Vast majority back calls to make paying for sex illegal

[Dani]

Even if labour get in it won't happen as they know it cannot be enforced. If it did happen all bookings would just be made via phone call. Not by text or AW. That way you can visit and then leave and there is nothing on your phone or emails that mention a booking. Just a call to a friend and then popped in for a coffee
Police wouldn't even bother. They might arrest a few kerb crawlers to make up the numbers but that would be it. They have far more important crimes to deal with and not enough staff now. It's why brothers which are illegal rarely get raided as the police don't want to waste their time.

There is no way for them to prove beyond reasonable doubt that money was handed over in exchange for sex as there is no way they can prove sex has taken place and that money was handed over

[NIK]

Even if labour get in it won't happen as they know it cannot be enforced. If it did happen all bookings would just be made via phone call. Not by text or AW. That way you can visit and then leave and there is nothing on your phone or emails that mention a booking. Just a call to a friend and then popped in for a coffee
Police wouldn't even bother. They might arrest a few kerb crawlers to make up the numbers but that would be it. They have far more important crimes to deal with and not enough staff now. It's why brothers which are illegal rarely get raided as the police don't want to waste their time.

There is no way for them to prove beyond reasonable doubt that money was handed over in exchange for sex as there is no way they can prove sex has taken place and that money was handed over

Exactly. It would be a crazy law which could NEVER be properly enforced.
Now can we once and for all stop making such scaremongering posts? It will not happen. And even if it did it would have the same effect as prohibition in America. It would simply have the opposite effect to its intention and drive it further underground.
I for one would punt more than I am doing at present (which wouldn't be difficult!) 
If they can't stop people trading in illegal drugs they sure aren't going to stop people paying for sex WHICH HAS GONE ON THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY AND WILL CONTINUE TO GO ON LONG AFTER THESE USELESS, TWO BIT POLITICIANS ARE LONG FORGOTTEN. They are useless fuckers who couldn't run a piss up in a brewery and the scaremongers expect us to believe they will successfully achieve something which has never been achieved in the entire history of the human race.       They may as well announce they are going to stop all wars forever. 

I am actually so incensed and sick of hearing about these nonsensical proposed laws, which have been discussed to death on here in the past, that were I still owner of UKP I would ban any more discussion of them.     
The police simply will not welcome a law which cannot be proven and therefore cannot be enforced. Any such law will never stop people paying for sex, and if it meant the end of AWank it would not be the end of the world! I punted long before AW and I could easily punt without it.

[NIK]

Harriet Harman and Yvette Cooper - two names which I'm sure will trouble the history books in a hundred years time!   

[Hogan]

It might put off those who might lose their job with prosecution, say if you worked with kids, but I dont see it affecting those who are self employed or retired.

Wheres the evidence that the proposed laws mean youd end up on the sex offender list?????

[Daffodil]

I have no idea why you get so upset about this topic Nik. It's a genuine concern and is clearly of interest on a punting forum.

There are lots of crimes that are difficult to enforce and some have been going on since antiquity, that doesn't mean they should be made legal. Drug dealing/possession/use is an obvious one. Thieves, more often than not, seem to get away with it.

I can tell you one thing, if buying sex ever became illegal, irrespective of the chances of being caught and successfully prosecuted, I would stop punting overnight. Far too much to lose.

I don't think anybody is foolish enough to believe that prostitution could be stopped altogether, but it would certainly act as a pretty big deterrent to many.

[galcom666]

It makes no difference if she and her party do pass such a law as it is impossible for it to be upheld. Even if they know a prossie works from a set place they cannot prove that any of the men visited have paid for sex.
If they passed a law making it illegal to pay for sex it would be uninforcable. A client comes to me and I don't mention money to them (so even if outside the window the police would not hear about money) how could it be proved that sex was paid for. They couldn't. They would have to have recording devices in the prossies bedroom for them to get proof and I don't think they would get permission to do that so it would be a mute law as unless business was done outside in public no one would ever have any proof.

The problem is the law can be an ass. The UK government have also shifted away from innocent until proven guilt to guilty till proven innocent. HMRC do this all the freakin' time they go on fishing expeditions throwing out accusations and expect you to prove yourself innocent.

Second the laws can be crazy and may cover your actions OUTSIDE the UK. It might be Sweden or Norway I forget which one. But in pretty much all of Asia illicit drugs in your system is illegal. Even when the consumption of them was in a legal jurisdiction.

[galcom666]

What is an illegal amount of cash to carry in a wallet?

It's been a very long time. But I remember some SOCPA training I had. Anything over £2K was considered to be suspect and possibly criminal property. I am in no danger of this a WG which costs £2K!  a couple of blokes on a car forum when buying a car have been stopped though in London. But they had the bank receipt from where they took it out and were allowed on their way.

[Daffodil]

Even if labour get in it won't happen as they know it cannot be enforced. If it did happen all bookings would just be made via phone call. Not by text or AW. That way you can visit and then leave and there is nothing on your phone or emails that mention a booking. Just a call to a friend and then popped in for a coffee
Police wouldn't even bother. They might arrest a few kerb crawlers to make up the numbers but that would be it. They have far more important crimes to deal with and not enough staff now. It's why brothers which are illegal rarely get raided as the police don't want to waste their time.

There is no way for them to prove beyond reasonable doubt that money was handed over in exchange for sex as there is no way they can prove sex has taken place and that money was handed over

Quite a lot of nonsense here.

And regardless of whether a successful prosecution is likely (and your excuses could equally well be used by kerb crawlers, who do get successfully prosecuted) do you think married men/guys with partners are going to want to go to court to clear their name? Do you think the wife/girlfriend is going to need proof beyond all doubt?

The laws would likely be used as a deterrent and you know what? They would work.

[Curious6705]

It might put off those who might lose their job with prosecution, say if you worked with kids, but I dont see it affecting those who are self employed or retired.

Wheres the evidence that the proposed laws mean youd end up on the sex offender list?????

Does this really have to be explained? 

External Link/Members Only

[NIK]

I have no idea why you get so upset about this topic Nik. It's a genuine concern and is clearly of interest on a punting forum.There are lots of crimes that are difficult to enforce and some have been going on since antiquity, that doesn't mean they should be made legal. Drug dealing/possession/use is an obvious one. Thieves, more often than not, seem to get away with it.

I can tell you one thing, if buying sex ever became illegal, irrespective of the chances of being caught and successfully prosecuted, I would stop punting overnight. Far too much to lose.

I don't think anybody is foolish enough to believe that prostitution could be stopped altogether, but it would certainly act as a pretty big deterrent to many.

Because it's a load of fuss over something that is impractical to police. Even in the unlikely event a law was brought in, it would not stop people paying for sex. Just as it doesn't stop them taking illegal drugs.
I go and see an indie regular at her place. I pay her for services. Who else knows about this? How can it be proven? And who is harmed by this transaction? It is not a brothel. She is not trafficked. She is not on the street.
How and why should this kind of paid sex be made illegal?
Totally ludicrous! 

[Dani]

The laws would likely be used as a deterrent and you know what? They would work.

No I don't think they will.  There is a hell of a lot of men who punt that already think it is illegal.  They think working as a prossie is illegal too.  These are men who don't use forums and have kept their punting secret and really have no idea that at the moment it is perfectly legal.
I have had the discussion many times over the past few years where punters have asked don't I worry about a sting and getting arrested and I try to explain it is not illegal and they wont believe me so I tell them to go home and google it. 
If a lot already think it is illegal it is not going to make any difference to them at all as they already believe it to be.  I think you would be surprised at how many do not realise there are no laws making this job or visiting someone in this job who is independent illegal at the moment

[galcom666]

TBH maybe it will go South Korean style.

Whereby WGs work out of 'barber' salons. There appears to be all the equipment there to wash hair at least and hair dryers (there are no scissors). Men go for 'a haircut' curtain is pulled. It gives a plausible veneer of deniability. Paying for sex is completely illegal in SK though however it is ignored as if it does not exist.

[punk]

so in south korea if you see ugly blokes standing by the barber chairs, your ok to get your hair cut?

The buying and selling of pussy will always go on until the end of man, no matter what the state does.

[Hogan]

Does this really have to be explained? 

External Link/Members Only

Did you read what I posted?

SEX OFFENDER LIST like pedophiles. Where is the evidence that the new proposed laws mean you go on that list?

Silverado has already posted elsewhere that it is nonsense.

[Curious6705]

Did you read what I posted?

SEX OFFENDER LIST like pedophiles. Where is the evidence that the new proposed laws mean you go on that list?

Silverado has already posted elsewhere that it is nonsense.

If you are convicted of an offence under the Sexual Offences Act you go on the sex offenders register.

[Daffodil]

No I don't think they will.  There is a hell of a lot of men who punt that already think it is illegal.  They think working as a prossie is illegal too.  These are men who don't use forums and have kept their punting secret and really have no idea that at the moment it is perfectly legal.
I have had the discussion many times over the past few years where punters have asked don't I worry about a sting and getting arrested and I try to explain it is not illegal and they wont believe me so I tell them to go home and google it. 
If a lot already think it is illegal it is not going to make any difference to them at all as they already believe it to be.  I think you would be surprised at how many do not realise there are no laws making this job or visiting someone in this job who is independent illegal at the moment

Just because a few guys who visit you don't realise that it's legal is irrelevant. You can't draw conclusions regarding how many know it's legal or as a percentage on that basis. You often talk as if you're the voice of prostitutes, now you're acting like you're the voice of punters.

Anecdotal evidence, to "prove" your point is very weak to say the least.

If punting became illegal tonight I would not be punting tomorrow, regardless of how likely a successful prosecution was.

[Silverado]

If you are convicted of an offence under the Sexual Offences Act you go on the sex offenders register.

The only sexual offences that are subject to the notification requirements of ViSOR (the Violent and Sex Offender Register) are those that involve children or other vulnerable persons, or violence.

Soliciting, trafficking, brothel-keeping and controlling for gain are not subject to the notification requirements. Neither is the relatively new offence of paying for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force.

Have a look at section 80 and Schedule 3 of the SOA 2003.

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[Wowgeek]

It's been a very long time. But I remember some SOCPA training I had. Anything over £2K was considered to be suspect and possibly criminal property.

Your memory serves you well young Skywalker but, as I posted on another thread, it is now £1000 

[punk]

So they are going to make you a fun loving crim because you buy pussy, the oldest game in town apart from lawyers, and landlords?

[Curious6705]

The only sexual offences that are subject to the notification requirements of ViSOR (the Violent and Sex Offender Register) are those that involve children or other vulnerable persons, or violence.

Soliciting, trafficking, brothel-keeping and controlling for gain are not subject to the notification requirements. Neither is the relatively new offence of paying for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force.

Have a look at section 80 and Schedule 3 of the SOA 2003.

External Link/Members Only

IIRC those convicted in recent cases of trafficking \ coercion have been entered on the sex offenders register. (Am I wrong about that?)

If that is the case, and the law is rewritten so that paying for sex becomes an offence, is it not likely that anyone convicted of that would also be entered on the register in the same way?

This is an important issue, and I am in no way seeking to win an argument for the sake of it.

[Wowgeek]

IIRC those convicted in recent cases of trafficking \ coercion have been entered on the sex offenders register. (Am I wrong about that?)

If that is the case, and the law is rewritten so that paying for sex becomes an offence, is it not likely that anyone convicted of that would also be entered on the register in the same way?

This is an important issue, and I am in no way seeking to win an argument for the sake of it.

The only offences in Schedule 3 that relate to prostitution offences are those involving children so, if you are referring to the recent cases where children were procured and passed around then you are, indeed, correct.

I think the point Silverado makes also has merit, inasmuch as if HMG haven't seen fit to add the s.53 A offence to Schedule 3 then it is unlikely to add any similar offences, even though they don't exist yet.

However, you are right to think that if they choose to they can, so you are both expressing valid views to which there is no definitive answer at the moment.

[Malvolio]

In my view it's very unlikely that this will happen in Britain.  If it did I could see myself taking a few weekend breaks to Germany whilst waiting for the dust to die down over here.

[domino131]

I'm uncertain as to how likely this is to happen here.  But the main problem as I see it is that there are so few people who actually know what they're talking about who are willing to come forward without anonymity and contribute to the debate.  Occasionally you get WGs or ex-WGs getting involved in campaigning, but very rarely do you get punters or ex-punters coming out.  This means that when people in the media or the commons say ignorant shit about prostitution, usually because they have no experience or knowledge of what the reality is, there are very few credible people able to contradict them without 'outing' themselves.

[jcdmj12]

IIRC those convicted in recent cases of trafficking \ coercion have been entered on the sex offenders register. (Am I wrong about that?)

If that is the case, and the law is rewritten so that paying for sex becomes an offence, is it not likely that anyone convicted of that would also be entered on the register in the same way?

This is an important issue, and I am in no way seeking to win an argument for the sake of it.

Not automatically.  As wowgeek said, only offences listed on Schedule 3 qualify for the register.

External Link/Members Only

The list:
External Link/Members Only

All of the offences there are related to sexual assault, rape, abuse of trust and stuff involving minors.  I'm sure the radfems would like to see it added as a Schedule 3 offence (by claiming money = coercion which negates consent yadayadayada), but I can't see it going through.  If nothing else, it would be vulnerable to challenge under Human Rights law, as you can't realistically claim punters are automatically a danger to others.


As for enforceability?  A number of people I know buy drugs through the darkweb.  There has never been a single UK bust involving amounts for personal use, despite stuff getting seized in the post from time to time.    The police have got better things to do with their time, despite these "crimes" having a far stiffer penalty the any proposed anti-punting law.

[JV547845]

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them.

People don't realise how easy it is to evade them

[NIK]

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them. Generally they don't as too expensive but if hh gets a bee in her bonnet when labour get in next May and starts cracking the whip with senior officers, I'll be leaving that site. Btw I hate labour, but Tories have no hope of a majority, lib demos won't go into coalition with them, it an open door for labour so we all are likely to have a problem in a few months or years time

Probably a bloody good thing.  I had no problems finding punts before AW and have rarely used it since.

Personally I can't understand the obsession with what is such an unreliable resource.

[JamesKW]

If it became illegal I would carry on I like all that cloak and dagger stuff,I remember when it was difficult to get hard core porn in this country and you had to meet shady characters selling them out of bags in Brick Lane market.The only problem now is there are a lot less phone boxes,I am not sure if those contact magazines still exist,and Soho scene is a lot smaller now so you will have to do a lot more leg work to find a punt.A punt really will be a punt again.

[Captain Caveman]

If it became illegal I would carry on I like all that cloak and dagger stuff,I remember when it was difficult to get hard core porn in this country and you had to meet shady characters selling them out of bags in Brick Lane market.The only problem now is there are a lot less phone boxes,I am not sure if those contact magazines still exist,and Soho scene is a lot smaller now so you will have to do a lot more leg work to find a punt.A punt really will be a punt again.

+1 but I would probably stick to my regulars and word of mouth recommendations from people I trust.

Meeting a new girl would feel a lot riskier even than it does now due to the greater danger of falling victim to blackmailing WGs and 'punter-hunter' vigilantes.

[elrond]

Surveys in the UK have shown a majority of men and women believe prostitution should be legal, and this has increased over the last 8 years.  I can't believe the NI statistic, except that the questions were so phrased that you had to say prostitution should be illegal.

Now we might not have to wait long for it to be illegal in England and Wales. The slavery bill going through parliament now has the potential of a clause being added to criminalise the buying of sex, and decriminalize solicitation.  This is due to be voted on November 4th.  Slipped in by Fiona Mactaggart.

There is a letter and more details here. External Link/Members Only

Through the grape vine I also hear that Labour is likely to make criminalisation something they will pursue if they get into power.  Anyone voting Labour will be signing up to this stuipid law.  Far better to vote Liberal, Green, UKIP or even Conservative.  With luck next parliament will be a coalition again.  Wish it were the Liberals, but unlikely.