Hypersonics and defence economics

[mills_and_bhuna]

sorry could not resist, he has become the main joke around here and that is all his own work.

still blaming Putin for Nordstream?
The MSM have gone quiet on that one .
And I get scoffed at for being sceptical about their PR work for the Empire

[chrishornx]

as if the Nobel Peace Prize was an indication of anything.

for once you are right - Putin got nominated which totally trashes the validity of the award

[chrishornx]

Apart from the fact that Russia are not signatories to the ICC.
Neither are the United States by the way.
And the reason for the United States reticence to sign is that it would leave them open to numerous warrants.

No doubt the same reason Russia aren't signatories

[mills_and_bhuna]

No doubt the same reason Russia aren't signatories

for once I agree.
I don't recall referring to Mr Putin as a Saint.
You however seem to regard the hegemonic world power as the vanguard of human rights despite having 800 plus military bases abroad.

[chrishornx]

You however seem to regard the hegemonic world power as the vanguard of human rights despite having 800 plus military bases abroad.

no I don't - never said that

[RedKettle]

no I don't - never said that

his comment about Us bases abroad is interesting - saying it as a bad thing.  NATO countries have literally begged for US bases and I am sure Ukraine would now love some US military forces to be based on their territory.

120 of them are in Japan!!

[mills_and_bhuna]

his comment about Us bases abroad is interesting - saying it as a bad thing.  NATO countries have literally begged for US bases and I am sure Ukraine would now love some US military forces to be based on their territory.

120 of them are in Japan!!

Only 120 bases?
Better get that up to 130 just to combat Chinese aggression.
Honestly I don't even need to argue with you.
Your statements give the game away.

[mills_and_bhuna]

no I don't - never said that

I didn't say you did.
I said 'seems'.

[chrishornx]

I didn't say you did.
I said 'seems'.

another inconclusive effort from you with no evidence to back up your claim --if I didn't say something how could you reach such a conclusion?

[mills_and_bhuna]

another inconclusive effort from you with no evidence to back up your claim --if I didn't say something how could you reach such a conclusion?

by reading your raucous and unflinching support for the US proxy war.
Yes it's that simple

[chrishornx]

by reading your raucous and unflinching support for the US proxy war.
Yes it's that simple

proof?

[mills_and_bhuna]

proof?

kind of pointless arguing with you.
I have my opinion.
You have yours.
I'm assuming given your record of cheerleading the opposing voices to mine that your opinion is diametrically opposed to mine.
That is that the US and by extension NATO bear a major part of the blame for Russia being pushed into defending the Russian speaking people in the Donbass.
If you disagree with my assessment you are by implication supporting the US.

[chrishornx]

If you disagree with my assessment you are by implication supporting the US.

your bog standard wishy washy response when unable to provide proof

disagreeing with your point of view that the State may be partially to blame for what has happened in Ukraine is totally different to believing that the States is the vanguard of human rights.

[jackdaw]

If you disagree with my assessment you are by implication supporting the US.

 Ask your yourself what you would think if some one said to you “If you think Russia is right to invade Ukraine by implication you are supporting the mass deportation of children, the rape of women, the bombing of civilians, and widespread destruction of the environment.”

It wouldn’t be a logical implication would it?

But you are using the same type of logic to make assumptions about other people.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Ask your yourself what you would think if some one said to you “If you think Russia is right to invade Ukraine by implication you are supporting the mass deportation of children, the rape of women, the bombing of civilians, and widespread destruction of the environment.”

It wouldn’t be a logical implication would it?

But you are using the same type of logic to make assumptions about other people.

I never said it was right for Russia to invade Ukraine.
I just don't buy into the unprovoked invasion bullshit.
There was a coup in 2014 backed by the most aggressive military superpower in the world.
That superpower and it's vassal states in NATO have been drip feeding anti Russian propaganda in its media ever since.
The present President (the VP in 2014) is up to his neck in shady business dealings involving his son and brother in Ukraine).
NATO states have been training Ukrainian military covertly in the ensuing period and supplying arms to put down the unrest in the east of the country killing an estimated 14,000 civilians.
The previous German chancellor has admitted that the peace agreement thrashed out in Minsk was a sham and subterfuge allowing Ukraine to build its military capability presumably to pummel the Russian speakers in the east into submission.
Pretty good business for the Raytheon and Lockheed Martins of this world and wank bank material for the Neo-cons in DC.
Russia possibly had good Intel that the Ukrainians (including the Neo-nazi Azov battalion don't forget) were gearing up for a fresh offensive.
And so they acted.
The fact that the US intelligence seemed to be well aware of the troop build up prior suggests to me that they were in with the Ukrainian military on the possible offensive.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest given the rhetoric and statements I heard from Clinton and Brennan around that time.
My position has always been that negotiations are necessary.
I'm not sure I'd trust any of the NATO leaders if I was Putin though given what's happened in the last year between the rhetoric and the Nordstream sabotage.
Interesting now that Xi-Jinping is getting involved and the Western lapdogs are already trying to undermine his efforts by using distractions like the ICC nonsense.

[jackdaw]

I never said it was right for Russia to invade Ukraine.

So Russia were wrong to invade Ukraine?

[chrishornx]

So Russia were wrong to invade Ukraine?

Using this analysis:

If you disagree with my assessment you are by implication supporting the US.

one can assume if you never said it was right that Russia invaded Ukraine then by implication you must think it was wrong, surely?

[RedKettle]

This whole page is taken up by useless back and forth with M & B - and yes i know I am partly to blame for having a dig at him.  I have him on ignore so only see his words when he is quoted but it is still destroying the thread.

I suspect many members who have things to say have just given up on the thread.

We are never going to change his mind and very few are even listening to his nonsense - would it be possible just to ignore him and try and get some meaningful debate and discussion going.

Not trying to close down debate, very happy if we get some pro Russian views on here and some challenge to the West.  God knows we have done enough wrong, invasion of Iraq being one in my opinion.  But M&B is not debating and discussion with him adds nothing.  Given he thinks we are all gullible fools and morons I am not sure why he bothers being here anyway.

Just my view - not trying to be a wannabe mod!  Would just love some great debate and enlightenment on here.

Cheers     

[maxQ]

Not trying to close down debate, very happy if we get some pro Russian views on here and some challenge to the West. 

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Some interesting news you won't see on CNN

God knows we have done enough wrong, invasion of Iraq being one in my opinion.

But how long did it take you to figure out the Iraq invasion was wrong ?

And long before you see that the same people behind the Iraq invasion are also pushing war with Russia, and then war with Iran, and then war with......

[mills_and_bhuna]

So Russia were wrong to invade Ukraine?

Were The US wrong to plot a coup and install a puppet ?
Were the US wrong to fund and arm a government that was bombing and shelling it's own citizens?
Were the US wrong to sabotage the Nordstream pipeline?

[mills_and_bhuna]

This whole page is taken up by useless back and forth with M & B - and yes i know I am partly to blame for having a dig at him.  I have him on ignore so only see his words when he is quoted but it is still destroying the thread.

I suspect many members who have things to say have just given up on the thread.

We are never going to change his mind and very few are even listening to his nonsense - would it be possible just to ignore him and try and get some meaningful debate and discussion going.

Not trying to close down debate, very happy if we get some pro Russian views on here and some challenge to the West.  God knows we have done enough wrong, invasion of Iraq being one in my opinion.  But M&B is not debating and discussion with him adds nothing.  Given he thinks we are all gullible fools and morons I am not sure why he bothers being here anyway.

Just my view - not trying to be a wannabe mod!  Would just love some great debate and enlightenment on here.

Cheers   

what nonsense? Could you give me an example instead of asking loaded questions?

[mills_and_bhuna]

External Link/Members Only

Some interesting news you won't see on CNN


But how long did it take you to figure out the Iraq invasion was wrong ?

And long before you see that the same people behind the Iraq invasion are also pushing war with Russia, and then war with Iran, and then war with......

thanks for the link.
Interesting that this ICC nonsense has come up so we can remind ourselves what a charade this economic proxy war is .
The US under Bush signed into law a statute which reserves the right to use military force to 'rescue' American servicemen who come before the court.
I.e. Attack the Netherlands.
In 2018 under Trump they imposed sanctions on the court which were only repealed in 2021.
And Biden's administration is still committed to refusing to cooperate with the ICC especially in regard to any investigation into US or Israeli charges.
This seems to be a real case where the US regime is happy that most of its audience are ignorant.

[RedKettle]

But how long did it take you to figure out the Iraq invasion was wrong ?

And long before you see that the same people behind the Iraq invasion are also pushing war with Russia, and then war with Iran, and then war with......

I see you have the same arrogance as m and b and like him make assumptions about us.

If you had left that part out I would have clicked on the link but now you have just pissed me off. You might want to think about whether you want to influence the debate or like M and B just cause arguments.

I was on the protest so fuck off.

[jackdaw]

Were The US wrong to plot a coup and install a puppet ?
Were the US wrong to fund and arm a government that was bombing and shelling it's own citizens?
Were the US wrong to sabotage the Nordstream pipeline?

IF US did all that then yes they were wrong.

Russia DID invade Russia. Were they wrong to do so?

If you can’t simply answer that “yes” or “no”,  then I won’t trouble you again.

[chrishornx]

.
And Biden's administration is still committed to refusing to cooperate with the ICC especially in regard to any investigation into US or Israeli charges.
This seems to be a real case where the US regime is happy that most of its audience are ignorant.

just like Russia   both arseholes

[cunnyhunt]

Were the US wrong to sabotage the Nordstream pipeline?

Provide some credible evidence for this claim.

[mills_and_bhuna]

IF US did all that then yes they were wrong.

Russia DID invade Russia. Were they wrong to do so?

If you can’t simply answer that “yes” or “no”,  then I won’t trouble you again.

so if you accept all that then you surely must accept that Russia had valid concerns regarding its security

[mills_and_bhuna]

Provide some credible evidence for this claim.

would common sense be considered credible?
Or the on the record statements of US state officials including Old Man Biden himself.
I'd be willing to bet you're not so preoccupied with evidence when you're recycling the lies the mainstream media trot out.

[mills_and_bhuna]

I see you have the same arrogance as m and b and like him make assumptions about us.

If you had left that part out I would have clicked on the link but now you have just pissed me off. You might want to think about whether you want to influence the debate or like M and B just cause arguments.

I was on the protest so fuck off.

I know I'm going to be attacked for my attitude but considering no one seems to mind your aggressive hectoring and outright hostility to any opposing views I'll put that aside.
Anyone with half a brain would assume that you were okay with Iraq.
Only someone with the memory of a goldfish could have gone through the Iraq debacle, watched the key players pay no price for their action, be celebrated by the establishment and their crimes whitewashed, and then be so balls to the wall for their latest geopolitical scheme.

[cunnyhunt]

would common sense be considered credible?
Or the on the record statements of US state officials including Old Man Biden himself.
I'd be willing to bet you're not so preoccupied with evidence when you're recycling the lies the mainstream media trot out.

Common sense is not verifiable Credible evidence. You have made an assumption based on no evidence and from a biased position.
My family are in Finland and are seeing increasing numbers of young Russian men avoiding the draft, they are scared to return while Putin stays in power and talk of friends who have ‘disappeared’
 you talk of MSM ‘recycling lies’ but actually have no idea of what is going on in Russia only what you want to believe as it suits your anti US/MSM stance.

You sound like Stapler from years ago.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Common sense is not verifiable Credible evidence. You have made an assumption based on no evidence and from a biased position.
My family are in Finland and are seeing increasing numbers of young Russian men avoiding the draft, they are scared to return while Putin stays in power and talk of friends who have ‘disappeared’
 you talk of MSM ‘recycling lies’ but actually have no idea of what is going on in Russia only what you want to believe as it suits your anti US/MSM stance.

You sound like Stapler from years ago.

you must be telling the truth then.
You've heard from people who have friends who say so.
Seymour Hersh has a better record of telling the truth than the US Government or the UK government come to that.
His source clearly would be at risk if he came forward.
Just out of interest who do you think did it?

[cunnyhunt]

You've heard from people who have friends who say so.

Just out of interest who do you think did it?

I have a first hand account from close family that are seeing for themselves those of fighting age leaving Russia. Not quite the ‘people who have friends’ as you’ve suggested.
You are as far removed from the reality of the situation as anyone else but claim you’re the only one who can see the ‘real’ story.

As for who did it? who gains the most? Currently China and India as they’ve benefitted the most from Russian oil & gas, but unlikely to be them. And as much as you’d like it to be true it’s equally unlikely to be the US.
It has Putin all over it.

[RedKettle]

I have a first hand account from close family that are seeing for themselves those of fighting age leaving Russia. Not quite the ‘people who have friends’ as you’ve suggested.
You are as far removed from the reality of the situation as anyone else but claim you’re the only one who can see the ‘real’ story.

As for who did it? who gains the most? Currently China and India as they’ve benefitted the most from Russian oil & gas, but unlikely to be them. And as much as you’d like it to be true it’s equally unlikely to be the US.
It has Putin all over it.

Strange that he attaches so much importance to this act when there is uncertainty over who did it but glosses over the murder of people including children by Russian military and the wholesale destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure.

[mills_and_bhuna]

I have a first hand account from close family that are seeing for themselves those of fighting age leaving Russia. Not quite the ‘people who have friends’ as you’ve suggested.
You are as far removed from the reality of the situation as anyone else but claim you’re the only one who can see the ‘real’ story.

As for who did it? who gains the most? Currently China and India as they’ve benefitted the most from Russian oil & gas, but unlikely to be them. And as much as you’d like it to be true it’s equally unlikely to be the US.
It has Putin all over it.

why is it unlikely to be the US?
They are now selling liquefied gas to Europe for inflated prices.
They couldn't compete with Nordstream 2 so they blew it up.
I am of the opinion that if anyone seriously thinks Russia would have anything to gain from cutting off gas supplies by undertaking a risky operation in what is effectively a NATO lake when they could just keep the taps turned off is either stupid or brainwashed.
Take your pick.
Oh and did you see the video going around with Ukrainian recruiters bundling men of fighting age into vans?

[mills_and_bhuna]

Strange that he attaches so much importance to this act when there is uncertainty over who did it but glosses over the murder of people including children by Russian military and the wholesale destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure.

While you seem to gloss over the destruction of the Donbass for years.
As for uncertainty who did it give me a fucking break.
I'm just amazed you haven't been stupid enough to link the ridiculous story they tried to push of a 'pro-Ukraine group' who chartered a boat in Denmark but apparently left traces of explosives.
So obviously stupid that even the mainstream seemed hesitant.

[RedKettle]

Not the greatest fan of China but I wonder if they can actually help in brokering a deal and perhaps giving Putin a way out.  Tricky to see Ukraine agreeing to anything that involves giving up territory now there has been so much blood spent defending it.  Their 12 point plan has some sensible parts and they have not taken a position on Russia keeping territory.

[jackdaw]

Not the greatest fan of China but I wonder if they can actually help in brokering a deal and perhaps giving Putin a way out.  Tricky to see Ukraine agreeing to anything that involves giving up territory now there has been so much blood spent defending it.  Their 12 point plan has some sensible parts and they have not taken a position on Russia keeping territory.

The plan posits a ceasefire without Russia withdrawing, and an immediate cessation of all sanctions against Russia.

Is that really a neutral settlement between the two (Ukraine and Russia)?

I don’t think it is…because it palpably puts Russia in a far stronger position to keep the ceased territory. (In effect I think China have taken a position on Russia keeping territory…it’s there by inference, just not explicitly stated.)

[RandomGuy99]

Not the greatest fan of China but I wonder if they can actually help in brokering a deal and perhaps giving Putin a way out.  Tricky to see Ukraine agreeing to anything that involves giving up territory now there has been so much blood spent defending it.  Their 12 point plan has some sensible parts and they have not taken a position on Russia keeping territory.

Putin needs to find a way to save face and get out of Ukraine. The West isn't going to stop their support and it's become a war of attrition. Ukraine will then join NATO and Russia is surrounded NATO countries all with larger defence budgets being spent on kit to protect themselves. Russia and NATO are bound to have a run in again in the future. Maybe 8 years from now.

[Henry767]

Not the greatest fan of China but I wonder if they can actually help in brokering a deal and perhaps giving Putin a way out.  Tricky to see Ukraine agreeing to anything that involves giving up territory now there has been so much blood spent defending it.  Their 12 point plan has some sensible parts and they have not taken a position on Russia keeping territory.

Those who want to prolong the war to deplete Russia saw that plan coming, hence 3 recent actions. 1. The ICC arraignment of Putin on a ground that even the BBC described as 'dusted off' it was so unusual. 2. The announcement by the EU of 1 million artillery shells for Kiev in the next year. 3. A ' sudden' visit to Zelenski by the Japanese prime minister - A show of support, but with the added poke at China considering the awful Japanese war crimes against the chinese. I believe these are part of what political observers call the Optics. It tells Zelenski, and the world at large, that unlike Sakashvili in Georgia ( after his belief in unbridled US support had caused him to invade his neighbour and get dropped like a hot potato) he can continue to act as he pleases. That means that his demand for complete Russian withdrawal from all territories including Crimea before any peace talks will be supported. And that means any chinese peace proposal that may be acceptable to Putin is dead in the water

[mills_and_bhuna]

The plan posits a ceasefire without Russia withdrawing, and an immediate cessation of all sanctions against Russia.

Is that really a neutral settlement between the two (Ukraine and Russia)?

I don’t think it is…because it palpably puts Russia in a far stronger position to keep the ceased territory. (In effect I think China have taken a position on Russia keeping territory…it’s there by inference, just not explicitly stated.)

Why should it be a neutral settlement?
Russia has protected the Russian speaking inhabitants from being terrorised by Neo-nazis and they're unlikely to hand it back so it can start up again.
They can forget about Crimea .
The population there don't want to be part of Ukraine and especially not a rabidly Russophobic one.
The idea that Putin is going to want to occupy the Western area of Ukraine is quite frankly ridiculous.
And as for him attacking Poland , etc. I'm struggling to find a suitable word for that shite. Ludicrous doesn't do it justice.
No surprise that the US is dead set against a ceasefire.
After all no Americans were sent home in bodybags. It's the new business model

[RedKettle]

The plan posits a ceasefire without Russia withdrawing, and an immediate cessation of all sanctions against Russia.

Is that really a neutral settlement between the two (Ukraine and Russia)?

I don’t think it is…because it palpably puts Russia in a far stronger position to keep the ceased territory. (In effect I think China have taken a position on Russia keeping territory…it’s there by inference, just not explicitly stated.)

I agree that as stated unlikely to work. But I hope, without much belief , that perhaps China can in some way be a catalyst to get to negotiations. Hardly an honest broker but perhaps a dodgy middleman!

[RedKettle]

Those who want to prolong the war to deplete Russia saw that plan coming, hence 3 recent actions. 1. The ICC arraignment of Putin on a ground that even the BBC described as 'dusted off' it was so unusual. 2. The announcement by the EU of 1 million artillery shells for Kiev in the next year. 3. A ' sudden' visit to Zelenski by the Japanese prime minister - A show of support, but with the added poke at China considering the awful Japanese war crimes against the chinese. I believe these are part of what political observers call the Optics. It tells Zelenski, and the world at large, that unlike Sakashvili in Georgia ( after his belief in unbridled US support had caused him to invade his neighbour and get dropped like a hot potato) he can continue to act as he pleases. That means that his demand for complete Russian withdrawal from all territories including Crimea before any peace talks will be supported. And that means any chinese peace proposal that may be acceptable to Putin is dead in the water

I feel that Crimea may be part of a compromise. Under cover of not being an advantage gained from this illegal invasion.

[Blackpool Rock]

I agree that as stated unlikely to work. But I hope, without much belief , that perhaps China can in some way be a catalyst to get to negotiations. Hardly an honest broker but perhaps a dodgy middleman!

It's as dodgy as dealing with the mafia 

[mills_and_bhuna]

It's as dodgy as dealing with the mafia 

but still less dodgy than dealing with the Biden regime. And considerably so

[webpunter]

External Link/Members Only

Russia mocked over Steven Seagal 'training soldiers'
A report circulating in recent days says action movie star Steven Seagal - who has a longstanding and public admiration of Vladimir Putin - has opened a new aikido centre in Moscow with "the intention of preparing young Russians to join the Russian armed forces".

The story has prompted ridicule from Ukraine's armed forces, whose official Twitter account joked that the Under Siege actor's training would include teaching would-be soldiers how to "run away from their positions with weird hand motions".

Puty Boy must be desperate
Support from a person of standing like Seagal is the best he can come up with
Wowza 

Surprised that Puty Boy didnt ask Seagal to accompany him on his recent trip to Ukraine
I doubt if the deluded fucktard Seagal would even realise it wasnt him 

As for Seagal preparing young [& impressionable] russians ...... [for a high chance of death or serious injury] what an utter cunt he is

[mills_and_bhuna]

External Link/Members Only

Russia mocked over Steven Seagal 'training soldiers'
A report circulating in recent days says action movie star Steven Seagal - who has a longstanding and public admiration of Vladimir Putin - has opened a new aikido centre in Moscow with "the intention of preparing young Russians to join the Russian armed forces".

The story has prompted ridicule from Ukraine's armed forces, whose official Twitter account joked that the Under Siege actor's training would include teaching would-be soldiers how to "run away from their positions with weird hand motions".

Puty Boy must be desperate
Support from a person of standing like Seagal is the best he can come up with
Wowza 

Surprised that Puty Boy didnt ask Seagal to accompany him on his recent trip to Ukraine
I doubt if the deluded fucktard Seagal would even realise it wasnt him 

As for Seagal preparing young [& impressionable] russians ...... [for a high chance of death or serious injury] what an utter cunt he is

I have to laugh when Red Kettle cries about the thread being spoiled by people having alternative viewpoints  but has no problem with this unadulterated garbage.
I thought they were dredging the bottom of the barrel when they were recycling the ICC story without realising the rank hypocrisy but this is twilight zone propaganda par excellence

[RedKettle]

I have to laugh when Red Kettle cries about the thread being spoiled by people having alternative viewpoints

I never said that, in fact i carefully made the opposite point.  I think it is you spoiling the thread and making shit up is one of many reasons why.

Going back to ignoring you now 

[mills_and_bhuna]

I never said that, in fact i carefully made the opposite point.  I think it is you spoiling the thread and making shit up is one of many reasons why.

Going back to ignoring you now 

boohoo! If there's one thing that makes you stand out as a man of integrity who's open to opposing views it's a public ignoring ceremony or declaration

[maxQ]

rank hypocrisy but this is twilight zone propaganda par excellence

They absolutetly love the Steven Seagal type stories, can't get enough of that obvious BS, they lap it up

Can't tell the difference between the signal and the noise 

[RedKettle]

They absolutetly love the Steven Seagal type stories, can't get enough of that obvious BS, they lap it up

Can't tell the difference between the signal and the noise

Is it a true story? Sounds made up