple question posed in this thread and that is should we report cases of suspected trafficking, as far as I'm concerned it's a resounding yes.

[scutty brown]

Maybe not, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . . .  and he won't commit to answering the very simple question posed in this thread and that is should we report cases of suspected trafficking, as far as I'm concerned it's a resounding yes.

Absolutely yes

[scutty brown]

Maybe not, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . . .  and he won't commit to answering the very simple question posed in this thread and that is should we report cases of suspected trafficking, as far as I'm concerned it's a resounding yes.

He clearly didn't report in this thread even though he eventually realised something was wrong - but nor did anyone else
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=359295.msg3730944#msg3730944

[daviemac]

He clearly didn't report in this thread even though he eventually realised something was wrong - but nor did anyone else
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=359295.msg3730944#msg3730944

Says it all really.

[Kev40ish]

Says it all really.

It’s been read 11,000 times, so obviously there are few people who really care 

[daviemac]

It’s been read 11,000 times, so obviously there are few people who really care 

Quite agree Kev, despite requests to report it.

[tynetunnel]

He clearly didn't report in this thread even though he eventually realised something was wrong - but nor did anyone else
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=359295.msg3730944#msg3730944

To describe her as “unhappy” and say that he thinks Scutty may actually be correct, then do nothing is frankly vile 

[pbrown355]

I doubt that barclayspank is involved but there's something very dodgy about his posts on the link to the Chinese brothel

[lillythesavage]

To describe her as “unhappy” and say that he thinks Scutty may actually be correct, then do nothing is frankly vile 

Agree, I wonder how many on here would or have  .

As Davie has pointed out, there are dedicated officers, and you have nothing to fear doing so.

I think there is a lot of " not my problem" thinking. Barclayspank has made that obvious. 

[Barclay Spank]

To describe her as “unhappy” and say that he thinks Scutty may actually be correct, then do nothing is frankly vile 

Excuse me, why do you think you know what I have or haven't done? What I HAVE done is to consider a moral dilemma carefully before taking action that could harm women's lives, which is more than you. I'm not about to discuss with you my actions, I don't care what you think about them, I don't need your approval.

The last few threads on this post have all been an attempt to disparage me personally instead of discussing the issues. It's quite clear that me trying to show you the complexities of the issue has made a few people angry. I have been called an idiot and it has been suggested that I am a pimp.

What they don't realise is that no sane pimp would want decriminalisation. In New Zealand most of the pimps have gone out of business. Women can work independently or in groups and have no need of pimps now. So I'm the last person who would actually be a pimp just as I'm the last person who would actually be an idiot. I'm the one who understands what is going on in the world.

You see things in black and white, good versus evil, heroes versus villains. You refuse to engage with the complexities of the issue. It IS more complex than you want to believe. I talk about women getting deported and the reply is if they're not meant to be here then they SHOULD  be deported. So getting Brazilian or Chinese women deported is a result for you, well worth going to the police.

To answer your question, if I had good reason to believe that coercion or deception was taking place then I would go to the police. But I am well aware that the police want to prosecute men for trafficking and deport women when no coercion or deception has occurred. They don't care if the women are willingly here to get money to invest in their future.

I'm not about to rush in like a caped crusader and harm the lives of women, and neither should you. You should consider people who have had a much less privileged life than you have.

[Barclay Spank]

I doubt if he's involved.
He's simply brainwashed himself by reading too much left-wing libertarian unthought pro-decriminalisation crap from rent-a-pen academics who sucker up to the cliterati of feminazis who have too much embedded in the belief of prostitution as a form of female emancipation to allow trafficking to be seen as a problem.

You're so funny. 'Feminazi' is a term applied to Radical Feminists such as Julie Bindel. Your opinions have a lot in common with them. If any of them are reading this thread they will be cheering you on.

The English Collective of Prostitutes believes in decriminalisation. They speak for the sex workers of this country. All the contributors to this forum should support decrim.

[scutty brown]

You're so funny. 'Feminazi' is a term applied to Radical Feminists such as Julie Bindel. Your opinions have a lot in common with them. If any of them are reading this thread they will be cheering you on.

The English Collective of Prostitutes believes in decriminalisation. They speak for the sex workers of this country. All the contributors to this forum should support decrim.

The only people the ECP speak for are their own little vocal shop of elitist liberated ladies: the literate, educated, drug free independents. Maybe 5% of the total? Decriminalisation would be great for them and their Thatcherite dreams of business building. But they don't give a   shit about the silent majority: the imported, trafficked foreigners; the smack-head street girls; the unstable mentally ill. Decriminalisation makes it easier to exploit the silent vulnerable majority.
The German and Dutch experience show what decriminalisation brings: almost complete control of the sex market by organised crime groups who are now almost impossible to combat legally. The ECP are pushing for a model in which their criminal pals control the whole market.

Taking a different tangent you compare the UK with New Zealand.
Your comparison is invalid: unlike Britain, New Zealand has defensible borders. No boat people, nobody hiding in  the back of trucks, no Irish back door. Nobody can get in without being seen, and if a girl does overstay a visa then given the small   population she'll be easy to locate and kick out.

[daviemac]

You're so funny. 'Feminazi' is a term applied to Radical Feminists such as Julie Bindel. Your opinions have a lot in common with them. If any of them are reading this thread they will be cheering you on.

The English Collective of Prostitutes believes in decriminalisation. They speak for the sex workers of this country. All the contributors to this forum should support decrim.

You are still avoiding answering the question posed on this thread, you are posting quite a bit that isn't relative, New Zealand for instance, but why won't you just answer yes or no.

Do you, Barclay Spank, personally think if trafficking or coercion is suspected it should be reported to the authorities, IE police or crimestoppers etc.

[scutty brown]

Excuse me, why do you think you know what I have or haven't done? What I HAVE done is to consider a moral dilemma carefully before taking action that could harm women's lives, which is more than you. I'm not about to discuss with you my actions, I don't care what you think about them, I don't need your approval.

Correct you don't need our approval to do nothing, which seems to be your preferred course of action.
Of course if you did do something constructive then you would get approval.

The last few threads on this post have all been an attempt to disparage me personally instead of discussing the issues. It's quite clear that me trying to show you the complexities of the issue has made a few people angry. I have been called an idiot and it has been suggested that I am a pimp.

Maybe because your worldview is idiotic.

What they don't realise is that no sane pimp would want decriminalisation. In New Zealand most of the pimps have gone out of business. Women can work independently or in groups and have no need of pimps now. So I'm the last person who would actually be a pimp just as I'm the last person who would actually be an idiot. I'm the one who understands what is going on in the world.

New Zealand is a special case with protectable borders and a small population and is not comparable

You see things in black and white, good versus evil, heroes versus villains. You refuse to engage with the complexities of the issue. It IS more complex than you want to believe. I talk about women getting deported and the reply is if they're not meant to be here then they SHOULD  be deported. So getting Brazilian or Chinese women deported is a result for you, well worth going to the police.

A number of fallacies here. Borderforce  deport people, police don't as they haven't the manpower.
I assume from your comments that you believe no economic migrants should be deported? Or just that Brazilian and Chinese women shouldn't be, and to hell with the rest?
Actually the truth seems to be that once most Chinese women realise they don't have to fuck another punter they're glad to be repatriated.

To answer your question, if I had good reason to believe that coercion or deception was taking place then I would go to the police. But I am well aware that the police want to prosecute men for trafficking and deport women when no coercion or deception has occurred. They don't care if the women are willingly here to get money to invest in their future.

Simply untrue, the  police  have little interest in deportations.
But FWIW coercion and/or deception is nearly always there

I'm not about to rush in like a caped crusader and harm the lives of women, and neither should you. You should consider people who have had a much less privileged life than you have.

So breaking up trafficking/slavery gangs harms the life of the women involved? WTF?

[KatieEdinburgh]

The only people the ECP speak for are their own little vocal shop of elitist liberated ladies: the literate, educated, drug free independents. Maybe 5% of the total? Decriminalisation would be great for them and their Thatcherite dreams of business building. But they don't give a   shit about the silent majority: the imported, trafficked foreigners; the smack-head street girls; the unstable mentally ill. Decriminalisation makes it easier to exploit the silent vulnerable majority.

The English Collective of Prostitutes isn’t only representing 5% of total SPs, more like 75% … !!!
You truly believe the *majority* of escorts are trafficked and unwilling, or on drugs? Really?!?
Vast majority working are independents you only have to look at reviews on here 
Honestly that sounds like something Julie Bindel / the criminalisation lobby would say…

Also the government’s determination of what trafficked is doesn’t always match up to reality, such as whether you chose to make the journey, it doesn’t matter to them it’s no visa = trafficked. But when you are found to be a victim of trafficking, no actual support is given, and you will end up in a detention centre or deported anyway, which if you were a victim is hardly how we should be treating these victims is it?

More insights into what this actually feels like through lived experience of trafficking raids
External Link/Members Only


I think it would be a very, very sad time if punters as a group didn’t agree with supporting decriminalisation on here, as that is what most (and I do mean most, the vast majority) of SPs want full decrim. And it’s misleading to claim that decrim would hurt most workers when it wouldn’t at all, it still supports those who are trafficked as trafficking would still be illegal, just working together would no longer be criminalised.

Delete if this is considered too political.

[daviemac]

The English Collective of Prostitutes believes in decriminalisation. They speak for the sex workers of this country. All the contributors to this forum should support decrim.

All members of this forum should report their concerns.

Read the truth about the whole situation, below are a couple of excerpts External Link/Members Only

"Alongside Newcastle City Council, Gateshead Council, the Crown Prosecution Service, NHS and British Red Cross, they have been targeting gangs trafficking vulnerable women to Tyneside.
On Monday four addresses were raided in Gateshead and three in Newcastle.
Police made three arrests and eight women were safeguarded and offered support by specialist officers.
Tuesday saw a second operation launched where three addresses in Newcastle were searched.
A further three people were arrested in connection with modern day slavery offences.
“Some of the women we have safeguarded today may not even realise they are victims but they will now receive the level of care and support they need.
“Modern day slavery is a horrendous crime but it is often hidden and we rely on the vigilance of people in our local communities to report any suspicious behaviour to us."

And you think that is a bad thing for the victims.